Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zephyrTR 07-26-07, 04:33 PM	If it's TLDR, just read the bold text for my ideas. Wizards first - Nobody I've ever met who's even played DnD once enjoys preparing spells. So when I read the spellpoints system in Unearthed Arcanna I knew i found my solution: they just make their 'known spells' list for the day and cast whatever! Perfect. That sat very well with me with divine casters, but with wizards... I don't know. I see them as the scientists of magic and the whole 'memorizing' spells thing didn't seem to work for me. It doesn't make sense - study every morning just so you can forget everything again 24 hours later? Another explanation is that they 'cast' the spells at this time and then 'release' the spells when they need to - but that seems stupid. Why aren't there manaburn spells then? So here's my fix. Let wizards have access to the ENTIRE list of spells in the PHB at all times, but they gotta carry around their textbooks like the science teachers they are, keeping the other hand free for somatic gestures. In this way a wizard is not considered unarmed. Knowledge (arcanna) DC20+spell level to cast a spell without their book. You could even put in a feat for 'wandcasting' allowing wizards to use pointed or rodlike objects to gesture out spells instead of their hands You could even put in rare shields that are designed to hold a wizard's book in it. I still just find this to make wizards really wizards. And then Sorcerers - does anyone else feel they're gimped in comparison to Wizards? They dont get 5 bonus feats like wizards do, their spells off CHA does nothing else for them as opposed to wizards (INT gives more skill points) or divine casters (WIS gives higher will save). Worst of all, sorcerers gain the next tier of spells a level later than wizards do. Their greater # of spells per day is balanced against their lack of versatility, their skill set seems fair against a wizards, and they get more weapon proficiencies than a wizard, but that doesn't matter one iota past lvl 6. Am i wrong for beefing sorcerers in my own campaign? I gave them 'dragon domains' based off dragon feats in complete arcane which gives them one spell in the next magic tier one level before normal so wizards and sorcerers get lvl 3 spells at class lvl6, and so on. This also gives sorcerers a little more versatility to combat wizards now having complete access to arcane spells. Once sorcerers lvl again, they learn more sorc spells as per usual. I'm also giving them the ability to substitute elemental magic depending on the domain they chose, and im giving them free metamagic spells in the same fashion as wizards. So... tell me what for. Good ideas? Bad ideas?
jagggar 07-26-07, 04:43 PM	Wizards Access to all PHB arcane spells or access to their entire list of spells known? Does 'wandcasting' grant any additional benefits or just allow the wizard to wave a stick around? Sorcerers You're not wrong for doing something in your own campaign. I think I like the free elemental substitution.
HermitIX 07-26-07, 05:21 PM	What is “TLDR?” Sorcerers do get the short end of the stick. You don’t get anything interesting after 1st level. I always prestige class out of it immediately. I like the idea of adding the domain, but I would make it so the sorcerer gets the domain abilities for his sorcerer levels. So if he is a Sorc 5/Prc 10, he only gets the domain for lvl 1-3 spells. If he gets more sorc levels later then the domain progresses normally. And for the record, I like to prepare spells.
zephyrTR 07-26-07, 06:11 PM	1 - wandcasting would allow for him to hold a dagger, quarterstaff, club, or wand in his other hand, thus allowing him to be martially armed as well as magically armed. 2 - hmm... i dont know the terminology that would make this most clear so I will make an example. a lvl 5 wizard will have access to all wizard spells lvls 0-3 as long as he has his book in front of him. He has all the PHB wizard spells in his book, but obviously he's not strong enough to use all of them. on a side note, he can find scrolls from spells in supplemental books and add them to his spell book, but he needs to go through the traditional ways of doing that. A sorcerer can just pick that spell to be one of his 'known spells' assuming the DM allows it. 3 - good suggestion about sorcerers and multiclassing, thanks for agreeing with me. 4 - TLDR means 'too long, didn't read" 5 - wow, it's amazing to meet you. Really, you're the first person I've met who likes preparing spells.
runestar 07-27-07, 01:10 AM	The ability to spontaneously cast any spell from their spellbook?:eek:
TheAnthroDM 07-27-07, 01:31 AM	So... Sorcerer gets a little better, and Wizard becomes a god?
Archangel_Tyrael 07-27-07, 01:32 AM	The ability to spontaneously cast any spell from their spellbook?:eek: Yeah, that's really, really overpowered.
runestar 07-27-07, 01:40 AM	I think the erudite might be what the OP has in mind. You have access to all the spells in your spellbook, but are limited to a few unique spells/day. Unfortunately, the spell point system is broken as hell, so a direct conversion is not really feasible...
Thakowsaizmu 07-27-07, 01:41 AM	I personally ignore the "prepared spells' thing for a Wizard in my campaigns and figure that as long as they have the book, they have the POWER! As for Sorceres, in my group we've toyed with things for the past seven years to make them a little better and have finally decided that they should also get bonus feats at first, fifth, 10th 15th and 20th level. We also added Perform to their skill list because it is always nice to have at least a few skills that relate to your most important ability (and my Girlfriend liked to have sorceresses that could dance well). So far those modifications have worked nicely.
Rhialto 07-27-07, 01:52 AM	I use a mana based system, so i thought I'd chime in. My wizards and sorcerers are merged together. They are one class, or, if you like, I dropped the sorcerer class. If you have your spellbooks at hand, and open on the right page, you can cast any spell directly from that spellbook. This is not recomended in combat. Simple Search (DC 10 + 1/10 pages in book, travelling spellbook typically has 50 pages) to flip to the right page as a standard action, then next round you can cast, and AoO on both rounds. Otherwise, you can memorise a number of spells (spells, not spell levels) equal to your class level + your Intelligence modifier. Any spell memorised can be spontaneously cast. You study your spell books to swap out spells. This can be done at any time, and takes 10 minutes per spell level to add a spell (dropping spells from memory is a free action). In addition, certain effects, mostly head trauma, can erase spells from memory until you next study your spells. I guess I could create sorcerers with a bigger memory for spells, but no spell books, or perhaps they need to engage in a lot of self-study (one week per spell level?) during character downtime to swap spells into memory. But there's no need for my campaign. My clerics work similarly, but use Wisdom in place of Intelligence.
scienceman47 07-27-07, 02:40 AM	Excuse me for suddenly dropping what little tact I can muster normally. The wizard adjustment is the worst fix I've ever seen. Its actually an antifix. Mechanically it destroys the game out n out, flavor-wise no amount of techo-magibabble can possibly justify having every spell in existance in one of a giant print run of a book. And your using the spell point system, which I've always felt is a great way to get your players to nuke through all encounters making anything lower than your high slot worthless.
zephyrTR 07-27-07, 02:42 AM	I dont understand how having access to all spells throughout the day as opposed to those you prepare make a wizard godly. It just makes them more versatile. Under the spellpoints system, a wizard merely makes a list of 'spells known' for the day. I'm just taking it a step further while imposing a new limitation on the class. Also the necessity for them to have their spellbook with them means they're potentially disarmable! I also think the search check for the right page is unnecessary. If a wizard originally was memorizing pages and pages of information every morning to cast spells, i think he can memorize where everything is in his spellbook. I consider it equivalent to drawing a weapon, and can be done while moving. The only question is should this then slow wizards down? IE prevent them from casting spells that require a full round action.
TheAnthroDM 07-27-07, 02:43 AM	I dont understand how having access to all spells throughout the day as opposed to those you prepare make a wizard godly. Then you're not doing it right. ;)
zephyrTR 07-27-07, 02:43 AM	And your using the spell point system, which I've always felt is a great way to get your players to nuke through all encounters making anything lower than your high slot worthless. let them use only their most powerful spells. See how long it takes for them to run out of MP. Also if you have enemy spellcasters using 'ray of exhaustion' that destroys their MP. Hehehe, necromancers for the win.
zephyrTR 07-27-07, 02:45 AM	Then you're not doing it right. ;) Would you mind explaining how this makes it too good? Also - if it is just too good, I can use the 200pgs spellbook rule in the PHB (Spells take up pages equal to their level). That still seems to make them too much like sorcerers. Perhaps 400 pages would be better, but still a limitation.
TheAnthroDM 07-27-07, 02:50 AM	Would you mind explaining how this makes it too good? ..Okay. One reason the Cleric is overpowered is it's access to every spell on an almost infinite list(assuming you have the supplements to make it bigger) now the Wizards spell list is more powerful, but they're restricted because they have to pay for more spells. Now they have Cleric casting and a more powerful spell list. Warforged Wizards in a game you run with this rule = Gods.
guru7892 07-27-07, 02:54 AM	remember, wizards are generaly annoying and know everything. sorcerers often bring the sexy back. I like brining the sexy back... eschew materials and a sorcerer is very sexy, not to mention meta magic is very powerful for sorcerers since they just kinda cast things when it is the most sexy to do so. wizards write their name in their underware and set it out for the week. They generaly say it is a 'time saver', but it isn't sexy. neither is preparing spells or luging around books. lets put it this way, if you had to sleep with a sorcerer or a wizard who would you sleep with? (if they're both male, I'll sleep on the couch, otherwise I go for the female sorcerer). remember, a sorcerer can use perform (dance) untrained get a moderate check and have girls swoon over him as he is one of the few men who don't mind dancing.
TheAnthroDM 07-27-07, 02:57 AM	I prefer intelligence. Bye Sorcerer, have fun with your AIDS.
Fireclave 07-27-07, 02:59 AM	I use a mana based system, so i thought I'd chime in. My wizards and sorcerers are merged together. They are one class, or, if you like, I dropped the sorcerer class. If you have your spellbooks at hand, and open on the right page, you can cast any spell directly from that spellbook. This is not recomended in combat. Simple Search (DC 10 + 1/10 pages in book, travelling spellbook typically has 50 pages) to flip to the right page as a standard action, then next round you can cast, and AoO on both rounds. Otherwise, you can memorise a number of spells (spells, not spell levels) equal to your class level + your Intelligence modifier. Any spell memorised can be spontaneously cast. You study your spell books to swap out spells. This can be done at any time, and takes 10 minutes per spell level to add a spell (dropping spells from memory is a free action). In addition, certain effects, mostly head trauma, can erase spells from memory until you next study your spells. I really like this variant! It definitely make the wizard feel more wizardy without being too powerful. I'm gonna steal and adapt this for my wizards, but personally I'd like to keep wizard and sorcerer separate classes(mostly because I like the idea of having book-learned casters contrasting with naturally talented casters). I guess I could create sorcerers with a bigger memory for spells, but no spell books, or perhaps they need to engage in a lot of self-study (one week per spell level?) during character downtime to swap spells into memory. But there's no need for my campaign. I think this is what I'm going to do for sorcerers. It always bothered me that the sorcerer learned an amateurishly small number of spells compared to the wizard. But giving them access to more spells known dramatically increases the power of the class which, while paling in comparison to the wizard the most important areas, is still a very strong class in its own right. Wow...it all seems so simple in retrospect... Three cookies for you :cookie::cookie::cookie:
Rhialto 07-27-07, 03:20 AM	Quick clarification on my spellbooks: "page" is more of a bookkepping term than a literal count of pages. It could represnt as many as a dozen actual physical pages. Basically, one "page" holds one level worth of spells, so the 50-page travelling spellbook can have up to 50 spell lvels of spells written into it. yes, I know. Bookmarks. But if you bookmark every page, you have, in effect, bookmarked none of them. You'd still need to search the bookmarks. Also, another way to distinguish sorcerers would be with a larger/smaller mana pool to play with. I'm not sure how that would affect balance though. Also, casting a spell from memory does NOT erase it from memory. Should be obvious, but just a clarification. Only head trauma and mind-damaging magic can do that.
Fireclave 07-27-07, 04:50 AM	Quick clarification on my spellbooks: "page" is more of a bookkepping term than a literal count of pages. It could represnt as many as a dozen actual physical pages. Basically, one "page" holds one level worth of spells, so the 50-page travelling spellbook can have up to 50 spell lvels of spells written into it. Never would have guessed that. Though I think I'd prefer to keep the search DC based on actual pages and not "pages," and perhaps adjusting the DC so mages with Blessed Books don't get hosed. I would think searching through a ten pages of 1st level spells would be easier than searching through then ninety pages of 9th level spells. But then again I prefer to google everything anyway, so what do I know :D yes, I know. Bookmarks. But if you bookmark every page, you have, in effect, bookmarked none of them. You'd still need to search the bookmarks. Actually, I would assume that most bookmarking systems would fail for that exact same reason. Though I can see a limited book marking system working by just highlighting a few of your most used spells. I would probably allow no more than 5 or 10 such bookmarks; any more and they would start to lose their quick referencing benefits. I can also see giving a wizard bonuses to his search checks for a properly organized, alphabetized spellbook. Also, another way to distinguish sorcerers would be with a larger/smaller mana pool to play with. I'm not sure how that would affect balance though. I'm going to shy away away from spell points because I think psionics does a better job with them. Also, casting a spell from memory does NOT erase it from memory. Should be obvious, but just a clarification. Only head trauma and mind-damaging magic can do that. That's what I assumed.
Rhialto 07-27-07, 07:24 AM	A few more bits of fluff... You can memorise a number of cantrips equal to the number of regular spells you can memorise. That's a very generous limit, and likely more than you'll ever have ijn your spell books. But cantrips are trivial magic anyway. My campaign world's clerics function like wizards, except they have "prayer books" instead of spellbooks, use Wisdom instead of Intelligence, and have a different spell list. They still need to obey $deity though - failure to keep within strictures can cause their deity to arbitarily restrict their spellcasting. A cleric whose deity has both rendered them illiterate (can't read their prayer books) and removed all spells from their memory (or perhaps reduced their mental capacity to memorise spells to some arbitarily low number) is quite effectively "guided" by their deity. In my campaign, spells from one deity's prayer books and scrolls can't generally be used by those of another deity, as the spells are subtly different.
Steely_Dan 07-27-07, 08:53 AM	I prefer intelligence. Bye Sorcerer, have fun with your AIDS. Wow, that's really offensive.
runestar 07-27-07, 10:39 AM	I dont understand how having access to all spells throughout the day as opposed to those you prepare make a wizard godly. It just makes them more versatile. And it is this versatility which makes them all the more powerful. What is not to like about always having the perfect spell in response to any given scenario? You no longer have to worry about memorizing the wrong spells. No more gnashing your teeth at having prepared fireball when you run into a red dragon. Why do you think that sorcs do not learn additional spells past lv20? To prevent them from eventually knowing every single spell in the game (or at least, the majority of the more useful ones).
zephyrTR 07-27-07, 11:26 AM	1 - I like this prayerbook idea. That sounds neat, but I don't want to turn clerics into wizards. I'll have to think on this and try to find a meaningful way to incorporate it. 2 - Runestar, your latest post - - there are feats that allow you to change the element of a spell. Also, smart wizards tend to constantly use divination spells in their past time to learn what might be needed. I believe I'm going to go ahead with my wizard plans and see what happens. If that makes them too powerful I'll install search checks for them to find the right page. I'd still like to stress that under this ruling, a wizard can be disarmed. That's really scary for a wizard, cause since magic is all they have, if they can't cast they're really screwed.
Far_Traveler 07-27-07, 12:40 PM	I actually made a PrC of something like this, in essence they gained a special book that they crafted that they can draw power out of to cast many spells without losing slots (drew out of a pool, mostly nuke spells)at the cost of always needing that book to cast (but no other somatic components, as using the book requires two hands, ASF still applied) as well as their original spellbooks to prepare their spells.
Archangel_Tyrael 07-27-07, 04:42 PM	12 - Runestar, your latest post - - there are feats that allow you to change the element of a spell. This was exactly Runestar's point! If you allow a Wizard to cast spontaneously, and he gets his entire Spellbook to cast from, he's invincible! No more: "Oops, I'm out of damage spells." or "Crud, no more Dimension Doors.". He always has the perfect spell for everything, every time. Also, smart wizards tend to constantly use divination spells in their past time to learn what might be needed. I believe I'm going to go ahead with my wizard plans and see what happens. If that makes them too powerful I'll install search checks for them to find the right page. I'd still like to stress that under this ruling, a wizard can be disarmed. That's really scary for a wizard, cause since magic is all they have, if they can't cast they're really screwed. This situation could never happen in your system, though. Divination would never be used--why would a wizard need it? He has all his spells at his disposal. He couldn't ever be disarmed either--not with a Dimension Door always on hand.
Rhialto 07-27-07, 05:20 PM	1 - I like this prayerbook idea. That sounds neat, but I don't want to turn clerics into wizards. I'll have to think on this and try to find a meaningful way to incorporate it. The reason I incorporated the prayerbook concept is that otherwise, clerics have exactly the same issue that a wizard would have; a spellbook that effectively includes every spell in every splatbook. I did consider trying to set up something similar to 2nd edition's divine spheres, but that would be way too much work. That prayerbook basically allows me to implement what i would be doing with divine spheres, except I don't need to think ahead of time what spells would be available for each deity. I'll admit, I'm not entirely happy with the flavour prayer books generate either. It works for the specific campaign world, but it makes a poor substitute for the generic cleric.
runestar 07-27-07, 10:40 PM	2 - Runestar, your latest post - - there are feats that allow you to change the element of a spell. Also, smart wizards tend to constantly use divination spells in their past time to learn what might be needed. I believe I'm going to go ahead with my wizard plans and see what happens. If that makes them too powerful I'll install search checks for them to find the right page. I'd still like to stress that under this ruling, a wizard can be disarmed. That's really scary for a wizard, cause since magic is all they have, if they can't cast they're really screwed. Yes, but stuff like energy substitution and mastery of elements are not that readily attainable. For energy sub, you must burn 2 feats, and the choice is not retroactive unless you are a sorc (memorizing a cold fireball is no more clever than simply memorizing a fireball if you have little idea on what you are facing). Mastery of elements requires lvs in archmage, which is a long way off (lv15+). Either way, you are not getting either without a significant investment in resources. I am not sure how you use divination spells in your game either, but they shouldn't be granting perfect knowledge (ah, I foresee that I will be facing a red dragon protected with energy immunity to all 5 elements and yadda...Now that I know exactly what his tactics will be, I can now memorize the perfect repertoire of spells to deal with said threat). They would be general guidelines at best. I am not sure what to make of the search checks and disarm attempts. Seems quite clunky. I mean - now, you have a wizard desperately fumbling through his spellbook to find the correct spells in the heat of battle. How is that professional and cinematic?:confused:
TheAnthroDM 07-28-07, 06:21 AM	Wow, that's really offensive. To who? Sorcerers? O.o You can't be offensive to people that don't exist.
Optimized_Commoner 07-29-07, 01:26 AM	Nobody I've ever met who's even played DnD once enjoys preparing spells. Hi there ZephyrTR, nice to meet you. I'm O.C. ... In case my humour slipped past, I'm saying that I enjoy preparing spells. And then Sorcerers - does anyone else feel they're gimped in comparison to Wizards? Yes. Yes I do. Not that it really matters because being gimped in comparison to a wizard is like being handicaped compared to an olympic athlete.
Watsyurname529 07-29-07, 06:09 PM	After reading everything, here are my opinions: 1. Giving a Wizard access to every spell in his spellbook would make him extremely more powerful because there are a whole bunch more spells for Wizards, that both do incredible damage and the list is much more versatile. Also, that would be extremely annoying to search through the spell comendium to find the spell anyway. Also, I'm pretty sure a Wizard couldn't carry that many books with him. 2. I do like the prayerbook idea, it's a good idea (in my opinion) since they [divine spellcasters] get everything in the kitchen sink; although I would still probably give them more spells than wizards so the players don't feel like they've been nerfed too bad. 3. I do however, give my Wizards 3 spells every level and give them time to learn new spells when they can and if they have the gold. 4. Giving the Wizard the ability to swap out spells when needed, as long as they have their spellbook, is an interesting idea. I would though put a few limits on it like you still only can cast X number of spells per day, you need to have a spell slot open to swap, the spell must be equal or lower level to swap, and it takes 10mins per spell level (that way they can swap out more powerful spells as quickly when needed and they virtually can do it in combat. These are just my opinions and I just might use the prayer book idea. It'll depend on how my players react and stuff.
Manyfist 07-29-07, 06:26 PM	I'd switch Erudite with Wizard and Psionics with Magic... bamn... fixed. Wizard has potentially unlimited # of spells however they only have limited # of unique slots which fill up every time they cast a spell. Sorcerer would be more less like the Ardent.
TiwazTyrsfist 07-29-07, 07:36 PM	So, I consider the biggest acceptable buff you can give wizards to be given them a Daily Spells Known list. I.E. if Tim can cast four third level spells, he can prepare four thrid level spells. Then he can use his four castings for any combination of those four spells. If he prepares Dispel Magic, Fireball, Blink, and Haste, he can cast any of those four spells, up to a total of four castings of third level spells. (Fireball, Fireball, Blink, Haste OR Blink, Dispel, Dispel, Dispel, OR Haste, Dispel, Blink, Blink, Etc) Having an, in effect, infinate spell known list is so over powered I can't even begin to describe it.
CaoSlayer 07-30-07, 07:48 AM	I would allow wizards to cast any spell in their spellbook if adding a spell to a spellbook were expensible. I meant prices similar to armor and weapon enchantment, saying that by example that 4 level 1 spells to have the same price of a +1 weapon and 4 level 9 spells the price of a +9 weapon.
runestar 07-30-07, 08:07 AM	So, I consider the biggest acceptable buff you can give wizards to be given them a Daily Spells Known list. Isn't that basically the erudite?
zephyrTR 07-30-07, 01:22 PM	After much thought, considering your posts, and sleepless nights - here's what I came up with. What do you think? Skills A Wizard’s base skill point modifier has been increased from 2 to 4. Also, add Use Magic Device to the list of wizard skills. Open Book Casting Wizards do not prepare spells ahead of time in the conventional sense , but rather have access, potentially, to all spells in their spellbook as long as they have the book in front of them to read from. Spellbooks are innately magical items and so reveal themselves to their wielder a bit more each level as per the PHB rules with one exception: the DM chooses the wizard’s free spells from leveling up, leaving the wizard to track down scrolls of magic he really wants. This feature is put into place so young, careless wizards don’t accidentally rip open a dimensional hole attempting to control magics much stronger than they are. As a side note, being a magical book, a spellbook’s amount of pages don’t make sense from a logical standpoint. In fact, a spellbook could possibly contain an infinite amount of pages. They may magically bookmark spells in their spellbook equal to the amount of spells they could normally prepare under normal PHB rules (excluding bonuses from a high INT). Any other spell requires a Use Magic Device check DC15 to find; unlike other uses of this skill, this check functions exactly like drawing a weapon. Wizards may attempt to cast a spell without their spellbook given a Spellcraft check DC 20 + spell level (-4 penalty to their roll if they've never successfully cast the spell before, +2 bonus if it's from their specialized school). If they fail, 'bad things can happen' such as point blank explosions, retargeting, status effects…
Watsyurname529 07-30-07, 02:38 PM	After much thought, considering your posts, and sleepless nights - here's what I came up with. What do you think? Skills A Wizard’s base skill point modifier has been increased from 2 to 4. Also, add Use Magic Device to the list of wizard skills. Open Book Casting Wizards do not prepare spells ahead of time in the conventional sense , but rather have access, potentially, to all spells in their spellbook as long as they have the book in front of them to read from. Spellbooks are innately magical items and so reveal themselves to their wielder a bit more each level as per the PHB rules with one exception: the DM chooses the wizard’s free spells from leveling up, leaving the wizard to track down scrolls of magic he really wants. This feature is put into place so young, careless wizards don’t accidentally rip open a dimensional hole attempting to control magics much stronger than they are. As a side note, being a magical book, a spellbook’s amount of pages don’t make sense from a logical standpoint. In fact, a spellbook could possibly contain an infinite amount of pages. They may magically bookmark spells in their spellbook equal to the amount of spells they could normally prepare under normal PHB rules (excluding bonuses from a high INT). Any other spell requires a Use Magic Device check DC15 to find; unlike other uses of this skill, this check functions exactly like drawing a weapon. Wizards may attempt to cast a spell without their spellbook given a Spellcraft check DC 20 + spell level (-4 penalty to their roll if they've never successfully cast the spell before, +2 bonus if it's from their specialized school). If they fail, 'bad things can happen' such as point blank explosions, retargeting, status effects… That is an interesting idea. Though I might change it to instead of a UMD check to a Spellcraft or even a Search check, but thats just me, as well as the DM picking spells; I would let them pick, but as usual, if its not in the PHB make them check it with me. And I would still probably have a page limit. So far the two Ideas that I've liked and might playtest, is the one above, or the one that allows Wizards to swap out spells whenever they have their spellbooks, but it takes upwards to an hour to do so. I'm leaning toward the latter, but thats me and my opinions.
zephyrTR 07-30-07, 03:21 PM	thanks! I like my idea particularly because a) forces wizards to seem more wizardlike what with their books out all the time b) makes them (potentially) disarmable, thus making them more vulnerable even at higher levels. also i decided on UMD since I'm considering a spellbook a magical object - and wizards should get that ability since most of them are the ones CREATING the magical devices. Spellcraft is identifying spells that are being or have been used so that doesnt fit. Search is close, but again the pages of a spellbook aren't mundane, so a mundane skill like search doesn't fit.
Rhialto 07-30-07, 04:01 PM	Really? The fact that it forces wizards to carry their books open to do their core class functions reliably strikes me a a weak point of that house rule. While there probably are examples in literature in which wizards only ever reliably cast spells from books, those are quite far apart. I also don't like teh concept of a spellbook being a magica item that, potentially, contain all spells in existence, if only the wizard knew where to look inside it. To me, a spellbook contains only those spells that its owner wrote into it. My concept is rather more mundane I guess. Still, both can work, depending on your campaign concept.
Tomkin 07-31-07, 10:10 PM	That's a cool idea. I'm going to try and persuade my DM to let me use a modified version for my next campaign. Here it is, thoughts? WIZARD VARIANT Wizards gain spell slots as written in the PHB. A wizard may memorize 1 spell of each level he or she can cast. This increases to 2 spells of each level at 10th level. A wizard recieves bonus spells memorized equal to his bonus spells per day of the same level. Memorized spells may be cast at any time (without the aid of a spellbook) by using a spell slot of the appropriate level. If a wizard does not have a spell memorized, he may search through his spellbook to find it. This takes a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity and requires a Search check (DC 15 +1 per 10 pages of the spellbook). When the wizard has found the spell, he may cast it by using a spell slot of the appropriate level. Alternately, he may spend 1 minute per level of the spell in question to swap it out for one of his memorized spells. Due to the magical nature of the spellbook, mundane bookmarks tend not to last more than 1d10 minutes before disintegrating, rusting away, turning into a butterfly, or simply vanishing completely. However, arcane mark may be used to magically "bookmark" a page, obviating the need for a Search check. This usage of arcane mark lasts for 24 hours. A wizard may only bookmark a number of spells equal to his Intelligence modifier before confusing the bookmarks. METAMAGIC Metamagic feats operate differently. Instead of being applied to spells on preparation, metamagic feats are memorized independently of spells and inscribed into spellbooks just as spells are. Memorizing a metamagic feat requires a slot of level equal to the level adjustment of the feat (an empower spell requires a second-level slot, for example). Spells modified by a metamagic feat take longer to cast as if the caster were a sorcerer, except that quickened spells are still a free action. Metamagicked spells still take up a spell slot of the new level, rather than the old one. Metamagic feats may also be looked up in a spellbook, but doing so in difficult and the caster must succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + 2 * spell level) or fail to cast the spell (the spell slot is not lost). Quicken Spell may not be applied directly from a spellbook. FEATS Quick Turner [Spellcaster] Prerequisites: Spellcaster level 1st, cast spells from a spellbook. Benefit: The time it takes you to find a spell in your spellbook is a move action. You may always take 10 on Search checks to find spells in your spellbook. Finding a spell still provokes attacks of opportunity. Normal: Finding a spell in your spellbook is a full-round action. WOUNDROUS ITEMS Mage's bookmark This bookmark will save a page of a wizard's spellbook, allowing him to find a certain spell without a Search check. A mage's bookmak counts as half a bookmark for the purposes of bookmark limits. Faint universal; CL 1st; Craft Wondrous Item, Arcane Mark; Price 500 gp.
Forfeit 08-01-07, 08:32 AM	Wizards are the surgeons of the magic world. They need to know what they are going to do, what will be expected out of them, what tools should they use and when to use it. To use a generalist spell caster, change to the sorceror. That is why wizards have divination spells, to know what is coming for them, while the sorceror doesnt need to prepare ahead of time, since he is always ready. And wizards spend at least one hour of every single day studying the spells.
Rustmonster 08-01-07, 09:11 AM	If they fail, 'bad things can happen' such as point blank explosions, retargeting, status effects… NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!! Critical fumbles are NOT YOUR FRIEND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
steenan 08-02-07, 07:08 AM	I would rebuild a wizard in a more drastic way. I think it reflects the flavour of this class much better than the PHB version. Ihe only thing I am not sure is if it is resonably balanced or not... In my version the wizard has neither spell slots nor spell points. The spellbook is very important for him, as in other variants described in this thread. He has definitely lower per-encounter impact than PHB version, but nearly unlimited out-of-combat casting - as I see wizards as rather utility casters than blasters. A maximum level of a spell (or of a slot of a spell affected by a metamagic feat) a wizard may cast is (level+1)/2, as in PHB version. A wizard has three different ways to cast his spells: 1. Book casting: A wizard may cast any spell of a level available to him that he has scribed in his spellbook. It may be done unlimited times per day. Book casting uses all normal components and takes one minute per spell level (5 rounds for cantrips) or the normal casting time, whichever is higher. The wizard must be able to read his spellbook for the whole time of casting and must be fully concentrated. Metamagic feats increase casting time appropriately to "slot level" increase. 2. Mastered spells: A 1-st level wizard begins play having mastered a number of cantrips equal to half of his intelligence modifier, one of which must be Read Magic. These spells may be cast unlimited times per day, with normal (PHB) casting time, without the spellbook. At every level the wizard masters another cantrip or improves his skill with an already mastered one. The second option lets him ignore one of the components of the chosen cantrip (thus, a thrice-mastered Prestidigitation needs no components at all, being effectively stilled and silenced). Starting at level 10 a wizard is able to master first-level spells; starting at level 20, second-level spells. 3. Prepared spells: With book casting being too slow and mastered spells too weak, prepared spells are the wizard's way to be useful in combat. A wizard may have up to his class level in spell levels prepared at a time (for example, an 8-level wizard may prepare 2 4th level spells, or a 3rd-level spell, 2 2nd-level spells and a 1st-level spell), with cantrips counting as 1st-level spells. The preparation of a spell is performed exactly as casting it from a book and may be done any time. The prepared spell may then be cast (released) with one-action casting time (no mater what the original casting time was) and without material components (because they were already consumed during preparation). All prepared spells need a focus. If a spell itself does not have one, the wizard preparing it chooses a focus, which must be a magical or masterwork ring, wand, rod or staff. If wand, rod or staff is used, all ranged touch attacks with spells get +1 bonus to the attack roll. Still spell and Silent spell metamagic feats let a wizard ignore verbal and somatic components of a spell both during preparation and during release. What do you think of that?
zephyrTR 08-02-07, 11:32 AM	very interesting stuff to say the least. I kinda like it.
zzo38 08-02-07, 02:13 PM	I would rebuild a wizard in a more drastic way. I think it reflects the flavour of this class much better than the PHB version. Ihe only thing I am not sure is if it is resonably balanced or not... In my version the wizard has neither spell slots nor spell points. The spellbook is very important for him, as in other variants described in this thread. He has definitely lower per-encounter impact than PHB version, but nearly unlimited out-of-combat casting - as I see wizards as rather utility casters than blasters. A maximum level of a spell (or of a slot of a spell affected by a metamagic feat) a wizard may cast is (level+1)/2, as in PHB version. A wizard has three different ways to cast his spells: 1. Book casting: A wizard may cast any spell of a level available to him that he has scribed in his spellbook. It may be done unlimited times per day. Book casting uses all normal components and takes one minute per spell level (5 rounds for cantrips) or the normal casting time, whichever is higher. The wizard must be able to read his spellbook for the whole time of casting and must be fully concentrated. Metamagic feats increase casting time appropriately to "slot level" increase. 2. Mastered spells: A 1-st level wizard begins play having mastered a number of cantrips equal to half of his intelligence modifier, one of which must be Read Magic. These spells may be cast unlimited times per day, with normal (PHB) casting time, without the spellbook. At every level the wizard masters another cantrip or improves his skill with an already mastered one. The second option lets him ignore one of the components of the chosen cantrip (thus, a thrice-mastered Prestidigitation needs no components at all, being effectively stilled and silenced). Starting at level 10 a wizard is able to master first-level spells; starting at level 20, second-level spells. 3. Prepared spells: With book casting being too slow and mastered spells too weak, prepared spells are the wizard's way to be useful in combat. A wizard may have up to his class level in spell levels prepared at a time (for example, an 8-level wizard may prepare 2 4th level spells, or a 3rd-level spell, 2 2nd-level spells and a 1st-level spell), with cantrips counting as 1st-level spells. The preparation of a spell is performed exactly as casting it from a book and may be done any time. The prepared spell may then be cast (released) with one-action casting time (no mater what the original casting time was) and without material components (because they were already consumed during preparation). All prepared spells need a focus. If a spell itself does not have one, the wizard preparing it chooses a focus, which must be a magical or masterwork ring, wand, rod or staff. If wand, rod or staff is used, all ranged touch attacks with spells get +1 bonus to the attack roll. Still spell and Silent spell metamagic feats let a wizard ignore verbal and somatic components of a spell both during preparation and during release. What do you think of that? I would treat 0 level spells as 1/2 level for preparation purposes, as well as adding spell points per day for any type of casting (but make it a extremely huge number of points). With a large number of points you can still do it mostly like described here (it is very unlikely you will run out of spell points), but if you try to use magic way too often in one day, you might run out of spell points. Other than the changes I described, I think it is good! Also, book casting should always requires movement and stuff, although arcane spell failure chance for armor only applies if the spell has a somatic component, if the spell has no somatic component, the movement required to use the spellbook doesn't impose spell failure chance.
Rustmonster 08-02-07, 03:17 PM	I think this thread should be renamed to: "Wizards & Sorcerers - why they do not fit my idea of what a magic user is" MY wizards do NOT use fruity wands and say "Flippin-Floop!" to cast a spell, thank you very much. :D
tantric 08-02-07, 04:24 PM	1)get rid of wizards 2)sorcerers use spellbooks to learn new spells - new spells must be acquired through roleplaying, they do NOT appear in the sorcerer's head when leveling up. 1st lvl has only spells known in spellbook. 3)sorcerers can cast spells they don't know from a spellbook. DC is 10+spell level vs Spellcraft ROLLED ON 3D6. natural 3 is always a crit failure, 18 is always a crit success (she now knows the spell). result: spellbooks become real treasure items, but carrying them around is optional. taking chances with bookcasting can make your character more powerful.
concerro 08-02-07, 11:14 PM	I dont understand how having access to all spells throughout the day as opposed to those you prepare make a wizard godly. It just makes them more versatile. Under the spellpoints system, a wizard merely makes a list of 'spells known' for the day. I'm just taking it a step further while imposing a new limitation on the class. Also the necessity for them to have their spellbook with them means they're potentially disarmable! I also think the search check for the right page is unnecessary. If a wizard originally was memorizing pages and pages of information every morning to cast spells, i think he can memorize where everything is in his spellbook. I consider it equivalent to drawing a weapon, and can be done while moving. The only question is should this then slow wizards down? IE prevent them from casting spells that require a full round action. First you need to remember that each spell is that number of pages ie.... level 1 spells are one page and level 6 spells are six pages. There is no way that wizard can read and cast a spell that less than 6 seconds. That is why it is memorized. I dont really agree with the arcane situation either, but maybe one day they will change it. I hope they do something to make the sorcerer's charisma useful.
concerro 08-02-07, 11:16 PM	1)get rid of wizards 2)sorcerers use spellbooks to learn new spells - new spells must be acquired through roleplaying, they do NOT appear in the sorcerer's head when leveling up. 1st lvl has only spells known in spellbook. 3)sorcerers can cast spells they don't know from a spellbook. DC is 10+spell level vs Spellcraft ROLLED ON 3D6. natural 3 is always a crit failure, 18 is always a crit success (she now knows the spell). result: spellbooks become real treasure items, but carrying them around is optional. taking chances with bookcasting can make your character more powerful. number 2 might work in exalted, but D&D it is no good. There are many players who play the game more for the fight, than for the RP'ing
ideasmith 08-03-07, 03:43 AM	Are you quite certain of that? To who? Sorcerers? O.o You can't be offensive to people that don't exist.
TheAnthroDM 08-03-07, 01:19 PM	Are you quite certain of that? Yes, I'm completely certain that no one can control arcane power that doesn't exist, and that anyone who believes they can, is loony. :D
zephyrTR 08-03-07, 04:54 PM	how does 'memorizing' a spell let you say all the verbal components faster? Also - I always thought that the amount of pages a spell took up didn't mean that it was all writing. I imagined a good portion of it was drawings of the required hand-signs, magical runes or symbols and other such things. Either way, I could write up like 5 pages on why this 'makes sense' from a RP or "6 seconds a round" standpoint, but the fact of the matter is a lot of logistics regarding magic are glossed over in any fantasy game. I just wanted to hear what people thought about this regarding added flavor, and maybe nerfs. Seriously it gives wizard more versatility BUT it also makes them disarmable. I think thats a step in the right direction.
Moniker 08-03-07, 05:47 PM	Just allow Wizards to cast any spell they know per the limit of spells they can cast a day in the PHB. A book isn't even really neccessary, with exception for the rest and study needed at the beginning of the day to replentish slots. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. The answer's simple. ;)
ideasmith 08-03-07, 07:00 PM	My question must not be as clear as I thought it was. What I meant to ask was: Are you quite certain that you can't offend people who don't exist? Yes, I'm completely certain that no one can control arcane power that doesn't exist, and that anyone who believes they can, is loony. :D
TheAnthroDM 08-04-07, 01:56 AM	My question must not be as clear as I thought it was. What I meant to ask was: Are you quite certain that you can't offend people who don't exist? Hmmm... now THAT is a good question, I suppose it does depend on how much thick a barrier lies between the character's reality, and the true reality that we lived in. That is to say, how much of the real world is aligned with the fiction. So while I suppose you can offend someone that doesn't exist, in this case it would be unlikely.
Shiftkitty 08-05-07, 07:28 PM	Back on topic, we set it up so that a spellcaster can throw any spell of his level or lower. Using the Arcane Age supplements, we blew away the level limitations on magic. The governor to this is that the level of the spell represents the number of turns a mortal being has to wait before they can cast the spell again. Try to cast it too early, and there's a 10% chance per early turn of the spell going horribly wrong, possibly even turning itself on the caster. One cleric took a chance and exploded like a pinata from hell. I don't have any sorceror's so far, so I haven't seen how this system affects them or makes them different from a Wizard except in role-playing.
Holy_Beholder 08-05-07, 08:32 PM	how does 'memorizing' a spell let you say all the verbal components faster? Memorizing the spell is when you go through the long process of casting it most of the way. Then when you finish the job, it casts. Finishing, putting in the last step is much faster than going through the entire thing.