Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BelZoradon 06-08-05, 02:08 PM	Ok, my parties and I have been experimenting for a while with alternate hit/life systems due to several issues with the hit point system, the biggest among these being that decreasing hit points have no effect on a creature up until they are dying, this seems a little silly to us because I'm sorry but if you have a total of 200+ HP and are down to 10HP your going to be feeling the burn so to speak. The wound system found in UA solved all of our problems but this one, so I set about fixing the problem by fixing the wound system and this is what I have created. Any constructive criticsums or notes of blatent unbalancing flaws would be greatly appreciated. The wound system basics can be found on page #176 of Unearthed Arcana, the system is such that everytime a creature is hit & damaged it is able to try & shrug it off by making a fortitude save with a DC of (15+<damage dealt>/5) and every failed save was a -1 to the next save until the point that the creature failed a save by 10 or more, at that point the creature is dying. There are four problems with this system IMHO, first of these is that again it does not account for cumulating wounds impeading a creatures ablity to preform, second is that an elf weilding a rapier & a giant wielding a rock the size of a house deal out the same number of wounds, third problem is that this system does not account for hit die size, a cleric has the exact same chance to shrug off a wound as a barbarian of equal level, the last problem is that of massave damage, the wound system presented in UA does not account for massave damage at all. we shall now atempt to solve all these problems in the most elgant and efficent way starting with the first and making our way down. The first problem and the one orignally set for solving is the easier under the wound system is that of decreasing performance after many wounds. The first solution that springs to mind is that the -1s from a wound should apply to all rolls, but this seems a little harsh so a buffer is found in that a creature is able to ignore a number of wounds equal to her CON score before begining to take penalties to all her rolls. Our next two problems accually solve each other with a little bit of thought, the first of these problems being that no matter how much damage something does it will only deal one wound & and the second being that larger creatures and smaller creatures have the same chance of shruging off a wound as long as their fort saves are the same also by the same count more expreanced creatures with the same fortitude save as a less expreanced creature have the same chance of shruging off a wound, neither of those situations makes very much sence in my mind. By taking a creatures hit die size and number of hit dice and multiplying those numbers together, grouping like hit die together & adding the totals of differing hit die size groups together as needed, we are able create a unique "wound cap" for that creature, this number tells us the amount of damage that creature can take in a single hit without taking multipule wounds. Therefore all damage being dealt is divided by the creatures unique "wound cap", rounded down to a minimum of 1, and the creature must save against that many wounds in a row, leaving our wound formula looking like this Fortitude (save DC 15+<damage dealt>/5)*<# of wounds>. Having said all that we are left with but one problem, massave damage or the one hit kill, again a simple, effecant and elegant solution can be found. If a strike would deal enough damage to a creature that the number of wounds dealt is greater then the creatures unique "wound cap" the creature does not get a save but simply becomes dying.
ShinZero 06-08-05, 03:20 PM	Check out Mutants and Maaterminds...Green Ronin...its has the best wound system Ive ever seen and rules for coverting back and forth between HP systems. It is a Superhero game, but uses D20 rules. It does what you want (without the silly math...dmg/5...yeah lets play with a calculater) is fast as hell and very realistic. The basic rules skip the cumulative penalty to all rolls, but add it as an optional rule. The big problem is that there will be cases of auto-kills. The game handles them allowing heroes to use Hero points to negate them. Id suggest adopting that as well, or not. Bloody games can be good to, depends what you want.
BelZoradon 06-08-05, 11:48 PM	ok ill check that out... and the divide by 5 thing isnt really all that hard... just requires a little thinking... thanks for the book name
ShinZero 06-10-05, 01:13 PM	No problem. Let me know how it goes.
shiffd 06-11-05, 10:57 AM	Ok, my parties and I have been experimenting for a while with alternate hit/life systems due to several issues with the hit point system, the biggest among these being that decreasing hit points have no effect on a creature up until they are dying, this seems a little silly to us because I'm sorry but if you have a total of 200+ HP and are down to 10HP your going to be feeling the burn so to speak. The wound system found in UA solved all of our problems but this one, so I set about fixing the problem by fixing the wound system and this is what I have created. Any constructive criticsums or notes of blatent unbalancing flaws would be greatly appreciated. wow, Interesting stuff. I'm looking up all the HP stuff I can. I'm thinking that when you subtract the number of your con from your wounds, DAMN that's a lot of wounds. How many wounds do we need anyway? I mean your point about the giant with a stong club. So wizzie takes -con wounds from that club before worrying about it? M aybe I missunderstood. Anyway we agree on the problems with the HP system. I don't like complex wound systems, cuz well they are complex. I like to make every single hit a wound. If it does damage you got a wound somewhere. ITs fun to give players something to rollplay. "you got a pump the size of an orange on your head" "he just cut your thumb off, you might want to find it in the grass later (hehe spot check)" stuff like that. Anyway DM discretion. The more damage taken, the more serious the wound. Match wound to weapon and other common sense things. If for some reason you got bad blood/feelings with teh player, best not to wound them. IF they get hit, let them wound themselves (IE let them decide what kinda wound they got as long as its appropriate to the damage amount)
BelZoradon 06-12-05, 11:47 AM	ok you did misunderstand the con thing... a creature can take a number of wounds equal to his con score before it starts to bother him yes its complex... but my players for the most part like complex so it works for us and as for single hit is a single wound... that takes WAY to much ajudicating for my personal style and i dont mind sitting through the 20 extra secounds it takes to figure out how many wounds that hit was and make fort saves
shiffd 06-13-05, 06:35 AM	ok you did misunderstand the con thing... a creature can take a number of wounds equal to his con score before it starts to bother him yes its complex... but my players for the most part like complex so it works for us and as for single hit is a single wound... that takes WAY to much ajudicating for my personal style and i dont mind sitting through the 20 extra secounds it takes to figure out how many wounds that hit was and make fort saves cool beans, I understand now. So the con thing was just for creatures, I like that idea. Anyway I don't like hte abstract HP thing. It includes elements of Luck, Fatigue and whoknowswhatelse. Anyway it kinda takes simple concepts and duplicates them since fatigue and luck also play a role in other areas, so its like tracking the same feature in a whole buncha statistcal categories and stuff. But anyway the way I play you don't get hit that often so I'd actually end up describing very few wounds. I agree describing a lot of wounds isn't worth the trouble. I think anyone woudl agree that never describing or dealing with any wound is a big loss of a rollplay opportunity. Something for all those DND folks to consider, from what I've seen online (and tabletop aint much different) 99% of hits do not create wounds that are described or dealt with in any unique way (IE you just heal or get a spell, no discomfort concept, scarring, rehab -rollplaying etc.). ON top of that about 50% of hits aren't even described, although they are healed from.
solandras 06-14-05, 02:58 AM	Me and another DM friend of mine actually use a pretty simple system. It's the Vitality/Wounds thing from Star Wars D20, although slightly altered. It was remade for DnD in the Unearthed Arcana book. Firstly no taking -2 to Str and Dex (I think that's how it worked) when you take wound damage. However, to make it more realistic, you take a penalty to all attack rolls and skills checks (maybe a few more things, but that's all that really ever came up in game so far) equal to the number of wounds taken. Example 1)The peasants revolt, a normal lvl 1 commoner is up against a lvl 1 warrior (the town guard). Commoner takes a swing with a sickle, most likely not hitting. The guard takes a swing with a long sword, crits and does 8 wounds...a good hit. The commoner is throughly dying and doesn't stand any chance in a fight any longer. This is the very realistic approach that I like. Example 2)You are a hardcore fighter, like lvl 20. You come up against a Pit Fiend who crits, meaning it is suppose to REALLY FRICKEN HURT. He ends up doing 15 damage. So now you have a massive hole in you, and you are bleeding like crazy, obviously you should be taking some kind of penalty. Under my system that guy would be taking a -15 pen to all attack rolls and skill checks, signifying if he doesn't get help and quickly, he'll probably die. This follows the same pattern as before, but means that even though he has those massive wounds, he's still a hero of legends and could continue fighting fairly decently (even with the -15, the dude could take out a crap load of minor stuff with ease, as well as he still has all his vital left, but another good hit would finish him) I have other rules to compliment this, like armor granting DR and stuff....but that's for another topic
shiffd 06-14-05, 04:13 AM	Me and another DM friend of mine actually use a pretty simple system. It's the Vitality/Wounds thing from Star Wars D20, although slightly altered. It was remade for DnD in the Unearthed Arcana book. Firstly no taking -2 to Str and Dex (I think that's how it worked) when you take wound damage. However, to make it more realistic, you take a penalty to all attack rolls and skills checks (maybe a few more things, but that's all that really ever came up in game so far) equal to the number of wounds taken. Example 1)The peasants revolt, a normal lvl 1 commoner is up against a lvl 1 warrior (the town guard). Commoner takes a swing with a sickle, most likely not hitting. The guard takes a swing with a long sword, crits and does 8 wounds...a good hit. The commoner is throughly dying and doesn't stand any chance in a fight any longer. This is the very realistic approach that I like. Example 2)You are a hardcore fighter, like lvl 20. You come up against a Pit Fiend who crits, meaning it is suppose to REALLY FRICKEN HURT. He ends up doing 15 damage. So now you have a massive hole in you, and you are bleeding like crazy, obviously you should be taking some kind of penalty. Under my system that guy would be taking a -15 pen to all attack rolls and skill checks, signifying if he doesn't get help and quickly, he'll probably die. This follows the same pattern as before, but means that even though he has those massive wounds, he's still a hero of legends and could continue fighting fairly decently (even with the -15, the dude could take out a crap load of minor stuff with ease, as well as he still has all his vital left, but another good hit would finish him) I have other rules to compliment this, like armor granting DR and stuff....but that's for another topic You peeked my interest on Armor granting DR. There are a lot of systems out there like that, but I'm interested in systems dealing with called shots and beating the armor by finding weak spots. Do you have a system for what the penalty to hit is if you want to avoid the armor (and therefore its DR)?
solandras 06-15-05, 12:41 PM	You peeked my interest on Armor granting DR. There are a lot of systems out there like that, but I'm interested in systems dealing with called shots and beating the armor by finding weak spots. Do you have a system for what the penalty to hit is if you want to avoid the armor (and therefore its DR)? Actually yeah we do. Firstly there are many ways of doing the armor/DR thing. I personally take 1/2 the AC bonus is giving to armor 1/2 giving to DR, with the higher being DR. (EX: Fullplate normally gives +8 AC...I would make it +4AC and +4 DR). My friend gives full AC to armor, but whatever half the AC bonus is, gives as DR on top of it. (Ex: Fullplate would give +8AC AND +4DR). Obviously if you it a spot w/o armor it gets past the AC and DR. An example would be a chain shirt, if you attack a leg, you would bypass it all. Shield however always give bonus to AC as they are always used for deflecting blows, not minimizing their effects. Normally it is assumed you hit for the easiest, most abudant spot, the chest. As such that is handled normally. Next the arm/leg area gives a -2 pen, but has a chance of getting past the armor (pending on the armor) and in my system automatically deals one wound. The person then also takes a -2 penalty for any actions using that arm until it is healed. Next the hand/foot area gives a -4 pen, but will usually get past armor unless they are wearing guantlets or boots. As before, it deals one wound, and the person can now not use that was hit cannot use that hand or foot at all until it is healed. It terms of a foot hit, half their movement rate. Next is the head. This gives a -6 penalty to hit and could get past armor if they don't wear a helmet or if you use a bow and shoot through the holes. Again a wound, and also the person takes a -5 penalty on all actions due to the massive head trauma. This lasts until it is healed. Next is any extremity, like eye, fingertip, left nostril, whatever. This takes a -10 penalty and can have various effects, but in all cases that extremity is destroyed outright.
shiffd 06-16-05, 12:42 AM	Actually yeah we do. Firstly there are many ways of doing the armor/DR thing. I personally take 1/2 the AC bonus is giving to armor 1/2 giving to DR, with the higher being DR. (EX: Fullplate normally gives +8 AC...I would make it +4AC and +4 DR). My friend gives full AC to armor, but whatever half the AC bonus is, gives as DR on top of it. (Ex: Fullplate would give +8AC AND +4DR). Obviously if you it a spot w/o armor it gets past the AC and DR. An example would be a chain shirt, if you attack a leg, you would bypass it all. Shield however always give bonus to AC as they are always used for deflecting blows, not minimizing their effects. Normally it is assumed you hit for the easiest, most abudant spot, the chest. As such that is handled normally. Next the arm/leg area gives a -2 pen, but has a chance of getting past the armor (pending on the armor) and in my system automatically deals one wound. The person then also takes a -2 penalty for any actions using that arm until it is healed. Next the hand/foot area gives a -4 pen, but will usually get past armor unless they are wearing guantlets or boots. As before, it deals one wound, and the person can now not use that was hit cannot use that hand or foot at all until it is healed. It terms of a foot hit, half their movement rate. Next is the head. This gives a -6 penalty to hit and could get past armor if they don't wear a helmet or if you use a bow and shoot through the holes. Again a wound, and also the person takes a -5 penalty on all actions due to the massive head trauma. This lasts until it is healed. Next is any extremity, like eye, fingertip, left nostril, whatever. This takes a -10 penalty and can have various effects, but in all cases that extremity is destroyed outright. Thanks, I've been thinking a lot about this system. I used something similar. -6 to anything but body (arms, legs, head hands). -10 to specific limb (head, specific arm or leg) and -16 to specific point (eye(visor hole in helm etc.), joint (a gap in armor plating)). Also -12 for face with an open faced helm, but still a helm. Anyway my penalties are a little more radical. I would use your penalties if the intended victim was unaware of the attack or flatfooted. (IE most missle situations) In combat it is difficult to pick a spot and only attack it, basically its distractive to ones overall strategy. Also it makes for sense to the DR system, cuz if its easier to avoid the armor than beat the DR, then there would be no piont to wearing armor in the first place.
BelZoradon 06-16-05, 09:29 AM	solandras: it sounds like you guys are already kinda doing the same thing with wounds we are... we just give the players a buffer before they start taking penalties for wounds shiffd: keep in mind that the con thing works for players too... cause unless your a construct or undead your a creature (due to a lack of CON undead and constructs dont care about wounds at all and still use the HP system) and i have often thought about an armor is soak system and half half sounds like it accually work pretty well... i might just try that
Sinaz 06-16-05, 07:12 PM	How's this for a system I just made up on the fly: For the sake of this system, HP represent your overall vitality. As you lose HP, you begin to suffer battle fatigue. When you are below 50% HP, you suffer -1 on all roles. Below 25%, -2 on rolls. Now, all uncalled shots deal damage to the trunk and shoulders, damage a seasoned adventurer can swallow during the heat of combat. But, using your penalties for called shots, taking more than 1HD worth of damage in a called shot after modifiers and DR (i.e.-12 or more damage for a D12 HD PC) injures that portion of the body, suffering -1 on rolls appropriately. This appropriateness is adjucated by the DM. Examples are -1 to DEX for leg injuries, -1 to Melee for dominant arm injury, -1 to AC for shield/nondominant arm, etc. Injuries stack. If your PC takes 1/4 or more damage on a called shot, that body part is disabled, -4 penalties appropriately plus additional effects, such as falling to your knees from a disabled leg. I think this could potentially cripple your PC before your hitpoints let up, but it's a thought. Remember that all the creatures you fight are going to suffer the same penalties.
shiffd 06-17-05, 05:11 AM	How's this for a system I just made up on the fly: For the sake of this system, HP represent your overall vitality. As you lose HP, you begin to suffer battle fatigue. When you are below 50% HP, you suffer -1 on all roles. Below 25%, -2 on rolls. Now, all uncalled shots deal damage to the trunk and shoulders, damage a seasoned adventurer can swallow during the heat of combat. But, using your penalties for called shots, taking more than 1HD worth of damage in a called shot after modifiers and DR (i.e.-12 or more damage for a D12 HD PC) injures that portion of the body, suffering -1 on rolls appropriately. This appropriateness is adjucated by the DM. Examples are -1 to DEX for leg injuries, -1 to Melee for dominant arm injury, -1 to AC for shield/nondominant arm, etc. Injuries stack. If your PC takes 1/4 or more damage on a called shot, that body part is disabled, -4 penalties appropriately plus additional effects, such as falling to your knees from a disabled leg. I think this could potentially cripple your PC before your hitpoints let up, but it's a thought. Remember that all the creatures you fight are going to suffer the same penalties. I'm rethinking this. If we want to use a wound system why? To create realism? Well if the system we implement a wound system in on top of is already not designed or catered towards realism WHY try and implement some? We shouldn't try and compromise I think. Either give up on realism or think hard and clear and create realism. Go black or white. Gray gives you lack of realism and complicated mechanics, so you miss both goals. That said the system above still isn't very realistic but rather invites a new gaming mechanic. It seems to be more complication and more to keep track of. WIth a mass of stats (HP etc.) and enlongated combat its just too much of a hastle, unless you like hastles. Some people like crunching numbers and rolling it all out, mustering up the right character with the right tweak of stats to beat the system. Anyway I see problems describing situations effectively. I see problems with complicated rules calculations, lots of scratchpaper etc.
shiffd 06-17-05, 05:23 AM	Now, all uncalled shots deal damage to the trunk and shoulders, damage a seasoned adventurer can swallow during the heat of combat. This is exactly the type of ignorance that D&D breeds. The trunk is the most dangerous injury area of the entire human body. Guy comes into ER with wound to leg or arm. As long as he's not bleeding still-LET HIM WAIT TILL THE CRITICAL CASES ARE DEALT WITH Guy comes into ER with wound to the abdomen-X-RAY, VITAL CHECK, SURGERY CONSULT Everything that is important to the body is in the abodmen, You can't 'SOAK' lung injuries, heart injuries, splean injuries, kidney injuries etc. Also the arteries of the abodomen are much more dangerous than those in the legs or arms. IF you hit an artery in someones body they are almost guaranteed to bleed to death and most likely bleed to death internally. The arteries in the body are too close to the heart, too big and have too much pressure in them to clot quickly and safely. If someone keeps fighting (moving) after an abdomen injury it will often lead to quick death. If they are experienced they will drop and tend the wound, if they are lucky and it missed artery, lungs, heart etc. then they can keep going. Arm and leg injuries are the safe ones, the limb can be used even and blood loss is much slower and can be stood for a longer time without as much risk to the person as blood loss from the body cavity. Think about boxing. Do boxers hit eachother in the arms and legs? Or do they strike the trunk. WHy the trunk? Because it causes the most stress and injury. Striking the trunk is the quickest way to weaken your apponent, boxers have known that for centuries.
BelZoradon 06-17-05, 10:52 AM	Sinaz: can i hit you with a battle axe in the shoulder sometime... just to test your seasoned adventurer theory? even using SCA or ampguard type weapons and rules a body shot is an instant kill... to say nothing of the fact that a good hit knocks the wind out of you Shiffd: without intruducing called shots, which in my experance tend to be over powered at later levels (anything beyond 12 or so), i would say the system i have created and posted gives us decent realism, which was my intent and doesnt require much in the way of number crunching or put a huge strain on me to ajudicate every hit i thank everyone for their comments but if we could stay on topic, the topic being a NON-HP baced damage handling system under the d20 rules, that would just be grand
Sinaz 06-17-05, 12:09 PM	Holy shizzle people... I just made up a damage system on the spur of the moment to contribute to the thread, and I start getting mocked and blamed of ignorance. Just to clarify things, I meant that most attacks are going towards the upper body core area (as a game mechanic,) and because most people in combat position thier body to defend the trunk area and face (boxing, yes, most unarmed combat, fencing angles the trunk and puts the blade ahead of the body, etc) that an experienced fighter (or... ahem FANTASY warrior) will be able to deflect, parry, dodge most blows "shrugging" them off to less severe blows (as a GAME MECHANIC.) The combat fatigue I mention represents this as an overall taxing of the trunk and core of the body. So... Shiffd, I am AWARE of the severity of damage to the core area of the body... I am afterall, in real life, a reservist with combat first aid and life saving training... I was attempting to gloss over some 'concepts' of combat in such a way to make a wound system without applying HP to each vital organ. BelZoradan (or whatever) I am not a seasoned adventurer. I'm a desk jockey with some military training and very little practical experience. I doubt I personally could shrug off a battle axe hurled at my arm. If I got up today and got a letter sending me to Iraq, I'd consider myself a level 1 soldier. Now... that I've clarified my point of view, can you guys give me a little slack, and criticize my wound system, (that I remind you, I came up with literally in the time it took to write it in this thread) and not my lack of real life great-axe combat experience? Jeeze... :rolleyes:
Sinaz 06-17-05, 12:11 PM	I'm rethinking this. If we want to use a wound system why? To create realism? Well if the system we implement a wound system in on top of is already not designed or catered towards realism WHY try and implement some? We shouldn't try and compromise I think.... Incidentally, despite you calling me ignorant for designing a game mechanic, I initially agree with this statement here. I'm continuing with plain and simple HP system unless my players want more. (I was just trying to contribute with my ignorant attempt at wound simulation)
the_one_true_shea 06-17-05, 12:22 PM	SO you and your group really want a harsh analysis of injury that doesnt take too much time or paper to track (not much more than the current system anyway ). Questions : Are you married to the VP/WP system? Called shots and hit locations are stupid right? What you want is the realism that is found in many action movies. From action hero to kung fu - the warrior who fights with bleeding feet - and you want to be able to notice the check penalties? You make players roll balance to walk accross mildly cluttered rooms (or at least force them to take ten) ? One more question .. I know (obviously) that you want the system to be something that you can play with readily.. easily, even effortlessly in game ... in the table play if you will.. but are you willing to change more rules than just the HP? Are you satisfied with the social conflict systems of SRD20? Have you heard of Blood, Sweat, and Tears?
solandras 06-17-05, 12:35 PM	Thanks, I've been thinking a lot about this system. I used something similar. -6 to anything but body (arms, legs, head hands). -10 to specific limb (head, specific arm or leg) and -16 to specific point (eye(visor hole in helm etc.), joint (a gap in armor plating)). Also -12 for face with an open faced helm, but still a helm. Anyway my penalties are a little more radical. I would use your penalties if the intended victim was unaware of the attack or flatfooted. (IE most missle situations) In combat it is difficult to pick a spot and only attack it, basically its distractive to ones overall strategy. Also it makes for sense to the DR system, cuz if its easier to avoid the armor than beat the DR, then there would be no piont to wearing armor in the first place. I'm assuming you use these higher numbers because normally it is kinda difficult to get AC up high. As one last system change I have is the class bonus to AC. No not the one from Unearthed Arcana, that is way too much. I adapted the one from the Star Wars d20. So instead of like +6 bonus at first level for a fighter, they would get +3. Although that friend of mine also thought of a simple way of doing it...(BAB/2) +2. Which works well for all characters as well as monsters.
Me, Myself, & 101 others 06-17-05, 09:57 PM	Anyone here ever played Deadlands? They used a wound system I always rather liked. In short, when you hit you rolled a d20 to determine hit location there were Left Leg, Right Leg, Lower Guts, Gizzards, Left Arm, Right Arm, Upper Guts, and Noggin (excuse the terminology, it was after all a western-style game). Then you'd roll damage, and for every full multiple of your target's size (medium would be 6), they take one wound to that area. Any wounds to either of the guts area and/or the gizzards were added together, and each other area had a total of five would levels: Light, Heavy, Serious, Critical, and Maimed. For wound penalties, they took a -1 per wound level, but they only used the highest wound level. So, if you had a heavy wound (-2) in the arm and a critical wound (-4) in the leg, you'd take -4 on pretty much all your rolls. If a limb became maimed, it was gone, either crushed, severed, burned off, or whatever. It would be beyond the ability of normal Cure spells, requiring Regeneration or similiar. A total wound level of Maimed in the head (noggin) or body (guts) meant you died. If an attack doesn't do enough damage to cause a wound level, they take that many points of 'wind' instead, wind is kind of like hitpoints. Each wound level taken also causes 1d6 points of wind damage. Bleeding is also figured in wind damage, a seriously wounded character loses 1 wind per round, critically wounded lose 2, and severed limbs lose 3. Generally speaking, characters had much less wind than D&D characters had hitpoints, so I might up the wind damage from d6. Also, you didn't die from wind damage until you had a negative score in wind equal to your normal score (if you had 15 wind, you could go to -15). I'd probably use the normal -10 rule for death. That always seemed like a fairly realistic system to me, and it actually flows pretty quickly once you get used to it.
BelZoradon 06-17-05, 10:29 PM	the_one_true_shea: no im not married to the wound point system but it solves more problems then the hit point system, if you have a better option that covers all of the issues listed in my opening please share it. no i dont think called shots are stupid but in every incarnation i have seen them in they are over powered. that sort of realism isnt posible in a table top pen and paper game IMHO but a higher level of realism then is provided by the core rules is what my players like. no i cant say i have ever thought it took balance to walk accross a cluttered room, but running or charging maybe. no im not afraid to change other rules, as a matter of facted my play group has changed more then a few rules to suit our own views of role(roll) play. also as a matter of fact the social conflict rules are among those we have tried (and failed a number of times) to revise, but it usually only comes up when im to lazy to flesh out a whole damn npc for them to buy goods in town due to the fact that we role play most interactions Sinaz: im sry i ment no offence, you simply misrepresented yourself and i found your way of seeing things as they seemed a bit ammusing and simply ment to jest Me, Myself & friends: no i have never played deadlands (well i played the ccg but thats beside the point) but from your description of the wound system in that it does sound like it answers alot of above stated issues but not those of experance, hit die & hit die size and the like. but i will most definantly look into the system (and the game but thats because im a bit of a role play freak)
shiffd 06-17-05, 11:14 PM	Wow this has been a great conversation with a lot of ideas. GOOD! Sinaz, sorry for flaming at you. I misread your post. By soak or whatever you meant shrugg/deflect etc. I thought you meant 'grit and bear it'. Obviously you know that's not possible with body cavity injuries, I'm sorry for calling you ignorant. I definitely wont do it again! Anyway that has to do with the accuracy of hte attack in my opinion in contrast to the ability of the defender IE I think it should be dealt with at a Attack VS Defense level. If its a hit, its a hit andstuff. Anyway I like the Blue rose system, maybe I need to tweak it a little but it looks nice. I like leaving the descriptions of wounds up to the DM> If we want to make the character extra lucky for the sake of heroism, I'd say forgo rolling it and just describe it in a realistic way. So anyway since we are talking about wound system, I just say make the seriousness of the wound reflective of the accuracy of the strike, something which I think should be determined by the attackers abilities VS the defenders ability IE attack VS. defense. Defense thus including automatic increase with experience (level). Obviously that AC bonus is only applicable when said character is actively defending against an attack. If someone hits well successfully then its a serious wound-period. If they barely hit, then its barely a wound (scratch on the forearm, thigh etc.)That's how I like to do it and stuff.
Me, Myself, & 101 others 06-17-05, 11:33 PM	Me, Myself & friends: no i have never played deadlands (well i played the ccg but thats beside the point) but from your description of the wound system in that it does sound like it answers alot of above stated issues but not those of experance, hit die & hit die size and the like. but i will most definantly look into the system (and the game but thats because im a bit of a role play freak) I never really believed 'experience' was a good reason for ignoring damage. I could see it making you somewhat harder to his, so I could kind of see some sort of AC bonus, but I always figured once you were shot in the chest, you were shot in the chest. Like say two people get shot at, one guy has been running around fighting and adventuring for years, the other is just some peasent off the farm. Now, say the first guy doesn't get hit, and the second one does. When asked why he didn't get hit, the seasoned adventurer could say "Experience" and it's sort of believable. But, say they both get hit, and the first guy stays standing up and the second goes down, if ask why he wasn't hurt as badly, the answer "Experience" doesn't make too much sense, at least not to me. It is, after all, still an arrow protruding out of something you deem important (yourself).
shiffd 06-18-05, 12:38 AM	It is, after all, still an arrow protruding out of something you deem important (yourself). LOL, That was awesome. Hey, I see we are like minded. Anyway if you could invite likeminded people to play in a game that I'm trying to start, or if you could invite me somewhere to play a game that takes said statement above into consideration I'd appreciate it! Anyway I'm starting a game over at plothook. I'm gonna try and implement some stuff from Blue Rose that I just looked up plus my own ideas. Anyway when it gets down to it we can poll the interested parties on the nitty gritty's, YOu know do we use X or Y. -8 to attack or -6, simple stuff like that. But will only work if we start with a group of people that agree on the basics and are willing to map out the details by comittee, if theres disagreement DM dictates the decision to DM's liking. Basic idea is we don't use HP and stuff.
BelZoradon 06-18-05, 02:50 PM	i can see your point of view but after 18+ years of martial arts training i would have to say i dont agree... you know youve missed a block and you move in such a way to minimize the impact of that blow, its something you train and something that you just sorta learn... thats what i mean about experance mattering, it doesnt mean you dont get it... it means getting hit "means less"
Me, Myself, & 101 others 06-18-05, 05:49 PM	i can see your point of view but after 18+ years of martial arts training i would have to say i dont agree... you know youve missed a block and you move in such a way to minimize the impact of that blow, its something you train and something that you just sorta learn... thats what i mean about experance mattering, it doesnt mean you dont get it... it means getting hit "means less" I understand what you're saying, and in a very limitted way I agree with you. That is, you can indeed learn how to "take a punch". If you fight a lot, be it with martial arts, boxing, or just fighting, you can indeed take a punch better than someone else. This would translate in D&D to non-lethal damage, and in the Deadlands system like I posted above (or any similiar system) you would only take damage in 'wind.' Not to knock your training, but if they were doing any form of lethal damage, you wouldn't be here today. If you're training, say sparring with a partner, and one of you gets a sprain, a broken bone, or something, it means at least one of you screwed up and an accident occurred. However, in a real battle, people will be using real trauma-inducing weapons with an intent to kill one another. However, you can -not- learn to "take an arrow." There's no amount of training that equips you for a sword stuck through your chest. Experience does not enable one to shrug off an axe blow. To use a more modern day example, if someone were to take a 9mm and shoot you, Jet Li, and I all in the chest, we'd all have roughly the same odds of living. I can see experience reducing the likeliness someone gets hit. I could even see it reducing the wound penalties, as they would be more used to pain and better equipped to fight through it. I think I'd probably require a feat for something like that, though, or being in the midst of the Barbarian's rage. But, the human body can only take so much trauma before it ceases to function. I could see someone who's really experienced being able partially deflect a blow in melee to a less critical area, but even still in it shouldn't be easy. I would either make it a feat or allow someone to sacrifice their attack and attempt a desperation parry after they know they're getting hit (if they've already used all their actions for the round, oh well). I'd probably allow them to +/- 1-2 from the hit location roll so that they can maybe take a head shot in the arm, for instance. I wouldn't allow such a roll/action on any kind of ranged attack unless they had deflect arrows or something similiar. I wouldn't allow it on any attack where they were denied their dex bonus, surpised, sneak attacked, or the like. I also wouldn't allow it on critical hits, since a critical hit means not only did they hit but they hit in a 'better' spot. But, I'd still keep the same number of wounds for most people. I'd rework the feat 'toughness' so that it gives an extra wound level, but that'd be about it. Non-lethal damage I'd make do hitpoint damage (like wind from Deadlands). Regular damage would cause wounds, plus a certain amount of hitpoint damage. Bleeding would occur, also in hitpoint damage. Wound penalties would occur, from wound levels, though I can see these being partially or wholly ignored do to a combination of feats, experience, or barbarian rage. I could see experience levels granting improved AC, but I don't think I'd implement it. The classes who train this way (such as monks, swashbucklers, and the like) generally already have this ability. A fighter, for example, doesn't get an inherent AC bonus because most of his training goes to how to inflict damage, not how to prevent it, and he could get feats (such as dodge and what not) to show he's learning to prevent it, too. I'd probabably also put in something to help you deflect a blow to a less lethal portion of your anatomy, but I wouldn't allow this to change the number of wounds, and it would only be useful in certain situations (essentially, head-on fighting where you're aware of and concentrating on your attacker). For example: Me: "The rogue steps out of the shadows behind you, thrusting a dagger into your back for 32 damage, inflicting 5 wound levels to your body." Player: "I call on my experience and training, deflecting this to a less critical portion of my anatomy." Me: "No."
BelZoradon 06-19-05, 11:03 AM	while i do agree with you most i have been in fights where people were trying to use lethal force against me and even the non-lethal force of the dojo teaches you getting hit is NOT fun therefore that last minute dodge becomes instinct even so you are correct an arrow sticking out of any part of your annotomy sucks ass, yes that is experance talking, or an axe bearing down on your liver and im willing to bet that bullets suck too and WAY to fast to dodge but in a fantacy setting i honestly cant see anything moving faster then someones survival instinct also it doesnt account for weapons or attacks that do retarded ammounts of damage so here i think we will just have to agree to disagree but it is something to concitter after testing the current system somemore another point ive always had a bit of concern with but i think you have may have solved, despite making things a touch more complex, is what to do with wounds that do only a few points of damage (always the last wound in a set incidently), it always seemed a little silly to me that a hit of one or two points of damage would cause a creature to take a penalty but if you get enough scratches you can still bleed to death, therefore anytime a wound would do less then 1/4th of a creatures wound cap will be set aside in that creatures scratch/wind damage pool until such time that it DOES equal (or greater then) 1/4th of that creatures wound cap at which point it becomes a subdual wound without save
shiffd 06-20-05, 05:53 AM	Anytime your dealing with point threshholds and whatnot its not gonna be realistic. So that scratch that kills the monster, the straw that breaks the camels back etc. is always gonna be there. It is realistc that the person would slow down to teh point that they pass out (blood loss etc.). But that last little nick isn't as realistic an indicator as say time or exertion. Its just a game mechanic which is trying to encompass reality. And stuff. Anyway non-serious injuries could be generally thought of as that, and serious as serious. So instead of wound points and damage points and what not, just consider each wound by its category (could be a point category) and make a wound on the character based on that category. Then deal as is. So then even if you've got some serious wounds a nick or bruise later on down the line wont kill you, itll just do what a nick or bruise normally does-ie basically nothing.
BelZoradon 06-20-05, 11:52 AM	lol and always the solution comes back to white-wolf the idea was hopefully to just keep to two kinds of wounds... the kind that kill you and the kind that knock you out, that being lethal and subdual, and thats the funny thing about subdual wounds under my system they start applying penalties to all rolls right out of the gate, no CON score buffer (its a very non lethal game)... i prolly should have said that about the subdual damage back in the origanal post huh... oops
the_one_true_shea 06-21-05, 12:42 PM	ok, i say sorry now, but Im obviously not reversing my -logize, No, im not gonna post my mod cause its not pretty yet, though I will return to this thread to link it, Im gonna put it up in d20 general cause its not D&D specific. - that said heres some things, You cant ignore wounds, that act of ignoring the pain.. thats what causes the penalty - SO (using HP for this - vp.wp - never used it) you create for yourself a wound threshhold - similar to DR, but its the difference between wounds that hurt and wounds that just bother you. For each attack that exceeds your wound threshold you take a "wound" and you are at a penalty. Penaltys should be decided by the description of the attack - yeah - to monkey with hit locations - adds an extra roll to every attack! "I swing at his head, I hit! 8 Damage.. thats above his wound threshold? -2 to spot 'blood in your eyes" the -2 situational modifiers are your best freind right? Well give em a call, This also give your character a scar record - every wound that is sufficient to actually hurt also get listed on the character sheet as a disablity. Wounds can be treated to negate the penalty for a number of hours based on the heal check. And, if not treated you will continue to suffer the penalty, even after a full natural healing - (you know how it goes) "that leg, it healed wrong and jeb aint walked strait since" Two reasons to use this - no need for hit locations - use the description, the penalties are equanamious (sp?) so its only flavor to get hit in the head vs the leg. And, simple (determine wound threshold, then compare damage results to threshold - if necessary mark a wound on your sheet and suffer penalties) Instead of a progressive breakdown 100% -50% -10% -0% status conditions, you have hit points being tracked seperatly, and cummulative breakdown effects being caused from actual large damage attacks - (burns? -2 concentration?) You may want to consider wound threshold as an x over concept as well - aka if the wound threshold is X you take a wound for every X amount of damage you take in one hit. SO really big hits would give you wounds that were -4 or -6 or more. And, Hit Points - I think that many people (here and elsewhere) have a mistaken idea about what Hit Points represent. They arnt really representing your "pysical integrity" a successful strike that deals hit point damage does not have to "have hit you" HP represents your combat rediness. You action potential or something. A sword swing that deal say 8 dmage may have glanced very close to your face - but if you have 80 hp you may not have even lost any blood. Ability damge is more directly "physical injury" as we know it irl. I would continue to wax about how the HP system works - but Im trying to fix it, so I think its broken, so I wont. The largest question as to whether you want to use my BST system (instead of just the wound system), is do you like the social skill rules as they are. I will declare that there are three hp pools in BST - Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
shiffd 06-21-05, 06:15 PM	And, Hit Points - I think that many people (here and elsewhere) have a mistaken idea about what Hit Points represent. They arnt really representing your "pysical integrity" a successful strike that deals hit point damage does not have to "have hit you" HP represents your combat rediness. You action potential or something. A sword swing that deal say 8 dmage may have glanced very close to your face - but if you have 80 hp you may not have even lost any blood. Ability damge is more directly "physical injury" as we know it irl. I would continue to wax about how the HP system works - but Im trying to fix it, so I think its broken, so I wont. Ummm...... You have an interesting opiniono f what hippoints are. Did you get that definition out of one of PHB or DMG? I don't think so. People are not mistaken, the rules of most RPG's that use HitPoints do consider them a pool from which to take damage from. Not some pool for avoiding hits with. For you that may be what it represents and you may fantasize all different ways of making HP realistic. But don't go as far as to think people are mistaken about what it says in the rulebooks of HP systems. People are not mistaken if they are going by what hte masses use HP as adn are unaware of your opinion of what HP is suppose to represent. If you think thats what HP represents for the larger community of roleplayers then you are the one who is mistaken. Most DM's describe every hit that takes HP as a hit and thats the way the books pretty much tell you to do it.
the_one_true_shea 06-21-05, 06:43 PM	I base my presumptions about hit point in the way that they manifest in the game. You do not suffer any penalties untill 0. Thats representing your ability to prevent a killng blow. A single sword strike still kills people. The one that deals 4 hp and takes you below 0 is not the same strike as the one that dealt 4 hp and left you with 30. As you progress in levels your ability to resist damage becomes greater - but you physical ability to handle a sword in you chest. What Im saying is that I dont care what book says what - if 4 hp mean different things depending on your level - then HP represents your ability to do something - namely avoid the impact of damage. The understaning cannot be more clear to me. A sword can still kill an epic character - you just have to wear them down first - wear them out of hit points and ability to mitigate you successful attacks with an active abilty to resist damage we call hp. Most metagames seperate damage like the vp/wp with physical and non-physical damage. Those systems also tend to avoid a leveled increase of hp - because they are attempting to more accurtetly simulate real life physical integrity and damage potential. D&D HP is not one of those systems - D&D HP represents your action hero power potential, thats all. Ability score damage and specific traits that blind represent actual unmitigated physical mangleling.
shiffd 06-22-05, 03:01 AM	I base my presumptions about hit point in the way that they manifest in the game. You do not suffer any penalties untill 0. Thats representing your ability to prevent a killng blow. A single sword strike still kills people. The one that deals 4 hp and takes you below 0 is not the same strike as the one that dealt 4 hp and left you with 30. As you progress in levels your ability to resist damage becomes greater - but you physical ability to handle a sword in you chest. What Im saying is that I dont care what book says what - if 4 hp mean different things depending on your level - then HP represents your ability to do something - namely avoid the impact of damage. The understaning cannot be more clear to me. A sword can still kill an epic character - you just have to wear them down first - wear them out of hit points and ability to mitigate you successful attacks with an active abilty to resist damage we call hp. Most metagames seperate damage like the vp/wp with physical and non-physical damage. Those systems also tend to avoid a leveled increase of hp - because they are attempting to more accurtetly simulate real life physical integrity and damage potential. D&D HP is not one of those systems - D&D HP represents your action hero power potential, thats all. Ability score damage and specific traits that blind represent actual unmitigated physical mangleling. OK so you don't care what the book says, thats not a bad thing. Now realize that people are not misunderstanding if they are talking about what the book says. I wonder if you even know what it says. Also realize that if they have an idea that is different than yours they are not misunderstanding anything either. YOur idea/opinion whatever is valid, hell I even like it and prefer it to what hte book says BUT someone can't misunderstand something that they've never heard of before and thus only exists in your head (well if they read your post than they know what you are talking about). Anyway once people have read what you think HP is/or you've explained it to them nobody will misunderstand what you think it is/use it as.
Robbo 06-22-05, 04:05 AM	Sorry shiffd, but you really are talking from a position of ignorance. The core D&D rule books are completely explicit when it comes to HP - they make it perfectly clear that HP represent combat ability, luck, divine favour, etc, not just physical ability to absorb damage. As has been mentioned - this is obvious when you consider that HP increase with level. This in itself is fine, I think, but it then causes inconsistences with things like fireballs crisping a commoner but that naked 20th level fighter just has his eyebrows singed. Hence why people are trying to find alternative mechanisms that are believable while being straightforward to implement. Personally, I see a problem with the approach of combining class defence bonus with Vitality Points / Wound Points as class defence is basically doing the same thing as VP - that is making you harder to do damage to... has anyone tried this?
shiffd 06-22-05, 07:36 AM	Sorry shiffd, but you really are talking from a position of ignorance. The core D&D rule books are completely explicit when it comes to HP - they make it perfectly clear that HP represent combat ability, luck, divine favour, etc, not just physical ability to absorb damage. As has been mentioned - this is obvious when you consider that HP increase with level. This in itself is fine, I think, but it then causes inconsistences with things like fireballs crisping a commoner but that naked 20th level fighter just has his eyebrows singed. Hence why people are trying to find alternative mechanisms that are believable while being straightforward to implement. Personally, I see a problem with the approach of combining class defence bonus with Vitality Points / Wound Points as class defence is basically doing the same thing as VP - that is making you harder to do damage to... has anyone tried this? Ummm , i know that that is what it says. What it DOES NOT say is that you aren't hit untill the last 10 HP. It says that you are able to 'reduce' each wound via the things you mentioned "luck' 'skill' 'toughness' etc. It does not say that it isn't really a hit untill the last 10 ,that is an extrapolation many make, and I'm not saying I disagree with it. Like I've said many times, I prefer the idea of many misses followed by a good hit or two, so like I said I liked the idea she was presenting, it simply wasn't whats in the book. One of the old books clearly admitted that D&D wasn't realistic and didn't bother explaining. The original books and most HP systems don't touch on if its realistic or not and they do not explain it. They simply say something to the effect of "This is the stat that determines how much damage you can take". Apperently the new books say that HP represents blah blah blah and that its realistic that experienced people only die via a huge number of small wounds, except in rare cases where enough damage to kill a whale was delivered. IN THAT CASE then they get a little bigger wound that might kill them if they don't make a fortitude save. IF they fail, dead, if they make the save then the wound seems not to bother them much, not entill they get a few more of similar whale killing potential, or maybe a few dozen more only suitable to kill a man or cow. Anyway, to answer your Q about vitality points. Anyway at some point we are dealing with the idea of FATIGUE. Fatigue is a matter of training, excertion etc. experience helps a little but it is a side factor. By the time most fighters are experienced they are DECLINING in vitality/endurance due to age/old injuries. I've seen this happen in competitive martial arts. It doesn't mean the older more experienced guys are less effective fighters, it simply means they survive via finesse (skill) not endurance (which they have little of). IF you don't believe me go watch some competitve martial arts OR any sport for that matter. Pitchers go from starter to reliever. Not cuz they suck, but because they are better than they ever were but only for an inning or two. Anyway no luck on realism with a vitality point system. I have tried, but not in 3.5. I did it back in Skills and powers. They actually had a fatigue point system that I based it on along with some ideas from about 3 other sytems. Right now I'm thinking about a no-point system for recieving damage. Basically injuries are classified and then an injury is selected/rolled and it comes with conditions. IE "full body 3rd degree burn" would be in fire damage category from a fireball. It's conditions would include, temporary loss of all senses, extreme pain (-5 to every roll, on top of the penalties for being blind etc.), degrading condition (shock & other condition implemented over a series of rounds, death being the last condition for all degrading conditions, set at a given time frame from the injury depending upon how severe it was). Anyway Trying to think of a way to simplify it and make it useful. Also it would probly be best developed by a team of Roleplaying experienced Paramedics/ER doctors and Trauma surgeon. They could give realistic data on how quickly people die from X, Y and Z. How quickly they fall unconscious, lose sanity, senses, sight, hearing, balance etc. Anyway You could create a very realistc and descriptive system. Maybe base it on a trauma checklist or something of that nature. I'm sure the ER surgeons and paramedics already have a simplified list of isht hashed out. blunt trauma vs. laserations. FIre vs acid, cold etc. I'm sure there some simple informed system that could be hashed out.
BelZoradon 06-22-05, 11:33 AM	shea: again i would be more then willing to take a look at your system as i currently dont use the social system as is but also part of the idea was to not to have the players saying "i swing for his head" where the guy gets hit is my job not the players and more over i dont wanna have to remember all these differant penalties something has baced on where its been hit... thats just to much work. in addition... im glad you like the idea of big hits dealing more wounds Robbo: you will notice that my wound system has built in two fold class defence, hit die size matters as does fortitude save, a barbarian is far FAR less likely to take a wound then a wizard both cause he is "larger" and "heartier" then the wizard Shiffd: battle fatigue under my system is something else, the wound system us a purely physical indicator of health and the fact that repeated cuts get in the way of everything. as for the no point system of damage, that might be cool to see but sounds bulky. post it when you finish it, i wanna see what you come up with Everyone Else: this isnt really a debate about the nature of hit points, so why dont we start a thread that is, its interesting conversation
Me, Myself, & 101 others 06-23-05, 02:18 AM	I decided to do a full conversion of the Deadlands to D&D, and made some changes to it so it'd work better in the existing system. You can take a look at it here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=452116
the_one_true_shea 07-04-05, 01:39 AM	Ummm , i know that that is what it says. What it DOES NOT say is that you aren't hit untill the last 10 HP. And neither did I, myself and the books state that (for impact I will bother to c/p the srd (www.wizards.com/d20)): Damage doesn’t slow you down until your current hit points reach 0 or lower. thats what Im complaining about, thats what I think is unrealistic, and you're texting with a man who underwent training as an emt specifically for this purpose ( ... a better damage analysis - hey! "so tell" Gygax went to satanic rituals to research magic and ceremonies). HP is the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one. Me? I will push that line so far as to say that the sword swing didnt even touch you, but there is no violation of concept to claim a scratch or "ping" (as many of my players have refered to 1 and 2 point damage results when they have some 50+ HP to burn). I must now really apologize. I'm not gonna post my varient.. here .. at all. There is a setting search going on over in Green Ronin land.. but the qualifications are "two published works" and my Blood, Sweat, and Tears:Harsh Reality suffering rules supplement is my most completed work to date (well over 6,000 words at this point btw). In regards to your OP BelZordan: Does the wound component I put up solve anything or does it just complicate matters? The "target what you will" idea has worked well for me in the past (as I have been developing BST) and I think it allows for highly variable damage ramifications when combined with normal HP. The only thing that I con't come to a decision on is ... what to set the wound threshold to. I've used con mod, con score, str and con mod, each different save bonus, and a couple of more freaky number pulls from the character sheet data set, but none of them seem.. right.. you know?
BelZoradon 07-04-05, 12:14 PM	shea: while interesting i really dont think its does anything but make me ajudicate more
Jackhammer John 07-05-05, 05:36 AM	Butting in here. DnD in default mode is heroic combat. It is meant not only to be abstract to allow faster play, but provides a heroic combat system to allow your players to survive in battles that otherwise in real life would cut them down in 10 seconds. Of course, you might want to add in real life features, but I found that it makes for a different game. If I want something closer to real life, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay or Deadlands offers a great lethal combat system.
BelZoradon 07-05-05, 11:52 AM	this system is plenty heroic, ive seen an enraged barbarian cut down 6 orcs at once (made him switch dice after 2 crits in a row and he kept criting... it was sickening) due to the changed mass damage rule, and have seen wizards shrug off blows by giants due to the favor of the gods (and amazingly good fort rolls) but on the other hand ive seen fighters over come by HOARDS of goblins as they slowly picked him appart one wound at a time but still made enough time for the rest of his party to escape (he was taking a -20 penalty to attack when he finnally fell and a -17 to his fort saves to avoid wounds) now if that isnt heroic but still more realistic then the bace rules... idk what is
the_one_true_shea 07-05-05, 06:42 PM	Butting in here. DnD in default mode is heroic combat. Am I the only one who thinks that heros get hurt? Have you seen krull? Ergo the magnificant is a hero and he was bleeding through the entire last scene! More Modern - Die hard? The first one with the cut feet thing? (really any willis movie seems to end with him bloody) I want fast, I want easy, I want my character to remember he got hurt. Thats the idea behind the wounds, no complicated table checks: 1. you get hit for more than your threshold 2. you suffer a -2 penalty to a specified check 3. provide examples - * blood in your eyes - 2 to spot * rung your bell - 2 to listen * bloody knuckles - 2 to grab checks * stubbed toe (really bad stubbed toe) - 2 balance note: wounds must be treated by Heal DC 10+damage to negate the penalty (and not the damage lost either!) these just keep piling on like gp, players will offer up options. I didnt think they would. I thought they would always try to minize, but no - one guy asked if he doubled threshold could he.. yeah could he loose the limb. I said "double will double the penalty, triple, triple will remove a limb"
BelZoradon 07-05-05, 08:11 PM	to much work remember what has penalties and desiding what gets penalties... my way is more stream lined... and they most assuridly get hurt... look at the poor guy and the hoard of goblins
the_one_true_shea 07-06-05, 08:10 PM	this system is plenty heroic, (he was taking a -20 penalty to attack when he finnally fell and a -17 to his fort saves to avoid wounds) now if that isnt heroic but still more realistic then the bace rules... idk what is actually it does sound heroic to me, I am supprised that the -20 to attack flew.. seems more than I would think most players would do. what level was the character in question? Now, its UA that refrences the fort save? Or is that Star Wars? Questions: VP = HP (in quantity) WP = Con .. Right? so how can you take a number of wounds equal to your Con (or modifier) when you only have a number of wounds equal to your Con? Are you saying that the number of (strikes) or (VP?) you take before you suffer? are you using HP? basically Mr. zordan, can I call ya Bel?, how are you tracking wounds here, cause when I was looking over what you had said I got confused.. VP/WP? or HP + Fort save + Wounds? If its the second, my only complaint would be the lack of differentiation between one wound and another.. some sort of "stubbed toe" vs "concussion" would be nice in my op, but! the simplicity of a general failure ... erm, am I missing something?
BelZoradon 07-07-05, 12:32 AM	first off, Bel is simply a title. if you feel the need to shorten zoradon works nicely all players in the test agreed to go till the end come what may and after 17 wounds and exaustion the -20 isnt much the exact system i modified as i mentioned in my very first post is on page 176 of unearth arcana under my system there are NO HITPOINTS at all... nor are their vitality points persay there is a holding pool for extranious damage that i liked to VP at one point for ease of referance... perhaps a mistake WP do NOT equil constitution but the number of wounds a creature has taken (most common way to keep track as been simple tally marks) there is no limit on the number of wounds you can have... as long as you dont fail the fort save by more then 5 but you are right... there is no way to tell one wound from another... they all effect you in the same way... cumulative -1 penalty on ALL rolls did i cover everything?
Keoki 07-07-05, 01:45 AM	Funny, I thought the biggest problem with the wound point rules was the fact that it's almost impossible to knock a character out without killing him. I devised a way to remedy this, as well as some other things, here: http://dndcounters.tripod.com/vitality.htm
BelZoradon 07-07-05, 11:47 AM	now if you had taken time to read the thread you would notice that under these modified rules its really not very hard to knock someone out... subdual wounds are tracked seperately and just like a lethal wound if you fail the save by 5 or more you go unconsious (or with lethal damage you go dying) and the penalties for both types of wounds stack but you dont get to ignore any of the subdual penalties and in addition anytime a wound deals less then a forth of a creatures wound threshold that damage is set aside until such time that the cumulated damage is equal to or greater then that one forth mark at which point it becomes a subdual wound and the creature saves vs the number of subdual wounds it has or losses consiousness
the_one_true_shea 07-08-05, 01:44 PM	now if you had taken time to read the thread you would notice that ... (same to you shea!) OH! Right.. actually. Really cool. You only tracking the penalties. So its like flip mode, going the way of THAC0, upside down wise. Count your HP (er wP) UP not down. I was perusing the idea, at one time, of "counting up" HP. You start with 0. Then characters "deal" damage. And you "take" damage. And when you "have" a certain damage total you suffer XXX. Language sycronicity.. eh, lemme try to PPBSRD, if I may ... Wound Threshold: The Character's Total HD multiplied by their current class HD Increment. Exp. a 10th level Fighter has a wound threshold of 100. Total Wound Penalty (TWP): Equal to the total number of wounds you have taken. Damage Save: Every time you take damage you make a Fortitude save, with a Base DC of 15 + the damage dealt. You apply your TWP to this save. Effective Wound Penalty (EWP): Equal to your TWP - your Con Score. You appy your EWP as a penalty to all checks. Dying: Failing your damage save by less than 10 will give you one or more wounds. Failing your damage save by 10 or more you are dying. Massive Wounds: Divide the damage dealt by your wound theshold. The result (rounded down to a minimum of 1) is the number of wounds you must save against. Each of the damage saves uses the complete damage total of the strike, not a fraction of the damage total. Exp. A 10th level human fighter takes 256 damage. That damage is divided by the wound threshold (100) for a result of 2.56 (rounded down to 2). The fighter makes two damage saves vs DC 271. hmm.. that algorythm.. right? (save DC 15+<damage dealt>/5)*<# of wounds> should tha example be - A 10th level human fighter takes 256 damage. The fighter makes 2 saves: DC 66. :confused: - I guess I am still confused. Zory? What do you think?
BelZoradon 07-08-05, 05:52 PM	ok your right... i was kinda annoyed... sorry if it was that blatent, please except my appoligies you seem to have the basic idea down right... you count damage up till you fail a save by 10 or more then you become dying what you have marked as massave wounds should be marked cumulative wounds... and massave wounds is when number of wounds exceads the wound threshold eq. example 10th level human fighter has to save vs 100 wounds at once... that might need some revision because as you can see once you get to higher levels thats not blooming likelly mind if i steal your SRDing?