Wizard with Bardic Knowledge? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wizard with Bardic Knowledge? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Reimer_Bo
01-27-05, 09:16 AM A dirty quick one question:
Would it be fair to exchange your familiar with the bardic knowledge ability?
Both scales with level and it makes kind of sense for a more scholarly inclined wizard to learn obscure facts and lore then to bond a wild animal as a pet.
What do you think?
Ricky
01-27-05, 11:07 AM Very tough question. These two abilities are very different, and so comparing them requires a lot of work.

Another way to think about it would be: If a wizard has bardic knowledge instead of a familiar, is he broken somehow? i.e. rather than trying to see if bardic knowledge is about as powerful as a familiar, just see if the bardic knowledge wizard is too powerful (or too weak) for your game.
Ao
01-27-05, 12:52 PM A dirty quick one question:
Would it be fair to exchange your familiar with the bardic knowledge ability?
Both scales with level and it makes kind of sense for a more scholarly inclined wizard to learn obscure facts and lore then to bond a wild animal as a pet.
What do you think?

Broken or not, balanced or not, That's exactly what I've been doing for about nine months now. I like it. My players like it. In my opinion, it is very balanced and fits well with the concept of the wizard class.
Lina_Inverse
01-27-05, 02:26 PM tradeing a worthless ability more hinderence than help.for knowledge all?

UTTERLY FRICKEN UNBALENCED.

wizards may be scholary but its not in the pursuit of knowledge,bards are the sages.wizards are just that.EVERYTHING is for magical power.
Ricky
01-28-05, 10:53 AM Lina_Inverse, I'm confused. IMC, the sorcerer's familiar is incredibly useful. He uses the familiar as a scout, as well as a mobile combat machine (he casts spells on the familiar and the familiar uses them, with the "share spells" ability).

Also, bardic knowledge is not Knowledge (all). It is rougly Knowledge (legends). I don't understand where you're coming from.
Reimer_Bo
01-28-05, 10:59 AM Thanks for the replies...
Ricky it was why I asked this on the board, because I am having a hard time deciding if it is unbalanced.
But I come up with these arguments for (it being an unbalanced idea)
You can get a familiar for a feat
Bardic knowledge is one of the bards’ signature powers and only the bard class and to a lesser degree some PrC have access to it.
A wizard (with bardic knowledge) is properly better to use it, then a bard of equal level (due to intelligence).

And these argument against:
Familiar gives more tangible effects like two virtual feats (granted, not two great feats, but still), and magical intelligent companion.
Familiar can be used in combat with the right feats and/or spells.
If I was a bard I would probably rather have a familiar, then a bardic lore, because a skill focus (almost anything) and alertness is useful for skill type of character.

Ao: glad to hear, what about your bard players do they also agree with this rulling (if you have any)?

Lina: First I don't think the familiar are completly worthless, and second bardic knowledge is not knowedge (all), because you only have ranks equal you class level, you can not use it as requirements, and you don't gain nifty synergy effects.

I like the boards, 3 different people, 3 different opinions on what is balanced and what isn't... hmmm! :rolleyes:
Reimer_Bo
01-28-05, 11:01 AM darn, fast Ricky :D
Grigori
01-28-05, 11:27 AM It depnds on a lot. The Familiar is in reality worth only a feat. It does give you many additional benefits though, and is very effective if you know how to use it properly. Otherwise it's just an accident waiting to happen.

Personally, I would drop summon familiar and Scribe scroll for Bardic knowledge or 'Lore' ability. You're a researcher, not a crafter. You can take the feat later of course, but just for 1st level I'd go with that.

I think wizards did something similar in a 'class acts' section of a dragon magazine, though which one, I don't know.
Ricky
01-28-05, 01:52 PM Reimer, if one of my players asked if he could swap his familiar for bardic knowledge, I would probably allow it. I would not allow it because I think bardic knowledge is as powerful as a familiar, because I think that's a virtually impossible comparison to make. Instead, I would ask, "Is a wizard with bardic knowledge too powerful (or weak) for my game?" and I would answer No.
Part-Human2
01-29-05, 01:36 AM Dragon Magazine 324 has a Wizard Variant called the Filidh. Filidh knowledge being the equivalent to Bardic Knowledge. The trade-off is no bonus feats, no familiar but +1 caster level for divination spells every 5 levels. Theres a change in skills.

Filidh's are "highly respective lawgivers of barbarian society."
Ao
01-30-05, 01:38 AM Ao: glad to hear, what about your bard players do they also agree with this rulling (if you have any)?

Currently I have no players interested in playing a Bard.

I have been a D.M. for 25 years now. I've been D.M. to a 1st edition Bard as well as a 2nd edition Bard. Many of my players have been with me through earlier editions of the game, though I have some new players who have just been introduced to D&D. They are a fairly diverse group, but none of them (and I am referring to a significant amount of people here) want to play a 3.5 Bard.
In my opinion, many people are attracted to the Bard's manifold talents, but are put-off by the Bard classes musical aspect.

I have a number of Sorcerer and Wizard players. None of them have wanted familiars. I suggested Bardic Knowledge as a replacement ability for the Wizard characters and their players embraced the idea. It may not fit some other D.M.'s stereotype of the core Wizard, and Bard players might feel threatened by the lore friendly Wizards of my 3.5 campaigns, but it compliments the idea of Wizards in our games. My players like it, and I get to keep a cool class ability active in the campaign.
Lina_Inverse
01-31-05, 11:53 PM Lina_Inverse, I'm confused. IMC, the sorcerer's familiar is incredibly useful. He uses the familiar as a scout, as well as a mobile combat machine (he casts spells on the familiar and the familiar uses them, with the "share spells" ability).

cast fireball.sorcerer loses a class ability and a bunch of xp.this is why familiars suck.
you do actully try to kill your pcs and there minions right?if you havent killed the little bugger your not challengeing them enough.

Also, bardic knowledge is not Knowledge (all). It is rougly Knowledge (legends). I don't understand where you're coming from.

wrong,its knowledge ALL.it can easily substitute for any knowledge at the low low cost fo +3DC.

A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the bard has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.)
A successful bardic knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A bard may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random.

explain to me,what the pcs need to worry about that isnt.
a legendary item
a noteworthy place
or a local notable person.

exception,monster stats.squee.
Ricky
02-01-05, 10:43 AM When my player's sorcerer had a familiar, the familiar ruled. I never saw it as weak or a hindrance. The sorcerer kept it in a familiar pocket (the spell from Tome and Blood) for protection.

explain to me,what the pcs need to worry about that isnt.
a legendary item
a noteworthy place
or a local notable person.

Knowledge (nature): identifying animals, plants, weather predictions.
Knowledge (arcana): identifying magical rituals or spell components.
Knowledge (the planes): probably the most useful one, since you can identify outsiders and their strengths and weaknesses.
Adrez Nesnsid
02-02-05, 02:25 PM A dirty quick one question:
Would it be fair to exchange your familiar with the bardic knowledge ability?
Both scales with level and it makes kind of sense for a more scholarly inclined wizard to learn obscure facts and lore then to bond a wild animal as a pet.
What do you think?

Well, I think that it would make more sense for the wizard to have the ability than it would for the bard to have it...

"Oh. So you can't answer my question Professor Hawking? Oh well... I'll go ask Keanu Reeves, he'll know..."
Grigori
02-02-05, 03:24 PM Well, I think that it would make more sense for the wizard to have the ability than it would for the bard to have it...

"Oh. So you can't answer my question Professor Hawking? Oh well... I'll go ask Keanu Reeves, he'll know..."
Woah... :cool: Dude...

:rofl:
Astrimedes
02-04-05, 06:39 PM I like the idea, but I think this is stepping way too much on the bard's toes. You could probably give him the ability, but make it less powerful than the bard's ability. Perhaps just use 1/2 level instead of the full level bonus? Maybe add 10 to all the DCs? Make it apply only to magic-based things (info pertaining to powerful wizards, magic items, etc)? The preceeding suggestions are meant to be implemented each on their own, not cumulatively. This would be in addition to giving up the familiar, of course. This way you give them the ability, but the bard is still the master of it.

In addition, bardic knowledge is supposed to represent information that is almost neccessarilly not book knowledge, but information learned from random bits of conversations overheard, off-handed comments made by this guy that happens to coincide with this other comment that guy made, etc. This is why I believe the knowledge is so random. When you read a book on these things (which is how I would envision the wizard's ability working), you are choosing to read that book, and the knowledge almost doesn't make sense as randomly determined.

Bardic knowledge is an often overlooked, but very powerful ability. Bardic knowledge can completely change the course of an adventure with the roll of one die.
sooperspook
02-04-05, 09:51 PM no different than the Loremasters lore ability to me. I'd have no problems with it.
Judging Eagle
02-05-05, 01:03 AM Bardic Knowledge is a history/nobility type of knowledge check. This is also limited by the fact that the roll can't be done carefully and the max you can have it at is Bard lvl + Int mod. Also, the adjustment to use Bardic Knowlege is +5, NOT +3.

Wizards already can get ALL knowledge skills as class skills.

You can get your level + 3 in each (reccomended: Arcana, The Planes, Nature, Arcitecture & Engineering, Religion and possibly Dungeouneering). With a wizards high amount of skill pts per level (well, not really, but they add their Int mod), and every wizard worth their salt gets as much Int Boosting gear as possible so that each skill could have roughly 5-10 ranks plus an other +5-10 so that they could have 10-20 plus their dice roll to apply to most knowledge checks.

Also, if you really want the Lore ability, check out the Loremaster. -_-;; Sheesh the name says it all.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Reimer_Bo 01-27-05, 09:16 AM	A dirty quick one question: Would it be fair to exchange your familiar with the bardic knowledge ability? Both scales with level and it makes kind of sense for a more scholarly inclined wizard to learn obscure facts and lore then to bond a wild animal as a pet. What do you think?
Ricky 01-27-05, 11:07 AM	Very tough question. These two abilities are very different, and so comparing them requires a lot of work. Another way to think about it would be: If a wizard has bardic knowledge instead of a familiar, is he broken somehow? i.e. rather than trying to see if bardic knowledge is about as powerful as a familiar, just see if the bardic knowledge wizard is too powerful (or too weak) for your game.
Ao 01-27-05, 12:52 PM	A dirty quick one question: Would it be fair to exchange your familiar with the bardic knowledge ability? Both scales with level and it makes kind of sense for a more scholarly inclined wizard to learn obscure facts and lore then to bond a wild animal as a pet. What do you think? Broken or not, balanced or not, That's exactly what I've been doing for about nine months now. I like it. My players like it. In my opinion, it is very balanced and fits well with the concept of the wizard class.
Lina_Inverse 01-27-05, 02:26 PM	tradeing a worthless ability more hinderence than help.for knowledge all? UTTERLY FRICKEN UNBALENCED. wizards may be scholary but its not in the pursuit of knowledge,bards are the sages.wizards are just that.EVERYTHING is for magical power.
Ricky 01-28-05, 10:53 AM	Lina_Inverse, I'm confused. IMC, the sorcerer's familiar is incredibly useful. He uses the familiar as a scout, as well as a mobile combat machine (he casts spells on the familiar and the familiar uses them, with the "share spells" ability). Also, bardic knowledge is not Knowledge (all). It is rougly Knowledge (legends). I don't understand where you're coming from.
Reimer_Bo 01-28-05, 10:59 AM	Thanks for the replies... Ricky it was why I asked this on the board, because I am having a hard time deciding if it is unbalanced. But I come up with these arguments for (it being an unbalanced idea) You can get a familiar for a feat Bardic knowledge is one of the bards’ signature powers and only the bard class and to a lesser degree some PrC have access to it. A wizard (with bardic knowledge) is properly better to use it, then a bard of equal level (due to intelligence). And these argument against: Familiar gives more tangible effects like two virtual feats (granted, not two great feats, but still), and magical intelligent companion. Familiar can be used in combat with the right feats and/or spells. If I was a bard I would probably rather have a familiar, then a bardic lore, because a skill focus (almost anything) and alertness is useful for skill type of character. Ao: glad to hear, what about your bard players do they also agree with this rulling (if you have any)? Lina: First I don't think the familiar are completly worthless, and second bardic knowledge is not knowedge (all), because you only have ranks equal you class level, you can not use it as requirements, and you don't gain nifty synergy effects. I like the boards, 3 different people, 3 different opinions on what is balanced and what isn't... hmmm! :rolleyes:
Reimer_Bo 01-28-05, 11:01 AM	darn, fast Ricky :D
Grigori 01-28-05, 11:27 AM	It depnds on a lot. The Familiar is in reality worth only a feat. It does give you many additional benefits though, and is very effective if you know how to use it properly. Otherwise it's just an accident waiting to happen. Personally, I would drop summon familiar and Scribe scroll for Bardic knowledge or 'Lore' ability. You're a researcher, not a crafter. You can take the feat later of course, but just for 1st level I'd go with that. I think wizards did something similar in a 'class acts' section of a dragon magazine, though which one, I don't know.
Ricky 01-28-05, 01:52 PM	Reimer, if one of my players asked if he could swap his familiar for bardic knowledge, I would probably allow it. I would not allow it because I think bardic knowledge is as powerful as a familiar, because I think that's a virtually impossible comparison to make. Instead, I would ask, "Is a wizard with bardic knowledge too powerful (or weak) for my game?" and I would answer No.
Part-Human2 01-29-05, 01:36 AM	Dragon Magazine 324 has a Wizard Variant called the Filidh. Filidh knowledge being the equivalent to Bardic Knowledge. The trade-off is no bonus feats, no familiar but +1 caster level for divination spells every 5 levels. Theres a change in skills. Filidh's are "highly respective lawgivers of barbarian society."
Ao 01-30-05, 01:38 AM	Ao: glad to hear, what about your bard players do they also agree with this rulling (if you have any)? Currently I have no players interested in playing a Bard. I have been a D.M. for 25 years now. I've been D.M. to a 1st edition Bard as well as a 2nd edition Bard. Many of my players have been with me through earlier editions of the game, though I have some new players who have just been introduced to D&D. They are a fairly diverse group, but none of them (and I am referring to a significant amount of people here) want to play a 3.5 Bard. In my opinion, many people are attracted to the Bard's manifold talents, but are put-off by the Bard classes musical aspect. I have a number of Sorcerer and Wizard players. None of them have wanted familiars. I suggested Bardic Knowledge as a replacement ability for the Wizard characters and their players embraced the idea. It may not fit some other D.M.'s stereotype of the core Wizard, and Bard players might feel threatened by the lore friendly Wizards of my 3.5 campaigns, but it compliments the idea of Wizards in our games. My players like it, and I get to keep a cool class ability active in the campaign.
Lina_Inverse 01-31-05, 11:53 PM	Lina_Inverse, I'm confused. IMC, the sorcerer's familiar is incredibly useful. He uses the familiar as a scout, as well as a mobile combat machine (he casts spells on the familiar and the familiar uses them, with the "share spells" ability). cast fireball.sorcerer loses a class ability and a bunch of xp.this is why familiars suck. you do actully try to kill your pcs and there minions right?if you havent killed the little bugger your not challengeing them enough. Also, bardic knowledge is not Knowledge (all). It is rougly Knowledge (legends). I don't understand where you're coming from. wrong,its knowledge ALL.it can easily substitute for any knowledge at the low low cost fo +3DC. A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the bard has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.) A successful bardic knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A bard may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random. explain to me,what the pcs need to worry about that isnt. a legendary item a noteworthy place or a local notable person. exception,monster stats.squee.
Ricky 02-01-05, 10:43 AM	When my player's sorcerer had a familiar, the familiar ruled. I never saw it as weak or a hindrance. The sorcerer kept it in a familiar pocket (the spell from Tome and Blood) for protection. explain to me,what the pcs need to worry about that isnt. a legendary item a noteworthy place or a local notable person. Knowledge (nature): identifying animals, plants, weather predictions. Knowledge (arcana): identifying magical rituals or spell components. Knowledge (the planes): probably the most useful one, since you can identify outsiders and their strengths and weaknesses.
Adrez Nesnsid 02-02-05, 02:25 PM	A dirty quick one question: Would it be fair to exchange your familiar with the bardic knowledge ability? Both scales with level and it makes kind of sense for a more scholarly inclined wizard to learn obscure facts and lore then to bond a wild animal as a pet. What do you think? Well, I think that it would make more sense for the wizard to have the ability than it would for the bard to have it... "Oh. So you can't answer my question Professor Hawking? Oh well... I'll go ask Keanu Reeves, he'll know..."
Grigori 02-02-05, 03:24 PM	Well, I think that it would make more sense for the wizard to have the ability than it would for the bard to have it... "Oh. So you can't answer my question Professor Hawking? Oh well... I'll go ask Keanu Reeves, he'll know..." Woah... :cool: Dude... :rofl:
Astrimedes 02-04-05, 06:39 PM	I like the idea, but I think this is stepping way too much on the bard's toes. You could probably give him the ability, but make it less powerful than the bard's ability. Perhaps just use 1/2 level instead of the full level bonus? Maybe add 10 to all the DCs? Make it apply only to magic-based things (info pertaining to powerful wizards, magic items, etc)? The preceeding suggestions are meant to be implemented each on their own, not cumulatively. This would be in addition to giving up the familiar, of course. This way you give them the ability, but the bard is still the master of it. In addition, bardic knowledge is supposed to represent information that is almost neccessarilly not book knowledge, but information learned from random bits of conversations overheard, off-handed comments made by this guy that happens to coincide with this other comment that guy made, etc. This is why I believe the knowledge is so random. When you read a book on these things (which is how I would envision the wizard's ability working), you are choosing to read that book, and the knowledge almost doesn't make sense as randomly determined. Bardic knowledge is an often overlooked, but very powerful ability. Bardic knowledge can completely change the course of an adventure with the roll of one die.
sooperspook 02-04-05, 09:51 PM	no different than the Loremasters lore ability to me. I'd have no problems with it.
Judging Eagle 02-05-05, 01:03 AM	Bardic Knowledge is a history/nobility type of knowledge check. This is also limited by the fact that the roll can't be done carefully and the max you can have it at is Bard lvl + Int mod. Also, the adjustment to use Bardic Knowlege is +5, NOT +3. Wizards already can get ALL knowledge skills as class skills. You can get your level + 3 in each (reccomended: Arcana, The Planes, Nature, Arcitecture & Engineering, Religion and possibly Dungeouneering). With a wizards high amount of skill pts per level (well, not really, but they add their Int mod), and every wizard worth their salt gets as much Int Boosting gear as possible so that each skill could have roughly 5-10 ranks plus an other +5-10 so that they could have 10-20 plus their dice roll to apply to most knowledge checks. Also, if you really want the Lore ability, check out the Loremaster. -_-;; Sheesh the name says it all.