Why Tiefling Paragons but not Aasimar? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Why Tiefling Paragons but not Aasimar? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AstralFire
02-29-04, 12:25 PM Just borrowed my friend's copy... that's somewhat strange. o_O It's like having Half-Fiend without Half-Celestial.
darkkender
02-29-04, 12:28 PM I would guess that instead of filling it up with paragon's for all the planetouched they chose one of them and you can use it as a guide to make the aasimar, being as how they are basically direct opposites and all. That and I think most people think tieflings are cooler.
Aramas
02-29-04, 01:05 PM If you were to make an Aasimar paragon class... which stat would get the boost?
darkkender
02-29-04, 01:22 PM either wisdom or charisma, though I would lean so heavily towards wisdom that the scales would fall sideways since tieflings emphasize dex and rogue is prefered class and aasimars prefered class is paladin which takes most advantage of wisdom seconded by charisma.
riceisnice
02-29-04, 03:04 PM I think Charisma's more important to the paladin, it affects their class abilities more. Well, except spells, but they're not primarily spellcasters. It'd boost smite and lay on hands, which are pretty key to the idea, and I think really fitting for an aasimar paladin.
darkkender
02-29-04, 06:13 PM thats part of why it is a toss up too a certain degree one could use similiar arguments for the tiefling rogue factor. The fact is the rogue is cut and dried dex even though int drives more skill points which the rogue also uses, now where am I going with this you ask well tieflings get a +2 dex and +2 int bonus for the base race, for the paragon they exemplified the tieflings natural agility. Now onto the Aasimar the problem with this one comes from his ability score bonuses for the race are +2 wis and +2 cha, both heavily used by clerics and paladins, also the aasimar bonuses both apply to a mental/social ability score as compared to a physical ability score which when dealing with mental abilities the lines get kinda blurred, add to the compounded nature of the Paladin which blurs together so many different aspects of physical and mental and it becomes harder. The reason I tipped the scales towards wisdom is more of a role-playing aspect and how the class is exemplified as the brave, noble and Wise type of character class, that and couple that with the aasimars celestial bloodline that above all else celestials seem to be a pinacle of wisdom and thought even if they are beutiful to behold they still tend to be wise.
Quithion
03-01-04, 10:05 AM Aasimar Paragons

I think you would allow a choice. For example +2 to wis or +2 to cha players choice.

The reason why i suggest this is becuase aasimar are often paladins ( favored vlass) but derrived from celestials.

Those more dedicated to the path of fiath would gain +2 wis.

Those imbued with divine presence and grace would get charisma.

Make sense ?

Also i think i would allow the Paragon levels to stack with Divine Spellcaster levels .

I would Call this Ability Divine Blood.

I dont have my UA with me , its in my car. I will check at lunch. and edit the post
darkkender
03-01-04, 12:06 PM that could work.
Count Arioch the 28th
03-01-04, 12:26 PM I would say that it should be +2 to charisma, since wisdom is'nt that vital to paladins, all you need is 14, whereas you need an extra high charisma as a pally.

That's my opinion.
Quithion
03-01-04, 12:31 PM I also think that at second level they should gain Light 3 times daily at second level.

So

lvl1 Divine Blood
lvl2 Light 3x/day / Double racial skill bonuses
lvl3 Enhanced Divinity ( +2 cha or +2wis )

Saves; As paladin ( since this is there favored class)

Regular assimar also got this

+5 to Acid, Cold, and Electrical Resistances
+2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks

So I think the other lvl2 ability is well founded. tell me what you think.

Edited for bad spelling:sad:
Ulden Throatbane
03-01-04, 12:31 PM Also, aasimar paragon class should be allowed to multiclass freely with the paladin class.
Quithion
03-01-04, 12:52 PM do you perhaps mean a Paladin can freely multiclass with this class ?
WotC_Andy
03-01-04, 04:17 PM In addition to the PH base races, we included a few races that we felt were flavorful and interesting, particularly as "villains." Hence orcs, drow, tieflings, and half-dragons.

We didn't even try to include everything that we could think of--there's no goblin paragon in there, for example--at some point, we just had to move on to the next topic.

I'd probably give aasimar full BAB, all good saves, improved resistance (acid, cold, or electricity) at 1st, daylight 3/day and another +2 on Spot/Listen at 2nd, and a Cha boost at 3rd level.

That's basically identical to the tiefling's progression, except for the better BAB (I think Dex is better than Cha, so it seems fair to me). The BAB matches their martial nature. It's OK for the LA +1 or better races to have a more potent paragon class, as noted in the sidebar on p. 46.

I'd also allow free multiclassing with paladin (honestly, I think that all the paragon classes shouldn't ever trigger penalties for multiclassing, even with monk or paladin, but I have only myself to blame for that not being in there).
TrueExodite
03-01-04, 07:45 PM Originally posted by WotC_Andy
I think Dex is better than Cha, so it seems fair to me.

I'd say that since the utility of any single stat is based on class and concept rather than any inherent strength that's not quite true.

After all, a Rogue need Dexterity but a Cleric or Paladin does not.

Anyway, that's just me disagreeing - I do that a lot. :)

I really like the paragon classes in general though, it seems like a great flavor addition for any character.

Had I designed them myself I would probably adapt them closer to the racial HD of the type.

For example, Dwarves get d10s and Drow d6.

Since both are humanoids I'd go with d8 and medium BAB across the board and balance the rest slong proficiencies, abilities and spellcasting.

The same way it would make sense, to me, that a Aasimar and Tiefling both would get good BAB, d8 hd and all good saves.

I probably wouldn't give them the 8 skill points per level of outsiders though. :)

Not that I see any balance considerations with the current system, I'd just be a bit more neat and consistent IMHO.

FWIW I tend to be very critical about WoTC products, I hold them to a higher standard than d20 in general, but from what I've heard and read about UA I must have this book.

I've gotten a riot of ideas and thoughts, some not in any way related to any material in the book, just from reading about it.

Unfortunatley, I guess it's still some weeks off as it seems even mail order shops get WoTC books about a month after the street date. *sigh*

I guess this is my, very OT, way of saying thanks for what is already the second best D&D product IMHO - even before having it in hand.
monk-ki
03-02-04, 01:38 AM What would everybody do for a Fey'ri paragon? Similar to a Tiefling, including dexterity? I know that the favored class for Fey'ri is sorcerer, but they get no bonuses to charisma (So why would it be a favored class? I think it should be rogue). Comments, anyone?
darkkender
03-02-04, 01:22 PM First great big High 5 to Mr Andy Collins for making an appearance with us here, to feed our creative, glutonous behavior and taking one of his products to the next level. :smirk:

Second scowl upon those who would scrutinize an Author taking time out of his busy day. :mad:

Third to the Fay'ri request I would say that Int is where they should get there boost. While it's true sorcerer is favored class(due to their demonic bloodline and the type of magical training they get pushes them to develop as sorc's instead of wizards.) The reason I boost Int is because of their sun elf bloodline making them naturally intelligent and smart. You could make a good argument for Dex due to the prefered prestige classes including assasin and arcane archer. But I would still say Int is where it should go to.:teach:
monk-ki
03-03-04, 01:56 AM OOhhhh! Very good point! Now that you say so, I'd have to agree. Thanks to you!

And I agree with you. I was reading this thread earlier, and was surprised and happy to see Mr. Collins's name showing there. Thank you Mr. Collins. If you happen to be by here again, could you do a semi-official take on the Fey'ri paragon, please?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AstralFire 02-29-04, 12:25 PM	Just borrowed my friend's copy... that's somewhat strange. o_O It's like having Half-Fiend without Half-Celestial.
darkkender 02-29-04, 12:28 PM	I would guess that instead of filling it up with paragon's for all the planetouched they chose one of them and you can use it as a guide to make the aasimar, being as how they are basically direct opposites and all. That and I think most people think tieflings are cooler.
Aramas 02-29-04, 01:05 PM	If you were to make an Aasimar paragon class... which stat would get the boost?
darkkender 02-29-04, 01:22 PM	either wisdom or charisma, though I would lean so heavily towards wisdom that the scales would fall sideways since tieflings emphasize dex and rogue is prefered class and aasimars prefered class is paladin which takes most advantage of wisdom seconded by charisma.
riceisnice 02-29-04, 03:04 PM	I think Charisma's more important to the paladin, it affects their class abilities more. Well, except spells, but they're not primarily spellcasters. It'd boost smite and lay on hands, which are pretty key to the idea, and I think really fitting for an aasimar paladin.
darkkender 02-29-04, 06:13 PM	thats part of why it is a toss up too a certain degree one could use similiar arguments for the tiefling rogue factor. The fact is the rogue is cut and dried dex even though int drives more skill points which the rogue also uses, now where am I going with this you ask well tieflings get a +2 dex and +2 int bonus for the base race, for the paragon they exemplified the tieflings natural agility. Now onto the Aasimar the problem with this one comes from his ability score bonuses for the race are +2 wis and +2 cha, both heavily used by clerics and paladins, also the aasimar bonuses both apply to a mental/social ability score as compared to a physical ability score which when dealing with mental abilities the lines get kinda blurred, add to the compounded nature of the Paladin which blurs together so many different aspects of physical and mental and it becomes harder. The reason I tipped the scales towards wisdom is more of a role-playing aspect and how the class is exemplified as the brave, noble and Wise type of character class, that and couple that with the aasimars celestial bloodline that above all else celestials seem to be a pinacle of wisdom and thought even if they are beutiful to behold they still tend to be wise.
Quithion 03-01-04, 10:05 AM	Aasimar Paragons I think you would allow a choice. For example +2 to wis or +2 to cha players choice. The reason why i suggest this is becuase aasimar are often paladins ( favored vlass) but derrived from celestials. Those more dedicated to the path of fiath would gain +2 wis. Those imbued with divine presence and grace would get charisma. Make sense ? Also i think i would allow the Paragon levels to stack with Divine Spellcaster levels . I would Call this Ability Divine Blood. I dont have my UA with me , its in my car. I will check at lunch. and edit the post
darkkender 03-01-04, 12:06 PM	that could work.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-01-04, 12:26 PM	I would say that it should be +2 to charisma, since wisdom is'nt that vital to paladins, all you need is 14, whereas you need an extra high charisma as a pally. That's my opinion.
Quithion 03-01-04, 12:31 PM	I also think that at second level they should gain Light 3 times daily at second level. So lvl1 Divine Blood lvl2 Light 3x/day / Double racial skill bonuses lvl3 Enhanced Divinity ( +2 cha or +2wis ) Saves; As paladin ( since this is there favored class) Regular assimar also got this +5 to Acid, Cold, and Electrical Resistances +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks So I think the other lvl2 ability is well founded. tell me what you think. Edited for bad spelling:sad:
Ulden Throatbane 03-01-04, 12:31 PM	Also, aasimar paragon class should be allowed to multiclass freely with the paladin class.
Quithion 03-01-04, 12:52 PM	do you perhaps mean a Paladin can freely multiclass with this class ?
WotC_Andy 03-01-04, 04:17 PM	In addition to the PH base races, we included a few races that we felt were flavorful and interesting, particularly as "villains." Hence orcs, drow, tieflings, and half-dragons. We didn't even try to include everything that we could think of--there's no goblin paragon in there, for example--at some point, we just had to move on to the next topic. I'd probably give aasimar full BAB, all good saves, improved resistance (acid, cold, or electricity) at 1st, daylight 3/day and another +2 on Spot/Listen at 2nd, and a Cha boost at 3rd level. That's basically identical to the tiefling's progression, except for the better BAB (I think Dex is better than Cha, so it seems fair to me). The BAB matches their martial nature. It's OK for the LA +1 or better races to have a more potent paragon class, as noted in the sidebar on p. 46. I'd also allow free multiclassing with paladin (honestly, I think that all the paragon classes shouldn't ever trigger penalties for multiclassing, even with monk or paladin, but I have only myself to blame for that not being in there).
TrueExodite 03-01-04, 07:45 PM	Originally posted by WotC_Andy I think Dex is better than Cha, so it seems fair to me. I'd say that since the utility of any single stat is based on class and concept rather than any inherent strength that's not quite true. After all, a Rogue need Dexterity but a Cleric or Paladin does not. Anyway, that's just me disagreeing - I do that a lot. :) I really like the paragon classes in general though, it seems like a great flavor addition for any character. Had I designed them myself I would probably adapt them closer to the racial HD of the type. For example, Dwarves get d10s and Drow d6. Since both are humanoids I'd go with d8 and medium BAB across the board and balance the rest slong proficiencies, abilities and spellcasting. The same way it would make sense, to me, that a Aasimar and Tiefling both would get good BAB, d8 hd and all good saves. I probably wouldn't give them the 8 skill points per level of outsiders though. :) Not that I see any balance considerations with the current system, I'd just be a bit more neat and consistent IMHO. FWIW I tend to be very critical about WoTC products, I hold them to a higher standard than d20 in general, but from what I've heard and read about UA I must have this book. I've gotten a riot of ideas and thoughts, some not in any way related to any material in the book, just from reading about it. Unfortunatley, I guess it's still some weeks off as it seems even mail order shops get WoTC books about a month after the street date. sigh I guess this is my, very OT, way of saying thanks for what is already the second best D&D product IMHO - even before having it in hand.
monk-ki 03-02-04, 01:38 AM	What would everybody do for a Fey'ri paragon? Similar to a Tiefling, including dexterity? I know that the favored class for Fey'ri is sorcerer, but they get no bonuses to charisma (So why would it be a favored class? I think it should be rogue). Comments, anyone?
darkkender 03-02-04, 01:22 PM	First great big High 5 to Mr Andy Collins for making an appearance with us here, to feed our creative, glutonous behavior and taking one of his products to the next level. :smirk: Second scowl upon those who would scrutinize an Author taking time out of his busy day. :mad: Third to the Fay'ri request I would say that Int is where they should get there boost. While it's true sorcerer is favored class(due to their demonic bloodline and the type of magical training they get pushes them to develop as sorc's instead of wizards.) The reason I boost Int is because of their sun elf bloodline making them naturally intelligent and smart. You could make a good argument for Dex due to the prefered prestige classes including assasin and arcane archer. But I would still say Int is where it should go to.:teach:
monk-ki 03-03-04, 01:56 AM	OOhhhh! Very good point! Now that you say so, I'd have to agree. Thanks to you! And I agree with you. I was reading this thread earlier, and was surprised and happy to see Mr. Collins's name showing there. Thank you Mr. Collins. If you happen to be by here again, could you do a semi-official take on the Fey'ri paragon, please?