Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DoctorRomulus 03-26-04, 07:28 PM	Has anyone implemented the Wounds & Vitality rules for their game and if so how is it working out? The Doctor
NorthSaber 03-26-04, 09:10 PM	There's a thread here (http://tinyurl.com/35ev9) that discusses a test that revealed how the system doesn't quite work at high levels - I'm not quite convinced of that myself.
Lady Ishtar 03-26-04, 11:27 PM	from my expirience it works well in a setting where healing can be done only by resting, but critical hits become very deadly
Veton 03-26-04, 11:42 PM	Originally posted by NorthSaber There's a thread here (http://tinyurl.com/35ev9) that discusses a test that revealed how the system doesn't quite work at high levels - I'm not quite convinced of that myself. He's talking about the Vitality and Wound point system, not the Injury one. I myself am using it, but I haven't gotten to play a session with it just yet. I'll see how it turns out.
NorthSaber 03-27-04, 12:34 AM	Oh, sorry - my bad. I guess the terms "Injury", "Wounds" and "Vitality" are so nondescriptive I keep mixing them together.
MattMart 03-27-04, 03:10 PM	I have been using Wounds/Vitality in D&D ever since I saw them implemented in Star Wars... It works great! Heres a mod i use though as added buffer for those wussy mages... Wounds = Con + Level that way people arent as scared of having a con score below 14 now... w/v just adds an extra flavor that we all appriciate.... and we still rarely have clerics...after all VP heal so derned quick.... lvl/hr...spend a couple hours wondering through the woods and you are ready for some more....rather then going "we need to rest" all the time.... its faster paced and more intense.... and crits are so much more fun...
schbob 03-27-04, 08:43 PM	I have play test experience with the wounds/vitality set up they have in UA, like the above person said it's a faster pace, there's alot less downtime you can get alot more done. Other than a crit which without anytype of healing will take a long time to heal back. Less need for a divine caster over all, but they are always very helpful to relieve more down time even in this set up, ie you're disable from a crit and get to sit there for 2 hours while the rest of the group fight, or you're paralyzed/cursed/stunned/blinded etc etc for X amount of rounds and the divine caster walks up and says no you're not. It's an ok system so far, pretty much the way it is set up now. You are less likely to die because of how it's set up (unless you have a low con score and fort save), but more likely to get crited, and be disabled for a whole fight. Crits are alot more devistating in this type of system, gives melee characters alot more power than they had before, ie being able to drop someone in 1 hit, reguardless of how many actually hps they have if you do enough during the crit. Considering the fact that only increasing your con, or taking toughness is the only way to raise your wound points, and having the same wound lvls as you did at lvl 1, compared to lvl 20 isn't that balancing at all. I like the variation on wounds points that's stated above, giving the player a little more flexability, but I'd limit it more. This 1st one just gives additional wound points with no negatives: Either do every other character lvl they gain 1 additional wound point. Possibly more depending on their class or hd whichever you prefer to base it on, to keep the power level inscale with the classes that should be able to take hits, ie classes with d10-d12 hd per lvl would get 1 additional wound point per lvl, classes with d6-d8 hd per lvl would get 1 every 2nd lvl, and classes with d4 hd per lvl would get 1 every 3rd lvl or This 2nd one enables you to trade vitality points for wounds points as you level: Each time they lvl, they can choose to have 1 of their hps that would of went to vitality points instead added to wounds points, that way it's a 1 for 1 trade off and they aren't actually gaining extra hps just switching them around. It would be a reasonable trade of, the wound points heal slower, but you're less likely to die from a crit. Vitality points heal faster, but they won't protect you from a crit. Or, similar to the 1st variation I said, to keep the power scale more equal for the classes that should be able to deal better with taking hits. A d10-d12 hd class could trade up to 2 vitality points per lvl into wound points, a d6-d8 class could take up to 1 per lvl, a d4 class would be able to do 1 every other lvl /shrug, just ideas of a bored person ~
Vanigo 03-27-04, 09:42 PM	I haven't tried it, but it seems to me that it's not quite playable as written. It needs a few tweaks: Subdual damage doesn't exist - it's impossible to bludgeon someone unconcious without killing them. Conversely, a critical hit with a whip can kill someone. Why? I don't know. It's stupid. No attack, no matter how powerful, can kill you instantly. What happens if you get hit by a meteor, and take 18,000 damage? You're reduced to 0 wound points, and you have to make a DC 15 fort save. If you make it, you're disabled. If you fail, you're dying, but you're not dead yet. Now, any sane DM would rule that a direct meteor strike is an instant kill no matter what the rules say - but what about being trampled by a herd of elephants for 372 damage? What about being gored by an angry dragon for 69? Being crushed by a really big boulder for 981? Being critted by an enchanted ballista for 21? Where do you draw the line? As long as you keep making your fort saves, you can never die (except from a save-or-die or other instant death effect). As long as you keep making your stabilization saves (DC 15), you can never remain dying for more than a single round before you recover to disabled. Once you're dying, you're immune to all further damage but a CDG. In fact, as written, you're immune to all further damage once you're disabled - you're already at 0 WP, so you can't be brought down to 0 WP again, so you're never forced to make another fort save to avoid becoming dying. Even if you ignore that, though, it's still pretty easy to be eaten by the Tarrasque and keep making fort saves and survive indefinetly. (Well, not indefinetly. I mean, its digestive tract is only so long, after all...) You have to make a DC 15 fort save every round or become dying. By the time you're facing the Tarrasque, that's easy. What happens when you roll a natural 1? You're dying, and next round you can attempt a DC 15 fort save to become disabled again. The only way you'll ever die is from two consecutive natural 1s. Regeneration can actually make monsters weaker. Take the following scenario: A troll and a human with the same number of VP/WP are engulfed by a fireball and take 35 points of fire damage. The human takes 35 points of VP damage, but he's okay. The troll can't make a DC 35 fort save, and is brought to 0 WP, so he's either disabled or dying. Under normal rules, both would have taken 35 points of normal damage and been okay. Bonus healing from level (the +level in CLW's 1d8+level, for example) only affects WP, and is wasted if the target has only taken VP damage. It's an easy fix - just have extra WP healing go to VP - but they should have put it in the rules explicitly. High level characters can recover from being brought down to 1 WP overnight. It's not entirely clear why. Under HP rules, a high level character recovers more HP per day because each hit point represents less actual damage, but this is not the case with WP. High level characters just have a mutant healing factor or something. NPC classes don't get VP. Now, this is fine for commoners and experts, and maybe for adepts and nobles, but why should a warrior be incompetent in combat? I think that's everything that needs to be addressed, but there may well be things that I'm forgetting. Now, none of these issues are unresolvable. In fact, none of them are that difficult to resolve. However, any group planning to use VP/WP needs to resolve them, ideally before it comes up in game.
schbob 03-27-04, 10:17 PM	I totally agree there's alot of things that need to be fixed about it, what I hated was like you side above, if I do enough damage to kill someone outright in the normal system, ie -10 or below, you should be dead no save no nothing. But instead you're disabled if you make a save and I have to waste another action to try and finish you off. I found that this point gets rediculus when you have a creature with fast healing or regeneration, because no matter how much you do they are at 0, and pop back up next round. It's a full round action to coup de grace, even with improved coup de grace, it still take my standard action meaning I can't hit it again. So I do enough to kill it but instead it's a 0, I'd coup de grace it when I get the chance to, aka next around, but before I get to go again it's back up on it's feet kicking my butt. I don't care what lvl of fast healing or regeneration you have, you shouldn't be able to pop up next round unless I barely put you into the negatives (old system). It turned what use to be able to be done by 1 person (finishing off a downed opponent) into costing you extra actions and takes someone else cooperating to finish off the target, or hopeing during your 15minute ping pong match that your opponent eventually rolls a 1 on the save.
bjorntfh 03-27-04, 10:20 PM	I've modified the VP/Wound system moderately and found that it works rather well. My changes: VP function like HP, and you can take subdual damage against them. Subdual > VP = KO. Wounds function like your dying effect (-1 to -10 hp) but you're not unconscous if you make a DC 15 fort save. Instead you're disabled. This keeps PCs worried about taking wound damage, but removes the stupid infinite "dying/stable" trap. ANY wound damage (at all) fatigues he person instead of stunning him/her. More than half your wounds exhausts the character. Neither of these effects go away until you are healed. Wounds are cured as if they were 10 VP worth of damage each. They are cured first by spells, then VP are restored if there's any healing left over. You heal wounds naturally at a rate of 1/week of light activity, 2/week of bedrest. Regeneration restores wounds at the same rate of 10 VP/Wound (So regen 5 heals 1 wound every 2 rounds, or 5 VP every round.) This, along with armor as damage conversion has made combat dangerous, but monsters and characters all aren't afraid that every combat means they're going to lose a party member. It's seemed quite balanced so far (5 sessions down, many more to go!) and it makes damage a threat without making everyone try to just maxmize their crit chances and ignore damage. Also, I ruled that a 1 on a saving throw against a damaging spell does wound damage (to give spellcasters a chance. Otherwise they couldn't kill things with AoE spells, since you had to beat the opponent down slowly with no chance of a lucky casting roasting someone.)
MattMart 03-27-04, 11:29 PM	vitality is subdual damage though! basically it says that every hit is subdual unless it really gets you or you are exhausted.... so each duck and dodge removes some stamina....
Robbo 03-28-04, 10:37 AM	The mainstream hit point system has always implied that hit points were "vitality" ie defensive skill/luck/favour of the gods, up to the last blow that causes negative hit points. There were at least two areas of play I always felt unrealistic: (1) spells and energy damage ingeneral should surely have caused constitution damage rather than hit points, after all why would a high level character be better able to absorb a fireball in a confined space? (2) NPC classes - why would a commoner improve in combat ability at all with more commoner levels? Surely a commoner who gained enough combat experience to increase a level should have become a warrior? In my campaign the progression goes like - commoner level 1 + training or relevant experience = either commoner level 2, or level 1 of the relevant NPC class. For example a 1st level commoner is drafted into the army, and receives enough training to advance to 1st level warrior. After a long campaign, enough combat experience has been gained to advance to 2nd level warrior. He then returns to farming and eventually accumulates enough experience (through mundane life) to add another level, but this time becomes 2nd level warrior / 1st level commoner. But that last level of commoner should have no bearing on his ability to fight at all. To facilitate this approach you need some mechanism to allow people to gain experience for pursuing their "ordinary" careers. I shall perhaps post my rules on this later if anyone is interested. Hence contrary to the Unearthed Arcana rule I would allow warriors (and probably nobles) to have vitality points, but not other NPC classes.
Jack Daniel 03-28-04, 11:51 PM	I've come to a point where I'm pretty happy with the way VP/WP works. I added some bonus wound points, tweaked some rules here and there (so characters can go into negative wound points and thusly die; and into negative vitality points, and thusly be TKO'ed) and generally plugged some holes (regenerative creatures and fireballs, anyone?). It's outlined in chapter one on my campaign setting (http://www.geocities.com/ivan_327/resetting.htm) page.
Nagarhi 03-29-04, 12:23 AM	In my own campaign, I have the following house rules. The Toughness feats ... Toughness, Dwarf Toughness, Giant Toughness, and Dragon Toughness adds the the characters Wound hp's. So, a PC with 20 Constitution and the Toughness feat has 23 Wound hp's. Also, I still use the dying rules, as I am not a fan of the survivable meteor theory. However, a character with 20 Con is disabled to -5, is dying at -6 to -19, and dies at -20. Also, I allow the Toughness feats to stack with this, so with Toughness and 20 Con, his disabled to -8, is dying at -9 to -22, and dies at -23. So...Opinions?
Thelon Fairblade 03-29-04, 10:34 AM	I like the "trade VP for WP at level up" idea from schbob. I have failed saves from spells inflict 1 WP per spell level, in addition to normal damage. Succesful save = no bonus damage. So a 17 pt fireball will do either 9 damage (successful save), 17 VP and 3 WP (failed save), or 17 WP (critcally failed save [nat 1, plus a failed save to "confirm"]). On the flip side, Cure spells devote all their healing to VP, plus cure 1 WP per spell level. Cure Light Wounds from a level 5+ caster heals 1d8+5 VP, and 1 WP. I have the Fort 15 save to avoid death when at 0 WP modified by 1 DC per 2 damage you would have gone negative. Have 3 WP left, take an 8 WP hit... would have been at -5 = DC 17 Fort save. Any hit which drops you to -CON WP in a single blow kills (like a meteor) kills you dead, no questions no save. I like letting Warriors (NPC class) get VP.
Cathon 03-29-04, 05:42 PM	One of things I liked about the VP/WP system was the distance it gave between Warriors and Fighters at 1st Level, but it seemed wrong for me for Warriors to always be stuck with only base WP, so I decided that warriors gain VP, but starting at 2nd Level. Basically, a green recruit doesn't really know how to take care of themselves better than the average peasant, though they can use weapons and armor, but once they are a veteran, they start learning how to avoid damage. I consider the rules as written in UA as a bare outline, and that it is incomplete so that you can add on to it to fit it in your campaign rather than having to substract bits. I expect I'll need to tinker with the system more than I have already, but some of it should wait to be battle tested.
Mind Rogue 03-30-04, 10:03 PM	I think Cathon has a good suggestion, akin to what I would have made, although it could possibly apply to all NPC classes. Figure that the aristocrat learns how to dodge some blows during those fencing lessons they always take... I like Bjorn's idea of being wounded fatigue you. Once someone actually lands a solid blow on you, it hurts, on you are not focusing on much else. Once you are seriously wounded... well you might as well play dead. Adding one's character level to their wound points enhances their chances of survival from a critical hit, great for if you are one of those nervous DM's who fears you might accidentally kill a couple of them with a critical and wipe out the entire party. It also makes sense that a 20th level character can tough out almost any wound, although maybe not to quite that extent. On the death case, make the DC be 10 + damage dealt, just like CdG, increasing roundly as normal. If you are hit before you can stabilize, add the damage dealt to the DC. If you are hit after stabilizing, reset the DC to 10 + dmg. Try treating regeneration as fast healing that cannot heal certain types.
Robbo 03-31-04, 02:56 AM	Agreed with most of Thelon's good suggestions. Just a minor point on Cathon's reply - a warrior is not really the same as a commoner, there must be some training involved. Just putting a commoner into a military unit, giving him a spear, and a badge that says "Warrior First Class" does not make him a Warrior. I see vitality points as a measure of combat effectiveness, and a thoroughly drilled and trained spearman is going to be more effective, confident, and downright dangerous than a farmer with a scyth. By all means differentiate between a new recruit and one with 3 months training, but keep the raw recruit as a commoner with no VP until training or hard experience teach him otherwise. On energy spells, I'm still not convinced that causing 1 WP per spell level is enough, as this means that only the most sickly would fall from wound damage from a 5th level MU's fireball, which I thought was supposed to be more hazardous than normal fire. Also still has the basic problem from the old approach that the VP damage would lead to a mage being overcome by energy spells long before a fighter with the same constitution.
Thelon Fairblade 03-31-04, 09:25 AM	Remember, though, that the target is still taking the VP damage in addition to the 1 to 9 WP from the spell. *and*, because the target has taken WP damage, all the normal potential effects apply! Fatigue, stunning, whatever custom rules. Fighter, 100 VP / 16 WP, hit by Wizard 5's fireball, fails save. Minor loss of 17 VP... and 3 WP, immediately affected by the WP loss! I like the idea for fatigue, but that is partially reflected already by the loss of VP. Actually implementing the Fatigue rules starts penalizing attributes, make the battle go decidely downhill quickly. Have to think more about that...
bjorntfh 03-31-04, 10:17 AM	So far IMC the fatigue/exhaustion from wounds has worked VERY well. People are aware that if you take a serious wound, you're at a reduced effectiveness for the rest of teh battle, not a few seconds of stunning. Of course the fatigue doesn't apply to those who are immune to pain (raging barb anyone?) but once you come down from a rage (or from the drugs) normal effects apply.
Robbo 03-31-04, 10:07 PM	Following up Thelon's point... ...100VP with 16Co by my reconing represents an average 12th level fighter. The equivalent average 12th level mage (even if we assume same 16Co) will have 6 + ((2.5+2)*12) = 60VP and 16WP. So how many 5th level fireballs doing 17VP and 3WP of damage to take down the two characters? The WP damage will equally affect them both - taking them down in 6 fireballs. However the VP damage affects the mage worse, taking him down in just 4 blasts, whereas the fighter would still have 32VP at this point. When you consider that a mage is also less likely to have as high a constitution score as a fighter the situation worsens. At least they would both be fatigued and possibly stunned. What I am toying with, is increasing the WP damage from energy spells to 1WP per die of normal HP damage caused. i.e. that 5th level mage would do 5WP not 3WP with each fireball. Then both the 12th level characters would be disabled etc after just 4 blasts. That seems fair to me, but the flip side of that is the possibility of a 20th level mage doing 20WP at a time with certain spells. Perhaps not overpowered when you consider they could also cast a finger of death, wish, etc.
Thelon Fairblade 04-01-04, 09:02 AM	Remember, though, that mages are *supposed* to be disabled sooner than the fighters from raw damage spells. That's part of the whole wizard schtik. Doing 1 WP per die is a bad plan because not all spells do the same dice at the same level Scorching Ray, for example does 4 dice at 3rd level, and 12 dice at 11th. *and* as you already pointed out, 20 WP from a Wiz 20 is going to wipe out most threats that could *normally* handle a mere 20d6 attack... Spellcasters don't need *more* power.
Robbo 04-02-04, 03:02 AM	hmmm, don't know, not too worried about a 20th level mage having awsome powers. Perhaps I am being too literal (and have to be fair only had the Unearthed Arcana a couple of weeks so am still digesting it) but I can't help thinking that if a fireball is damaging enough to kill most ordinary men outright (ie 1st level commoners), and if it produces "real" energy effects (ie fire), then I can't really justify why ANY human character should have a much greater natural resistance to it. Remember that the players handbook describes the heat as being so intense that it can melt lead, gold, etc. Unless, ... , are you suggesting that the VP damage never gets converted to additional WP damage, even when VP=0? That perhaps could work for me, if I assume that the fireball is actually not a particularly potent source of fire, that all humans (with average Co) could expect to survive 3+ fireballs before becoming sunday roast. Then for the example 12th level characters the mage would reach 0VP 2 fireballs before the fighter, reflecting his lesser combat ability, but both would finally fall only after another 2 fireballs reduced their Co to 0. Post-rationalisation, don't you just love it?
Thelon Fairblade 04-02-04, 08:42 AM	Okay, a couple responses. First, Remember that the game at 20th still has to be fun for the warrior PCs. If the wizard is doing 10 WP with 3rd level spells (or worse, 12 WP with 2nd level Scorching Ray), the fighter is dead in two hits. Four, if you add level to WP, as one house rule suggests. Second, remember that the spells are based on a HP system. 35 damage is acceptable for a 3rd level spell from a 10th level caster because other 10th level foes are going to have 55 to 120+ hit points. If this idea bothers you, and you think a searing blast of arcane fire should cause real wounds, then your fireball should do 1d6 or 2d6 WP, period, bypassing VP. OF course, you'll need to change all damage-dealing spells this way, which is a lot of work. Third, remember that only PCs, Villains, and Monsters have VP. Joe commoner with 10 CON has 10 WP... your average beginner fireball kills him (17 damage), or badly scars and fries him (9 damage on a save).
Robbo 04-03-04, 12:21 PM	Just in case it seems as if I am arguing that anyone is WRONG, that is not my intention. After all I have been perfectly happy to consciously ignore the "reality" issues with DND for years, and I agree that the arguments of "game balance" and "it's fun" are just as valid as "it's realistic". It is just a game. Even so, I'm terrible at letting someone else have the last word, so here's my argument, tell me if my "logic" is wrong! - If as I suggested the VP damage aspect of an energy spell were never converted to WP, - perhaps because VP damage is a reflection of the amount of ability the target has in defending himself from PHYSICAL blows, - and as such is reduced by being scorched from a fireball, - but can in no way actually PREVENT being scorched because the save has not been made, and the flames are all around, and no amount of parrying and dodging can avoid them, so that WP damage occurs in addition to any VP damage, - then that 5th level fireball that does 17VP and 3WP damage to a character, or villain, or monster with VP, would actually just do the 3WP damage to Mr Commoner, so that it would take 4 such fireballs to bring him down. The whole point is that VP's are specific to combat and other situations where physical effort and skill can make a difference, whereas WP's are, under these optional rules, entirely about actual injury. To be consistent with that, energy spells and effects should be treated completely differently to the cut and thrust of physical combat. I agree that adapting all spells to fit in to this way of thinking is no mean feat, but I think that is the price to pay for the added "realism" in the change from HP to VP/WP. However, following this argument, it then seems to make sense to allow 1WP damage per die of HP damage, as otherwise a 10th level mage using Fireball will only do the same Co damage to Mr C as would a 5th level mage using the same spell, despite the original PHB rules clearly prescribing double the HP damage in such circumstances. You might consider that a character should not be as badly wounded as a commoner by such effects - but there are typically other factors to take into account: - a PC will likely have higher Co than a commoner - a PC will likely have better saves than a commoner - a PC will possibly have magic items or spells that help protect from energy spells that a commoner won't have access to - a PC might be wearing armour that could protect (like cover) from an energy blast - and finally, a PC would be better able to respond against the fireball caster, moving to attack directly or readying a bow against the next spell casting. It is entirely possible that the mage would be defeated without being able to successfully cast another spell. Over to you!
Lady Ishtar 04-03-04, 12:44 PM	how would you deal with inflict spells, and harm? seems like those would be a lot more powerful in the VP/WP system
Masterful_Norg 04-03-04, 03:50 PM	Raise their level and give them better names.
Lady Ishtar 04-03-04, 09:46 PM	Originally posted by Masterful_Norg Raise their level and give them better names. to what level? and the only suitable name i can think of is "die!" they become the ultimate combat spell: "light die!" (iflict light wounds) deals 5 WP at 5th caster level. while "critical die!" (inflict critical wounds) has a potential of dealing 10 WP on a succesful save! throw in arcane reach or something, quicken it and you can drop just about anything in no time
LordDwizard 04-03-04, 10:34 PM	What about someone who uses a keen rapier and also has improved crit skill, (threat range 11-20) they would be able to cause :b: MASSIVE:b: wound point damage.:b: :b: :b:
MattMart 04-03-04, 10:44 PM	Originally posted by LordDwizard What about someone who uses a keen rapier and also has improved crit skill, (threat range 11-20) they would be able to cause :b: MASSIVE:b: wound point damage.:b: :b: :b: unless you're running 3.5 where keen and imp crit dont stack....so its 15-20 either way....even if they did it would be 12-20 not 11-20....also...just cause you roll a 12 doesnt mean you're gunna hit with it....
Masterful_Norg 04-05-04, 01:06 AM	Use Bell Curve Rolls to improve the chance of life. Correct. You still have to confirm the crit.
Sitara 04-05-04, 01:55 AM	Ok, this system of vp/wp works excellently for Star Wars D20. It was by player feedback from that, of players likeing it so much better than the dull hp system, that wiz offered this varient. If they could go back, they would certainly make the change official in 3e. A few things in response to a rant a page back: Reduced to -10 WP you die! (at least in SW), no fort save, etc etc can save you. Thus, being hit for 9999pts damage will kill a char. If you take WP damage, it is only then that you make a fort save or be disabled. However, if you are reduced to -10 WP, the char dies, save or no save. However, the reason the system is not as good as it is in SW is that in SW armor grants damage redction. Each class gets a class bonus to defense (AC), thus there is little need for armor. In dnd however, the mornoic system of armor class (AC) rules that armor makes you harder to hit, instad of actually reducing damage, which makes more sense. In fact, it makes sense, while the concept of being harder to hit because you are in full plate is simply ridiculous.
The White Sorcerer 04-05-04, 02:07 AM	Originally posted by Sitara the concept of being harder to hit because you are in full plate is simply ridiculous. How so? If I were wearing a full plate armor people would definately have a harder time hitting me instead of my armor.
Masterful_Norg 04-05-04, 03:26 AM	The White Sorceror's Avatars scare me ;) As you may know Sitara, Unearthed Arcana includes those armor as dammage reduction rules as well though the armor still provides an armor class bonus because it does make it harder to hit the person. In my campaigns if a character can make an attack roll higher than the character's armor class and armor granted dammage reduction combined then the dammage reduction is ignored.
Thelon Fairblade 04-05-04, 09:53 AM	The Masterful_Norg's adjustment to the armor/DR rules is interesting. More calculations though. Robbo, now I understand your point. It is based on the assumption, though, that the VP damage from the spell does not convert to WP when all VP are gone (or non-existant). This assumption cannot be used, though, because then fireballs would do almost no damage to creatures such as undead. (Unless you want undead to be super-critters, that is.) I like someone else's previous post, too, about 1-HD lackeys... just because they have 12 CON doens't mean they shouldn't still die after 3 damage... Inflict Spells deal all damage to VP first, no "level bonus to WP"... plus the suggested 1 WP per spell level. But since Inflict spells have no save (can't resist the WP damge), *and* can critically hit, they are indeed powerful offensive spells. They aren't killer auto-death spells, though, and still require getting in close to someone.
Lady Ishtar 04-05-04, 12:38 PM	keep in mind that damage in Star Wars is scaled differently than in DnD. also aside of few dark side powers everything deals VP damage, unless its a crit or youre out of VP. additionally if energy based spells always deal a little WP damage, that will make spellcasters more powerful, and they dont need any more power
bradjob 04-05-04, 07:08 PM	In my game, I let the PC get a new Wound point every 4 levels and made toughness add 3 VP and 1 WP (and still, no one takes it). Critical hits become troublesome, as one can be enough to kill. I've had cheaters who rely on Crits in normal HP games, but I've watched them closer in the VP/WP game.
Sitara 04-05-04, 08:51 PM	Exactly, the wound/vp system is based specifically for SW, to give a more realistic/cinematic/gritty and MUCH more fun feel. It wont mesh with dnd all of a sudden, just thrown into AU as it is. There needs to be a complete system overhaul...hopefully by the next edition, if there ever is one, I am pretty sure they will do away with AC and put in vp/wp, AND a class bonus to defence while armor will provide a DR only. White Sorceror: Please do not get cute. If you have nothing constructive to add to the conversation, then crawl back under the mound of dung you came from. :D Take your opinions with you as well, they are not wanted here. ;)
Urbannen 04-06-04, 03:05 PM	Originally posted by bradjob Critical hits become troublesome, as one can be enough to kill. I've had cheaters who rely on Crits in normal HP games, but I've watched them closer in the VP/WP game. I've heard a variant that addresses that problem: Apply critical hits to VP first, not WP. I haven't run this myself, but it seems like a good idea. Crits can still be devastating, and if the target of a critical hit doesn't have any VP left, he'll probably die.
Flitt 04-06-04, 05:53 PM	Vitality and Wound Points are awesome. A big note on critical hits! There is no longer such a thing as a modifier, people. Critical hits do not deal any additional damage. The big bonus is that all damage from a critical hit is dealt directly to Wounds. All weapons have a default threat range of 20 if the critical modifier used to be x2. Weapons that used to have a x3 modifier now have a threat range of 19-20. A x4 modifier becomes an 18-20, and so on. Treat the critical as a regular hit for determining how much damage you deal, and then apply it to the wound points instead of vitality. I remember being really confused by criticals back when I first started playing Star Wars, and it seemed like some of the same misconceptions I had were floating around the topic. I actually like how the book works magical healing for wound points and vitality points, except for one thing. When magical healing is applied to wound point damage, that damage is then converted over to vitality damage. That converted damage may not be healed magically. Storywise, this reflects how even though magecraft has repaired most of the damage done to you, the wound sapped your reserves of strength, leaving you just a bit slower. You're out of breath easier, or perhaps that area is sore. Until you get a real rest, you can't react quite as well as you normally would. I also think that if you do want to include VP and WP in your DnD game, you should allow armor to provide BOTH an armor bonus and damage reduction. Unlike in Star Wars, classes don't get AC bonuses from leveling, so they really need the extra armor. In Star Wars, Damage Reduction only applies to Wound Damage, not to vitality damage. But I actually like this way better, where damage reduction applies to both vitality and wound damage unless it is a critical hit. My solution to the 0 WP issue is quite simple. Change the DC of the fortitude save to become disabled instead of dieing to 15 +1 for each point of Wound Damage beyond that which took you down to 0. Or [15+(WP-Damage)] So, its easier to resist going unconscious from the first hit that takes you to 0, but if somebody then follows through with another hit, you are pretty much toast. Storywise, this makes sense. The frail, elven mage is easy to fell once you finally make it close enough to strike him. He manages to avoid a few of your blows, but you quickly cut deep into his flesh. He attempts to stay conscious, just a moment longer, just long enough to cast one final spell, but to no avail. Or maybe, by some feat of will, he does cast it. Either way, he's unconscious, and his life's blood is seeping out of him and into the ground. The breakdown: He has 20 VP and 8 WP. You hit twice, for 12 and 10 damage. The effort of avoiding avoid your first hit drains a good portion of your vitality. While he is able to soften the blow of the second, it completely drains the rest of his vitality and dips a bit into his wounds. The next hit for 10 damage obliterates his wounds. He fails the fort save DC 19 and bleeds to death. Or, he makes the fort save, by the luck of the die, and then casts one last spell before expiring. Much more flavorful than a similar situation with normal HP rules, where he would have been unconscious and dying after the second hit, unable to do anything else. Now, the stocky dwarven warrior is easy to get to, but he has the stamina to last in an upclose battle. He doesn't so much duck and weave as he absorbs the shock of the blows with his shield and armor, dodging out of the way of the worst blows at the last minute. Eventually, you wear him down. Tired out from the strenuous battle, he makes an error and you slice him open. He shakes his head: his vision is blurry from loss of blood. He once again swings his might axe, and you exchange blows several more times. But he has no reserves of energy left, and you cut him down. He falls to his knees, but no farther, and looks up at you with hate in his eyes. His jaw is clenched against the pain, but he attempts to stand back up. You strike him again, and the force sends him toppling backwards. Still he struggles to get back up. You stick him in the side, sending him back to the ground. Blood drips off of your sword as you wait, your chest heaving as you attempt to catch your breath. He does not get back up. You can hear as he struggles for each breath, a struggle that he is losing. You just stand there and watch. Almost a minute later, his body jerks once, and then he is still. Dead. The breakdown: He has 70 VP and 18 WP and is wearing armor that grants him damage reduction of 1/-. The two of you swing at each other again and again, until he is at 20 VP, when you get a critical hit in past his armor, and deal 12 points of wound damage. Your next hits deal 13, 11, and 9 damage. After the first two, he is at 4 wounds. The next one drops his wounds to 0. He makes the fort save DC 18 and is simply disabled. You strike again, for another 9 damage, but he makes the fort save DC 23, and is still only disabled. He doesn't try anything strenuous, just tries to get up. You kick him in the side, aggravating one of his previous wounds, for a total of 7 damage, and he fails the DC 21 fort save. He is now unconscious and dying. As the seconds pass, his body fights for life. The save DC to avoid dieing gets larger every round. Eventually, he fails that save, too, and passes on. Under normal DnD HP rules, he would have been unconscious and dying from the critical hit (He was at 20 VP which is equivalent to 20 HP; assuming a x2 modifier on the critical hit, that would have taken him into negative). Much more interesting this way, I think.
Robbo 04-06-04, 07:04 PM	Re Thelon's point, I must admit, writing these replies as I do either in the morning before rushing off to work or late at night, that undead would be an issue I had not really considered for my assumed approach to WP/VP. However my argument revolves around the interpretation of energy spells, and I can imagine that a fireball against a skeleton or zombie etc, should have less effect than against those creatures when they were alive. They will simply feel no pain, it doesn't matter to them that their surface is being roasted, whereas a living creature has shock and pain to contend with. A burn bothers a man, but fire on an an exposed bone hardly affects a skeleton or zombie. They need to be disabled by physically smashing their ability to walk / fight. Thus their challenge rating may need adjusting upwards a little, but they will still be just as susceptable to normal weapon damage, turning, and non-energy spells as before.
Tam 04-08-04, 03:52 AM	I am worried that the chance of inflicting wound do not scale with combat prowess, has someone a solution for that ? I had thought of something along the line: "In a n allout attack, two successive successfull hits inflict a wound."
Robbo 04-12-04, 08:12 PM	not really true - if you compare the chances of a low level fighter and a high level fighter causing a wound to a common target, say a first level commoner. The high level fighter will have multiple attacks available, and anything beyond the first hit will likely cause wound damage. If two high level fighters are fencing, I think it makes good common sense that they are less able to cause wounds to each other quickly, as each will have a great knowledge of how to parry/avoid the opponent's attacks. In any event, a critical hit has to be "confirmed", and that is proportional to combat ability, though not 1 to 1.
The White Sorcerer 04-12-04, 10:31 PM	Originally posted by Robbo not really true - if you compare the chances of a low level fighter and a high level fighter causing a wound to a common target, say a first level commoner. The high level fighter will have multiple attacks available, and anything beyond the first hit will likely cause wound damage. Actually, all successful attacks against the commoner would cause wound damage, since commoners (or NPC class people in general) don't have vitality points. But that's irrelevant, so carry on.
Tam 04-13-04, 09:36 AM	You are correct, of course, may be I should do the maths to estimate the exact progression. My point was, against the same target, a low level fighter should bring down the target quicker throu VP while a high level fighter would bring a target down quicker throu WP. I'm not sure it works that way currently; granted, the mechanic to obtain this could be difficult to come by and balance.