Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zzo38 05-26-07, 11:37 PM	(Note: I have finished designing this class: See the HTML page: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/ImprovedUnearthedArcana/SageWizard.htm) Clerics have d8 hit-dice, 2 good saves, better BAB than a wizard, domain granted powers, more spells per day than a wizard (but less than a sorcerer, which means that a sorcerer is powerful), and armor proficiency. The spell lists cleric/sorcerer/wizard are pretty balanced, but a cleric can sometimes cast other spells by domains anyways. So I have designed the class detailed on the HTML page linked to above. Can you see it and check if it is good? Clerics have d8 hit-dice, 2 good saves, better BAB than a wizard, domain granted powers, more spells per day than a wizard (but less than a sorcerer, which means that a sorcerer is powerful), and armor proficiency. The spell lists cleric/sorcerer/wizard are pretty balanced, but a cleric can sometimes cast other spells by domains anyways. Maybe there should be some sort of wizard variant that lets a wizard learn spells from any spell list (including domain-only spells, but not prestige classes), but you have to be at least the level of the class that is required for a character of that class to cast that spell, and prohibited schools still apply if you are a specialist wizard. There can also be additional penalties, if so, what should it be? Here are some possible ones I can think of (should any one these be used? should more than one of these be used simultaneously?) -1 penalty to caster level with spells not on the Wizard list Lose weapon proficiency You need a feat to summon a familiar It costs skill points to learn spells that aren't wizard spells One less spell/day of the second highest level you are capable of casting at your class level Can you please tell me if this should work OK? And how to correct it if it is wrong?
Naderion 05-27-07, 05:56 AM	I don't think it would be a good idea. Wizards are based on the idea of being able to cast a couple of spells, that have devestating effects. The class is not supposed to have healing- or nature-spells. The sorcerer does have the most spells per day, but also the very most limited selection of spells of the main spellcasters, which makes the class actually much weaker, if you don't want to limit your spell-selection to damage-dealing spells only.
zzo38 05-27-07, 01:29 PM	I don't think it would be a good idea. Wizards are based on the idea of being able to cast a couple of spells, that have devestating effects. The class is not supposed to have healing- or nature-spells. The sorcerer does have the most spells per day, but also the very most limited selection of spells of the main spellcasters, which makes the class actually much weaker, if you don't want to limit your spell-selection to damage-dealing spells only. Well, obviously the sorcerer class needs to be fixed as well in some way but that isn't the point of this thread. Wizards aren't supposed to have healing/nature/whatever spells but this is a new kind of wizard (a variant class, similar to the variant classes in Chapter 2 of Unearthed Arcana that can be optionally taken) and therefore needs one or more penalties. The spells are still written in a spellbook (all spells can be scribed on scrolls, so you should be able to copy any spell into a spellbook as well). It is especially useful for groups of characters that do not include a divine caster (but still not quite as powerful as one when casting non-wizard spells).
True Cavalier 05-27-07, 02:54 PM	I've flirted with that idea for a while and I came to think it's great. Aside from a few obviously divine spells (Divine Power etc) I see no reason why wizards shouldn't be able to cast cleric spells. So what if the wizard can heal? 1. If there is a cleric in the party, the wizard will let him do the healing, and save his slots himself for the more needed, encounter-ending stuff. 2. If there is no cleric in the party, the wizard will be able to heal the warriors a bit between fighting, filling a needed role. Does it upset balance? Nah. All it upsets is a player of mine that's a stickler for by-the-book-school rules (and by that I mean he loves psionics, but he veto'ed the idea a spell point system for traditional casters).
zzo38 05-27-07, 04:05 PM	..... Aside from a few obviously divine spells (Divine Power etc) I see no reason why wizards shouldn't be able to cast cleric spells. ....... There should be a rule to indicate which spells wizards cannot cast, the rule is that wizards cannot cast spells calling upon a divine power or a deity (Divine Favor, Divine Power, Miracle, etc). Also, I wrote that you can learn spells from any non-prestige spell list (including domain spells), but you need to be a high enough level for that class to be able to cast them as well (so you need to be class level 2 to learn Lesser Confusion, and so on). But maybe there should also be a penalty when using this variation (because a normal wizard doesn't do this), which penalty (or penalties) would you suggest should be used? If you think they shouldn't have any of these penalties, that is also OK, but you should explain why because otherwise it is slightly unbalanced.
True Cavalier 05-27-07, 05:50 PM	If you have second thoughts, then have them cast these spells at one level higher. So wizards would still get Cure Light Wounds, but as a 2nd level spell. If you still have second thoughts, you'll probably be better off just leaving it be.
Eldritch_Lord 05-27-07, 06:02 PM	In Complete Arcane, there is a prestige class called the Rainbow Servant which adds 3 domains' worth of spells to an arcane caster's spell list (among other benefits) and finally adds all cleric spells to the caster's spell list at 10th level. However, the way the casting progression works out, the character will only get up to 8th level spells at 20th level and will be 1-2 level(s) of spells behind for a few levels. This leads me to believe that the designers thought it could be balanced for arcane casters to access divine spells, but only at the cost of slower advancement and the loss of their most powerful spells. I'd suggest that you give this variant wizard the sorcerer's spell level progression (1st level spells at 1st level, 2nd level spells at 4th level, etc) and remove their access to 9th level spells, or the sorcerer's progression and divine spells are 1 level higher so they at least can't get 9th level divine spells. In terms of spells originating from divine power, as per True Cavalier's and zzo38' suggestions, I don't think that will be a problem; with my solution, given that this wizard would get the spells later and would never get miracle, a little reflavoring should take care of them.
zzo38 05-27-07, 06:59 PM	......... I'd suggest that you give this variant wizard the sorcerer's spell level progression (1st level spells at 1st level, 2nd level spells at 4th level, etc) and remove their access to 9th level spells, or the sorcerer's progression and divine spells are 1 level higher so they at least can't get 9th level divine spells. In terms of spells originating from divine power, as per True Cavalier's and zzo38' suggestions, I don't think that will be a problem; with my solution, given that this wizard would get the spells later and would never get miracle, a little reflavoring should take care of them. If you have second thoughts, then have them cast these spells at one level higher. So wizards would still get Cure Light Wounds, but as a 2nd level spell. If you still have second thoughts, you'll probably be better off just leaving it be. No, I think these are both too severe, maybe I should just use the first three: "-1 penalty to caster level with spells not on the Wizard list", "Lose weapon proficiency", "You need a feat to summon a familiar", and also not being able to use spells that are calling upon divine power or deities. There can possibly be feats that will remove each of these penalties individually (the third one it already says you can use a feat, the second one you can use the Simple Weapon Proficiencies feat, the first one a new feat can be invented to remove that penalty). Non-wizard 0-level spells still have to be learned separately, you don't start with them. Also, there should be a name for this wizard variation ("Divine Wizard" is no good, like I said it doesn't use divine power, it isn't even specific to cleric spells (or other divine spells), it can use spells from other classes as well (bard, druid, etc)).
True Cavalier 05-27-07, 07:18 PM	The "No familiar" and "No weapon prof"... Name it "Sage"?
zzo38 05-27-07, 08:27 PM	The "No familiar" and "No weapon prof"... Name it "Sage"? OK. Now I made a HTML page about it: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/ImprovedUnearthedArcana/SageWizard.htm
ragoftag 05-31-07, 01:02 PM	An Acquaintance turned the Hierophant into a 'core' class for Baccoob, using wizard and cleric domains, plus 'full caster progression'. Problems that occurred where: 1) A rigid stat discipline in order to access both sets of high end spells. 19 is a doable, two 19s hurt! Ask any monk trying for 20/20. 2) Due to the above, the H sucketh at nearly everything! The two 17s cost 26 by themselves. Impossible in a 25 pt game, a ball-buster in a 28 and painful in a 32, its still leaves you the weakling in a high powered, 40 pt game. Granted, I've only seen this in a 28+ game, about level 6-7. 3) If you grant full casting in both to any class, it is an abomination of epic proportions. The 'cast all day' can easily wreck the game. Balance and harsh reality will force mods as in the above game. That game uses HypertextD20 spell points, Wizard spells allowed, default to domains spells, but no undead function or armor (Cannot remember saves, BAB, hits, etc. sry). Oddly, it produces a selfish and uncaring, Baccoob-like attitude in those who run the class! I'll try and get a copy when he returns in the fall, but I imagine someone here would easily duplicate and improve upon even the 'rumor' I've provided.
shout27 06-01-07, 03:56 PM	The problem with that train of thought is that Clerics are in general directly tied to their Deity so they don't need to study for those Spells since they're directly given to them by said Deity. those who don't worship any particular deity i would consider being part of a deity "pool" where any deity watching who likes what they see contribute to the Clerics personal power, example: 5 deities are keeping an eye on a first level cleric 1 decides to supply him with a 1st-level spell, another 3 take care of the 0-levels, and the fifth could decide to give him both the 2nd 1-level, and 4th 0-level of the 2nd Cleric level when he attains it.
General Felire 06-01-07, 05:08 PM	I am personally of the mind set that any feature that removes the stupid (in my opinion) restrictions on the arcane-divine split (I see no reason, none at all, why wizards should not be able to heal) is a good thing and should seriously be looked at. So I like the idea and thing that it has merit.
True Cavalier 06-01-07, 07:40 PM	I see no reason, none at all, why wizards should not be able to heal There is one, it's tradition :P Oh, and the fact that the DMG scares people by calling it "The all-powerful hybrid, a caster with the healing abilities of the cleric, and the offensive power of a wizard". (Which is funny because clerics already have the offensive power of wizards anyway)
General Felire 06-01-07, 09:02 PM	There is one, it's tradition :P Oh, and the fact that the DMG scares people by calling it "The all-powerful hybrid, a caster with the healing abilities of the cleric, and the offensive power of a wizard". (Which is funny because clerics already have the offensive power of wizards anyway) Tradition, what does tradition have to do with anything. :) I want a game to be fun, and the current system is not fun. Thus I am trying to figure out how to change it. So in this case tradition can kiss my ass. :D
zzo38 06-02-07, 10:00 AM	Tradition, what does tradition have to do with anything. :) I want a game to be fun, and the current system is not fun. Thus I am trying to figure out how to change it. So in this case tradition can kiss my ass. :D You are trying to figure out how to change it? Well, I just did tell you how to change it! http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/ImprovedUnearthedArcana/SageWizard.htm (I changed a few things, you might have to close the top frame and refresh, I don't know why) There is one, it's tradition Oh, and the fact that the DMG scares people by calling it "The all-powerful hybrid, a caster with the healing abilities of the cleric, and the offensive power of a wizard". (Which is funny because clerics already have the offensive power of wizards anyway) I am doing a calculation. Wizards have 4*(5+10+10+15+15+20+20+25+25)=580. Clerics have 6*1+6*5+6*10+6*10+6*15+5*15+5*20+5*20+5* 25=646. Sorcerers have 6*(5+10+10+15+15+20+20+25+25)=870. So yes, you are right, clerics do have the offensive power of wizards. But sorcerers have more power but less knowledge. So, I have invented the Sage Wizard. I added a few small penalties to make it balanced, but you can check. Would you use this class?
ragoftag 06-02-07, 03:35 PM	oops, nearly forgot. As a 'single' caster, the above Baccoob Priest winds up drained at the end of every day. If it bothers you so, try the gestalt caster!
General Felire 06-02-07, 10:09 PM	You are trying to figure out how to change it? Well, I just did tell you how to change it! http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/ImprovedUnearthedArcana/SageWizard.htm (I changed a few things, you might have to close the top frame and refresh, I don't know why) I am doing a calculation. Wizards have 4*(5+10+10+15+15+20+20+25+25)=580. Clerics have 6*1+6*5+6*10+6*10+6*15+5*15+5*20+5*20+5* 25=646. Sorcerers have 6*(5+10+10+15+15+20+20+25+25)=870. So yes, you are right, clerics do have the offensive power of wizards. But sorcerers have more power but less knowledge. So, I have invented the Sage Wizard. I added a few small penalties to make it balanced, but you can check. Would you use this class? Its an interesting class and one that I wouldn't mind using. My biggest problem is the lack of weapon abilities. I think all character classes should have basic knowledge of armor and stuff. Non-magical defense is important. The loss of a familiar is no big deal. I'm not sure what you mean by -1 caster level to cast spells not on the list. Actually, I get that, its the note afterward that you can reduce this by spending skill points. Skill points on what? I do also want to say that I kinda disagree with the concept of the -1 caster level. The way the class is set up is that their really is no restriction on what spells are considered 'arcane' (well, except for those that directly call on a deity's power, which should be banned). Why should they have a problem casting a spell that is, for all intents and purposes, become arcane. All in all I like this class variant and would have no problem using it. It removes my biggest problem - the fact that some spells are forbidden for no good reason.
zzo38 06-03-07, 03:28 AM	......... I'm not sure what you mean by -1 caster level to cast spells not on the list. Actually, I get that, its the note afterward that you can reduce this by spending skill points. Skill points on what? I do also want to say that I kinda disagree with the concept of the -1 caster level. The way the class is set up is that their really is no restriction on what spells are considered 'arcane' (well, except for those that directly call on a deity's power, which should be banned). Why should they have a problem casting a spell that is, for all intents and purposes, become arcane. ......... The skill point is wasted and the penalty is removed for all spells once you waste this single skill point. About no proficiencies, it is because this sage wizard spends more time studying magic spells. (You can still take the simple weapon proficiency feat if you want, though)
Rhialto 06-03-07, 05:36 AM	Spending one skill point to remove that caster level penalty is a trivial drawback. Skill points are cheap.
True Cavalier 06-03-07, 06:37 AM	Especially since this one gets more skill points to begin with.
zzo38 06-03-07, 09:29 AM	Especially since this one gets more skill points to begin with. Where does it say that?
True Cavalier 06-03-07, 03:09 PM	Scratch that, apparently I had another topic in mind.
General Felire 06-03-07, 03:25 PM	The skill point is wasted and the penalty is removed for all spells once you waste this single skill point. About no proficiencies, it is because this sage wizard spends more time studying magic spells. (You can still take the simple weapon proficiency feat if you want, though) Okay, I understand now. I just didn't get what was going to happen to the skill point. Its very clear now, and it makes sense. It makes sense so no problem with that. I can understand your concept, I just disagree with it as it relates to proficiency. That's okay as its not that big of a deal. All in all I really like the variant and would definitely use it. Spending one skill point to remove that caster level penalty is a trivial drawback. Skill points are cheap. Yeah, I agree. It is not that big of an expenditure to get the penalty removed. Honestly, I see the vast majority of players of this class doing that.
Waldo_di 06-29-07, 12:24 AM	make it a feat not a single skill point or at least something better than a SINGLE skill point
zzo38 06-29-07, 11:18 AM	make it a feat not a single skill point or at least something better than a SINGLE skill point Maybe three skill points would be better?
Rhialto 06-29-07, 01:21 PM	I'd still consider it a decent trade-off if it cost me 8 skill points.
Khelvaster 06-29-07, 05:38 PM	In Complete Arcane, there is a prestige class called the Rainbow Servant which adds 3 domains' worth of spells to an arcane caster's spell list (among other benefits) and finally adds all cleric spells to the caster's spell list at 10th level. However, the way the casting progression works out, the character will only get up to 8th level spells at 20th level and will be 1-2 level(s) of spells behind for a few levels. This leads me to believe that the designers thought it could be balanced for arcane casters to access divine spells, but only at the cost of slower advancement and the loss of their most powerful spells. If you stick to the WoTC interpretation of text trumps chart, then it actually gets full casting...
zzo38 06-29-07, 07:50 PM	I'd still consider it a decent trade-off if it cost me 8 skill points. OK I changed it to 8 skill points.
Rhialto 06-30-07, 03:18 AM	By "decent trade-off", I meant "no-brainer decision". Skill points are that cheap.
sren 07-01-07, 02:05 PM	I've always liked the idea of Mages casting healing spells, as most of the non-DnD games I enjoy don't have a difference between arcane and divine spells. Part of the Flavor of DnD, however, is based on healing without sacrifice being innately divine, specifically not available to arcane casters. There are a couple spells in DnD Books that allow a mage to heal himself by hurting others or sacrificing extra spells, but there are rarely used (at least in any game I've played). There is an official way for mages to cast divine spells though. A feat in complete divine gives an arcane caster the ability to prepare or spontaneously cast (as appropriate for the class) one spell per day at each spell level from one Domain. The prerequisites are just basic knowledge of religion, and that the caster worship a deity with access to that domain and match the deity's alignment. I've found that to be a wonderful feat, that adds flavor to pious mages and gives them something unique. AND using that feat is much easier than trying to balance a whole new base class.
AnonymouseRex 10-12-07, 05:59 PM	You do not gain any weapon proficiency. You do not gain the ability to summon a familiar. You can expend a feat slot to gain the ability to summon a familiar. You can learn spells from any non-prestige class list (including domains). You need to be a high enough level that you could cast it as a member of the other class that you took the spell from. (Non-wizard 0-level spells aren't learned automatically, you still need to select it at levelup.) You can't cast spells that call upon divine power or a deity (such as Divine Favor, Divine Power, Miracle, etc). You get a -1 penalty to caster level when casting non-wizard spells. This penalty may be removed by spending 8 skill points. Sage wizards use Wisdom as the key ability for Concentration instead of Constitution. If you are multiclassed, this does not apply to spells cast through classes other than sage wizard. I don't like it. I think its wonky. I don't like the wisdom for concentration thing. I don't like the caster penalty thing. I dislike the lack of familiar. Alot. I am digging the no weapon profs and open spell access though... I also do not think that it solves anything either. Druids and Clerics still whup butt. Actually a well prepared wizard will usually whip all. By well prepared I mean - if they have a sheaf of scrolls handy for every occasion. That oft overlooked feat is extraordinarily powerful when used correctly. A little expense and experience and you will take a wizards spells per day to tactically infinite. What I like here is the "no spells barred" I have always found it absurd that a "master of the arcane mysteries of the universe" was unable to yank some hellfire outa somewhere. I have always said wtfe and let wizards learn any spell. Spells not normally available are +1 spell level. Spells that involve holy energy ... well you gotta have a source for that, but such things can be arranged. (read: added exp cost) But really? Summon Nature's Ally? What kind of master of magic? What kind of Sorceror Supreme? What kind of wizard actually can't do that? C'mon. Most specifically I have allowed wizards to "commune" on numerous occasions. What? They have phenomenal, if not necessarily cosmic, powers. An understanding of the underlying nature of the universe (whichever they happen to be in) that mocks even the most enlightened members of the other classes (clerics use what they are given and druids usually don't care that much). When they "call god" - they get a messenger, and he might lie if the alignments are off. Healing spells though? Hehe - watch this insano trick a player pulled on me. Enter Bard. Bard Takes Scribe Scroll feat. Bard Scribes ... Arcane Cure Light Wounds Scrolls. Enter Wizard. Wizard buys scroll from Bard. Wizard Learns spell. Wizard Knows Arcane Cure Light Wounds. He wrote to "The Sage" (back in 3.0 days) and according to him it was "approved" in public. Never saw it myself, but sounds reasonable. I let it fly obviously.
Xeorsos 10-23-07, 04:12 PM	You might consider adding a line to the effect of "If a spell is on the Wizard's list, he must take it at that level." That way you don't end up giving him obnoxiously high level spells at low levels (Ranger and Paladin spells aren't always balanced by spell level- they're sometimes balanced at what level you receive them.)