XP Reduction as an Alternative to LA [Archive] - Wizards Community

XP Reduction as an Alternative to LA [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kage_no_Neko
12-28-06, 06:53 PM Like many of you I have long had issue with the LA system used. One of my biggest problems is it does not allow a creature with a LA to start out with a group of first level players. While it makes some sense, a creature with only LA (say a template or humanoid race) is in general no more functional with 1 class level than any other 1st level character.

My system works with the idea of a character with a LA getting reduced experience as opposed to a level offset. In other words, the XP necessary to reach a new level is the same for a character with LA as with normal characters; the LA character just gets reduced XP for each encounter.

The way the system works is you take your characters LA and multiply it by 5%. This is the amount you reduce your XP award after any encounter. At 3rd level, and every third level thereafter, the reduction goes down by 5% (to a minimum of 0% of course).

Level 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90% 95% 100%
----- -- -- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ----
1 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90% 95% 100%
2 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90% 95% 100%
3 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90% 95% 100%
4 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90% 95%
5 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90% 95%
6 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90% 95%
7 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90%
8 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90%
9 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90%
10 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85%
11 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85%
12 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85%
13 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80%
14 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80%
15 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80%
16 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75%
17 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75%
18 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75%
19 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70%
20 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70%

As you can see my system does not penalize low LA creatures nearly as badly as the other systems, and still allows a creature with LA to be a caster class. Now this is still a rough draft, and I am still working with the values, but I would like your opinions about this system.

A character in this system must accomplish more to reach the same XP level as a normal character. The equivalent XP amounts for a normal character are listed below.

Level 0 LA (0%) 1 LA (5%) 2 LA (10%) 3 LA (15%) 4 LA (20%) 5 LA (25%) 6 LA (30%) 7 LA (35%) 8 LA (40%) 9 LA (45%) 10 LA (50%) 11 LA (55%) 12 LA (60%) 13 LA (65%) 14 LA (70%) 15 LA (75%) 16 LA (80%) 17 LA (85%) 18 LA (90%) 19 LA (95%) 20 LA (100%)
----- --------- --------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ------------
1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2 1,000 1,053 1,111 1,176 1,250 1,333 1,429 1,538 1,667 1,818 2,000 2,222 2,500 2,857 3,333 4,000 5,000 6,667 10,000 20,000 20,000
3 3,000 3,158 3,333 3,529 3,750 4,000 4,286 4,615 5,000 5,455 6,000 6,667 7,500 8,571 10,000 12,000 15,000 20,000 30,000 60,000 60,000
4 6,000 6,316 6,667 7,059 7,500 8,000 8,571 9,231 10,000 10,909 12,000 13,333 15,000 17,143 20,000 24,000 30,000 40,000 60,000 120,000 120,000
5 10,000 10,316 10,877 11,503 12,206 13,000 13,905 14,945 16,154 17,576 19,273 21,333 23,889 27,143 31,429 37,333 46,000 60,000 86,667 160,000 200,000
6 15,000 15,316 16,140 17,059 18,088 19,250 20,571 22,088 23,846 25,909 28,364 31,333 35,000 39,643 45,714 54,000 66,000 85,000 120,000 210,000 300,000
7 21,000 21,316 22,456 23,725 25,147 26,750 28,571 30,659 33,077 35,909 39,273 43,333 48,333 54,643 62,857 74,000 90,000 115,000 160,000 270,000 420,000
8 28,000 28,316 29,456 31,094 32,925 34,985 37,321 39,993 43,077 46,678 50,939 56,061 62,333 70,198 80,357 94,000 113,333 143,000 195,000 316,667 490,000
9 36,000 36,316 37,456 39,515 41,814 44,397 47,321 50,659 54,505 58,986 64,273 70,606 78,333 87,976 100,357 116,857 140,000 175,000 235,000 370,000 570,000
10 45,000 45,316 46,456 48,989 51,814 54,985 58,571 62,659 67,363 72,832 79,273 86,970 96,333 107,976 122,857 142,571 170,000 211,000 280,000 430,000 660,000
11 55,000 55,316 56,456 58,989 62,340 66,096 70,336 75,159 80,696 87,118 94,657 103,636 114,515 127,976 145,079 167,571 198,571 244,333 320,000 480,000 726,667
12 66,000 66,316 67,456 69,989 73,919 78,319 83,277 88,909 95,363 102,832 111,580 121,970 134,515 149,976 169,524 195,071 230,000 281,000 364,000 535,000 800,000
13 78,000 78,316 79,456 81,989 86,551 91,652 97,395 103,909 111,363 119,975 130,042 141,970 156,333 173,976 196,190 225,071 264,286 321,000 412,000 595,000 880,000
14 91,000 91,316 92,456 94,989 99,551 105,336 111,839 119,203 127,613 137,308 148,613 161,970 178,000 197,613 222,190 253,960 296,786 358,143 455,333 647,000 945,000
15 105,000 105,316 106,456 108,989 113,551 120,073 127,395 135,674 145,113 155,975 168,613 183,508 201,333 223,067 250,190 285,071 331,786 398,143 502,000 703,000 1,015,000
16 120,000 120,316 121,456 123,989 128,551 135,862 144,062 153,321 163,863 175,975 190,042 206,585 226,333 250,340 280,190 318,405 369,286 441,000 552,000 763,000 1,090,000
17 136,000 136,316 137,456 139,989 144,551 151,862 160,904 171,099 182,686 195,975 211,375 229,442 250,949 277,006 309,281 350,405 404,841 481,000 597,714 816,333 1,154,000
18 153,000 153,316 154,456 156,989 161,551 168,862 178,798 189,988 202,686 217,225 234,042 253,728 277,103 305,340 340,190 384,405 442,619 523,500 646,286 873,000 1,222,000
19 171,000 171,316 172,456 174,989 179,551 186,862 197,746 209,988 223,863 239,725 258,042 279,442 304,795 335,340 372,918 420,405 482,619 568,500 697,714 933,000 1,294,000
20 190,000 190,316 191,456 193,989 198,551 205,862 216,746 229,988 244,974 262,078 281,792 304,776 331,938 364,571 404,584 454,950 520,619 610,722 745,214 987,286 1,357,333

The other benefit of this system is for creatures with both LA and racial hit dice. You add the racial hit dice and the LA to get the creatures base ECL and plug that into the equation above. Then you just treat the creature's racial hit dice as class levels (remembering to reduce the XP penalty every 3rd level) and just continue from there.
caeruleus
12-28-06, 07:11 PM As you can see my system does not penalize low LA creatures nearly as badly as the other systems

Yeah, but it doesn't really penalize them much at all. A character with up to LA +5 will only be at most one level behind a character with LA +0.

An interesting approach, though.
Kage_no_Neko
12-28-06, 07:19 PM Yeah, thats the problem. This is a rough draft, but I have not been able to find a good balance between the actual XP penalty and when it drops in value.

This system was designed to work more for high LA or base ECL creatures than for low LAs. So while I think some of the higher values balance okay the lower ones seem to weak.
Sleepwalker13666
12-29-06, 03:06 AM The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has an alternate experiance chart for characters with level adjustments, I personally don't like it, but it allows you to play your character from level 1.
caeruleus
12-29-06, 12:49 PM The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has an alternate experiance chart for characters with level adjustments, I personally don't like it, but it allows you to play your character from level 1.

That's just the Level Adjustment system. While character level can start at 1st, effective character level will be higher.
Darkmatter20
12-29-06, 01:00 PM Why XP penalites don't work for level adjusments.
Its a good article.
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/LAvsXPpenalty.html

Good effort but basicily the article says that for most of the characters time level 1-20 they will be almost if not the same level.

Most importantly racial abilities make the most difference at LOW level. The xp reduction system has close to no influence at low level when racial abilities matter.
Keterys
12-29-06, 03:07 PM Most importantly racial abilities make the most difference at LOW level.

Incorrect. _Some_ do - really, they should have scaling LA costs for things based on level (similar to some scaling costs for CRs for templates)

Those lost hit dice make the most difference at low level, most assuredly. At 20th level, sucking up a 2 LA in order to get a bunch of bonuses is far more palatable than at 3rd.

But, the proposed system is flat out broken, in many ways. You'd be insane not to take LA in it... sure, maybe you have a minor penalty to xp compared to someone without, but you're able to take on much higher CRs, and get much more xp.

Make racial levels like the way the racial paragons are setup. As many as you might need to for a race (make sure they all have hit dice, unlike save species progressions) and feel free to give casting for races that should be casters, even if just caster level bumps without additional spells known. Don't feel a need to duplicate the creature's monster manual entry. The monster manual is for the DM to throw critters at the party and not for PCs to play more interesting things. You end up with crappy PCs (or overpowered, more rarely). Design stuff for PCs to use from the ground up, just trying to get the flavor right. Only solution I've seen so far to LA that actually seems to work.
Darkmatter20
12-29-06, 06:00 PM Incorrect. _Some_ do - really, they should have scaling LA costs for things based on level (similar to some scaling costs for CRs for templates)

I meant in this proposed system you could have a lv one half dragon runing around with a lv one humans at no real cost to the (should be) level adjusted race. You next point is what I was what I was considering

But, the proposed system is flat out broken, in many ways. You'd be insane not to take LA in it... sure, maybe you have a minor penalty to xp compared to someone without, but you're able to take on much higher CRs, and get much more xp.

A very good point. While the level adjust character is has a penalty on xp as soon as the other charactes level and you up the CR the level adjust character is gaining xp faster and soon catches up with the rest. So for most of the time in game all the characters are the same level or close to it.

Personnally I think that the Lv adjustment buy-off in unearthed arcana are a good step forward.
Avihs
12-29-06, 10:07 PM Actually, I tried a XP penalty/Buy off house rule. It hadn't gone the way I had thought it might. When I offered the option to the group, everyone, and I mean EVERYONE took a LA race. I kept it limited to a +2 LA, and they were managing to come up with some formidable characters.

If you do pursue this avenue, deffinitely set down some limits on what can be used (max LA or only certain races appropriate to the campaign). Reason I say that is because after the campaign started, I had people wanting to change characters because they found some "uber" template to use. As an example, check out the Feral template from Savage Species. Only a +1 LA. For your system, major bonuses for only a 10% xp hit.

I haven't given up on the idea though. If I were to do it again, I would do it different.

Some thoughts:
1) If a player wished to make use of a race or template (no racial HD allowed) with an LA, I would break down the race/template as introduced in Wizard's online article: Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a).

2) Allow a form of "gestalt" progression, where the character simultaneously gains his "racial/template level" along side with his normal class level.

3) Assign a flat 20% xp penalty to the character while he is gaining his "racial" levels. The same penalty as if he were multiclassed unevenly. Additionally, the character would have to pay this xp penalty for a number of levels equal to the LA of the race, times 3. So, a +1LA would be paying for 3 levels, while a +4LA would pay for the benefits for 12 levels.
Keterys
12-30-06, 01:06 AM If memory serves, the LA/CR for Feral is backwards, so it's really like +2 or +3 or somesuch.

And yeah, I really abhor all of the minor penalty / buy-back programs, cause they just say 'be LA', which is only good if you want everyone to do so (ie, like a monster game). But, I'd much rather just say 'Okay, everyone is a hobgoblin from this empire, there's no LA penalty, now go'
Kage_no_Neko
12-30-06, 03:57 PM After reading Sean K. Reynold's article on XP penalties (linked above) I agree that this system is probably broken beyond recovery. I posted the listed tables because I thought someone might have a way of fixing the issues where there really was no effective penalty for low levels.

Now don't get me wrong; I like the idea of having a higher ECL character traveling with a group, just taking longer to level. I think it is perfectly acceptable as my point about a 1st CL half-dragon (template) being rarely able to stand up with a group of traveling 5th level characters states. A low character level creature with a LA is relatively worthless in a party of equivalent ECL. At mid-character levels (3rd or higher, depending upon the level of the group) the creature is penalized but now able to support the party. And at higher character levels the creatures racial abilities play a much more insignificant role than the class levels (which they should, but not as much as the LA/ECL variance maintains). Even with the LA buy-off in UA this problem persists unless the characters LA is 3 or less.

In other words, I feel that the current system makes LA creatures impossible to play at low class levels, and inconveniently penalized well beyond the scope and effect of their race afterwards. I thought this might be a fix but as S.K.R.'s article points out XP penalties really only start to eat into your character at later levels, even with the % drop off I added.
unundindur
12-30-06, 05:18 PM I agree with the last post.

I have played many weird combo's, and usually people complain about them beeing to good etc. before play starts, but as I usually expect the templates are more of a hinder than a blessing (HD, skill and feat progression beeing so important).

Eventually we changed it so you gain feats and skills for your LA too, and the maks rank for skills was neither affected by LA.

That made it worthwhile. It must be said though that I have only played dark elf, half-celestial and half-dragon to any extent (and a half celestial winged drow).
Evillain
12-30-06, 06:55 PM What I use for bloodlines (I know it not LA but its close) is taht i make the players pay a level in XP instead of taking a HD less level. (so leveling to level 3, 6 and 12 takes double XP for those with a major blodline).

We could use the same for LA. For each LA you have you must pay Twice the xp to level each 3rd level. so for 1 LA you take 6000 xp to go from level 2 to level 3 (instead of 3000). if you have 2 LA you take double XP to go from level 2 to 3 and 5 to 6. if you have 3 LA you take double XP to go from lvl 2-3, 5-6, 8-9... and so forth. it's like XP buy off but without the initial penalty. so yeah your stronger at lower levels, but you do level less quickly.

I donno just my two cents (yes, cents not cp)
Kage_no_Neko
12-31-06, 01:23 AM What I use for bloodlines (I know it not LA but its close) is taht i make the players pay a level in XP instead of taking a HD less level. (so leveling to level 3, 6 and 12 takes double XP for those with a major blodline).

We could use the same for LA. For each LA you have you must pay Twice the xp to level each 3rd level. so for 1 LA you take 6000 xp to go from level 2 to level 3 (instead of 3000). if you have 2 LA you take double XP to go from level 2 to 3 and 5 to 6. if you have 3 LA you take double XP to go from lvl 2-3, 5-6, 8-9... and so forth. it's like XP buy off but without the initial penalty. so yeah your stronger at lower levels, but you do level less quickly.

I donno just my two cents (yes, cents not cp)

With some tweaks this might work, but double every third level is not enough. As a truly pathological case I present my Valkyrie template (+15 LA), an update of the quasi-deity from the book Deities and Demigods.

If we had a progression, say:
+1 LA doubled the XP cost of third level,
+2 LA doubled the XP cost of third and sixth level,
+3 LA doubled the XP cost of third, sixth, and ninth level,
+4 LA doubled the XP cost of third, fourth, sixth, and ninth level,
and so on ...

And some point you would also want to increase the cost, from double to triple or even quadruple. You also don't want to go to far, having increased XP cost past level 9 does not feel right with the benefit/cost ratio of most creatures.
Keterys
01-01-07, 03:19 PM Any XP cost (percentage or flat) will eventually be removed, or won't matter for much of the time. Sean's study goes into that, but if memory serves it doesn't even factor in the fact that you get more xp for being lower level in 3.5 / FRCS 3.0 xp rules, which means you may actually be _ahead_ some of the time, and are only behind for extremely short periods of time.
Kage_no_Neko
01-01-07, 08:52 PM Yeah thats why after reading Mr. Reynold's article I said this XP reduction system is probably to broken beyond repair. That said, I think Evillain's alternative might have merit.
caeruleus
01-02-07, 03:33 AM Yeah thats why after reading Mr. Reynold's article I said this XP reduction system is probably to broken beyond repair. That said, I think Evillain's alternative might have merit.

But it's the same thing. Having to earn twice the XP has the exact same result as only receiving 50% of XP rewards.
Keterys
01-02-07, 11:28 AM Roughly it means that at most you've reduced LA +X to LA+1.

Which isn't balanced.

Like I said, design 'racial paragon' style levels for any wacky races folks want to do. It lets you balance everything. Ignore the monster manual when it comes to making PCs. Really.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kage_no_Neko 12-28-06, 06:53 PM	Like many of you I have long had issue with the LA system used. One of my biggest problems is it does not allow a creature with a LA to start out with a group of first level players. While it makes some sense, a creature with only LA (say a template or humanoid race) is in general no more functional with 1 class level than any other 1st level character. My system works with the idea of a character with a LA getting reduced experience as opposed to a level offset. In other words, the XP necessary to reach a new level is the same for a character with LA as with normal characters; the LA character just gets reduced XP for each encounter. The way the system works is you take your characters LA and multiply it by 5%. This is the amount you reduce your XP award after any encounter. At 3rd level, and every third level thereafter, the reduction goes down by 5% (to a minimum of 0% of course). Level 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90% 95% 100% ----- -- -- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---- 1 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90% 95% 100% 2 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90% 95% 100% 3 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90% 95% 100% 4 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90% 95% 5 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90% 95% 6 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90% 95% 7 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90% 8 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90% 9 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 90% 10 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 11 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 12 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 85% 13 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 14 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 15 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 80% 16 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 17 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 18 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 75% 19 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% 20 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35% 40% 45% 50% 55% 60% 65% 70% As you can see my system does not penalize low LA creatures nearly as badly as the other systems, and still allows a creature with LA to be a caster class. Now this is still a rough draft, and I am still working with the values, but I would like your opinions about this system. A character in this system must accomplish more to reach the same XP level as a normal character. The equivalent XP amounts for a normal character are listed below. Level 0 LA (0%) 1 LA (5%) 2 LA (10%) 3 LA (15%) 4 LA (20%) 5 LA (25%) 6 LA (30%) 7 LA (35%) 8 LA (40%) 9 LA (45%) 10 LA (50%) 11 LA (55%) 12 LA (60%) 13 LA (65%) 14 LA (70%) 15 LA (75%) 16 LA (80%) 17 LA (85%) 18 LA (90%) 19 LA (95%) 20 LA (100%) ----- --------- --------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ------------ 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 1,000 1,053 1,111 1,176 1,250 1,333 1,429 1,538 1,667 1,818 2,000 2,222 2,500 2,857 3,333 4,000 5,000 6,667 10,000 20,000 20,000 3 3,000 3,158 3,333 3,529 3,750 4,000 4,286 4,615 5,000 5,455 6,000 6,667 7,500 8,571 10,000 12,000 15,000 20,000 30,000 60,000 60,000 4 6,000 6,316 6,667 7,059 7,500 8,000 8,571 9,231 10,000 10,909 12,000 13,333 15,000 17,143 20,000 24,000 30,000 40,000 60,000 120,000 120,000 5 10,000 10,316 10,877 11,503 12,206 13,000 13,905 14,945 16,154 17,576 19,273 21,333 23,889 27,143 31,429 37,333 46,000 60,000 86,667 160,000 200,000 6 15,000 15,316 16,140 17,059 18,088 19,250 20,571 22,088 23,846 25,909 28,364 31,333 35,000 39,643 45,714 54,000 66,000 85,000 120,000 210,000 300,000 7 21,000 21,316 22,456 23,725 25,147 26,750 28,571 30,659 33,077 35,909 39,273 43,333 48,333 54,643 62,857 74,000 90,000 115,000 160,000 270,000 420,000 8 28,000 28,316 29,456 31,094 32,925 34,985 37,321 39,993 43,077 46,678 50,939 56,061 62,333 70,198 80,357 94,000 113,333 143,000 195,000 316,667 490,000 9 36,000 36,316 37,456 39,515 41,814 44,397 47,321 50,659 54,505 58,986 64,273 70,606 78,333 87,976 100,357 116,857 140,000 175,000 235,000 370,000 570,000 10 45,000 45,316 46,456 48,989 51,814 54,985 58,571 62,659 67,363 72,832 79,273 86,970 96,333 107,976 122,857 142,571 170,000 211,000 280,000 430,000 660,000 11 55,000 55,316 56,456 58,989 62,340 66,096 70,336 75,159 80,696 87,118 94,657 103,636 114,515 127,976 145,079 167,571 198,571 244,333 320,000 480,000 726,667 12 66,000 66,316 67,456 69,989 73,919 78,319 83,277 88,909 95,363 102,832 111,580 121,970 134,515 149,976 169,524 195,071 230,000 281,000 364,000 535,000 800,000 13 78,000 78,316 79,456 81,989 86,551 91,652 97,395 103,909 111,363 119,975 130,042 141,970 156,333 173,976 196,190 225,071 264,286 321,000 412,000 595,000 880,000 14 91,000 91,316 92,456 94,989 99,551 105,336 111,839 119,203 127,613 137,308 148,613 161,970 178,000 197,613 222,190 253,960 296,786 358,143 455,333 647,000 945,000 15 105,000 105,316 106,456 108,989 113,551 120,073 127,395 135,674 145,113 155,975 168,613 183,508 201,333 223,067 250,190 285,071 331,786 398,143 502,000 703,000 1,015,000 16 120,000 120,316 121,456 123,989 128,551 135,862 144,062 153,321 163,863 175,975 190,042 206,585 226,333 250,340 280,190 318,405 369,286 441,000 552,000 763,000 1,090,000 17 136,000 136,316 137,456 139,989 144,551 151,862 160,904 171,099 182,686 195,975 211,375 229,442 250,949 277,006 309,281 350,405 404,841 481,000 597,714 816,333 1,154,000 18 153,000 153,316 154,456 156,989 161,551 168,862 178,798 189,988 202,686 217,225 234,042 253,728 277,103 305,340 340,190 384,405 442,619 523,500 646,286 873,000 1,222,000 19 171,000 171,316 172,456 174,989 179,551 186,862 197,746 209,988 223,863 239,725 258,042 279,442 304,795 335,340 372,918 420,405 482,619 568,500 697,714 933,000 1,294,000 20 190,000 190,316 191,456 193,989 198,551 205,862 216,746 229,988 244,974 262,078 281,792 304,776 331,938 364,571 404,584 454,950 520,619 610,722 745,214 987,286 1,357,333 The other benefit of this system is for creatures with both LA and racial hit dice. You add the racial hit dice and the LA to get the creatures base ECL and plug that into the equation above. Then you just treat the creature's racial hit dice as class levels (remembering to reduce the XP penalty every 3rd level) and just continue from there.
caeruleus 12-28-06, 07:11 PM	As you can see my system does not penalize low LA creatures nearly as badly as the other systems Yeah, but it doesn't really penalize them much at all. A character with up to LA +5 will only be at most one level behind a character with LA +0. An interesting approach, though.
Kage_no_Neko 12-28-06, 07:19 PM	Yeah, thats the problem. This is a rough draft, but I have not been able to find a good balance between the actual XP penalty and when it drops in value. This system was designed to work more for high LA or base ECL creatures than for low LAs. So while I think some of the higher values balance okay the lower ones seem to weak.
Sleepwalker13666 12-29-06, 03:06 AM	The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has an alternate experiance chart for characters with level adjustments, I personally don't like it, but it allows you to play your character from level 1.
caeruleus 12-29-06, 12:49 PM	The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has an alternate experiance chart for characters with level adjustments, I personally don't like it, but it allows you to play your character from level 1. That's just the Level Adjustment system. While character level can start at 1st, effective character level will be higher.
Darkmatter20 12-29-06, 01:00 PM	Why XP penalites don't work for level adjusments. Its a good article. http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/LAvsXPpenalty.html Good effort but basicily the article says that for most of the characters time level 1-20 they will be almost if not the same level. Most importantly racial abilities make the most difference at LOW level. The xp reduction system has close to no influence at low level when racial abilities matter.
Keterys 12-29-06, 03:07 PM	Most importantly racial abilities make the most difference at LOW level. Incorrect. _Some_ do - really, they should have scaling LA costs for things based on level (similar to some scaling costs for CRs for templates) Those lost hit dice make the most difference at low level, most assuredly. At 20th level, sucking up a 2 LA in order to get a bunch of bonuses is far more palatable than at 3rd. But, the proposed system is flat out broken, in many ways. You'd be insane not to take LA in it... sure, maybe you have a minor penalty to xp compared to someone without, but you're able to take on much higher CRs, and get much more xp. Make racial levels like the way the racial paragons are setup. As many as you might need to for a race (make sure they all have hit dice, unlike save species progressions) and feel free to give casting for races that should be casters, even if just caster level bumps without additional spells known. Don't feel a need to duplicate the creature's monster manual entry. The monster manual is for the DM to throw critters at the party and not for PCs to play more interesting things. You end up with crappy PCs (or overpowered, more rarely). Design stuff for PCs to use from the ground up, just trying to get the flavor right. Only solution I've seen so far to LA that actually seems to work.
Darkmatter20 12-29-06, 06:00 PM	Incorrect. _Some_ do - really, they should have scaling LA costs for things based on level (similar to some scaling costs for CRs for templates) I meant in this proposed system you could have a lv one half dragon runing around with a lv one humans at no real cost to the (should be) level adjusted race. You next point is what I was what I was considering But, the proposed system is flat out broken, in many ways. You'd be insane not to take LA in it... sure, maybe you have a minor penalty to xp compared to someone without, but you're able to take on much higher CRs, and get much more xp. A very good point. While the level adjust character is has a penalty on xp as soon as the other charactes level and you up the CR the level adjust character is gaining xp faster and soon catches up with the rest. So for most of the time in game all the characters are the same level or close to it. Personnally I think that the Lv adjustment buy-off in unearthed arcana are a good step forward.
Avihs 12-29-06, 10:07 PM	Actually, I tried a XP penalty/Buy off house rule. It hadn't gone the way I had thought it might. When I offered the option to the group, everyone, and I mean EVERYONE took a LA race. I kept it limited to a +2 LA, and they were managing to come up with some formidable characters. If you do pursue this avenue, deffinitely set down some limits on what can be used (max LA or only certain races appropriate to the campaign). Reason I say that is because after the campaign started, I had people wanting to change characters because they found some "uber" template to use. As an example, check out the Feral template from Savage Species. Only a +1 LA. For your system, major bonuses for only a 10% xp hit. I haven't given up on the idea though. If I were to do it again, I would do it different. Some thoughts: 1) If a player wished to make use of a race or template (no racial HD allowed) with an LA, I would break down the race/template as introduced in Wizard's online article: Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a). 2) Allow a form of "gestalt" progression, where the character simultaneously gains his "racial/template level" along side with his normal class level. 3) Assign a flat 20% xp penalty to the character while he is gaining his "racial" levels. The same penalty as if he were multiclassed unevenly. Additionally, the character would have to pay this xp penalty for a number of levels equal to the LA of the race, times 3. So, a +1LA would be paying for 3 levels, while a +4LA would pay for the benefits for 12 levels.
Keterys 12-30-06, 01:06 AM	If memory serves, the LA/CR for Feral is backwards, so it's really like +2 or +3 or somesuch. And yeah, I really abhor all of the minor penalty / buy-back programs, cause they just say 'be LA', which is only good if you want everyone to do so (ie, like a monster game). But, I'd much rather just say 'Okay, everyone is a hobgoblin from this empire, there's no LA penalty, now go'
Kage_no_Neko 12-30-06, 03:57 PM	After reading Sean K. Reynold's article on XP penalties (linked above) I agree that this system is probably broken beyond recovery. I posted the listed tables because I thought someone might have a way of fixing the issues where there really was no effective penalty for low levels. Now don't get me wrong; I like the idea of having a higher ECL character traveling with a group, just taking longer to level. I think it is perfectly acceptable as my point about a 1st CL half-dragon (template) being rarely able to stand up with a group of traveling 5th level characters states. A low character level creature with a LA is relatively worthless in a party of equivalent ECL. At mid-character levels (3rd or higher, depending upon the level of the group) the creature is penalized but now able to support the party. And at higher character levels the creatures racial abilities play a much more insignificant role than the class levels (which they should, but not as much as the LA/ECL variance maintains). Even with the LA buy-off in UA this problem persists unless the characters LA is 3 or less. In other words, I feel that the current system makes LA creatures impossible to play at low class levels, and inconveniently penalized well beyond the scope and effect of their race afterwards. I thought this might be a fix but as S.K.R.'s article points out XP penalties really only start to eat into your character at later levels, even with the % drop off I added.
unundindur 12-30-06, 05:18 PM	I agree with the last post. I have played many weird combo's, and usually people complain about them beeing to good etc. before play starts, but as I usually expect the templates are more of a hinder than a blessing (HD, skill and feat progression beeing so important). Eventually we changed it so you gain feats and skills for your LA too, and the maks rank for skills was neither affected by LA. That made it worthwhile. It must be said though that I have only played dark elf, half-celestial and half-dragon to any extent (and a half celestial winged drow).
Evillain 12-30-06, 06:55 PM	What I use for bloodlines (I know it not LA but its close) is taht i make the players pay a level in XP instead of taking a HD less level. (so leveling to level 3, 6 and 12 takes double XP for those with a major blodline). We could use the same for LA. For each LA you have you must pay Twice the xp to level each 3rd level. so for 1 LA you take 6000 xp to go from level 2 to level 3 (instead of 3000). if you have 2 LA you take double XP to go from level 2 to 3 and 5 to 6. if you have 3 LA you take double XP to go from lvl 2-3, 5-6, 8-9... and so forth. it's like XP buy off but without the initial penalty. so yeah your stronger at lower levels, but you do level less quickly. I donno just my two cents (yes, cents not cp)
Kage_no_Neko 12-31-06, 01:23 AM	What I use for bloodlines (I know it not LA but its close) is taht i make the players pay a level in XP instead of taking a HD less level. (so leveling to level 3, 6 and 12 takes double XP for those with a major blodline). We could use the same for LA. For each LA you have you must pay Twice the xp to level each 3rd level. so for 1 LA you take 6000 xp to go from level 2 to level 3 (instead of 3000). if you have 2 LA you take double XP to go from level 2 to 3 and 5 to 6. if you have 3 LA you take double XP to go from lvl 2-3, 5-6, 8-9... and so forth. it's like XP buy off but without the initial penalty. so yeah your stronger at lower levels, but you do level less quickly. I donno just my two cents (yes, cents not cp) With some tweaks this might work, but double every third level is not enough. As a truly pathological case I present my Valkyrie template (+15 LA), an update of the quasi-deity from the book Deities and Demigods. If we had a progression, say: +1 LA doubled the XP cost of third level, +2 LA doubled the XP cost of third and sixth level, +3 LA doubled the XP cost of third, sixth, and ninth level, +4 LA doubled the XP cost of third, fourth, sixth, and ninth level, and so on ... And some point you would also want to increase the cost, from double to triple or even quadruple. You also don't want to go to far, having increased XP cost past level 9 does not feel right with the benefit/cost ratio of most creatures.
Keterys 01-01-07, 03:19 PM	Any XP cost (percentage or flat) will eventually be removed, or won't matter for much of the time. Sean's study goes into that, but if memory serves it doesn't even factor in the fact that you get more xp for being lower level in 3.5 / FRCS 3.0 xp rules, which means you may actually be _ahead_ some of the time, and are only behind for extremely short periods of time.
Kage_no_Neko 01-01-07, 08:52 PM	Yeah thats why after reading Mr. Reynold's article I said this XP reduction system is probably to broken beyond repair. That said, I think Evillain's alternative might have merit.
caeruleus 01-02-07, 03:33 AM	Yeah thats why after reading Mr. Reynold's article I said this XP reduction system is probably to broken beyond repair. That said, I think Evillain's alternative might have merit. But it's the same thing. Having to earn twice the XP has the exact same result as only receiving 50% of XP rewards.
Keterys 01-02-07, 11:28 AM	Roughly it means that at most you've reduced LA +X to LA+1. Which isn't balanced. Like I said, design 'racial paragon' style levels for any wacky races folks want to do. It lets you balance everything. Ignore the monster manual when it comes to making PCs. Really.