Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Devil Gnasher 05-07-07, 07:33 PM	To me wizards should be the scientests of the D&D game. They represent knowledge, insight and a fundemental unerstanding of the world around them. So why don't they get more than two skill points and why aren't their spells dependant on scientific skills? This should include such fields as biology and geology. This is my humble proposal and in addition to the standard eight schools of magic. This would require raising the skill points to either four or six. So, is this a good idea or not? This will also devide Knowledge (Nature) in to three skills, Knowledge (Geology), Knowledge (Meteorology) and Knowledge (Organic Studies). Please note that this is not for all campaign settings. Cold-based spells Knowledge (Chemistry) Example spells: Wall of Ice and Cone of Cold. Fire-based spells Knowledge (Chemistry) Example spells: Fireball, Burning Hands, Wall of Fire and Meteor Swarm. Light-based spells Knowledge (Optics) Example spells: Dancing Lights, Light and Prismatic Spray. Sound-based spells Knowledge (Acoustics) Example spells: Shatter, Shout and Ghost Sounds. Gravity-based spells Knowledge (Dynamics) Example spells: Levitate, Fly, Overland Flight and Reverse Gravity. Electrical spells Knowledge (Electrodynamics) Example spells: Shocking Grasp and Lightning Bolt. Mind affecting spells Knowledge (Psychology) Example spells: Charm Person and Dominate Person. Weather-based spells Knowledge (Meteorology) Example spells: Wall of Wind. Optical illusions Knowledge (Optics) Example spells: Invisibility and Minor Image. Shadow Knowledge (Optics) Example spells: Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation. Summoning and teleporting spells Knowledge (Astrophysics) Example spells: All Summon Monster spells, Gate and Mount. Other conjuration spells Knowledge (Molecular Physics) Example spells: Wall of Iron, Fabricate and Genesis (that and Knowledge (Astrophysics). Divination Knowledge (Chaos Theory) Example spells: Detect Magic, Detect Alignment (any) and True Seeing. Physical alteration spells Knowledge (Molecular Physics) Example spells: The Polymorph spells and Flesh to Stone. Abjuration Knowledge (Dynamics). Necromancy Knowledge (Biology) Example spells: Deathwatch (if made arcane as well) and Minor Medicinal Aliment. They would need to make casting checks with the following formula with the appropriate skill above. Spell Tier DC 0-3rd 5+levelx2 4th-6th 10+levelx2 7th-9th 15+levelx2 10th-12th 20+levelx2 13th-15th 25+levelx2 16th-18th 30+levelx2 For a level by level breakdown, see below. Spell Level DC 0 5 1st 7 2nd 9 3rd 11 4th 18 5th 20 6th 22 7th 29 8th 31 9th 33 10th 40 11th 42 12th 44 13th 51 14th 53 15th 55 16th 62 17th 64 18th 66 Spell Level Minimum Ranks 0 1 1st 2 2nd 3 3rd 5 4th 6 5th 8 6th 9 7th 11 8th 12 9th 14 10th 15 11th 17 12th 18 13th 20 14th 21 15th 23 16th 24 17th 26 18th 27 Every five ranks above the minimum rank of the spell counts as a spell level increase for the purpose of metamagic but for that casting only and only using metamagic feats the wizard knows. This is in addition to minimum caster level. Also the spell's base level and metamagic adjustments combined can not be higher than the wizard's maximum spell level. Do any of you think these are good ideas? Shoud I have even brought this up in this place?
Raiden Drake 05-07-07, 08:02 PM	To me wizards should be the scientests of the D&D game. They represent knowledge, insight and a fundemental unerstanding of the world around them. So why don't they get more than two skill points and why aren't their spells dependant on scientific skills, maybe biology. This is my humble proposal. This is in addition to the standard schools of magic. This would require raising the skill points to either four or six. So, is this a good idea or not? Cold-based spells Knowledge (Cryogenics) Example spells: Wall of Ice and Cone of Cold. Fire-based spells Knowledge (Thermodynamics) Example spells: Fireball, Burning Hands, Wall of Fire and Meteor Swarm. Light-based spells Knowledge (Optics) Example spells: Dancing Lights, Light and Prismatic Spray. Sound-based spells Knowledge (Acoustics) Example spells: Shatter, Shout and Ghost Sounds. Gravity-based spells Knowledge (Mechanics) Example spells: Levitate, Fly, Overland Flight and Reverse Gravity. Electrical spells Knowledge (Electrodynamics) Example spells: Shocking Grasp and Lightning Bolt. Mind affecting spells Knowledge (Psychology) Example spells: Charm Person and Dominate Person. Weather-based spells Knowledge (Geophysics) Example spells: Wall of Wind. Optical illusions Knowledge (Optics) Example spells: Invisibility and Minor Image. Shadow Knowledge (Optics) Example spells: Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation. Summoning and teleporting spells Knowledge (Astrophysics) Example spells: All Summon Monster spells, Gate and Mount. Other conjuration spells Knowledge (Molecular physics) Example spells: Wall of Iron, Fabricate and Genesis (that and Knowledge (Astrophysics)). Divination Scry, Knowledge (Electrodynamics) and Knowledge (Optics) Knowledge (Any science) Example spells: Detect Magic, Detect Alignment (any) and True Seeing. Physical alteration spells Knowledge (Molecular physics) Example spells: The Polymorph spells and Flesh to Stone. Abjuration For banishing spells, Knowledge (Astrophysics). For defensive spells try Knowledge (Kinetics). Necromancy Knowledge (Organic chemistry) for Neutralize Poison, Poison and undead related spells (unless the undead are caused by a disease). Knowledge (Biology) for everthing else including most healing and all Origin of Species spells. First of all, wizards may know that if u take some guano and say a magic word you get a fireball but they really don't know where does magic come from. But thats just flavor so it can be change.... Second, what would be the use of this knowledge skills? I think if just over complicate the skill system. Third, thermodynamics should apply to both "cold" spells and "hot" spells... and the laws of thermidynamics that we know, do not apply to D&D, where: you can win, you can draw, and u can even get out of the game...
Devil Gnasher 05-07-07, 11:28 PM	Second, what would be the use of this knowledge skills? I think if just over complicate the skill system. To add risk to wizarding spellcasting and to allow for more general Knowledge checks. This is also for diferention between the roles of the wizard and sorcerer. One is Paracelsus or Isaac Newton with magical powers the other is Prospero or Baba Yaga. One is scientific the other is innate or otherwise supernatural. Third, thermodynamics should apply to both "cold" spells and "hot" spells... Okay, I'll agree with you on this one. I'll make the nescisary changes. and the laws of thermidynamics that we know, do not apply to D&D, where: you can win, you can draw, and u can even get out of the game... This makes no sense. Please explain.
Optimized_Commoner 05-08-07, 01:05 AM	To add risk to wizarding spellcasting and to allow for more general Knowledge checks. This is also for diferention between the roles of the wizard and sorcerer. One is Paracelsus or Isaac Newton with magical powers the other is Prospero or Baba Yaga. One is scientific the other is innate or otherwise supernatural. I believe he was asking not for a motivation, but how this change would influence the game mechanics. For example, what difference will having a high cryogenics skill make to a mage casting cone of cold? Do more damage, raise caster level, what? This makes no sense. Please explain. He was parodying a popularization of Newton's three laws of thermodynamics. Someone once simplified them to "you can't win", "you can't break even" and "you can't even get out of the game". It's funny if you're a physics geek (guilty as charged).
Devil Gnasher 05-08-07, 02:03 AM	I believe he was asking not for a motivation, but how this change would influence the game mechanics. For example, what difference will having a high cryogenics skill make to a mage casting cone of cold? Do more damage, raise caster level, what? It’s simple. Your cryogenics or thermodynamics skill+Intelligence bonus is added to a d20 for casting checks. Basically casting checks are skill checks that result in a cast spell if successful. The DC is equal to 5+(spell levelx2) for 0 to 3rd level spells. The DC base is increased by 5 every three levels. This means that to successfully cast an 18th level spell a wizard would have to pass a DC of 66 to cast. This would require a roll of eighteen or more to pass if the wizard had maxed out the related skill and if he or she was at level 36. Note that this is for wizards only. This is also barring all temporary ability increasing items or skill related feats. He was parodying a popularization of Newton's three laws of thermodynamics. Someone once simplified them to "you can't win", "you can't break even" and "you can't even get out of the game". It's funny if you're a physics geek (guilty as charged). Okay, that explains things. Thank you.
JulesCARV 05-08-07, 02:57 AM	Never mind.
Devil Gnasher 05-11-07, 06:20 PM	Never mind. What do you mean never mind? If you have an idea or criticism just post it. I can take it.
JulesCARV 05-11-07, 06:34 PM	I had several windows open, and I accidentally wrote a brilliant, erudite, and well-conceived reply to your thread which was appropriate to a completely seperate thread, realized what I had done, then went back and edited it and wrote "never mind," putting my reply in the right thread. If you want my opinion, though, I think that scientific knowledge should fall under existing knowledge skills, such as knowledge (nature), knowledge (architecture and engineering), and, in some cases, knowledge (geography). Adding more knowledge skill dilutes the value of existing ones.
Devil Gnasher 05-11-07, 08:28 PM	I had several windows open, and I accidentally wrote a brilliant, erudite, and well-conceived reply to your thread which was appropriate to a completely seperate thread, realized what I had done, then went back and edited it and wrote "never mind," putting my reply in the right thread. If you want my opinion, though, I think that scientific knowledge should fall under existing knowledge skills, such as knowledge (nature), knowledge (architecture and engineering), and, in some cases, knowledge (geography). Adding more knowledge skill dilutes the value of existing ones. Okay, I'll change that. Thank you good sir.
stargate525 05-12-07, 12:06 PM	I wouldn't raise the wizard's class skills too much; their base casting stat is intelligence, so they end up getting a rather large amount of skill points anyhow.
Devil Gnasher 05-12-07, 07:51 PM	Okay, I'll just give wizard 4+int bonus skill point per level. It's not too much really, right?
stargate525 05-12-07, 08:45 PM	Okay, I'll just give wizard 4+int bonus skill point per level. It's not too much really, right? agreed. make sure he has something to spend it on though.
Devil Gnasher 05-12-07, 08:53 PM	agreed. make sure he has something to spend it on though. Didn't I just do that in the first post?
stargate525 05-12-07, 10:57 PM	Didn't I just do that in the first post? ...er...:blush: Don't bother me with facts...
Devil Gnasher 05-31-07, 03:51 PM	Does any one else want to comment on this idea? Any suggestions for additional skills to be applied would be welcome.
LadyAlaria 05-31-07, 04:51 PM	To me wizards should be the scientests of the D&D game. They represent knowledge, insight and a fundemental unerstanding of the world around them. So why don't they get more than two skill points and why aren't their spells dependant on scientific skills, maybe biology. This is my humble proposal. This is in addition to the standard schools of magic. This would require raising the skill points to either four or six. So, is this a good idea or not? Some players will get into this, some won't. It adds a bunch of record-keeping which I wouldn't care to impose on my players. The 2sp/lvl is for two reasons - game balance and fluff. The fluff is that wizards obviously spend all their time in the lab and thus have no time to practice picking locks and climbing ropes. The balance is important - with their high Ints Wizards get plenty of skill points already. I wouldn't mess with that. I recommend making this an entirely optional mechanic, and instead of using skill points, give special "science mastery" points to spend on these areas. Then, since this system only IMPROVES wizards, you need to come up with some compensating disadvantage, such as taking away some spell schools.
Rhialto 05-31-07, 04:56 PM	None of those science skills look likely to be used in a typical fantasy game. As such, they are little more than a book-keeping exercise aimed at weakening wizard progression. Not so fun I think.
Devil Gnasher 05-31-07, 05:15 PM	None of those science skills look likely to be used in a typical fantasy game. As such, they are little more than a book-keeping exercise aimed at weakening wizard progression. Not so fun I think. This isn't for typical fantasy campaigns. In fact because of their scientific or psudo-scientific nature wizards aren't fit for "typical fantasy" campaigns. I see wizards as arcane scientists, which would pretty much keep them out of most fantasy campaigns in my opinion. I'm not interested in "typical fantasy" campagns.
Rhialto 05-31-07, 06:39 PM	Well, depending on how your want wizards to behave im your campaign, those skilsl could be useful I guess. I'm just saying, i don't know of any major commercial campaign world where wizards could reaosnably expect to get major use out of this skills as PCs.
smorgasbord_of_pie 05-31-07, 07:48 PM	I'm not sure if I understand. Would these skills be neccesary to cast the appropriate spells, or would you use them to advance the spells you use them for? If the latter, perhaps you could use them to replace metemagic? Like the idea, unsure of the mechanics.
Devil Gnasher 05-31-07, 08:35 PM	I'm not sure if I understand. Would these skills be neccesary to cast the appropriate spells, or would you use them to advance the spells you use them for? If the latter, perhaps you could use them to replace metemagic? Like the idea, unsure of the mechanics. I'd say a little bit of both. They would need to make a casting check with the following formula. Level DC 0-3rd 5+spell levelx2 4th-6th 10+spell levelx2 7th-9th 15+spell levelx2 10th-12th 20+spell levelx2 13th-15th 25+spell levelx2 16th-18th 30+spell levelx2 Every five points rolled above the DC of the spell counts as a spell level increase for the purpose of metamagic but for that casting only.
Devil Gnasher 05-31-07, 08:44 PM	Well, depending on how your want wizards to behave im your campaign, those skilsl could be useful I guess. I'm just saying, i don't know of any major commercial campaign world where wizards could reaosnably expect to get major use out of this skills as PCs. I'm trying to make a campaign like that. Also the standard races that produce the most necromancers are hags, gnolls, orcs, ogres (Good aligned ones) and elves. And yes, elves are still usually Chaotic Good and are still divided into wood, gray and high elves, for the Occidentals.
Malcadon 05-31-07, 10:55 PM	That sound like a cool idea. Mongoose Publishing did something like that with their Conan RPG [d20] line. In that system, they cut spells in to 'Sorcery Styles' and spells have prerequisites in the form of a basic spell (for each style), skills (plus rank), and other spells. Its a lot like feats or a talent tree. To learn most spells you need to know Knowledge (arcana). For Nature Magic, is Knowledge (nature) and for Prestidigitation (telekinesis, animate stuff, and other odds and ends) its Slight of Hand. To summon elements, you need to know Preform (song or any musical instrument) to call them (drums for water, song or pipes for air, stringed instruments for fire and horns for earth). (how colorful) The class that cast cast spell in this version (the Scholar) can handle this as they get (8+int) Skill Points per level, and 3 point MUST be spent on Knowledge. Yes, Slight of Hand is their class skill. This is a cool system, but is vary hard (and tricky) to work in a D&D styled world as it set in the low magic world of Hyboria (but is works well for the Darksun world). That is, you will not find flashy attack spells like Magic Missile or Fireball (unless you count telekinetically riping a man's heart out of his chest!:mymy:), nor will you find any healing spells. I personalty like and use this system as you don't need a spell to read your own spells, and having Decipher Script a class skill for spell-users is vary useful. You do not need a feat to write on a scroll. Spell-craft is folded into Knowledge (arcana). Any you can even play as a Scholar without EVER learning ANY spell (you get extra Skill Points for spells instead)! Note: The Scholar class is vary general and can be used (with the use of magic background) to play any type of spell-caster like wizards, clerics, bards and so on.
Raiden Drake 06-01-07, 02:54 AM	This isn't for typical fantasy campaigns. In fact because of their scientific or psudo-scientific nature wizards aren't fit for "typical fantasy" campaigns. I see wizards as arcane scientists, which would pretty much keep them out of most fantasy campaigns in my opinion. I'm not interested in "typical fantasy" campagns. Is interesting the way u see the wizards, a nice change in flavor, but D&D is a fantasy game what u are trying to do will fit more nicely in a modern d20 game (maybe even an urban arcana). Just my :twocents:
Devil Gnasher 09-16-07, 01:40 AM	I updated my little optional rule. Should I include this the Magic and Spells forum?
IdleAltruism 09-16-07, 02:21 AM	To me wizards should be the scientests of the D&D game. They represent knowledge, insight and a fundemental unerstanding of the world around them. So why don't they get more than two skill points and why aren't their spells dependant on scientific skills? This should include such fields as biology (as organic studies). This is my humble proposal and in addition to the standard eight schools of magic. This would require raising the skill points to either four or six. So, is this a good idea or not? This will also devide Knowledge (Nature) in to three skills, Knowledge (Geology), Knowledge (Meteorology) and Knowledge (Organic Studies). Please note that this is not for all campaign settings. Hmm I have to disagree with you. Wizards have the potential to be scientists. They don't need to be and it doesn't necessarily help them. Working magic has very little to do with the material world as it is. Because of this wizards really don't need to know anything about it to function and be successful. Sure it could help but its not necessary. Wizards get more then enough skill points with just a +2 giving them more is probably a bad idea. The scientific aspects that you're suggesting belong in a d20 modern campaign. They have that and with things like urban arcana you could be a wizard/scientist and have boatloads of skills. A wizard doesn't need to know anything about chemistry or physics, with magic he is defying the laws of nature. He doesn't need to know about them to break them, all he needs to know is how to do it. I can fire a gun, I don't know how to make them or make the bullets. All I have to do is fire and reload it when its empty. Now your general wizard does know about magic and how it works, but he doesn't need to is what I'm getting at.
ArchmageOmega 09-16-07, 03:50 AM	This is an interesting idea. The other extreme from the normal magic isn't magical enough. (Both are good ideas, IMO.) One thing I see though is that you have 11 skills listed. This will seriously hinder generalist wizards. I suppose that's fine if you feel all wizards should specialize, but you may want to try and get the skill list down to around 7 (assuming you're doing away with spellcraft). That way, it'd be hard, but doable, to generalize.
Witch 09-16-07, 07:52 AM	A wizard doesn't need to know anything about chemistry or physics, with magic he is defying the laws of nature. Defying the laws of nature inside a system governed by them is impossible by definition. Magic would need to be part of the laws of nature to make any sense.
IdleAltruism 09-16-07, 06:05 PM	Defying the laws of nature inside a system governed by them is impossible by definition. Magic would need to be part of the laws of nature to make any sense. I was using the "laws of nature" as an example from our own world. While being very similar to our own, the D&D set up is obviously very different. And thats why ,imo, they shouldn't need conventional science to function.
Devil Gnasher 09-18-07, 04:22 PM	I've changed the names of the skills a bit and I intend upon coming up with a failure result table in case severe blunders (roll totals of 15 or more below the listed DC). Accidents do happen you know.
Lefty 09-23-07, 03:29 PM	Making magic into science is something a wizard might do if he were wise enough to see the parallel of sorcery and nature. One advantage would definetly be that a wizards could construct a device to carry out his spells while he could then move on into the next project he might have. And thermodynamics, if it were suddenly amazingly cold here would the "laws" of thermodynamics suggest that is would then be slightly warmer everywhere else? Fireball from guano is definetly science and the dumbest druid in the world could do it with out any chanting or frolicing.
Devil Gnasher 09-29-07, 01:21 AM	Making magic into science is something a wizard might do if he were wise enough to see the parallel of sorcery and nature. One advantage would definetly be that a wizards could construct a device to carry out his spells while he could then move on into the next project he might have. And thermodynamics, if it were suddenly amazingly cold here would the "laws" of thermodynamics suggest that is would then be slightly warmer everywhere else? Fireball from guano is definetly science and the dumbest druid in the world could do it with out any chanting or frolicing. If you were to make wizardry a form of science, which I support, then yes this would all make perfect sense.
Devil Gnasher 09-29-07, 01:44 AM	I made some major changes to the base rules, including the addition of minimum skill ranks for each spell. I also would like to develop metamagic components that actually have some real relation to the spell cast. I don't like the idea of using a fire opal to cast a widened fireball. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Sisial 10-01-07, 12:58 AM	I really like the idea of skills having a direct influence over spell casting capability. I think it emphasizes the importance of intelligence to the wizard class, which goes along with the current sterotype from DnD that wizards are the book worms of the magic world. That said I belive that this system is still flawed. As its set up now I don't see any motivating factor to make wizards put points into skills beyond what's neccessary to get the "good" spells, except perhaps RP. I see optics being especially overlooked. Once you've got light what other spells do you need from that field (true I don't have a list in front of me)? Also I imagine that after a certain level wizards that want their spells to have any power would have to focus soley on one or two knowledge groups. If they spread out too far they would not master many upper level spells. This last point might not be too bad though as the wizard is currently over-powered IMHO, and it would limit his spell selection. Also it would encourage RP as a specialist wizard. On the other hand it could get boring having only a few effective spells to cast over and over. Not a bad system and a good attempt at doing away with the current vancian system.
Devil Gnasher 10-01-07, 01:48 AM	All visual illusions require Knowledge (Optics) to be cast by wizards. Therefore it does matter if you are an illusionist. Other Knowledge (Optics) using spells: daylight, prismatic spray, prismatic wall, sunburst and prismatic sphere. Note that I'm not trying to abolish Vancian or per day casting in this thread. I'm merely adding an additional factor for wizards.
Lefty 10-04-07, 01:33 PM	I don't like the idea of using a fire opal to cast a widened fireball. It just doesn't make sense to me. My view on your topic is more along the lines of using spell components to construct simple items, like flamethrowers It would open up effects to further characters and spell casters could find extensive uses beyond "casting a spell" What do you think of that? Lefty
Devil Gnasher 12-17-07, 11:54 PM	My view on your topic is more along the lines of using spell components to construct simple items, like flamethrowers It would open up effects to further characters and spell casters could find extensive uses beyond "casting a spell" What do you think of that? Lefty That sounds reasonable. I like the idea of wizards using their magical and scientific skill to design and manufacture items for non-wizard use. Perhaps something like making a blow torch using the spell burning hands. Or maybe using the spell fireball in the making of a high powered kiln or oven. You could even have wizards converting the static electricity of a lightning bolt into current electricity for powering a city energy grid.