Wounds and Vitality system 1.0 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wounds and Vitality system 1.0 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Temrek
06-29-05, 07:45 PM Now I dont have uneartherd arcana but I have a pretty good idea how a wounds/vitality sytem works. I was thinking on proposing to my players that we use this system next campaign:

Note that I could not post it here due to wizard boards not supporting html so uploaded it here:
http://ostserver.mine.nu/~pierre/WoundsVitality.htm

suggestions? oppionions?

Also what to do about someone who uses a mounted charge.

If they have a lance they can deal triple damage and if they score a crit...
Should I just go with that?
Lawrence
06-29-05, 09:58 PM realistically a lance is is a near guarantee'd death sentence if it hits true (RL or even in game, hehe), so that's pretty good. However you have to crit for that to matter in game.

What you have there seems like a reasonable mix of things, it's pretty much the vitality system of course.

Have fun, experiment, don't eat too many shrooms.
JohnSnow
07-01-05, 05:54 PM I actually thought about using wounds/vitality in a few campaigns. Because I like the added "realism" of them in combat. Sometimes, an injury is just severe enough that it OUGHT to kill you, no matter how heroic you are. After all, a dagger to the eye is a dagger to the eye, a fall off a cliff is a fall off a cliff...and so forth.

However, I finally decided after monkeying around with it that I prefer the method of hit points + realistic massive damage save. Interestingly enough, I think Wizards does too, since that's what they went with for d20 Modern.

I personally find that hit points are nice and abstract. To provoke an MD save, you usually have to score a critical hit, so the flow is good. If the character fails his save, then:

"The arrow pierces you in the chest (critical hit - massive damage), but narrowly misses your heart (successful save). You're wounded (damage), but nothing vital was hit. Had it been an inch to the right, you know it would have been the end of you."

This is VERY cool, very heroic...and ridiculously easy to adjudicate in combat. It also requires a lot fewer rules mods. The only thing I'm not sure about is what level of Massive Damage Threshold and Fort Save ought to be necessary. I think an MDT of 20 + level x 2 is probably good. Probably setting a Fort save of 10 + 1/5 hps dealt is good. That keeps the save at about 15 for a low level character, makes it 20 for a 15th level character (who's been hit with a 50 point hit) and maxes out at 22 for a 20th level character (who has to take a 60 point hit). That seems pretty fair to me. The only change I MIGHT make is to lower the MDT.

That said, your houserules sound pretty interesting. Normally, the simple version of that system rules that you do damage direct to wounds on a critical hit. However, extra dice of damage (like Sneak Attack) inflict 1 hp/HD on a critical hit. Still bad, but not as bad as facing 5-10d6 damage direct to a pool that's at best 28 deep.

Just my thoughts.
lightman
07-01-05, 06:14 PM Now I dont have uneartherd arcana but I have a pretty good idea how a wounds/vitality sytem works. I was thinking on proposing to my players that we use this system next campaign:

Your hp = Vitality
Wounds = Con + Hit Die
No, only con, no +hit die

You lose vitality when taking damage, if you have 0 vitality left the damage goes to wounds instead. A critical hit deals both wound and vitality damage. A critical hit with a longsword from a str 10 character deals d8 vitality damage and d8 wounds damage.

Weapons that deal more the 2x damage on a critical deals extra vitality damge but no extra wound damage. So a greataxe would on a critical hit deal 2d12 vitality damage and 1d12 wound damage while a schythe would deal 6d4 (a scythe deals 2d4 damage, right?) vitality damage and 2d4 wound damage.

No, when you take a crit the damage goes to wound points, but it doesn't effect both wounds and vitilaty. Crits aren't multiplied in this system, they just take wound points away. In your first example, the victim would take only 1d12 wound damage

If you run out of wounds, you die. If you take even one point of wound damage you get penelties to some checks (I was thinking rolling on a table on what penelties you get, suggestions?).

No, if you run out of wound points you go uncouncous and need to make a save every round to avoid dying. When you take wound damage, you must make a fort save to avoid being knocked out. You take no other penalties

Effects that restore hp restore equal amounts of wounds and vitality.

If you have more nonlethal damage then vitality you are uncouncious.

If you fall you take standard falling damage but to WOUNDS. You can attempt a dc 6 reflex save to convert one d6 to vitality damage instead, for each additional 3 you beat the DC by you can convert an additional d6 to vitality damage.

If you roll a natural one on a reflex save against a trap or spell you need to roll another reflex save against the same DC. If you beat the dc its just a standard failure otherwise you have a critical failure and take normal damage to vitality as well as half damage to wounds.

1: not sure, but I think they only restore vp
2: not sure, but I don't think there are any non-lethal damage points with vp and wp
3 and 4: No, untrue

I don't have the book in front of me, but I'm pretty sure most of these are right (I know the first couple are)
Temrek
07-01-05, 06:42 PM However, I finally decided after monkeying around with it that I prefer the method of hit points + realistic massive damage save. Interestingly enough, I think Wizards does too, since that's what they went with for d20 Modern.

I see your point the problem is that if you set the damage thersold too high a peasant who scores a critical hit with a longsword will never call upon the fortsave, but if you set it too low it will happen to often.

That said, your houserules sound pretty interesting. Normally, the simple version of that system rules that you do damage direct to wounds on a critical hit. However, extra dice of damage (like Sneak Attack) inflict 1 hp/HD on a critical hit. Still bad, but not as bad as facing 5-10d6 damage direct to a pool that's at best 28 deep.
Just my thoughts.

Critical hits should be spectacular and with this system they still deal double damage :D

If a critical hit deal damage directly to wounds and nothing else a critical hit against a creature with all its vitiality points lost wont do anything.

Stuff...

I am not looking to copy the rules exactly mind you.
StevenO
07-01-05, 07:16 PM I don't know if it is still available in the Wizards Archive but Vitality/Wounds were one of the things given out in the Unearthed Arcana previews.

The system works about like you describe:
Vitality=normal hp, Wounds=CON
"Normal" damage reduces vitality then Wounds
Critical hits deal normal damage directly to wounds, convert x3 to 19-20 and similar.
Character who has lost Wound points is fatigued.
There are some more minor adjustments and ruling but that is mostly it.
JohnSnow
07-01-05, 07:22 PM Hey, if it works for ya, go for it.

I considered a wound/vitality system for D&D, kicked its tires, popped its hood, took it for a test drive and decided to leave it in the showroom. I used it for a while with Star Wars.

As for the comment on my MD saves...

I see your point the problem is that if you set the damage thersold too high a peasant who scores a critical hit with a longsword will never call upon the fortsave, but if you set it too low it will happen to often.

That is the general problem. Now, the question might be: should a peasant be able to score a critical hit against a very high level character? Against a level 6 character, sure. Maybe even against a 10th-level one (if he gets lucky). My proposed 20 + 2/level is an MDT of 40 for such a character, which is probably a little high. 10 + 2/level might be better...that's an MDT of 30. Which is a doable crit for a peasant with a longbow and better than average strength. Or a very strong peasant with a 2-handed sword (12 + 3 x 2 for a critical hit).

So the question is, should a 12th level character be immune to critical hits from a 1st level peasant with no appreciable combat skills? Probably.

Alternatively, you could experiment with various MDT and Save levels until you found a 'sweet spot" you liked. The balancing act isn't really forcing one vs. not...it's finding a sweet spot between the peasant doing it if he gets lucky and the dragon doing it with every shot. Keeping it somewhere around 20-30 hits that sweet spot, IMO. You could do Con + level...but that's pretty harsh on low-level PCs. Of course, Con + 2/level might work, and it rewards PCs with good Con scores. Keeping the save at 10 + 1/5 points of damage keeps this not so bad for weapon damage, although it's 5 points higher on a 50 point hit than the standard system.

And the MD system DEFINITELY preserves the spectacularity of critical hits that you like. Obviously, I'm just making a suggestion and didn't mean to derail the thread into a discussion of Massive Damage.
Temrek
07-01-05, 07:57 PM Added the injury tables I made. (How do I hide them under spoiler buttons? [-SPOILER-] Does not work!)

JohnShow, that might work. Ill see about using a similar system if this one removed fun from the game.
XrP-Leon The Second
07-03-05, 01:56 PM This sounds great, I might mix it in with my system.

Oh..
[ sblock ] is what you want.

<Edit> No problem
Temrek
07-03-05, 02:50 PM [ sblock ] is what you want.

Thank you.
Temrek
07-04-05, 05:11 PM Updated main post with the most refined incarnation of the system.
thought_riot
07-04-05, 05:45 PM Updated main post with the most refined incarnation of the system.

A quick glance over it, it looks nice. Ive been thinking of implementing Wounds/Vitality into my game. I'm probably gonna go over your version, and edit it using my own knowledge and Unearthed Arcana. I like your injury system though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Temrek 06-29-05, 07:45 PM	Now I dont have uneartherd arcana but I have a pretty good idea how a wounds/vitality sytem works. I was thinking on proposing to my players that we use this system next campaign: Note that I could not post it here due to wizard boards not supporting html so uploaded it here: http://ostserver.mine.nu/~pierre/WoundsVitality.htm suggestions? oppionions? Also what to do about someone who uses a mounted charge. If they have a lance they can deal triple damage and if they score a crit... Should I just go with that?
Lawrence 06-29-05, 09:58 PM	realistically a lance is is a near guarantee'd death sentence if it hits true (RL or even in game, hehe), so that's pretty good. However you have to crit for that to matter in game. What you have there seems like a reasonable mix of things, it's pretty much the vitality system of course. Have fun, experiment, don't eat too many shrooms.
JohnSnow 07-01-05, 05:54 PM	I actually thought about using wounds/vitality in a few campaigns. Because I like the added "realism" of them in combat. Sometimes, an injury is just severe enough that it OUGHT to kill you, no matter how heroic you are. After all, a dagger to the eye is a dagger to the eye, a fall off a cliff is a fall off a cliff...and so forth. However, I finally decided after monkeying around with it that I prefer the method of hit points + realistic massive damage save. Interestingly enough, I think Wizards does too, since that's what they went with for d20 Modern. I personally find that hit points are nice and abstract. To provoke an MD save, you usually have to score a critical hit, so the flow is good. If the character fails his save, then: "The arrow pierces you in the chest (critical hit - massive damage), but narrowly misses your heart (successful save). You're wounded (damage), but nothing vital was hit. Had it been an inch to the right, you know it would have been the end of you." This is VERY cool, very heroic...and ridiculously easy to adjudicate in combat. It also requires a lot fewer rules mods. The only thing I'm not sure about is what level of Massive Damage Threshold and Fort Save ought to be necessary. I think an MDT of 20 + level x 2 is probably good. Probably setting a Fort save of 10 + 1/5 hps dealt is good. That keeps the save at about 15 for a low level character, makes it 20 for a 15th level character (who's been hit with a 50 point hit) and maxes out at 22 for a 20th level character (who has to take a 60 point hit). That seems pretty fair to me. The only change I MIGHT make is to lower the MDT. That said, your houserules sound pretty interesting. Normally, the simple version of that system rules that you do damage direct to wounds on a critical hit. However, extra dice of damage (like Sneak Attack) inflict 1 hp/HD on a critical hit. Still bad, but not as bad as facing 5-10d6 damage direct to a pool that's at best 28 deep. Just my thoughts.
lightman 07-01-05, 06:14 PM	Now I dont have uneartherd arcana but I have a pretty good idea how a wounds/vitality sytem works. I was thinking on proposing to my players that we use this system next campaign: Your hp = Vitality Wounds = Con + Hit Die No, only con, no +hit die You lose vitality when taking damage, if you have 0 vitality left the damage goes to wounds instead. A critical hit deals both wound and vitality damage. A critical hit with a longsword from a str 10 character deals d8 vitality damage and d8 wounds damage. Weapons that deal more the 2x damage on a critical deals extra vitality damge but no extra wound damage. So a greataxe would on a critical hit deal 2d12 vitality damage and 1d12 wound damage while a schythe would deal 6d4 (a scythe deals 2d4 damage, right?) vitality damage and 2d4 wound damage. No, when you take a crit the damage goes to wound points, but it doesn't effect both wounds and vitilaty. Crits aren't multiplied in this system, they just take wound points away. In your first example, the victim would take only 1d12 wound damage If you run out of wounds, you die. If you take even one point of wound damage you get penelties to some checks (I was thinking rolling on a table on what penelties you get, suggestions?). No, if you run out of wound points you go uncouncous and need to make a save every round to avoid dying. When you take wound damage, you must make a fort save to avoid being knocked out. You take no other penalties Effects that restore hp restore equal amounts of wounds and vitality. If you have more nonlethal damage then vitality you are uncouncious. If you fall you take standard falling damage but to WOUNDS. You can attempt a dc 6 reflex save to convert one d6 to vitality damage instead, for each additional 3 you beat the DC by you can convert an additional d6 to vitality damage. If you roll a natural one on a reflex save against a trap or spell you need to roll another reflex save against the same DC. If you beat the dc its just a standard failure otherwise you have a critical failure and take normal damage to vitality as well as half damage to wounds. 1: not sure, but I think they only restore vp 2: not sure, but I don't think there are any non-lethal damage points with vp and wp 3 and 4: No, untrue I don't have the book in front of me, but I'm pretty sure most of these are right (I know the first couple are)
Temrek 07-01-05, 06:42 PM	However, I finally decided after monkeying around with it that I prefer the method of hit points + realistic massive damage save. Interestingly enough, I think Wizards does too, since that's what they went with for d20 Modern. I see your point the problem is that if you set the damage thersold too high a peasant who scores a critical hit with a longsword will never call upon the fortsave, but if you set it too low it will happen to often. That said, your houserules sound pretty interesting. Normally, the simple version of that system rules that you do damage direct to wounds on a critical hit. However, extra dice of damage (like Sneak Attack) inflict 1 hp/HD on a critical hit. Still bad, but not as bad as facing 5-10d6 damage direct to a pool that's at best 28 deep. Just my thoughts. Critical hits should be spectacular and with this system they still deal double damage :D If a critical hit deal damage directly to wounds and nothing else a critical hit against a creature with all its vitiality points lost wont do anything. Stuff... I am not looking to copy the rules exactly mind you.
StevenO 07-01-05, 07:16 PM	I don't know if it is still available in the Wizards Archive but Vitality/Wounds were one of the things given out in the Unearthed Arcana previews. The system works about like you describe: Vitality=normal hp, Wounds=CON "Normal" damage reduces vitality then Wounds Critical hits deal normal damage directly to wounds, convert x3 to 19-20 and similar. Character who has lost Wound points is fatigued. There are some more minor adjustments and ruling but that is mostly it.
JohnSnow 07-01-05, 07:22 PM	Hey, if it works for ya, go for it. I considered a wound/vitality system for D&D, kicked its tires, popped its hood, took it for a test drive and decided to leave it in the showroom. I used it for a while with Star Wars. As for the comment on my MD saves... I see your point the problem is that if you set the damage thersold too high a peasant who scores a critical hit with a longsword will never call upon the fortsave, but if you set it too low it will happen to often. That is the general problem. Now, the question might be: should a peasant be able to score a critical hit against a very high level character? Against a level 6 character, sure. Maybe even against a 10th-level one (if he gets lucky). My proposed 20 + 2/level is an MDT of 40 for such a character, which is probably a little high. 10 + 2/level might be better...that's an MDT of 30. Which is a doable crit for a peasant with a longbow and better than average strength. Or a very strong peasant with a 2-handed sword (12 + 3 x 2 for a critical hit). So the question is, should a 12th level character be immune to critical hits from a 1st level peasant with no appreciable combat skills? Probably. Alternatively, you could experiment with various MDT and Save levels until you found a 'sweet spot" you liked. The balancing act isn't really forcing one vs. not...it's finding a sweet spot between the peasant doing it if he gets lucky and the dragon doing it with every shot. Keeping it somewhere around 20-30 hits that sweet spot, IMO. You could do Con + level...but that's pretty harsh on low-level PCs. Of course, Con + 2/level might work, and it rewards PCs with good Con scores. Keeping the save at 10 + 1/5 points of damage keeps this not so bad for weapon damage, although it's 5 points higher on a 50 point hit than the standard system. And the MD system DEFINITELY preserves the spectacularity of critical hits that you like. Obviously, I'm just making a suggestion and didn't mean to derail the thread into a discussion of Massive Damage.
Temrek 07-01-05, 07:57 PM	Added the injury tables I made. (How do I hide them under spoiler buttons? [-SPOILER-] Does not work!) JohnShow, that might work. Ill see about using a similar system if this one removed fun from the game.
XrP-Leon The Second 07-03-05, 01:56 PM	This sounds great, I might mix it in with my system. Oh.. [ sblock ] is what you want. <Edit> No problem
Temrek 07-03-05, 02:50 PM	[ sblock ] is what you want. Thank you.
Temrek 07-04-05, 05:11 PM	Updated main post with the most refined incarnation of the system.
thought_riot 07-04-05, 05:45 PM	Updated main post with the most refined incarnation of the system. A quick glance over it, it looks nice. Ive been thinking of implementing Wounds/Vitality into my game. I'm probably gonna go over your version, and edit it using my own knowledge and Unearthed Arcana. I like your injury system though.