Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hepcatmerkin 09-07-06, 03:40 AM	So, I'm not really chill with the idea of Vitality and Wound points as they stand in Unearthed Arcana. Much as I like the idea of combat being a little bit deadlier, I think it's still unrealistic to, say, get hit with a fireball for 10d6 damage and come away only slightly winded, but still completely fine, and not sporting any sort of serious burn wound. Likewise, I feel that classes like rogues should be able to deal some serious actual wounding, not so much doing the equivalent of subdual damage. Here's what I have so far, I've thought about it some. It should be noted that I'm combining this with a modified Defense Values system and Armor as DR, to pretty much give players a choice between not getting hit at all, or not getting damaged at all--in my armor as DR rules, the DR reduced wound point damage. Regardless, here we go: --------- Vitality is like regular hit points, as described in UA. Wound points are your constitution score (I'm considering adding bonus wound points per level, based on your class' hit die--makes you tougher) Damage: half goes to wounds, half goes to vitality. Wound point damage capped by 1+ ˝ BAB. This will be modified by: *1.5 with a two-handed weapon +1 for each die of Sneak Attack, Skirmish, or Sudden Strike +1 for each point of Insightful Strike. +1 for Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot, or +1 damage feats +2 for Weapon Specialization +1/4 points of sacrificed attack bonus/increased damage used with Power Attack or similar feats. Damage resistance only applies to Wound Points, not Vitality Points—armored characters may be whittled down and exhausted, then easily wounded. On a critical hit, use full BAB+1 as base for wound damage, 1.5*BAB with a x3 multiplier, and 2* for x4 multiplier, and so on. So, if you're a 6th level fighter wielding a battleaxe one-handed and get a critical hit, let's say you roll 32 damage. Your base wound damage is normally 1 + (6*.5), or 4. But since you rolled a critical, your base wound damage is 1+(6*1.5), or 10. Thus, half of the 32 damage goes to vitality (16) and half goes to wound points, while still being capped at 10. For spells, maximum wound damage is calculated as if a caster’s caster level were the BAB of the character; full casters like sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards have +1 each level, half casters like psychic warriors, bards, and such, have +3/4 each level, and quarter casters like rangers and paladins have +1/2 each level after 4. Feats like Spell Focus or a wizard's School Specialization increase this, but I'm not quite sure how, yet. So, a fireball cast by a 10th level sorceror rolls 32 damage. Half goes to vitality (representing shock, minor burns, and concussive force), and half goes to wounds, capped at 1+(10*.5), or 6. So, 16 vitality damage, 6 wound damage--the average human is pretty seriously wounded, not to mention blown around by the vitality damage. When saving for half damage, a successful save eliminates all wound point damage and merely injures vitality points. Evasion (which normally makes you take half damage on a failed save) works as normal. Improved Evasion eliminates all wound point damage even on a failed save, and all damage on a successful save. Subdual damage is dealt entirely to Vitality points, and at 0 vitality, starts doing half damage to Wound points. Regular damage at 0 vitality points begins doing damage to Wound Points at full damage. Overflow from an attack that would drop a character to negative vitality instead drops the character to 0 vitality and the excess damage is treated as Wound Point damage. This can exceed the normal formula for max wound points. At 0 vitality, you are considered staggered, if you have Wound Points left, so can only take a single action. After 1d4 rounds, make a DC 15 Fortitude save to gain 1 vitality point, and thus operate normally. At 0 wound points, you are disabled, and only able to take a single move action or standard action. Any action causes you to lose one wound point. At negative (constitution score) wound points, you die. Every round you have negative wound points, roll a fortitude save with a DC equal to 15+Number of Negative Wound Points (so a character with -4 wound points would roll against DC 19). If you succeed, you stabilize. If not, you lose one wound point. A character can also stabilize you with a DC 10+negative wound points heal check. ----- That's my system. I think that it would make combat more deadly, but also, it represents the fact that actual, physical wounds are a very common part of combat, and the human body can only take so much. But also, since I say that DR applies to wound points (and for that reason, I halve most DR, fast healing, and regeneration), it can take a while to whittle people down. Concerns I have: This may make rogues and such too poweful, as they get +1 to base wound damage with ever 1d6 of sneak attack. Combined with damage resistance lowering wound damage, rogues might be the only ones ever dealing damage. So, I considered raising the base wound point damage to the full BAB--simplifies things, at least, and lowers the discrepency between rogues and fighters. But would that make it too easy for attacks to completely overcome armor/DR? I didn't like the old system too much, and I like how this one keeps the possiblility of critical hits rolling lots of dice, which I've found players really like. Thoughts, anyone? Merci.
Ranger REG 09-07-06, 04:31 AM	:uh-huh: It only reaffirms my position that the more realistic you want, the more complicated or extra steps you make in resolving damage and health, thus slowing the game down.
Dr_Draco 09-07-06, 07:59 AM	It only reaffirms my position that the more realistic you want, the more complicated or extra steps you make in resolving damage and health, thus slowing the game down.Not necessarily. Mutants and Masterminds has a fairly simplistic system for damage that helps make things a bit more realistic. However, porting it to a D&D game wouldn't be easy, considering it doesn't use hit points... And well, what's a D&D game without hit points? ;)
RaspK FOG 09-07-06, 09:07 AM	You should all check up on the free Fastplay rules for the Alternity system: it really gives a vastly better system for such issues, and you can actually convert it to d20 pretty easily.
highbulp 09-07-06, 09:17 AM	We used to use a wound/vitality type system where all damage dealt full to "vitality" and 1/4 damage to "wound." Running out of vitality knocked you out, and running out of "wound" killed you. Something like this might be simpler than the complex capping system you have now, while still generating the same kind of effect. From what you say, you want Area of Effect spells to be a bit more lethal, and sneak attack to be a bit more lethal. How about just modifying these abilities then? Maybe have AoE spells (any spell that requires a reflex save) do some wound damage in a given ratio--so basically just adjusting the "save for half" part into a "save for less/no wound damage" or something? Or make fireball (and any other spell you like) more of a "save or die" spell (probably increasing the spell level in the process). For sneak attack, perhaps it deals an extra 1pt (or 1/2 a point) straight to wound damage instead of the normal dice? The main problem with the wound/vitality system (which I use too btw, except with an added level that "wounds" have penalties) is that it slows down combat. That's why the normal AC/HP system is so abstracted--it's fast, but then stops making sense after a certain point. You don't want to slow down wound/vitality even more, which might happen when people have to figure out the damage cap for various attacks (every attack if they use Power Attack or Expertise) and so on.
Seerow 09-07-06, 08:02 PM	So, a Rogue with 10d6 Sneak Attack Dice deals half his normal damage as wound points, then another 10 damage on top of that, per hit? Okay, even if you give extra WP=BAB, a Raging Barbarian has AT MOST 44 Con (assuming a 20 Base[dwarf or something], raging for +8, +5 tome, +5 levels +6 Enhancement), so 64 Wound Points. Rogue waltzes up, Barbarian has crappy AC cause well, he's a barbarian. BABAM 60 Wound Points in damage from Sneak Attack Alone. He has to do a whopping 8 points of normal damage to one shot the barbarian. (For reference, normally that would have been ~210 damage to a Barbarian with 475 average HP, so the Barbarian takes a pretty hard hit, then turns around and stabs the Rogue in the face for getting Cocky and thinking he could kill him that easily.)
Ranger REG 09-07-06, 10:23 PM	Not necessarily. Mutants and Masterminds has a fairly simplistic system for damage that helps make things a bit more realistic. However, porting it to a D&D game wouldn't be easy, considering it doesn't use hit points... And well, what's a D&D game without hit points? ;) Honestly, the above homebrewed system is far more complicated than MnM system. And though you can get seriously injured under MnM system (it's 25% more lethal compared to D&D HP system), you do have Hero points to save your butt. After all, this is part of the superhero RPG package. Just please try to remember the KISS rule when trying to emulate realism. Though many would disagree with me, MnM and True20 Damage Saving Throw System is by far one of the best wound-level health game mechanics I've seen for the d20 System, if not the best.
hepcatmerkin 09-08-06, 01:31 AM	So, a Rogue with 10d6 Sneak Attack Dice deals half his normal damage as wound points, then another 10 damage on top of that, per hit? Not exactly. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but those 10 dice of sneak attack only add to the cap of wound damage--so, let's say you're a level 19 rogue with +10d6 sneak attack. Your base wound damage potential is 1+ half your BAB, so, 1+half of 14, = 8. With a normal attack, no matter how much damage you deal, you can only deal 8 points of damage to a character's Wound Points. If you do a sneak attack, though, every die of damage you do extra increases your cap for wound points by one. So, you could do a maximum of 18 wound points of damage (8 base plus 10 from sneak attacking). Not as deadly as you made it sound. Yeah, I know it's complex, but it really bothers me that the damage system is hyper-unreal. Especially since I'm running a steampunkish campaign, I want something that represents the fact that if you get shot, you get <i>hurt</i>, you dont just lose hit points. No matter how experiences you are, a good shot can mess you up. But then again, I think that BAB would be a great way to determine how much damage you can deal--it represents your capacity to get a hit in, right, so why not your capacity to get a meaningful hit in? I pretty much overthought this. I'm going to check out those alternative systems and see what that's all about.... I want to keep something relatively hit-pointish, but with some sort of reality behind it. Just to keep it simpler, how about just having BAB damage subtracted from whatever damage you do, and deal that to Wound points, and have armor subtracted from that? That would make things more dangerous as you go up in levels. And then sneak attacks and whatnot get extra deadly for how much they hurt your vitality--effectively making you weaker, more fatigued, and such, like a sucker punch. Wounds is actually body damage, and vitality is like getting bruised, roughed up, and fatigued by damage, far as I consider it. Same for spellcaster level and all that. If I keep it that simple, what are the most obvious flaws? Perhaps granting extra bonus wound points at various levels could keep it less deadly.... because up here it seems like your basic 20th level barbarian could mow through most people. But since I'm going to be sticking around 8th-10th level, not AS bad, and it might actually make my players try to play intelligently and not get wounded--taking cover in a firefight, for instance.
Tenzhi 09-08-06, 04:24 AM	Not necessarily. Mutants and Masterminds has a fairly simplistic system for damage that helps make things a bit more realistic. However, porting it to a D&D game wouldn't be easy, considering it doesn't use hit points... And well, what's a D&D game without hit points? ;) It might be pretty easy. It might be as easy as using it as presented in UA, as a matter of fact (if I'm not completely senile and am correctly remembering that the toughness save mechanic was presented in UA).
Elrabin 09-08-06, 09:23 AM	Meh, my suspension of disbelief with "You stand up, with your eyebrows singed off and your cool severely disturbed, barely having ducked the wave of fire" isn't much different from my suspension of disbelief with "You take 37 damage from the fireball."
hepcatmerkin 09-08-06, 05:28 PM	You should all check up on the free Fastplay rules for the Alternity system: it really gives a vastly better system for such issues, and you can actually convert it to d20 pretty easily. So I checked out the Alternity system, and it seems to work well, kinda like the Injury system from UA. I tried to convert it and use a bit of the Injury system and this is what I came up with--seems much more simple to me. Three types of damage: Stun, Wound, and Mortal. Stun, Wound, and Mortal Damage Boxes equal to Constitution. Divide damage by 4, round up, that equals the Damage Value. Fort save versus 15+DV. d12 hit die: +2 on saves to resist injury (average hit die, for multiclass) d10 hit die: +1 d8 hit die: +0 d6 hit die: -1 d4 hit die: -2 (hmmm…) Lethal Nonlethal Succeed: Take DV Stun No effect Fail, 1-9: Take DV Wound Take DV Stun Fail, 10-19: Take DV Mortal Take Full Stun Fail, 20+: Death Unconsciousness If you take more damage to Stun than you have boxes left, it overflows into Wounds. If you take more damage to Wounds than you have boxes left, it overflows into Mortal. For hit point bonuses from feats, etc: every +4 hp grants +1 on fort saves vs. injury. Toughness gives 3+1/2 hd hit points (my rules), calculate from there. DR: Every 4 points, rounded up, adds +1 versus damage type. Objects have 0 Stun points, Wound points and Mortal points equal to half material’s hit points per inch of thickness each, minimum 0 wound, 1 mortal. So, glass: 0w, 1m. Adamantium, 20w, 20m. Gets +1 bonus on throw for each inch thick. And I'm not sure what to do with constructs, undead, etc, with no Constitution score. Maybe default to 10+HD or something. It's in a lot of ways like armor-as-damage-conversion. If you take a hit, but are tough about it, you just take stun damage. I don't like the idea of you getting, say, stabbed, and being completely fine. Perhaps I could add an injury-esque system where your roll to avoid more wounds is penalized by, say, half your boxes of wound damage, but I dunno. And is dealing DV points to stun/wounds/mortal too deadly? I'm not sure, but I think at lower levels it could be fine-ish. Thoughts?
TarlSS 09-08-06, 05:31 PM	The d20 damage system is quite simple, but requires a bit of conversion. It doesn't have hitpoints, but it makes the game relatively lethal.
Seerow 09-08-06, 05:42 PM	Not exactly. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but those 10 dice of sneak attack only add to the cap of wound damage--so, let's say you're a level 19 rogue with +10d6 sneak attack. Your base wound damage potential is 1+ half your BAB, so, 1+half of 14, = 8. With a normal attack, no matter how much damage you deal, you can only deal 8 points of damage to a character's Wound Points. If you do a sneak attack, though, every die of damage you do extra increases your cap for wound points by one. So, you could do a maximum of 18 wound points of damage (8 base plus 10 from sneak attacking). Not as deadly as you made it sound. Okay, in that case, same scenario. You need to pull of 36 points of damage to have half of that converted to wound points and hit the cap. 10d6 averages 35, so really a Rogue with 10 strenght, no weapon enhancements, no nothing, hits that on average. Give him say a 18-20 strength (12-14 base, Str boosting item), a +5 Weapon, and some enhancements for more damage, and he'll hit it reliably enough for the chances of it -not- happening to not matter. So 18 wound points per hit. Now you don't even need to hit 6 times. You can hit THREE times and deal 54 Wound Points of damage. That'll kill just about anyone. Hit a fourth time and it DOES kill everyone (dealing 72 Wound Points against the max of 64 from a raging barbarian with EVERYTHING pumped into con)
Seerow 09-08-06, 06:35 PM	Actually, looking at it some more, it's just as bad for any class. Even a Fighter, with Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, GWF, GWS, and MWM, has an effective +6. (+2 Spec, +2 Greater Spec, +2 WF+GWF, +2 MWM [should probably be +3 but eh]) makes a 20th level Fighter have a max of 17 WP damage per hit, base. He power attacks for 4, making that 18 and matches the rogue, but gets the four attacks necessary to drop anyone in one round base. Also, Psiwars and Bards both have full Caster Level, so they should get full effect. Not that it matters, since both are based on buffing rather than blasting.
Ranger REG 09-08-06, 06:37 PM	It might be pretty easy. It might be as easy as using it as presented in UA, as a matter of fact (if I'm not completely senile and am correctly remembering that the toughness save mechanic was presented in UA). Unearthed Arcana version doesn't have a new saving throw stat. It just uses the fortitude saving throw with Fort Save Bonus (plus modifiers).
Ranger REG 09-08-06, 06:40 PM	Meh, my suspension of disbelief with "You stand up, with your eyebrows singed off and your cool severely disturbed, barely having ducked the wave of fire" isn't much different from my suspension of disbelief with "You take 37 damage from the fireball." :bored: Boy, you must be fun at parties.
Millennium 09-09-06, 11:11 AM	Have you considered the revised Grim-n-Gritty rules? This sounds like exactly the type of thing you're looking for: an expanded armor-as-DR (or soak, as they call it) system, a low number of hit points for all characters, and only minimal impact on noncombat aspects of the game.
Tenzhi 09-10-06, 12:04 AM	Unearthed Arcana version doesn't have a new saving throw stat. It just uses the fortitude saving throw with Fort Save Bonus (plus modifiers). But it has the mechanic, yes? Fortitude and Toughness were essentially the same thing anyway.
Elrabin 09-10-06, 12:31 AM	:bored: Boy, you must be fun at parties. :P Kidding of course
Ranger REG 09-10-06, 04:10 AM	But it has the mechanic, yes? Fortitude and Toughness were essentially the same thing anyway. They use the same modifier (Con), but Toughness have its own Save Bonus progression column in Blue Rose.
The_Levitator 09-10-06, 01:40 PM	I would really like to incorporate the VWS into our campaign, but I use DM Genie and so far nobody has created a fully working script for it yet (although I do have someone working on it for me). Right now, I came up with something that's actually been working pretty well with all of the variants we already use. Just to be thorough, here's the combat system we are using. 3.5 rules with Armor as DR (indcluding armor and shield physical damage), Defense Opposed Roll, Clobbered and Facing variants. What I've done to simluate the effects of injuries during combat was to create a new condition called Battle Fatigue, which is basically Fatigue Lite (-1 STR, -1 DEX). This occurs at 50% of total HP. When a creature reaches 25% of total HP, they are Fatigued. I did this at the request of my players, who didn't like the idea that a 75 HP character fights just as well at 2 HP as they do at full strength. In addition, we also make Morale checks at the 50% and 25% total HP marks. Being shaken or frightened can also affect a character's ability to continue fighting. The best part of it all for me right now is that DM Genie handles all of this with a couple of clicks, allowing me to focus on the story and description. If my friend figures out a script for VWS, I think we are going to give it a shot. DM Genie spits out a very detailed log that tells me exactly what happened. For example, by using the Opposed Roll script, I can tell if a poor swing still connected or a great swing still missed. I can also tell if the miss was due to a dodge, shield block, or armor absorption. I'm curious to know if anyone else has used something like battle fatigue to simluate the effects of damage during combat to give the standard HP system a Vitality/Wounds feel?
Mordrid Soud 09-11-06, 08:29 PM	Why not have it set up to where every hit you take does 1 point of wound damage, and the rest goes to vitality. On a critical hit, you could do half and half.... or if you are on of those evil dms, you could have all dmg go to wounds on a crit.
Jeremy757 09-11-06, 09:28 PM	Here is what I came up with for my group. Its simple, easy, and adds flavor to combat. When you take damage equal to or greater than your Con on a non-critical hit roll a Fort save vs a DC 15. If you fail by 5 or less you are staggered for one round, if you fail by 6 or more you are dazed for one round and become fatigued. When you take damage equal to or greater than your Con on a critical hit roll a Fort save vs. a DC 20. If you fail by 5 or less you are stunned for one round and become fatigued, if you fail by 6 or more you are disabled and become exhausted.
Ranger REG 09-12-06, 05:02 AM	Here is what I came up with for my group. Its simple, easy, and adds flavor to combat. When you take damage equal to or greater than your Con on a non-critical hit roll a Fort save vs a DC 15. If you fail by 5 or less you are staggered for one round, if you fail by 6 or more you are dazed for one round and become fatigued. When you take damage equal to or greater than your Con on a critical hit roll a Fort save vs. a DC 20. If you fail by 5 or less you are stunned for one round and become fatigued, if you fail by 6 or more you are disabled and become exhausted. Wouldn't it be easier to use a wound track system? You know divide the total hit points by 4 (as an example) for 4 wound tracks (staggered, fatigued, exhausted, stunned) and track damage, as you would check off a box in a track. When one track is full, you suffer that condition. Oh, almost forgot. When dividing hit points, any remainders are put on the final track.
Jeremy757 09-12-06, 08:00 AM	Wouldn't it be easier to use a wound track system? You know divide the total hit points by 4 (as an example) for 4 wound tracks (staggered, fatigued, exhausted, stunned) and track damage, as you would check off a box in a track. When one track is full, you suffer that condition. Oh, almost forgot. When dividing hit points, any remainders are put on the final track. Not really. This system give an effect for a hard blow without any extra extended record keeping. Plus I have never been a fan of any effect that divides hit points up into percentages. This way the amount of damage you have to take to get an effect remains constant, while your resistance to it gets better with experience. Plus, like I said before, this is easy to remember, easy to use, and adds some flavor to combat with only a minor change to the combat system. Edit: One other thing there is a design philosophy difference between my "brutal hit" system and your "wound track" system. Yours represents just another form of attrition, an affect that the players will always expect to recieve at certain points in combat. My system represents the sudden unexpected shock of combat. They won't always suffer from brutal strikes, but sometimes they will. Its an added elimate of suprise and danger.
Soulmage 09-12-06, 10:28 PM	Waaaaaay too complicated. If you want grittier, more realistic and more dangerous combat, check out the rules presented in the Black Company setting. (I think its still in my sig). If you click on the link it will take you to the BCCS product page. There you will find the design diaries for the setting, including one that deals with how they made the combat nastier.
Ranger REG 09-13-06, 12:39 AM	Not really. This system give an effect for a hard blow without any extra extended record keeping. Plus I have never been a fan of any effect that divides hit points up into percentages. This way the amount of damage you have to take to get an effect remains constant, while your resistance to it gets better with experience. Plus, like I said before, this is easy to remember, easy to use, and adds some flavor to combat with only a minor change to the combat system. So, like me, you hate White Wolf's Storyteller System too, huh? :D
Jeremy757 09-13-06, 01:49 AM	So, like me, you hate White Wolf's Storyteller System too, huh? :D lol. Well I wouldn't go that far. I like Storyteller though i don't have a lot of experience with combat, and its system doesn't really divide hit points into percentages. No matter how many hits you can take its only the last three dots that really matter. Which in a way makes it kind of similar to the Wounds/Vitality system.
Trevan0 09-13-06, 03:57 AM	I did away with hitpoints, wound points, and vitality points. I like realism too. So now, whenever a player character is hit, we give the same to the player. So whenever a player character is stabbed for example, we stab the player. This promotes realistic reactions and self preservation. Last month, one the player character's died in a fireball. I'll tell you now, that wasn't pretty. The worst part about it is i'm the DM! Every monster or NPC that is harmed, I take it by proxy. Cloud kills sure doesn't smell too good. Sessions are once a year. The rest of the year is spent recovering in the hospital (Or morgue, as necessary). We are SO hardcore.
MageDance 09-13-06, 04:35 AM	So, I'm not really chill with the idea of Vitality and Wound points as they stand in Unearthed Arcana................. Regardless, here we go: --------- Vitality is like regular hit points, as described in UA. Wound points are your constitution score (I'm considering adding bonus wound points per level, based on your class' hit die--makes you tougher) Damage: half goes to wounds, half goes to vitality. Wound point damage capped by 1+ ˝ BAB. This will be modified by: *1.5 with a two-handed weapon +1 for each die of Sneak Attack, Skirmish, or Sudden Strike +1 for each point of Insightful Strike. +1 for Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot, or +1 damage feats +2 for Weapon Specialization +1/4 points of sacrificed attack bonus/increased damage used with Power Attack or similar feats. Damage resistance only applies to Wound Points, not Vitality Points—armored characters may be whittled down and exhausted, then easily wounded. On a critical hit, use full BAB+1 as base for wound damage, 1.5*BAB with a x3 multiplier, and 2* for x4 multiplier, and so on. So, if you're a 6th level fighter wielding a battleaxe one-handed and get a critical hit, let's say you roll 32 damage. Your base wound damage is normally 1 + (6*.5), or 4. But since you rolled a critical, your base wound damage is 1+(6*1.5), or 10. Thus, half of the 32 damage goes to vitality (16) and half goes to wound points, while still being capped at 10. For spells, maximum wound damage is calculated as if a caster’s caster level were the BAB of the character; full casters like sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards have +1 each level, half casters like psychic warriors, bards, and such, have +3/4 each level, and quarter casters like rangers and paladins have +1/2 each level after 4. Feats like Spell Focus or a wizard's School Specialization increase this, but I'm not quite sure how, yet. So, a fireball cast by a 10th level sorceror rolls 32 damage. Half goes to vitality (representing shock, minor burns, and concussive force), and half goes to wounds, ca...................................... ............... What??? How does that go again?....... ... seriously, do you really think ya making things better?.... if you start changing the whole game in the same way, GURPS will look like Fighting Fantasy in matters of simplicity... leave HP's alone: a fixed number that goes down as u get hit is simple and works fine
MageDance 09-13-06, 04:39 AM	I did away with hitpoints, wound points, and vitality points. I like realism too. So now, whenever a player character is hit, we give the same to the player. So whenever a player character is stabbed for example, we stab the player. This promotes realistic reactions and self preservation. Last month, one the player character's died in a fireball. I'll tell you now, that wasn't pretty. The worst part about it is i'm the DM! Every monster or NPC that is harmed, I take it by proxy. Cloud kills sure don't smell too good. Sessions are once a year. The rest of the year is spent recovering in the hospital (Or morgue, as necessary). We are SO hardcore. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! funny as hell... (well.. maybe not as "hell" since hell probably isnt funny at all, but it was funny anyway)... just a question... what if you get Drain-Lifed? (you know, like a Succubus or something.......)... the image.. is a little... disturbing to me...
Jeremy757 09-13-06, 10:05 AM	I did away with hitpoints, wound points, and vitality points. I like realism too. So now, whenever a player character is hit, we give the same to the player. So whenever a player character is stabbed for example, we stab the player. This promotes realistic reactions and self preservation. Last month, one the player character's died in a fireball. I'll tell you now, that wasn't pretty. The worst part about it is i'm the DM! Every monster or NPC that is harmed, I take it by proxy. Cloud kills sure don't smell too good. Sessions are once a year. The rest of the year is spent recovering in the hospital (Or morgue, as necessary). We are SO hardcore. lol. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter so I can learn how to make fireballs and cloudkills, those would be great party tricks.
Ranger REG 09-13-06, 04:55 PM	I did away with hitpoints, wound points, and vitality points. I like realism too. Meh. 75% of what I do in a typical day everyday is realism. I'd like to at least spend the remaining 25% sleeping and escaping from reality. :P
Lesuit 09-13-06, 05:55 PM	I have been using the VWS for about six months in my home campaign and for the most part it seems to be working out fine. There are some issues. 1. Doing subdual damage. I think I have found a solution to this, but it involves keeping track of non-lethal vitality and non-lethal wounds damage. 2. Poison and stun attacks. I haven't yet figured out how to handle this. In theory I could either increase the threat range for venomous creatures or increase the damage done by their attacks and the damage done if a save is failed. Not sure what to do about stunning attacks though. I would gladdly listen to any advice folks have to offer on either of these. CJ
dizfactor 09-14-06, 03:06 AM	Why not have it set up to where every hit you take does 1 point of wound damage, and the rest goes to vitality. On a critical hit, you could do half and half.... or if you are on of those evil dms, you could have all dmg go to wounds on a crit. That's the standard rule in SWRPG, where the UA VP/WP rule was lifted from, actually. Normally, your VP function like HP in a standard D&D game: your opponent makes a successful attack, you take xDy+z damage, and it gets knocked off your VP. Most of the time, it's just like your standard D&D abstract damage system. However, if you have no VP left, then it get knocked off your WP. If you have no WP left, you're dying if not dead. Also, a (confirmed) critical hit (or a coup de grace against a helpless opponent) bypasses VP and goes straight to WP, which, seeing as how most characters only have somewhere between 9 and 18 WP, will quite frequently kill you dead. Also, the NPC classes don't get VP at all. Only people with heroic classes get them, which means that you can have high-end cannon fodder which stand a chance of hitting higher-level PCs, but who still go down quick when they themselves are hit (useful for "elite" stormtroopers, in the SWRPG). There are more complicated rules for maiming, for critical hit locations, etc, but none of them are really necessary. Another side effect is that healing magic becomes much less important. VP come back at the rate of (Your character level)/hour, so most of your HP equivalents heal on their own without much need for intervention. Basically, it works like D&D combat does now, except that critical hits are much more lethal, and can end fights right quick. Also, it's a bit more realistic, in that it makes a sharp distinction between "you're tired and bruised up from all this fighting" and "you've been stabbed and you're bleeding like a stuck pig all over the place." The VP are there to represent your growing skill in combat, so that you're increasingly avoiding blows that would have hit you (and hurt you) before, but over the course of a battle, you will get worn down and sloppy and eventually you'll just have to sit there and take it (and probably die). I really strongly prefer the system to the HP system, and I really don't see why people think it's any more complicated than HP.
Trevan0 09-14-06, 12:58 PM	Meh. 75% of what I do in a typical day everyday is realism. I'd like to at least spend the remaining 25% sleeping and escaping from reality. :P I can assure you, 25% of the players DO escape reality.
Ranger REG 09-14-06, 04:29 PM	I can assure you, 25% of the players DO escape reality. While 75% of the players realize their reality is risk-free and boring so they want to feel "death" or "dismemberment." :devil:
Jerks 09-14-06, 07:15 PM	I have been using the VWS for about six months in my home campaign and for the most part it seems to be working out fine. There are some issues. 1. Doing subdual damage. I think I have found a solution to this, but it involves keeping track of non-lethal vitality and non-lethal wounds damage. 2. Poison and stun attacks. I haven't yet figured out how to handle this. In theory I could either increase the threat range for venomous creatures or increase the damage done by their attacks and the damage done if a save is failed. Not sure what to do about stunning attacks though. I would gladdly listen to any advice folks have to offer on either of these. CJ I run nonlethal damage as found in Spycraft rules. You track it seperately. Once nonlethal equals your vitality you are staggered. If it exceeds the total of your vitality and wounds combined you are knocked unconscious. This makes nonlethal pretty effective against NPC classes as you can stagger them with just one hit. Of course, a two-handed power attack will kill the guy outright so I'm sure he'd rather wake with a headache than not wake up at all. As far as poison and stun attacks I just kinda hand wave that and run it as under the hit point system. Eventhough you only take vitality, it's easy enough to conceive that while you avoid being skewered by the giant scropian's barb, you do get a minor scratch that's enough to deliver the venom.