WP/VP & Armor DR variant [Archive] - Wizards Community

WP/VP & Armor DR variant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gold Katana
06-28-05, 12:30 PM We just started Dungeon's Age of Worms adventure path and here's the mechanics we are trying out:

VP/WP per UA, but with the fatigue and stunned bits left out.

Armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses do not apply to AC. They combine into "armor reduction." This works like damage reduction except that the total equals the die rolled to randomly determine damage reduction for each successful attack. The minimum amount is equal to how many of the three bonuses you have in your armor reduction.

Example: PC with armor bonus +5, shield bonus +1, and natural armor 0 would roll 1D6 when successfully attacked. The number rolled would come off the damage, with the minimum being 2 (he has two bonuses accounted for).

So far, this system is working very well for us. We wanted mechanics that added a little more realism to the game without needing a whole lot more book keeping - and that seems to be just what we've achieved.
srkingdavy
06-28-05, 01:44 PM interesting idea. where do you get 1d6 from?

Also, IIRC real-life armor has 2 purposes: to turn a hard blow into a glancing one, and a regular blow into an inconsequential one. (more astute readers will realize I'm paraphrasing unearthed arcana here)

Seems to me that armor should still add to AC, while also factoring into damage reduction.

I also think that weapon skill should add to AC... if you watch two people swordfighting, it's not "one person hits the other person who tries to dodge, then they switch". No! usually they parry, they block with their sword! Has anyone attempted to make more advanced/realistic swordfighting rules that take things such as parrying into effect?
J Milburn
06-28-05, 01:53 PM Parrying is talked about alot, and the feats like combat expertise cover it. I have a player who still insists on parrying, so they roll an attack roll, knocking that attack off next turn, and use that result as their armour class if it is any better. He uses it within reason, no whip parrying a great club or anything.

I see this- you roll a dice of the same size as your armour mod. Looks like a return of D7s...

You would have to use single dice- a D14 ov er a D8 + D6 Or D4 + D10

You can use most graphical calculators for making dice of any size, as we discovered in a boring maths lesson.

Are you only applying DR to wound points?
Gold Katana
06-28-05, 02:20 PM The D6 came from the total of the armor reduction, in the example = 6. If armor reduction equaled 8, you'd roll 1D8; if it equaled 9, you'd roll 1D10 (ignore 10).

AR comes into play for both WP and VP, EXCEPT with criticals, where it is bypassed (as per UA WP/VP rules).

We have the armor, na, and shield apply only to armor reduction, and not to AC, because we wanted a simple, easily calculable system. We didn't want to track two different numbers or split differences or anything like that. Now, your AC is your touch AC. Very easy for the players. I can quickly look at a stat block and figure out the BBEG's AC and armor reduction, without having to apply a graph or algebra to his standard AC.
Ranger REG
06-29-05, 10:46 PM VP/WP per UA, but with the fatigue and stunned bits left out.
Why? That's the beautiful part of VP/WP. If you're seriously wounded, then it should weaken the PC's performance. :uh-huh:
Gold Katana
06-30-05, 09:24 AM It started off complaints of taking 1wp result in the PC being fatigued. We were starting a brand new campaign, including drawing up the characters, so I dropped it without argument, so we could actually get some playing in that night. With that rule gone, the stunned bit naturally toppled next.

We've only had one game with these rules in place, so I expect some tweaking over the next couple. I agree that fatigue should be a factor but won't be implementing it after taking a single point of damage - probably we will agree to having it take place at half WP's.
Ranger REG
06-30-05, 09:10 PM It started off complaints of taking 1wp result in the PC being fatigued. We were starting a brand new campaign, including drawing up the characters, so I dropped it without argument, so we could actually get some playing in that night. With that rule gone, the stunned bit naturally toppled next.
Meh. Your group (heh!) is better off sticking with the safer Hit Points system.
Robbo
07-02-05, 12:31 PM I don't see why you should use armour's DR to reduce VP damage? After all, an attack that results in VP loss doesn't actually hit - otherwise WP would be affected. So loss of VP represents the effort expended to avoid the well targetted blow. It is the price the defender pays to avoid risking WP damage.

Bear in mind that it could be completely reasonable for someone in full plate armour (DR8) to not bother to defend himself against an opponent armed with a sap, as an extreme example. He could just let the attacks strike and be absorbed by the armour, not risking the loss of VP until he faces an opponent who can get through, or around, his DR.
XrP-Leon The Second
07-02-05, 07:00 PM I didn't read all of this, but in my post with the new house rules (found here: My post (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=457441) ), I have a parrying system, it's very simple. Check it out.
Gold Katana
07-03-05, 11:13 PM I don't see why you should use armour's DR to reduce VP damage? After all, an attack that results in VP loss doesn't actually hit - otherwise WP would be affected. It does hit, despite trying to dodge, deflect, etc. The armor acts as a buffer, absorbing damage which would wear down the defender's ability to do so.

someone in full plate armour (DR8) to not bother to defend himself against an opponent armed with a sap That's right. Stand still and accept flat footed AC, if that's your bag. A sap still might get through, though. You'd only be rolling 1D8 to reduce the damage, and that's ignored on a critical.
Robbo
07-05-05, 03:58 AM On the contrary, I don't think that a "hit" that only does VP damage necessarily hits at all! VP does not relate to the ability to "absorb" punishment, but to avoid it! It is another way of modelling class defence - i.e. as you increase in experience you are better able to avoid taking wounds in a fight for longer. Only an attack that causes WP damage actually hits you with enough force to worry about. The loss of VP surely represents the loss of "vitality" resulting from the extreme effort required to dodge, block, deflect the on-target blow?

Regarding a sap vs full plate armour - I would just not allow a critical in those circumstances. The guy with the sap had better try grappling, use a more appropriate weapon, or run!
BelZoradon
07-05-05, 12:33 PM ok maybe im wrong but a sap (if used proporly) against a guy in full play armor might not knock him out but it sure as hell is gonna ring his bell and if done repetedly you bet your damn skippy the guy in full plate isnt gonna be doing much sept ripping his helm off and lookin around for some painkiller

subdual damage shouldnt be subject to DR... maybe hmmm ~runs off to work on a DR becomes subdual damage rules~
Robbo
07-06-05, 04:28 AM Well, to be fair, I really have no idea what it feels like to wear a great helm or bascinet, and be hit on the head by a sap. But my guess is that the arming cap (the padded "hat" under the helm that helps absorb the force of blows) would dissipate much of the force. Although in medieval times it was usually of benefit to capture a fully armoured person rather than kill him, because if he could afford full plate his family could probably afford a ransom, I don't remember ever reading about any infantry arming themselves with saps - halberds, mauls, daggers, hammers, picks - yes, but not saps!

I do agree though that a heavy impact from a military hammer etc would have an effect - I would reduce the DR of plate by assigning a "penetration" value to each such weapon, in the same way that I would make it easier to do damage with a tapered sword than a broad sword against the joints and small openings in full armour. There is also the factor of whether a hammer like weapon might cause damage to the armour - there are accounts of visors being damaged on the battlefield, for example, so that they could not be lowered, thus exposing the face. A dented piece of armour may restrict movement or even compress the body inside to make breathing difficult etc (A Knight's Tale?) I guess the trick is to have an easy game system that results in potentially complex and varied effects.

I'm still improving my stab at it...one day I'll publish...one day...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gold Katana 06-28-05, 12:30 PM	We just started Dungeon's Age of Worms adventure path and here's the mechanics we are trying out: VP/WP per UA, but with the fatigue and stunned bits left out. Armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses do not apply to AC. They combine into "armor reduction." This works like damage reduction except that the total equals the die rolled to randomly determine damage reduction for each successful attack. The minimum amount is equal to how many of the three bonuses you have in your armor reduction. Example: PC with armor bonus +5, shield bonus +1, and natural armor 0 would roll 1D6 when successfully attacked. The number rolled would come off the damage, with the minimum being 2 (he has two bonuses accounted for). So far, this system is working very well for us. We wanted mechanics that added a little more realism to the game without needing a whole lot more book keeping - and that seems to be just what we've achieved.
srkingdavy 06-28-05, 01:44 PM	interesting idea. where do you get 1d6 from? Also, IIRC real-life armor has 2 purposes: to turn a hard blow into a glancing one, and a regular blow into an inconsequential one. (more astute readers will realize I'm paraphrasing unearthed arcana here) Seems to me that armor should still add to AC, while also factoring into damage reduction. I also think that weapon skill should add to AC... if you watch two people swordfighting, it's not "one person hits the other person who tries to dodge, then they switch". No! usually they parry, they block with their sword! Has anyone attempted to make more advanced/realistic swordfighting rules that take things such as parrying into effect?
J Milburn 06-28-05, 01:53 PM	Parrying is talked about alot, and the feats like combat expertise cover it. I have a player who still insists on parrying, so they roll an attack roll, knocking that attack off next turn, and use that result as their armour class if it is any better. He uses it within reason, no whip parrying a great club or anything. I see this- you roll a dice of the same size as your armour mod. Looks like a return of D7s... You would have to use single dice- a D14 ov er a D8 + D6 Or D4 + D10 You can use most graphical calculators for making dice of any size, as we discovered in a boring maths lesson. Are you only applying DR to wound points?
Gold Katana 06-28-05, 02:20 PM	The D6 came from the total of the armor reduction, in the example = 6. If armor reduction equaled 8, you'd roll 1D8; if it equaled 9, you'd roll 1D10 (ignore 10). AR comes into play for both WP and VP, EXCEPT with criticals, where it is bypassed (as per UA WP/VP rules). We have the armor, na, and shield apply only to armor reduction, and not to AC, because we wanted a simple, easily calculable system. We didn't want to track two different numbers or split differences or anything like that. Now, your AC is your touch AC. Very easy for the players. I can quickly look at a stat block and figure out the BBEG's AC and armor reduction, without having to apply a graph or algebra to his standard AC.
Ranger REG 06-29-05, 10:46 PM	VP/WP per UA, but with the fatigue and stunned bits left out. Why? That's the beautiful part of VP/WP. If you're seriously wounded, then it should weaken the PC's performance. :uh-huh:
Gold Katana 06-30-05, 09:24 AM	It started off complaints of taking 1wp result in the PC being fatigued. We were starting a brand new campaign, including drawing up the characters, so I dropped it without argument, so we could actually get some playing in that night. With that rule gone, the stunned bit naturally toppled next. We've only had one game with these rules in place, so I expect some tweaking over the next couple. I agree that fatigue should be a factor but won't be implementing it after taking a single point of damage - probably we will agree to having it take place at half WP's.
Ranger REG 06-30-05, 09:10 PM	It started off complaints of taking 1wp result in the PC being fatigued. We were starting a brand new campaign, including drawing up the characters, so I dropped it without argument, so we could actually get some playing in that night. With that rule gone, the stunned bit naturally toppled next. Meh. Your group (heh!) is better off sticking with the safer Hit Points system.
Robbo 07-02-05, 12:31 PM	I don't see why you should use armour's DR to reduce VP damage? After all, an attack that results in VP loss doesn't actually hit - otherwise WP would be affected. So loss of VP represents the effort expended to avoid the well targetted blow. It is the price the defender pays to avoid risking WP damage. Bear in mind that it could be completely reasonable for someone in full plate armour (DR8) to not bother to defend himself against an opponent armed with a sap, as an extreme example. He could just let the attacks strike and be absorbed by the armour, not risking the loss of VP until he faces an opponent who can get through, or around, his DR.
XrP-Leon The Second 07-02-05, 07:00 PM	I didn't read all of this, but in my post with the new house rules (found here: My post (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=457441) ), I have a parrying system, it's very simple. Check it out.
Gold Katana 07-03-05, 11:13 PM	I don't see why you should use armour's DR to reduce VP damage? After all, an attack that results in VP loss doesn't actually hit - otherwise WP would be affected. It does hit, despite trying to dodge, deflect, etc. The armor acts as a buffer, absorbing damage which would wear down the defender's ability to do so. someone in full plate armour (DR8) to not bother to defend himself against an opponent armed with a sap That's right. Stand still and accept flat footed AC, if that's your bag. A sap still might get through, though. You'd only be rolling 1D8 to reduce the damage, and that's ignored on a critical.
Robbo 07-05-05, 03:58 AM	On the contrary, I don't think that a "hit" that only does VP damage necessarily hits at all! VP does not relate to the ability to "absorb" punishment, but to avoid it! It is another way of modelling class defence - i.e. as you increase in experience you are better able to avoid taking wounds in a fight for longer. Only an attack that causes WP damage actually hits you with enough force to worry about. The loss of VP surely represents the loss of "vitality" resulting from the extreme effort required to dodge, block, deflect the on-target blow? Regarding a sap vs full plate armour - I would just not allow a critical in those circumstances. The guy with the sap had better try grappling, use a more appropriate weapon, or run!
BelZoradon 07-05-05, 12:33 PM	ok maybe im wrong but a sap (if used proporly) against a guy in full play armor might not knock him out but it sure as hell is gonna ring his bell and if done repetedly you bet your damn skippy the guy in full plate isnt gonna be doing much sept ripping his helm off and lookin around for some painkiller subdual damage shouldnt be subject to DR... maybe hmmm ~runs off to work on a DR becomes subdual damage rules~
Robbo 07-06-05, 04:28 AM	Well, to be fair, I really have no idea what it feels like to wear a great helm or bascinet, and be hit on the head by a sap. But my guess is that the arming cap (the padded "hat" under the helm that helps absorb the force of blows) would dissipate much of the force. Although in medieval times it was usually of benefit to capture a fully armoured person rather than kill him, because if he could afford full plate his family could probably afford a ransom, I don't remember ever reading about any infantry arming themselves with saps - halberds, mauls, daggers, hammers, picks - yes, but not saps! I do agree though that a heavy impact from a military hammer etc would have an effect - I would reduce the DR of plate by assigning a "penetration" value to each such weapon, in the same way that I would make it easier to do damage with a tapered sword than a broad sword against the joints and small openings in full armour. There is also the factor of whether a hammer like weapon might cause damage to the armour - there are accounts of visors being damaged on the battlefield, for example, so that they could not be lowered, thus exposing the face. A dented piece of armour may restrict movement or even compress the body inside to make breathing difficult etc (A Knight's Tale?) I guess the trick is to have an easy game system that results in potentially complex and varied effects. I'm still improving my stab at it...one day I'll publish...one day...