Wounds & Vitality vs. Blood Drain [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wounds & Vitality vs. Blood Drain [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Empty Fingers
04-02-04, 12:56 PM I was thinking about having blood draining effects, that drain con, drain wound points instead. A vampire can't get much blood out of a pixie, but a giant or dragon has a huge amount of blood.

What do any of you think about that?
bradjob
04-05-04, 07:11 PM Since WPs are based on the creatures Con score, is there really a difference in what you propose. You're actually making Blood Drain a little weaker.
Empty Fingers
04-05-04, 07:44 PM But shouldn't blood drain be more difficult against larger creatures? It becomes a lot stronger against smaller creatures. One round of blood sucking kills a cat.

I don't think it hurts it that much. Grappling with creatures that are bigger is difficult. Smaller creatures is easy.
Craith
04-06-04, 06:28 AM I already rule IMC that any blood loss (wounding, vampires, stirges) doesn't do Con damage but wound damage instead.

Craith
Darth_Singe
04-06-04, 02:52 PM When you drain Con, Wound Points and Vitality Points are reduced accordingly, so if you leave it the way it is, Blood Drain and Wounding become even more deadlier in this Variant.

Here is an idea I might try out in my game:

Wounding: Any time you score a critical hit with a Wounding weapon, the target that was hit also loses 1 point of Con.

I think that Blood Drain should stay the way it is (Drain Con), because every Vampire flick I've ever seen, the person drained is usually pretty weak after (if they survive). also, you don't see Vampires sucking on Humans for ungodly amounts of time either, it's usually under a minute (about 15 to 30 seconds before they snuffit, which relates to about 2 to 6 rounds of combat).
Empty Fingers
04-06-04, 03:18 PM Small, Medium, and Large creatures, such as the players, have the the same wound points as Constitution. Switching Blood drain to wound points doesn't have much of an effect in most cases. The big differences are that blood drain would cause fatigue, as it probably should, really small creatures have more to worry about from the drain, and really large creatures have less to worry about from blood drain.

Honestly, should a vampire have a decent chance at draining a huge dragon of blood in under 2 minutes, even with an unbelievable grapple check?
Darth_Singe
04-06-04, 09:23 PM Well, if she is a Vampire than you gotta admit, she probably sucks really hard and really fast ;), not to mention nowhere that I know of does it say how much blood a dragon has. (Though i do recall from reading my Dragonlance novels of some terrific bloody battle between dragons.)
Empty Fingers
04-07-04, 12:09 PM :D

I'm just say that in nature larger creatures have more blood. :) I'm not a biologist, but I expect even a sickly whale, elephant, or Dragon to have a lot more then twice the blood of an average human.

But, I could be wrong. I've been wrong before.
Darth_Singe
04-07-04, 01:09 PM After reading up on my VP/WP system, and my MMI and II, I came to the same conclusion for Blood Drain. It should affect WP's and not Con, since once you lose WP's you get fatigued anyway. :)

Also, if you read any Anne Rice (The Vampire Lestat, etc.) it describes blood draining as being very pleasurable for the person being drained; also on Angel there are some humans that gett off on it (See Also Forever Knight, the human Drones at the Raven, Lacroix's Nightclub; god i miss that show!)

So maybe people being blood drained should make a Will or Fort save against the pleasure affects, with possible addiciton. (makes for an interesting Flaw doesn't it?)

Anyways, one thing I DON't use is the if you're at 0 WP's you're suddenly immortal if you have a High Fort save rule. WP's can go below 0 just like in Star Wars D20, and if you hit -10 wp's you snuff it. Just like Normal HP rules.

ANy more thoughts on how Wounding weapons should work?
Nifft
04-08-04, 01:06 PM Originally posted by Darth_Singe
Any more thoughts on how Wounding weapons should work?

I'm thinking of doing a VP/WP campaign, and I've decided that Wounding weapons will inflict 1 extra WP on every normal hit, and 2 extra WP on a critical hit. This will increase the value of the Wounding property to +3, and I'll only allow it on Piercing weapons (picks, spears, morningstars, rapiers, daggers, etc.).

-- N
MattMart
04-08-04, 01:48 PM Keen(+1 bonus) = +1 threat range
Wounding(+2 bonus) = +2 threat range
Fatal(+3 bonus) = +3 threat range
Darth_Singe
04-08-04, 05:47 PM Originally posted by Nifft
I'm thinking of doing a VP/WP campaign, and I've decided that Wounding weapons will inflict 1 extra WP on every normal hit, and 2 extra WP on a critical hit. This will increase the value of the Wounding property to +3, and I'll only allow it on Piercing weapons (picks, spears, morningstars, rapiers, daggers, etc.).

-- N

The problem I see with this is the basic definition of a VP/WP system.

Star Wars describebes Vitality points almost like Dodge points; ie you just barely missed the attack, and it tired you out. It's superficial damage like scratches, light bruises, etc, not cuts.

Wound Points are what matters, those keep you alive.

Hit Points are the same as Wound Points, in that you get hit they go down and when they reach 0 and below you are dead or dying. Which to me is unrealistic because there's NO WAY a human can take 30 hits from arrows and walk around with flech wounds (Barring no magic of course, say he's a high level fighter.)

In the system you propose, you are saying that a wounding weapon autmoatically hits the character every time a successful attack roll is made. (ASIDE: IMHO UA didn't describe VP's clearly enough; check out Star Wars or even the boards for a better description.)

If you use it the Way I described it (Each time a Crit is scored, or you deal WP damage with the weapon, Con is reduced accordingly), the weapon is dealing more damage by creating deeper cuts, ie 'wounding' the target more effectively. One or two WP hits with a Wounding weapon and not only is the opponent near death from lack of WP's, his Con is reduced, reducing hit total WP's AND his VP's. He is also Fatigued.

Just picture the Battle of the Mounds between Rexor the High Priest of Set (Second only to Thulsa Doom himself) and Conan in the Conan The Barbarian movie; Conan gets one good crit in there, and then another, and Rexor is basically Julienned! :)

Anyway, I recommend Justice League brand Hot Chocolate to everyone reading this, it's good and wholesome and nutricious and there's nothing like having Wonder Woman marshmellows melting in your hot cub..ahhh..this is the life.... :)

p.s.

still looking for more Wounding ideas!
Nifft
04-08-04, 07:39 PM Darth_Singe, you make a very good point.

I now agree that Wounding should do Con damage, and should only do Con damage on a critical hit. I'm thinking two points of Con damage per Crit.

However, I think that it should somehow better penetrate DR (especially armor-based DR). To that effect, perhaps allow a Wounding weapon to bypass DR/- in some way? (Perhaps: "When a Wounding weapon's damage would be reduced to 0 by DR/-, it instead deals 1 point of damage.")

-- N
Darth_Singe
04-08-04, 10:11 PM N,
In the UA version of the VP/WP system, when you score a critical hit, it automatically bypasses all DR. Which is strange, because in Star Wars DR only functions when you take Wound Damage.

As for Wounding doing 2 Con Dmg, unless you want it to be really deadly combat, I wouldn;t recommmend this. 1st of all, when you score a crit the target takes wound damage anyway, IF he survives that, he then take Con loss, which means he loses MORE VP's and an additional WP.

However, given the system I propse, Wounding is now only really effective when a Critical Hit is rolled. So lets define Wounding.

I believe that the basic principle of a Wounding weapon is to weaken your opponent with each hit; in standard HP d&d, each hit reduces a targets Con by 1 point, which means in 2 hits the target loses 1 HP per Hit Die, which is a significant amount of damage.

In this system, Wounding should either add a +1 bonus to the threat range of the weapon in additional to Con dmg on a Crit, or add say 1d8 point of vitality dmg (only) on a successful attack.
Nifft
04-08-04, 10:40 PM Okay, since WP represents health -- what Con represents in a regular game -- how about if the Wounding quality deals +2 Str or Dex damage on a critical hit? It's still ability damage, but not trampling on the VP/WP mechanics.

As a really nasty option, have it deal 2 points of Dex and 2 points of Str on a critical hit.

Or, have it simply apply a cumulative -1 penalty to AC and attack rolls, which requires a DC 20 Heal check to remove (separate check for each point of penalty).

-- N
electrosis
04-09-04, 09:38 AM If your playing with the optional VP/WP rules does that not change how valuable a wounding weapon is. If that is so who is to determine the new value of a weapon with such a powerful effect. With such a dramatic change to the HP system as this perhaps in the best interest of keeping the game balanced just drop wounding weapons all together. With the large amount of items out there do we really need this one in a VP/WP campaign? If you just cant live without it. How about a normal hit with a wounding weapon does its normal damage to VP plus an additional amount of VP = (Character Level)/2 round up. On a critical have it do the initial crit damage to the WP and the wounding damage to the VP in the same way as above. In a long fight the VP loss is fairly similiar to the con loss in the HP system but not over powering as it would be in a VP/WP system. Just a thought. I haven't quite decided if i want to use a VP/WP system I love the idea but I'm not sure if its just gonna be to complicated.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Empty Fingers 04-02-04, 12:56 PM	I was thinking about having blood draining effects, that drain con, drain wound points instead. A vampire can't get much blood out of a pixie, but a giant or dragon has a huge amount of blood. What do any of you think about that?
bradjob 04-05-04, 07:11 PM	Since WPs are based on the creatures Con score, is there really a difference in what you propose. You're actually making Blood Drain a little weaker.
Empty Fingers 04-05-04, 07:44 PM	But shouldn't blood drain be more difficult against larger creatures? It becomes a lot stronger against smaller creatures. One round of blood sucking kills a cat. I don't think it hurts it that much. Grappling with creatures that are bigger is difficult. Smaller creatures is easy.
Craith 04-06-04, 06:28 AM	I already rule IMC that any blood loss (wounding, vampires, stirges) doesn't do Con damage but wound damage instead. Craith
Darth_Singe 04-06-04, 02:52 PM	When you drain Con, Wound Points and Vitality Points are reduced accordingly, so if you leave it the way it is, Blood Drain and Wounding become even more deadlier in this Variant. Here is an idea I might try out in my game: Wounding: Any time you score a critical hit with a Wounding weapon, the target that was hit also loses 1 point of Con. I think that Blood Drain should stay the way it is (Drain Con), because every Vampire flick I've ever seen, the person drained is usually pretty weak after (if they survive). also, you don't see Vampires sucking on Humans for ungodly amounts of time either, it's usually under a minute (about 15 to 30 seconds before they snuffit, which relates to about 2 to 6 rounds of combat).
Empty Fingers 04-06-04, 03:18 PM	Small, Medium, and Large creatures, such as the players, have the the same wound points as Constitution. Switching Blood drain to wound points doesn't have much of an effect in most cases. The big differences are that blood drain would cause fatigue, as it probably should, really small creatures have more to worry about from the drain, and really large creatures have less to worry about from blood drain. Honestly, should a vampire have a decent chance at draining a huge dragon of blood in under 2 minutes, even with an unbelievable grapple check?
Darth_Singe 04-06-04, 09:23 PM	Well, if she is a Vampire than you gotta admit, she probably sucks really hard and really fast ;), not to mention nowhere that I know of does it say how much blood a dragon has. (Though i do recall from reading my Dragonlance novels of some terrific bloody battle between dragons.)
Empty Fingers 04-07-04, 12:09 PM	:D I'm just say that in nature larger creatures have more blood. :) I'm not a biologist, but I expect even a sickly whale, elephant, or Dragon to have a lot more then twice the blood of an average human. But, I could be wrong. I've been wrong before.
Darth_Singe 04-07-04, 01:09 PM	After reading up on my VP/WP system, and my MMI and II, I came to the same conclusion for Blood Drain. It should affect WP's and not Con, since once you lose WP's you get fatigued anyway. :) Also, if you read any Anne Rice (The Vampire Lestat, etc.) it describes blood draining as being very pleasurable for the person being drained; also on Angel there are some humans that gett off on it (See Also Forever Knight, the human Drones at the Raven, Lacroix's Nightclub; god i miss that show!) So maybe people being blood drained should make a Will or Fort save against the pleasure affects, with possible addiciton. (makes for an interesting Flaw doesn't it?) Anyways, one thing I DON't use is the if you're at 0 WP's you're suddenly immortal if you have a High Fort save rule. WP's can go below 0 just like in Star Wars D20, and if you hit -10 wp's you snuff it. Just like Normal HP rules. ANy more thoughts on how Wounding weapons should work?
Nifft 04-08-04, 01:06 PM	Originally posted by Darth_Singe Any more thoughts on how Wounding weapons should work? I'm thinking of doing a VP/WP campaign, and I've decided that Wounding weapons will inflict 1 extra WP on every normal hit, and 2 extra WP on a critical hit. This will increase the value of the Wounding property to +3, and I'll only allow it on Piercing weapons (picks, spears, morningstars, rapiers, daggers, etc.). -- N
MattMart 04-08-04, 01:48 PM	Keen(+1 bonus) = +1 threat range Wounding(+2 bonus) = +2 threat range Fatal(+3 bonus) = +3 threat range
Darth_Singe 04-08-04, 05:47 PM	Originally posted by Nifft I'm thinking of doing a VP/WP campaign, and I've decided that Wounding weapons will inflict 1 extra WP on every normal hit, and 2 extra WP on a critical hit. This will increase the value of the Wounding property to +3, and I'll only allow it on Piercing weapons (picks, spears, morningstars, rapiers, daggers, etc.). -- N The problem I see with this is the basic definition of a VP/WP system. Star Wars describebes Vitality points almost like Dodge points; ie you just barely missed the attack, and it tired you out. It's superficial damage like scratches, light bruises, etc, not cuts. Wound Points are what matters, those keep you alive. Hit Points are the same as Wound Points, in that you get hit they go down and when they reach 0 and below you are dead or dying. Which to me is unrealistic because there's NO WAY a human can take 30 hits from arrows and walk around with flech wounds (Barring no magic of course, say he's a high level fighter.) In the system you propose, you are saying that a wounding weapon autmoatically hits the character every time a successful attack roll is made. (ASIDE: IMHO UA didn't describe VP's clearly enough; check out Star Wars or even the boards for a better description.) If you use it the Way I described it (Each time a Crit is scored, or you deal WP damage with the weapon, Con is reduced accordingly), the weapon is dealing more damage by creating deeper cuts, ie 'wounding' the target more effectively. One or two WP hits with a Wounding weapon and not only is the opponent near death from lack of WP's, his Con is reduced, reducing hit total WP's AND his VP's. He is also Fatigued. Just picture the Battle of the Mounds between Rexor the High Priest of Set (Second only to Thulsa Doom himself) and Conan in the Conan The Barbarian movie; Conan gets one good crit in there, and then another, and Rexor is basically Julienned! :) Anyway, I recommend Justice League brand Hot Chocolate to everyone reading this, it's good and wholesome and nutricious and there's nothing like having Wonder Woman marshmellows melting in your hot cub..ahhh..this is the life.... :) p.s. still looking for more Wounding ideas!
Nifft 04-08-04, 07:39 PM	Darth_Singe, you make a very good point. I now agree that Wounding should do Con damage, and should only do Con damage on a critical hit. I'm thinking two points of Con damage per Crit. However, I think that it should somehow better penetrate DR (especially armor-based DR). To that effect, perhaps allow a Wounding weapon to bypass DR/- in some way? (Perhaps: "When a Wounding weapon's damage would be reduced to 0 by DR/-, it instead deals 1 point of damage.") -- N
Darth_Singe 04-08-04, 10:11 PM	N, In the UA version of the VP/WP system, when you score a critical hit, it automatically bypasses all DR. Which is strange, because in Star Wars DR only functions when you take Wound Damage. As for Wounding doing 2 Con Dmg, unless you want it to be really deadly combat, I wouldn;t recommmend this. 1st of all, when you score a crit the target takes wound damage anyway, IF he survives that, he then take Con loss, which means he loses MORE VP's and an additional WP. However, given the system I propse, Wounding is now only really effective when a Critical Hit is rolled. So lets define Wounding. I believe that the basic principle of a Wounding weapon is to weaken your opponent with each hit; in standard HP d&d, each hit reduces a targets Con by 1 point, which means in 2 hits the target loses 1 HP per Hit Die, which is a significant amount of damage. In this system, Wounding should either add a +1 bonus to the threat range of the weapon in additional to Con dmg on a Crit, or add say 1d8 point of vitality dmg (only) on a successful attack.
Nifft 04-08-04, 10:40 PM	Okay, since WP represents health -- what Con represents in a regular game -- how about if the Wounding quality deals +2 Str or Dex damage on a critical hit? It's still ability damage, but not trampling on the VP/WP mechanics. As a really nasty option, have it deal 2 points of Dex and 2 points of Str on a critical hit. Or, have it simply apply a cumulative -1 penalty to AC and attack rolls, which requires a DC 20 Heal check to remove (separate check for each point of penalty). -- N
electrosis 04-09-04, 09:38 AM	If your playing with the optional VP/WP rules does that not change how valuable a wounding weapon is. If that is so who is to determine the new value of a weapon with such a powerful effect. With such a dramatic change to the HP system as this perhaps in the best interest of keeping the game balanced just drop wounding weapons all together. With the large amount of items out there do we really need this one in a VP/WP campaign? If you just cant live without it. How about a normal hit with a wounding weapon does its normal damage to VP plus an additional amount of VP = (Character Level)/2 round up. On a critical have it do the initial crit damage to the WP and the wounding damage to the VP in the same way as above. In a long fight the VP loss is fairly similiar to the con loss in the HP system but not over powering as it would be in a VP/WP system. Just a thought. I haven't quite decided if i want to use a VP/WP system I love the idea but I'm not sure if its just gonna be to complicated.