| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Ryan_Singer05-04-04, 11:25 AM | A player approached me asking if I would allow Gestalts, and I have been considering it. What do you guys think of allowing a gestalt character in the game, but with a LA of 2 that they can never lose. Do you think this balances them with the rest of the party? Do you think a gestalt character is still interesting under that rule? I like it because a single-class character will get essential class abilities two levels earlier, but I'm still not sure whether all my players would be gestalt like that, some of them would be, or none.-Ryan |
| ZebRaderJedi05-04-04, 06:03 PM | I've heard that +2 LA seems to work for some groups. I for one would love to re-do my 2e F/M (currently a 3.5 F/W/SpG, levels 4/6/7, see sig for SpG) into a flat Gestalt 15 F/W (ECL 17). In 2e we left him at 12/12 IIRC, and gained a level using 3.0 for level 17 overall. His HP, Caster Level, BAB and maaaaybe saves would all be higher. Hmmm...be interesting to see what he looks like, though I don't think the GM will go for it since we've playing as-is for a while....heh. Anyone else actually used the +2 LA? Any indications of abuse? Hope it works out, Zeb |
| Lina_Inverse05-04-04, 06:18 PM | the rules state 50% stronger.gestalt charecters are ECL+1.id say gestalt is the best priced LA ever. |
| Laelenie05-04-04, 06:22 PM | Originally posted by ZebRaderJedi I've heard that +2 LA seems to work for some groups. I for one would love to re-do my 2e F/M (currently a 3.5 F/W/SpG, levels 4/6/7, see sig for SpG) into a flat Gestalt 15 F/W (ECL 17). In 2e we left him at 12/12 IIRC, and gained a level using 3.0 for level 17 overall. His HP, Caster Level, BAB and maaaaybe saves would all be higher. Hmmm...be interesting to see what he looks like, though I don't think the GM will go for it since we've playing as-is for a while....heh. Anyone else actually used the +2 LA? Any indications of abuse? Hope it works out, Zeb La +2 is Totally abusable. Wizard 18 Cleric 6/ Prestige Paladin 3/Hospitaler 9/ Nets you BAB +17 divine grace 4 figther bonus feats Cleric casting 17wiz 18 many bonus metamagic feat Wizard 3/Mystic theurge 10/Wizard 5 Cleric 3/Swashbuckler3/Figther2/Barbarian1/hexblade 2 3/Contemplative 1/Windwalker 4 Nets yo bab +17 wiz casting 18 cleric casting 18 int to damage cha to save twice for spells rage 2 bonus domains many bonus feats. NONONO. LA +2 is WAAAY TOO LOW. |
| Lina_Inverse05-04-04, 07:00 PM | Originally posted by Laelenie La +2 is Totally abusable. Wizard 18 Cleric 6/ Prestige Paladin 3/Hospitaler 9/ Nets you BAB +17 divine grace 4 figther bonus feats Cleric casting 17wiz 18 many bonus metamagic feat Wizard 3/Mystic theurge 10/Wizard 5 Cleric 3/Swashbuckler3/Figther2/Barbarian1/hexblade 2 3/Contemplative 1/Windwalker 4 Nets yo bab +17 wiz casting 18 cleric casting 18 int to damage cha to save twice for spells rage 2 bonus domains many bonus feats. NONONO. LA +2 is WAAAY TOO LOW. hospitlar is broke on its own,and with any PrC is up to dm whim.mystic theurg happens to be banned to gestalts,and in such a caimpaign i would assume to normal people too. and still the system itself admits there only 50% stronger,therefore LA+1 or perhaps +2 |
| eclipticavatar05-04-04, 08:15 PM | I would make a rule that gestalt characters can't multiclass. Then they can also only take one prestige class, maybe even make it override both base class properties. |
| Kastas05-05-04, 12:14 AM | I think that's a good idea. Not all PrCs would be unbalanced, of course, but the potential for abuse is too great. At the very least, I'd carefully look over any proposed multiclass combos. And remember, similar bonuses from two different classes do not stack; you simply take the better of the two. |
| askala305-05-04, 02:27 AM | Orginally posted by Laelenie Wizard 18 Cleric 6/ Prestige Paladin 3/Hospitaler 9/ … Wizard 3/Mystic theurge 10/Wizard 5 Cleric 3/Swashbuckler3/Figther2/Barbarian1/hexblade 2 3/Contemplative 1/Windwalker 4 Both builds are questionable. Build two breaks one of the gestalt rules, i.e. it uses a class that is a class combination (Mystic Theurge being Cleric + Wizard). Arguably Hospitaler in build one also breaks this rule (Fighter + Cleric). For gestalt, I use LA +2. However, I make the character pick one core class that they are gestalting with. I.e. Rogue 18 + Fighter 6/Disciple of Dispater 8/ Ninja of the Crescent Moon 4. Basically, the player picks a core class that they will always be gaining levels in, and they add classes on top of the straight class build. |
| Aetherine05-05-04, 06:16 AM | Reguardless of what Gestalt rules they break, no DM in their right mind would let someone do it. At least, a Talented DM. Don't bring up an arguement based off from Theorycraft folks - if you have an honest-to-god useful comment, share. Don't throw a seventeen-seperate-class build at us saying "omg every1 cood use dis." Use Common Sense. Right now I'm running some Acid Tests with a Ghestalt Fighter/Sorcerer, a Pixie Fighter, and a simple Fighter3/Sorcerer3. I'm getting an odd feeling that, to date, the Gestalt is only three levels better than everyone else - but I'm taking them to ECL 20, so we'll see then. |
| Tenzhi05-05-04, 07:45 AM | I'm using the Level-Independent XP Award system and I simply require twice as much XP per level for a regular Gestalt (which coincidentally works out to +2 LA in the end). I also allow triple-classed-gestalts for thrice as much XP per level. However, there are limitations placed on such double- and triple-classed builds: Each class taken as part of a Gestalt must be one of the four primary classes (Fighter, Mage, Cleric, or Wizard). If a character's favoured class is one of the four primary classes he may use it in combination with any class as part of a double-class combination. If a character's favoured class is one of the secondary classes he may use it in any double- or triple-class combination. If a character has favoured class "any" then he can take any combination of primary and secondary classes. Also, the class chosen at the character's creation is the character's class for their entire career with very few exceptions (there are rules for adding levels of a class to your existing single-classed character or double-class gestalt to create a double- or triple-classed gestalt respectively (and tentative rules for banking XP in similar fashion to acquire a PrC later on at the earliest possible opportunity)). |
| Nazzareth05-05-04, 09:15 AM | LA of +2 is so wrong. gestalts are 50% more powerfull this scales up as character levels increase. 4th level gestalt = 6th level character a 10th level gestalt = 15 level character, a 20th gestalt = 30th level character. heres how I run gestalt classes. 1st level LA= +1 then it increases by +1 at every five character levels. +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th, +4 at 15th, +5 at 20th etc. Plus these two rules 1) gestalt can not!!! multiclass, but they can take PRC's. 2) However one of their classes has to their races favoured class. This makes gestalt more like 2nd ed multi-classing |
| Tenzhi05-05-04, 09:53 AM | Originally posted by Nazzareth LA of +2 is so wrong. Not really - two full-fledged 18th level characters would be more powerful than an 18/18 Gestalt and would have an EL of 20 making them the equivalent of a 20th level character. At least, that's what the system tells us. |
| Laelenie05-05-04, 03:45 PM | Originally posted by Tenzhi Not really - two full-fledged 18th level characters would be more powerful than an 18/18 Gestalt and would have an EL of 20 making them the equivalent of a 20th level character. At least, that's what the system tells us. You really don't get the point of the rules. 2x18th= 1x20th ???? Encounter levels are rubbish. a giant with 5 level of rogue is CR 20 thus being a challenge for 3-4 ECL 19-20 chars ?!?!??!?!!? EL and CR really suck. ANd even if you don't allow multiclassing Figther 18/Wizard18 is a scaring combination not to mention Cleric 18/wizard 18 let them take LA+2 and you will ruin balance after level 6-7 |
| tiornys05-05-04, 04:42 PM | Have you actually playtested Gestalts? I recently ran a one-shot involving a group of high powered lvl 10 Gestalt characters (stats equivalent to 38 point buy), and treating them as about level 13-14 (+2 for gestalt, +1-2 for the stats) was working out quite well. By your theory, they should have been as powerful as level 15 characters even before modifying for the stats, and therefore should have been destroying the encounters I was throwing at them. What you may be forgetting is that, while Gestalt characters have access to the abilities of 2 characters, they still only get one standard and one move-equivalent action per round, which prevents them from using all of those abilities at the same time. Certainly there is a certain amount of synergy, especially on the defensive side, as well as greatly increased flexibility. As others have noted, and my experience shows, a +2 LA is about right. t~ edit: BTW, assuming we do believe that Gestalts are 150% as good as standards (which is a good rule of thumb as long as you don't try to treat levels linearly), then losing two full Gestalt levels is about equivalent to losing 3 normal levels. Just something else to think about. |
| Cthulthoth_the_Callin_Chaos05-05-04, 05:41 PM | Originally posted by Laelenie You really don't get the point of the rules. 2x18th= 1x20th ???? Encounter levels are rubbish. a giant with 5 level of rogue is CR 20 thus being a challenge for 3-4 ECL 19-20 chars ?!?!??!?!!? EL and CR really suck. ANd even if you don't allow multiclassing Figther 18/Wizard18 is a scaring combination not to mention Cleric 18/wizard 18 let them take LA+2 and you will ruin balance after level 6-7 First off, ECL is Effective Character Level, not Challenge Rating. A hill giant with 5 levels of rogue has a CR of X+5 (X because I can't remember the CR of the hill giant right now). ECL measures the effective potency of a monstrous character, as long as they are equipped like PCs of their effective level. EL is encounter level. Fighter 18/Wizard 18 isn't abusive; a wizard-fighter still can't wear armor, for instance, and unless he wants to balance Intelligence for magic AND Dexterity to keep from being hit, he's going to be cutting his efficency SOMEWHERE. Ditto Cleric 18 and Wizard 18. The cleric wears no armor in order to cast wizard spells with any digree of regularity, and the BAB isn't even as good as the fighter's. And Wisdom and Intelligence are going to be lower than a pure cleric or pure wizard. You're either a cleric or a wizard, and you're not a cleric 20 or a wizard 20; you're two levels behind, meaning you're a number of spells short for both classes. |
| Lina_Inverse05-05-04, 07:38 PM | Originally posted by Laelenie You really don't get the point of the rules. 2x18th= 1x20th ???? Encounter levels are rubbish. a giant with 5 level of rogue is CR 20 thus being a challenge for 3-4 ECL 19-20 chars ?!?!??!?!!? EL and CR really suck. then go play 2E :behold: no serisly if you cant reconcile with CRs go play another game,duuurr. 2 18th levels are equal to a 20th.you forgot the MAGIC ITEMS!didnt you >_> a giant should not have 5 levels of rogue,rogue is not NEARLY optimum.give him a +5CR template though..... just to inform everyone,check the exp table.1 level indicates +50% more powerful.therefore LA+2 is fine for gestalts since they will of course have the magic items.and funnily be the same EL as 2 chars of there level..... |
| Tenzhi05-06-04, 12:48 AM | Originally posted by Laelenie You really don't get the point of the rules. The "point" of these particular rules is to make it easier to maintain balance. Whether they work or not is debatable. 2x18th= 1x20th ???? That's what the rules say. Encounter levels are rubbish. They seem better thought out than LA and ECL, but I don't vouch for their reliability. let them take LA+2 and you will ruin balance after level 6-7 Not really. As I said before, I'm using the Level Independent XP Award variant and charging double-class gestalts double XP per level which works out to a +2 LA in the end. At double XP per level the player could run two seperate characters and get them to the same levels as their one gestalt character in the same amount of time. And the gestalt character is inarguably less powerful than TWO seperate characters of the same level. |
| Nazzareth05-06-04, 04:49 AM | there no way that a gestalt 18\18 character is equal in power to a 20th level non gestalt PC. Non gestalt PCs will be overshadowed by the gestalt PCs. If you want to mix gestalt PCs with non gestalt PCs you have to be fair to those players that choose stay with non-gestalt characters, an LA+2 disadvantages non-gestalt players as gestalt character have more abilities and power than a character two levels higher. Normal players will just get stomped on by gestalt characters. People are mixing up ECL with CR and EL. when it comes to PCs CR and EL have nothing to do with a player characters power level over time that what ECL and LA are for. LA+2 is an abuse plain and simple look at the power that LA+2 templates give to a character compared what gestalt gives the character. Gestalt wins. At lower levels it may not seem like it does but at higher levels it out strips a LA+2 template. Thats why I use a scaled LA. One post stated that gestalt spell casters with an LA+2 lose out on high level spells and that justified the LA+2 not so. A 20th level wizard gets 4 9th level spells while 18\18 sorcerer\ wizard gets 5 9th level spells and twice as many spells at lower levels than the non-gestalt 20th level wizard character. Stop fooling yourselves LA+2 is an abuse. |
| Tenzhi05-06-04, 05:19 AM | Originally posted by Nazzareth People are mixing up ECL with CR and EL. when it comes to PCs CR and EL have nothing to do with a player characters power level over time that what ECL and LA are for. I'm not mixing up anything - a 20th level PC has a CR/EL of 20 which is equal to the CR/EL of two 18th level characters, which means according to the rules they should present the same challenge. But even putting that aside... LA+2 is an abuse plain and simple Under the Level-Independent XP Award variant you can level up two seperate characters to level 18 with the same amount of XP that is required to raise a single character to level 20. To require a gestalt to gain MORE experience than that when it is actually weaker than two seperate characters of equivalent level would be abuse, plain and simple. look at the power that LA+2 templates give to a character compared what gestalt gives the character. Gestalt wins. At lower levels it may not seem like it does but at higher levels it out strips a LA+2 template. Thats why I use a scaled LA. LA for templates should actually scale down based on the relative ECL of the character or creature they are being applied to. A template that is worth +2 LA to an ECL 1 character/creature isn't worth as much adjustment to an ECL 10 character/creature. Gestalts maintain a consistent level of usefulness as the character levels up. So, while it appears when compared with templates that the Gestalt should be scaled up it's actually because the template should be scaled down. In reality, rather than LA - things like templates and Gestalts should incur XP penalties. That way things like templates or races with non-scaling abilities could have a constant flat XP penalty, and things with scaling abilities would incur percentage XP penalties. The former would appear to diminish over time compared to the character's needed XP to level, and the latter would remain a consistent burden. An LA +2 ability would apply a constant penalty of, say, 1000 XP whilst a Gestalt would incur a 50% XP penalty. |
| Ryan_Singer05-06-04, 08:14 PM | Thanks to the people who posted to this thread. Given the feedback, you guys have reaffirmed my decision to go with a LA of +2. I appreciate all of the insight.-Ryan |
| Nazzareth05-06-04, 08:26 PM | CR and EL are DM tools for measuring the power level of an creature in a one off encounter, not for PCs over a campaign (read the bottom of page 6 of savage species). two 18 level characters are equal challenge for a group of 4 20th level characters if you go by CR and EL. So how can you reason that an 18/18 gestalt is the equal of a single 20th level character. Are you suggesting we should change the whole template structure (one that works) so you can abuse gestalt the use of gestalt characters. |
| Tenzhi05-06-04, 10:17 PM | Originally posted by Nazzareth CR and EL are DM tools for measuring the power level of an creature in a one off encounter, not for PCs over a campaign (read the bottom of page 6 of savage species). two 18 level characters are equal challenge for a group of 4 20th level characters if you go by CR and EL. They are an equal challenge to four 20th level characters as a single 20th level character is. Which means they (either the two 18s or the one 20) should use up about 20% of the resources of four 20th level characters. So how can you reason that an 18/18 gestalt is the equal of a single 20th level character. Because, an 18/18 gestalt is less powerful than two 18th level characters, and using the Level Independent XP award variant it takes as much XP to raise two characters to 18th level as it does to take a single character to 20th level. Are you suggesting we should change the whole template structure (one that works) so you can abuse gestalt the use of gestalt characters. Not at all, I'm suggesting that the LA system is flawed (i.e. it doesn't work right) - something I asserted long before UA ever came out. This is why my solution to the 'mixing Gestalts into a regular campaign' problem isn't a simple +2 LA, but rather an XP penalty that coincidentally works out to a +2 LA. |
| Illithidbix05-07-04, 09:34 AM | No, LA doesn't work for Gesalt characteres, simply because almost every benifit bestowed by a race/template with Level adjustment does not get better as the character advances (actually it becomes less relatively effective if anything), something that gesalt charcters most definitely do. Take for example a LA +1 modifier eg a Drow, 1st level drow and a 2nd level charcter seem to be a good enough balance, simiarly the same with a 19th level drow and a 20th level human character (although this is rather questionable, the benifits of LA bonuses tend to have less effect as levels increase.) It becomes very diffierent with a gesalt. A level adjustment of +1 may seem fine for a Level 1 gesalt charcter, however a 19th level gesalt is (almost certianly) going to be far more powerful than a standard 20th level. If you were going to introduce LA and ECL for Gesalts then the level adjustment would have to increase as the Gesalt gained more classes, which would cause rather a headache, and it would be hard to gauge the exact rate except through playtesting and it would probably depend of the character classes the gesalt has anyway (a Monk wizard would gain far more bonuses than a Bard-Rogue). In short, don't try and mix Gesalts with Non-gesalts and hope to maintain "balance". |
| Lina_Inverse05-07-04, 09:39 AM | Originally posted by Illithidbix No, LA doesn't work for Gesalt characteres, simply because almost every benifit bestowed by a race/template with Level adjustment does not get better as the character advances (actually it becomes less relatively effective if anything), something that gesalt charcters most definitely do. Take for example a LA +1 modifier eg a Drow, 1st level drow and a 2nd level charcter seem to be a good enough balance, simiarly the same with a 19th level drow and a 20th level human character (although this is rather questionable, the benifits of LA bonuses tend to have less effect as levels increase.) It becomes very diffierent with a gesalt. A level adjustment of +1 may seem fine for a Level 1 gesalt charcter, however a 19th level gesalt is (almost certianly) going to be far more powerful than a standard 20th level. If you were going to introduce LA and ECL for Gesalts then the level adjustment would have to increase as the Gesalt gained more classes, which would cause rather a headache, and it would be hard to gauge the exact rate except through playtesting and it would probably depend of the character classes the gesalt has anyway (a Monk wizard would gain far more bonuses than a Bard-Rogue). In short, don't try and mix Gesalts with Non-gesalts and hope to maintain "balance". 2 18th level charecters are equal to 1 20th level charecter. 2 14th level charecters are equal to 1 16th level charecter. 2 5th level charecters are equal to 1 7th level charecter. i think +2LA is fine,might be a bit weak but +1 is too strong.besides anyone useing gestalt will prolly pick a decent combo. |
| Illithidbix05-07-04, 02:04 PM | Originally posted by Lina_Inverse 2 18th level charecters are equal to 1 20th level charecter. 2 14th level charecters are equal to 1 16th level charecter. 2 5th level charecters are equal to 1 7th level charecter. i think +2LA is fine,might be a bit weak but +1 is too strong.besides anyone useing gestalt will prolly pick a decent combo. Umm, by CR standards maybe, but not by LA, they're very different. For example a Mindflayer (with no character levels) is a CR 8 encounter and so should be an equal challenge to a Level 8 NPC Fighter or Wizard, however as a player character it has a LA of +7 and 8 Racial hitdice, so is ECL +15. A 18level Monk/Wizard Gesalt would be far more powerful than just about any standard 20th level character. |
| Soulmage05-07-04, 02:14 PM | Would an ECL balance gestalt with normal characters? No. |
| Ryan_Singer05-07-04, 05:08 PM | Originally posted by Soulmage No. Could I please request that nobody make posts like these in threads I start? I ask these questions as a GM trying to make a fair decision, but I am posting on these boards in between school, work, eating, sleeping, and gaming. Posts that simply state a Point of View without offering any new detailed analysis and/or logical insight waste my time, and that of those actually trying to help me. Please be respectful to those who actually want to discuss the topic and not post comments such as these. PS - I know parent post did not do this, but also please refrain from short posts WITH LOTS OF CAPS. They also distract me from the help I am looking for.-Ryan |
| Lina_Inverse05-07-04, 06:29 PM | Originally posted by Illithidbix Umm, by CR standards maybe, but not by LA, they're very different. For example a Mindflayer (with no character levels) is a CR 8 encounter and so should be an equal challenge to a Level 8 NPC Fighter or Wizard, however as a player character it has a LA of +7 and 8 Racial hitdice, so is ECL +15. A 18level Monk/Wizard Gesalt would be far more powerful than just about any standard 20th level character. then ill run 2 pcs.:D ok more serisly,have you ever had an ECL charecter in a caimpaign your in?you DID know that the Wizos inflate LAs to guarente that LA charecters are unplayable right?and that they ADMIT this. therefore theres no reason to make a gestalt charecter WEAKER than TWO charecters of 2 levels lower,logically. |
| Tenzhi05-07-04, 06:46 PM | Originally posted by Illithidbix Umm, by CR standards maybe, but not by LA, they're very different. In as much as CR is a more accurate method of judging relative power, yes they are different. For example a Mindflayer (with no character levels) is a CR 8 encounter and so should be an equal challenge to a Level 8 NPC Fighter or Wizard, however as a player character it has a LA of +7 and 8 Racial hitdice, so is ECL +15. 8 racial Hit Dice is obviously unequal to 8 Class levels despite what They would have you believe. Many of the monstrous abilities that add to the LA could conceivably be counted towards class abilities a creature should have given its racial HD. For instance, a creature with 8 racial HD and a +2 to all ability scores would be listed as LA +1 giving it an ECL of 9 despite the fact that it's not even the equivalent of a typical 8th level character, much less a 9th. In many cases, the listed LA for creatures with racial HD should be lower or nonexistant. |
| MoogleEmpMog05-08-04, 02:33 AM | I'll admit, I've never playtested Gestalt/non-Gestalt campaigns, but offhand, a +2 LA seems like it should work. For example, Druid 20 or Ranger 18/Cleric 18. The Druid loses out on hit points, saves, feats and, just barely, BAB; but he has a better animal companion, better high-level spellcasting, fully 20 levels of wild shape, and better hit points. An 18th-level Cleric and an 18th-level Ranger effectively working together would be a significantly greater challenge. EDIT: And yes, races with racial HD that aren't Dragon HD are totally hosed by their current LAs. 15 Giant HD are worth less than 15 Warrior levels, for instance, and 6 Fey HD are worth less than 6 Expert levels. If they're worth less than NPC class levels, how can they be worth PC class levels? |
| Kaya Kenobi05-08-04, 03:35 AM | +2 is pretty balanced... While they're a couple levels behind, they can still stay at par with the others... In a campaign I'm running, I have a monk/druid and rogue/fighter gestalt in a party with a few non-gestalts, and they compare pretty well IMHO. |
| Scooby05-08-04, 11:32 AM | Originally posted by Laelenie La +2 is Totally abusable. Wizard 18 Cleric 6/ Prestige Paladin 3/Hospitaler 9/ Nets you BAB +17 divine grace 4 figther bonus feats Cleric casting 17wiz 18 many bonus metamagic feat *LOL* This is really funny. Besides the fact that that we all know that the Hopitaler is totaly broken the more important aspect is, that this Gestalt will totaly suck. I mean, as a wizards you can't even wear Armor without ASF and if you want into melee you will have serious problems. You need: Str: For damage and Attack Bonus- Dex: You can't wear Armor, so you will be hit OFTEN. Con: Mh....... HP are always nice, yo know.... Wis: I think you want to cast one or two cleric spells. INT: See Wis. Cha: For divine Grace. You need every frickin Attribute in D&D, how can you please be a effective Char with a 28 Point buy?(The standard Point buy) (Please, without Polymorph Self (which itself is broken)and crap like that.) |
| trapspringer05-13-04, 04:21 PM | Here is an idea, give them a LA equal to half the character level, maybe even that plus one. |
| Lina_Inverse05-13-04, 04:26 PM | Originally posted by trapspringer Here is an idea, give them a LA equal to half the character level, maybe even that plus one. .....LA shouldnt increase,serisly it shouldnt.also your then less than a glorified mystic theurg woot. just to note your 12th at 18th.a mystic theurg is 14/14....hmmmmmm |
| Pystian05-14-04, 03:04 AM | Then perhaps that's the wrong ratio, but I think trapspringer has the right idea. If gestalt are really 50% more powerful, assigning a flat number as an appropriate LA could be problematic. I don't think it's quite fair to say that, in all cases, a character two levels higher is 50% more powerful. Perhaps try Nazzareth's suggestion earlier on in this thread? |
| strenoth05-14-04, 03:43 AM | I'm personally running a game with a Gestalt Character in an otherwise non-gestalt setting, and doing the "requires 50% mroe XP to reach the same level" route. Rigth now said PC is 1 level behind the others, and will stay there and slowly slip behind the others in levels, but have more flexibility in her abilities. nobody but me and the player know she's a gestalt right now, I'm kind of tryign to make this a blind play-test. See if the other players feel overshadowed at all, or if she feels she's slipping behind. we'll see. |
| BloodSpill05-16-04, 09:50 AM | Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog For example, Druid 20 or Ranger 18/Cleric 18. The Druid loses out on hit points, saves, feats and, just barely, BAB; but he has a better animal companion, better high-level spellcasting, fully 20 levels of wild shape, and better hit points. Munckin alert? |
| Ashkalzjir05-16-04, 03:37 PM | Here is an idea, give them a LA equal to half the character level, maybe even that plus one. lets make a comparison here. fighter/barbarian, ecl 20 your gestalt no advantages multiclassed evenly 10d10 extra hitpoints +10 BAB 20 extra SP +3 to reflex and will saves +5 to fortitude saves and maybe 1 additional level hmm... wonder which came out on top :rolleyes: |
| Lina_Inverse05-16-04, 04:32 PM | Originally posted by Pystian Then perhaps that's the wrong ratio, but I think trapspringer has the right idea. If gestalt are really 50% more powerful, assigning a flat number as an appropriate LA could be problematic. I don't think it's quite fair to say that, in all cases, a character two levels higher is 50% more powerful. Perhaps try Nazzareth's suggestion earlier on in this thread? +2LA isnt 50% more powerfull.... its 100% more powerfull.they note this in the gestalt rules,that they can handle challenges 1 level higher,2LA is close enough with magic items. |
| Pystian05-17-04, 04:48 AM | Lina_Inverse, I could still be convinced, but currently I find that a little hard to believe. Not that WotC said it, just that it's actually true. As an 18th level Wizard, would you rather be a Drow or a Gestalt Monk? Both are LA +2, yes? If you were playing an Elf anyhow, Drow gives you: +2 Intelligence (admittedly very nice) +2 Charisma Darkvision out to 120 feet (replacing your low light vision) Spell Resistance 11 + class level (29 at current level) +2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities Spell-like abilities: 1/day - Dancing Lights, Darkness, Faerie Fire (caster level = class levels) Weapon Proficiency: Handcrossbow, rapier, and shortsword (replacing normal Elven proficiencies) Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or the daylight spell) blinds the drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area. Monk would give you: 4 more hit points at first level, and (on average) two more every level after that (on average 38 more hp at current level) +5 to your Fortitude and Reflex saves 8 more skill points at first level and 2 more every level after that (42 more skill points at current level) A better list of skills to choose from +4 BAB +2 more attacks per round at your highest BAB +60 to your speed Spell resistance 10 + class level (28 at current level) AC bonus of 3 + Wisdom modifier Proficiency with Monk weapons Tens of other abilities including immunity to disease and poison, the ability to heal yourself, 3 bonus combat feats (from a very select list), Evasion, Improved Evasion, immunity to aging, and a fist that does 2d8 points of damage. To me, 18 Monk levels looks considerably stronger. |
| Lina_Inverse05-17-04, 09:42 AM | Originally posted by Pystian Lina_Inverse, I could still be convinced, but currently I find that a little hard to believe. Not that WotC said it, just that it's actually true. As an 18th level Wizard, would you rather be a Drow or a Gestalt Monk? Both are LA +2, yes? If you were playing an Elf anyhow, Drow gives you: +2 Intelligence (admittedly very nice) +2 Charisma Darkvision out to 120 feet (replacing your low light vision) Spell Resistance 11 + class level (29 at current level) +2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities Spell-like abilities: 1/day - Dancing Lights, Darkness, Faerie Fire (caster level = class levels) Weapon Proficiency: Handcrossbow, rapier, and shortsword (replacing normal Elven proficiencies) Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or the daylight spell) blinds the drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area. Monk would give you: 4 more hit points at first level, and (on average) two more every level after that (on average 38 more hp at current level) +5 to your Fortitude and Reflex saves 8 more skill points at first level and 2 more every level after that (42 more skill points at current level) A better list of skills to choose from +4 BAB +2 more attacks per round at your highest BAB +60 to your speed Spell resistance 10 + class level (28 at current level) AC bonus of 3 + Wisdom modifier Proficiency with Monk weapons Tens of other abilities including immunity to disease and poison, the ability to heal yourself, 3 bonus combat feats (from a very select list), Evasion, Improved Evasion, immunity to aging, and a fist that does 2d8 points of damage. To me, 18 Monk levels looks considerably stronger. indeed it does,this is because it is a race,and as the wizos have admited ALL LAS are 1-2 levels higher than they should be so people will play proper "adventurer" races.drow therefore are in reality LA+1.in addition your still a proper adventuring race so no reason to artificlly inflate the LA. oh "proof" check the exp table.that means it should come out to x2 power for 2 levels.then check how quickly gold scales at high levels.that should prove it or close enough. i believe tenzhi pointed out why +2LA is best.use the independant exp award,make them level at 1/2 rate.end result LA+2. dont make them level at half rate the normal way,theyll be the same level soon enough.(trust me they will,exp system is mucked up like that.) |
| Nazzareth05-18-04, 06:04 AM | If want compare the power of gestalt characters to normal characters compare them to the combination classes that are prohibited to gestalt characters such as the eldritch knight, arcane trickster, mystic theuge. If you want balanced campain where gestalt charater and normal character are both played. You should use LA that would bring the gestalt charaters down to same power level as one of these combination class. Example 20th level eldritch knight fighter 4 wizard 6 eld knight 10 Bab 18, Spell level 15, MaxHP 124, 4 Bonus Feats fighter 1 wizard 9 eld knight 10 Bab 15, Spell level 18, MaxHP 116, 2 Bonus Feats compare with gestalt 20 fighter 20 wizard Bab 20, Spell level 20, MaxHP 200, 15 Bonus Feats compare with gestalt 18 fighter 18 wizard +2 LA Bab 18, Spell level 18, MaxHP 180, 13 Bonus Feats compare with gestalt 15 fighter 15 wizard +5 LA Bab 15, Spell level 15, MaxHP 150, 11 Bonus Feats the gestalts also have better saves, an kick ass familiar, even if the gestalt. this shows +2 LA gestalt is more powerful than 20th level character based on the same concept. A +5 at 20 level more like it. The gestalt might have a lower bab or spell level than an eldritch knight the gestalt more than makes up for it due hp, saves, familiar and feats. as you can see the gestalt +5 LA is about on par with a 20 level eldritch knight this is my reasoning for the scaled system if you want use both types of characters in a party. if you think +5 at 20th level is to hard on the players scale up the LA up at 6 level intervals instead of every 5. |
| Lilt05-18-04, 09:09 AM | It's true that gestalts wouldn't be hit with the same penalties for multi-classing that single class characters are, but that's kindof the point. It would probably not be possible to devise a perfect system whereby both gestalt and non-gestalt characters are equal at all levels when both playing single-class (or single goal in the case of gestalts, such-as barbarian/fighters) and class-combo characters. Gestalt characters would loginally be better at doing multi-class combo stuff while non-gestalt characters should do single-class progression better. I am not entierly convinced that LA+2 is perfect, but I think they could reasonably be balanced to play in a normal game. I would make-sure, however, that *everyone* knows that the option to play a gestalt character is open so you don't get people struggling to fit a combo-PrC onto their non-gestalt character and being 'out-classed' by the gestalt character. |
| Lina_Inverse05-18-04, 11:00 AM | Originally posted by Nazzareth If want compare the power of gestalt characters to normal characters compare them to the combination classes that are prohibited to gestalt characters such as the eldritch knight, arcane trickster, mystic theuge. If you want balanced campain where gestalt charater and normal character are both played. You should use LA that would bring the gestalt charaters down to same power level as one of these combination class. Example 20th level eldritch knight fighter 4 wizard 6 eld knight 10 Bab 18, Spell level 15, MaxHP 124, 4 Bonus Feats fighter 1 wizard 9 eld knight 10 Bab 15, Spell level 18, MaxHP 116, 2 Bonus Feats compare with gestalt 20 fighter 20 wizard Bab 20, Spell level 20, MaxHP 200, 15 Bonus Feats compare with gestalt 18 fighter 18 wizard +2 LA Bab 18, Spell level 18, MaxHP 180, 13 Bonus Feats compare with gestalt 15 fighter 15 wizard +5 LA Bab 15, Spell level 15, MaxHP 150, 11 Bonus Feats the gestalts also have better saves, an kick ass familiar, even if the gestalt. this shows +2 LA gestalt is more powerful than 20th level character based on the same concept. A +5 at 20 level more like it. The gestalt might have a lower bab or spell level than an eldritch knight the gestalt more than makes up for it due hp, saves, familiar and feats. as you can see the gestalt +5 LA is about on par with a 20 level eldritch knight this is my reasoning for the scaled system if you want use both types of characters in a party. if you think +5 at 20th level is to hard on the players scale up the LA up at 6 level intervals instead of every 5. first off,compare via fighter 1 or 2.as thats what the eldritch knight will take.second compare a fighter/wizard 1 to a eldritch knight 6 woops it seems our gestalt at LA+5 is unplayable. also its been noted,gestalts would be the replacement for the eldritch knight which means they wont be competeing.eldritch knights are pretty weak,compare versus a pure wizard and the wizard will be very competitive. also why are you compareing only at 20?compare at 5/10/15/20 thats the usual standard.just 20 will tell you NOTHING,as the caimpaign is either A.going on epic B.ending if A well look who gets to be epic first.if B lvl20 power matters little. |
| ruleslawyer05-18-04, 11:10 AM | Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog And yes, races with racial HD that aren't Dragon HD are totally hosed by their current LAs. 15 Giant HD are worth less than 15 Warrior levels, for instance, and 6 Fey HD are worth less than 6 Expert levels. If they're worth less than NPC class levels, how can they be worth PC class levels? Well, the way it's supposed to work is that LA is lower for creatures with more monster HD than for those with higher HD. Take, for example, the ogre. +10 Str, +6 Con, reach, and natural armor alone would be worth much more than +2 LA for a race with no monster HD, but they only cost +2 for the ogre. Why? Because the "penalty" that the ogre takes by virtue of having 4 giant HD is factored in. As for gestalt: I'd say +2 LA is dead on. A Wiz17 is just as good as a gestalt Wiz15/Clr15, IMHO; I'd take a Wiz7 over a gestalt Wiz5/Clr5 any day. The real problem is that +2 seems a little small at the highest levels, but that's really a problem with the overall leveling system more than anything else. |
| Tenzhi05-18-04, 03:42 PM | Originally posted by Pystian As an 18th level Wizard, would you rather be a Drow or a Gestalt Monk? Both are LA +2, yes? This is not a problem with the LA for Gestalts, but rather a problem with the LA for races. The problem stems from the fact that the majority of racial abilities that generate LA don't scale with level - given that fact, their cost should logically diminish over time and eventually disappear completely. |
| Elzaban the Ethereal05-18-04, 05:22 PM | You know what could probably work here? Bloodline levels. Those lovely levels that give you no benefits whatsoever, but let you use the Bloodlines. Now, what if we adapted those "useless levels" so that they would scale the power level of Gestalts? Perhaps something like this (Filler represents the useless levels): 1: Filler 1 (essentially LA +1 from the get-go.) 2: Gestalt 1/1 3: Gestalt 2/2 4: Filler 2 5: Gestalt 3/3 6: Gestalt 4/4 7: Gestalt 5/5 8: Filler 3 9: Gestalt 7/7 10: Gestalt 8/8 11: Gestalt 9/9 12: Gestalt 10/10 13: Filler 4 14: Gestalt 11/11 15: Gestalt 12/12 16: Gestalt 13/13 17: Gestalt 14/14 18: Gestalt 15/15 19: Filler 5 20: Gestalt 16/16 I think this idea has some merit, and you wouldn't have to fumble around with a set LA, or with simply applying LA, since there would actually be a class going in there (of a description). Feel free to test it out, do a bit of tweaking to the numbers, etc. |
| Nazzareth05-18-04, 08:14 PM | Lina Inverse I am using 20th level as an example how power is balanced between gestalt characters and non-gestalt at that level only not for all levels, 20 level is usually the top out for us we dont go epic. if you hade taken notice of my post regarding using a scaling system to balance this out. starting the at LA +1 then increasing it by +1 every five levels this makes things equal at the lower levels. The +5 LA kicks in at 20th level not before it. Using a scaled system of LA is a fair, balanced and playable system. I am not talking about competeing or replacement but balance. My point is that if you are using gestalt classes to replace the combination prcs and to be used with non-gestalt characters, you need to compare them with other like classes to be able to find the right level adjustment that will put them on par with normal characters. A flat +2 LA does not work at higher levels. My example was showing the power balance between a 20th level non-gestalt and an 18/18 gestalt LA +2 character. This shows that the +2 LA is over powered at 20th level. It so plain to see that +2LA wrong at high levels. Elzaban bloodline levels is another good idea that is trying balance the power inequality out over levels. It seems to me that people might have a problem with the power of multi-classing in 3rd ed which took a big hit. Do you want more powerful combination \ mutliclass characters like in 2nd ed, and are using gestalt characters as way to obtain this. If you think multi-classing is weak and under powered change some of the combo prc's. Why not just drop the prereq's for combo prc's so they can be qualified for at 5th level then the 1st level taken at 6th level and make them 15 level prc's instead of 10 level prc's. or if want use gestalt like 2nd ed multi-classing. double exp cost per level, average the hp for each level, and average skill points at each level. Dont allow gestalts to multi and one class has to be the races favoured class. Or do people want the best of both worlds, all the powers of two classes with out paying the cost. |
| ZebRaderJedi05-18-04, 10:36 PM | For those that like / are using the +2 LA idea, are you also figuring in +2 CR? As a GM, Gestalt NPC villains seem interesting, but how best to adjudicate the CR of a X/X? Thanks, Zeb |
| Tenzhi05-19-04, 12:53 AM | Originally posted by Nazzareth or if want use gestalt like 2nd ed multi-classing. double exp cost per level, average the hp for each level, and average skill points at each level. Dont allow gestalts to multi and one class has to be the races favoured class. Aside from Averaging the HP and Skill points (the latter of which would be incorrect anyway, as a multi-class in 2nd Ed used the better NWP progression of all your classes), that's almost exactly what I'm doing - and as I said before it works out to +2 LA in the end (when single-classed characters are at 20th level, double-class gestalts are at 18/18). The HP will soon be fairly moot, as I'm removing class HD and replacing them with HP bonuses/penalties and using racial HD instead. (d4=-2; d6=-1; d8=0; d10=+1; d12=+2; modifiers based on the average HP per HD with a d8 as the standard, minimum of 1 HP per level.) |
| micmaster05-19-04, 03:20 AM | they person who said + 50% xp a level is the only one doing the obvious +50%power = +50% xp |
| Lina_Inverse05-19-04, 06:36 PM | Originally posted by micmaster they person who said + 50% xp a level is the only one doing the obvious +50%power = +50% xp first off,exp gravy train! second off +1CR=+50% Power.wonky power curves in d20. as for the CR of gestalts +1,there 50% more powerfull(assumeing they have items for CR-1) |
| Omega1305-19-04, 08:19 PM | One way of looking at it... Can you think of a single sane player who would not sacrifice 2 levels for NEARLY THAN TWICE THE LEVEL HE HAD BEFORE!!!!!!!!:rant: If you were 20 ECL... 10th level fighter/ 10th level mage... Or 18 LEVEL FIGHTER/ 18TH LEVEL MAGE!!!!!!!!!!:rant: :rant: :rant: THINK ABOUT IT! 20TH LEVEL VRS NEARLY 36TH! AND DONT SAY "well you only get 1 action per round not two"... GESTALT CHARACTERS BELONG IN GESTALT CAMPAIGNS!!!!!!:rant: :rant: |
| ZebRaderJedi05-19-04, 08:29 PM | Well you only get 1 action per round not two... :smirk: Sorry, couldn't resist.... |
| Tenzhi05-20-04, 01:45 AM | Not only do you just get 1 action per round, but you also only have 18 HD (with all that that implies) and are nowhere near the power of a 36th level character. Two 18th level characters != one 36th level character by any stretch of the imagination. |
| Lilt05-20-04, 05:18 AM | Should we try a level-by-level approach? From that we could figure-out some possible LA advancement. Level 1st level gestalt characters certainly be inferior to level 2 normal characters. Anything a first level gestalt could do, a 2nd level character could do better. LA+1 seems reasonable for the privelage of being a first level gestalt character 2nd level gestalt characters are probably equivalent to 3rd level normal characters 3rd level sees the low saves of normal characters step up by 1, it also sees their first general feat, and the accquisition of 2nd level spells by Wizard, Cleric, and Druid. This one is a slightly hard choice, but considering that they are certainly inferior to 4th level characters (Anything a 2nd level gestalt could do, a 4th level character could do better) I think LA+1 is still fair. Anybody think this progression should be continued? I personally think that gestalts should up their LA to 2 upon reaching 4th level. IE: they take a level in level adjustment in a similar manner to the bloodline rules. I say 4th level as that is before all of the classes 'mature'. Wizards, Clerics, and Druids all have 3rd level spells at 5th level, where fighter classes (and sorcerers) tend to mature at 6th level as they gain their 2nd attack. Bards are a tough one, but I think they can be said to mature at 7th level as that's when bards get 3nd level spells. Rogues never really mature from my experience. |
| Lina_Inverse05-20-04, 10:51 AM | Originally posted by Lilt Should we try a level-by-level approach? From that we could figure-out some possible LA advancement. Level 1st level gestalt characters certainly be inferior to level 2 normal characters. Anything a first level gestalt could do, a 2nd level character could do better. LA+1 seems reasonable for the privelage of being a first level gestalt character 2nd level gestalt characters are probably equivalent to 3rd level normal characters 3rd level sees the low saves of normal characters step up by 1, it also sees their first general feat, and the accquisition of 2nd level spells by Wizard, Cleric, and Druid. This one is a slightly hard choice, but considering that they are certainly inferior to 4th level characters (Anything a 2nd level gestalt could do, a 4th level character could do better) I think LA+1 is still fair. Anybody think this progression should be continued? I personally think that gestalts should up their LA to 2 upon reaching 4th level. IE: they take a level in level adjustment in a similar manner to the bloodline rules. I say 4th level as that is before all of the classes 'mature'. Wizards, Clerics, and Druids all have 3rd level spells at 5th level, where fighter classes (and sorcerers) tend to mature at 6th level as they gain their 2nd attack. Bards are a tough one, but I think they can be said to mature at 7th level as that's when bards get 3nd level spells. Rogues never really mature from my experience. personally i dislike the bloodline rules,scaleing LAs are stuipid.exp penaltys would work better if D&D didnt have wonky exp curves.of course exp penaltys work sooo much better under flat exp!no exp gravy train! ....36th level?sheesh dude calm down.36th level charecters are way stronger than some puny gestalt with 20th leveler.the 36th level charecter is by definition a single class person or maybe has some good PrCs. anyways,id like to make another call to not compare gestalts with LA to multi-classed charecters.anyone here should sanely accept that multi-classing in D&D 3.0 is not a good choice.please compare gestalts ONLY to single classed charecters or towards multiclassing charecters that get something from it,like prestiege classed charecters or fighter type levels sprinkled well in a fighting charecter. |
| Lilt05-20-04, 11:33 AM | I agree that extra XP reqs with even XP distribution seems fair. It's noteworthy that witha fixed LA adjust Gestalt Epic characters will eventually become sillily powerful. OK: *more* sillily powerful then. My reasoning: The rough abiolity of an epic character can be evaluated to the number of epic feats that they have. As most epic classes get feats every 3rd level (with a natural epic feat then every 3rd+1 level): Gestalt characters could eventually reach a larger number of feats. I present Standard and Gestalt epic feat progression from ECL 21 to ECL 32. Observe: 1,1,2,3,3,4,5,5,6,7,7,8 Standard progression 0,0,1,1,3,4,4,6,7,7,9,10 +2LA Gestalt Progression The +2LA gestalt has a superior number of epic feats by ECL 29, which would possibly even equate to his character being superior even if his range of abilities weren't superior to start off with. If Gestalt characters are to remain balanced then it might be best to apply some form of slideing scale. |
| Lina_Inverse05-20-04, 11:35 AM | Originally posted by Lilt I agree that extra XP reqs with even XP distribution seems fair. It's noteworthy that witha fixed LA adjust Gestalt Epic characters will eventually become sillily powerful. OK: *more* sillily powerful then. My reasoning: The rough abiolity of an epic character can be evaluated to the number of epic feats that they have. As most epic classes get feats every 3rd level (with a natural epic feat then every 3rd+1 level): Gestalt characters could eventually reach a larger number of feats. I present Standard and Gestalt epic feat progression from ECL 21 to ECL 32. Observe: 1,1,2,3,3,4,5,5,6,7,7,8 Standard progression 0,0,1,1,3,4,4,6,7,7,9,10 +2LA Gestalt Progression The +2LA gestalt has a superior number of epic feats by ECL 29, which would possibly even equate to his character being superior even if his range of abilities weren't superior to start off with. If Gestalt characters are to remain balanced then it might be best to apply some form of slideing scale. hmmm dosent work that way,definitly falls under same type bonueses.so youd only take the BEST progression. |
| Nazzareth05-20-04, 11:44 PM | Just a thought how about using apprentice level characters Page 40 3rd ed DMG for 1st level gestalt with no LA, then start scaling the LA +1 at 2nd level. (I could not find the apprentice level character rules in 3.5.) As they could have formed the basis of gestalt characters this concept. An apprentice level character is basicly a gestalt character balanced for first level. at 2nd level the character becomes a 1/1 gestalt and then start scaling the LA from there. any thoughts? |
| Nazzareth05-21-04, 12:24 AM | In regards to making gestalt more like 2nd ed multi-classing use gestalt except as follows You can average the skill points easy add both the number of skills points for each gestalt class together and divide by two then add your int mod. Not hard at all, do the same with hit dice. Or find the closest average hit dice example gestalt barbarian \ Druid = d12+ d8= d10 at each level. For odd numbered averages like the fighter\wizard d10 + d4 = d14\2 = d6 round down or d8 round up (DMs Call) or d6 at even levels and d8 at odd levels. like I said it not hard at all. As for exp instead of running two exp totals use level exp x2 for example 2000 2nd, 6000 3rd, 12000 4th. Dont allow multi-classing within each class. One Prestige class per class only. One class has to be race's favored class there you have its pretty much 2nd ed multi classing. No LA needed if the x2 exp seams two high drop it to level exp x1.5 example 2nd level = 1500, 3rd = 4500, 4th= 9000 |
| Tenzhi05-21-04, 02:01 AM | Originally posted by Nazzareth You can average the skill points easy add both the number of skills points for each gestalt class together and divide by two then add your int mod. To make it like 2nd Ed multi-classing, you would use the best skill progression of the two classes rather than averageing the skill points - a 2E multi-class used the most beneficial NWP progression of the character's classes, not an average. Indeed, the only thing you would really need to change in regards to ability progressions would be using the average of HD rather than the best. |
| Nazzareth05-21-04, 04:06 AM | I know where you are comming from with that but I am not sure on it. I think that the NWP system and 3rd ed skill point system are so far apart that you can not compare one to the other in order base 2ed to 3rd conversion. By averaging the skill points you can keep the power level down to stop them leaping ahead. May this should be done to the Hit Points and skill points that gestalt classes get in a mixed game with non-gestalts to help balance them out???? |
| Tenzhi05-21-04, 04:43 AM | 3E Skills and 2E NWP are conceptually identical even if the systems are radically different. Using an average of skill points, while arguably more balanced, takes the gestalt concept farther away from 2E multi-classing and closer to 3E multi-classing - you may as well average the BAB and saving throws while you're at it. |