XP-based Level adjustment [Archive] - Wizards Community

XP-based Level adjustment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Naderion
09-23-07, 10:16 AM I'm sure this has been thought of many times before, but I would be interested in what other people may think about this.

Insted of having the LA Level-based, it could be made based on a XP-value. For example, a drow has a LA not of +2 levels but indtead of -3000 XP.

So when the dm allows to create 5th level characters (10.000 XP), you could make a human with 10.000 XP and level 5, or you make a drow with 7.000 XP and level 4.

The big problem with LA seems to be, that the traits that make races extremely strong at first level, become meaningless later in the game. LA +2 will always be LA +2, if you are level 3 and 1 or level 20 and 18. But -3.000 XP will have less impact at every new level. If you have 72,000 XP and level 12 or 69,000 XP and level 12 doesn't really make a differnce anymore.

Of course, it still sucks when everyone starts with 0 XP and you first have to pay the 3.000 XP and then get 1.000 XP more to get to level 2, but that's just what it means if you want to play more powerfull races at 1st level and are allowed to do so.

Think that would work? With LA +2/-3.000 XP, you would have cached up at 4th level when you have 6.000 XP and everyone else 9.000 XP (and still not be level 5).
Gemstone
09-23-07, 12:36 PM I'm sure this has been thought of many times before, but I would be interested in what other people may think about this.

Insted of having the LA Level-based, it could be made based on a XP-value. For example, a drow has a LA not of +2 levels but indtead of -3000 XP.

So when the dm allows to create 5th level characters (10.000 XP), you could make a human with 10.000 XP and level 5, or you make a drow with 7.000 XP and level 4.

The big problem with LA seems to be, that the traits that make races extremely strong at first level, become meaningless later in the game. LA +2 will always be LA +2, if you are level 3 and 1 or level 20 and 18. But -3.000 XP will have less impact at every new level. If you have 72,000 XP and level 12 or 69,000 XP and level 12 doesn't really make a differnce anymore.

Of course, it still sucks when everyone starts with 0 XP and you first have to pay the 3.000 XP and then get 1.000 XP more to get to level 2, but that's just what it means if you want to play more powerfull races at 1st level and are allowed to do so.

Think that would work? With LA +2/-3.000 XP, you would have cached up at 4th level when you have 6.000 XP and everyone else 9.000 XP (and still not be level 5).
While it would work for drow, it wouldn't work for other powerful characters, as the nature of the xp system is to catch up.

An LA +8 character for example, would have -28.000 xp... putting him not that far behind, as he would catch up and then be much more powerful than the others. With this system, there's no reason not to playing a monster :)
ArchmageOmega
09-23-07, 12:49 PM Actually, a LA+8 wouldn't catch up until level 29 (and then a LA+0 would only be 1000 xp from level 30). When the LA+0 was level 20, the LA+8 would be level 18. I sounds like it should work, but I don't think I'd let them go beyond a certain fixed xp-debt (maybe 0, maybe not). If you start with a LA+8 with -28,000 xp and LA+0's with 0, the LA+8 will own the game for at least 8 levels. They won't get more powerful, but until that point, they won't need to. Otherwise, I don't see any serious problems, but it'd need playtesting.

Edit: One thing to watch out for is level loss. It'd hurt the LA+0 more as written. Instead, you could have them lose xp based on ECL instead of level.
Naderion
09-23-07, 01:08 PM My real concern actually is, that this leads to penalties that are actually too low. I think even at 4th level, a drow is significantly stronger than other 4th level characters. +2 on Int and Cha, long-range, darkvision and scaling SR will always be very useful.

Maybe a combination of the two systems: You start with a XP-penalty of 1000 AND a LA of +1. As a rule of thumb 50% XP-penalty and 50% LA with favour to XP at odd LA-Values.
Lefty
09-23-07, 03:15 PM No I don't know what LA means, but what if you did
a pay as you go and revoked an amount of xp at each
level to maintain your bonus.

Characters who dominate the game ussually survive.

Lefty
RobbyPants
09-24-07, 03:57 PM Actually, from my understanding of it, the Level Adjustment Buy-off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) system is designed to both give you an XP penalty as opposed to a static LA and keep it from applying to a large chunk of XP at a time (such as the LA +8 monster explained earlier).

The idea is that you can buy off the LA slowly (for a fixed XP price), allowing you to catch up, but you can't do it all at one shot. It works really well for creatures with a fairly low LA. I guess it's also a nice way to at least reduce the LA of something more powerful. Still, either way, I guess you're stuck with the crappy Racial Hit Dice, if you have any.

I guess another option is to use the variant, but lower the levels that could be used (perhaps in increments of two levels instead of three).
Lefty
09-25-07, 01:23 PM Sounds like a number monster.
About "catching up," with more powerful character or
after character loss?
WHat do you GET for what you GIVE? Attack bonus or
high level skills? Like a used car loan?
I don't know if it was ever a rule, but one of our house rules
was that if your character died you get to keep a % of
the experience point to start a new character.
Some people make a habit of dying.

What do you get out of it????

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Naderion 09-23-07, 10:16 AM	I'm sure this has been thought of many times before, but I would be interested in what other people may think about this. Insted of having the LA Level-based, it could be made based on a XP-value. For example, a drow has a LA not of +2 levels but indtead of -3000 XP. So when the dm allows to create 5th level characters (10.000 XP), you could make a human with 10.000 XP and level 5, or you make a drow with 7.000 XP and level 4. The big problem with LA seems to be, that the traits that make races extremely strong at first level, become meaningless later in the game. LA +2 will always be LA +2, if you are level 3 and 1 or level 20 and 18. But -3.000 XP will have less impact at every new level. If you have 72,000 XP and level 12 or 69,000 XP and level 12 doesn't really make a differnce anymore. Of course, it still sucks when everyone starts with 0 XP and you first have to pay the 3.000 XP and then get 1.000 XP more to get to level 2, but that's just what it means if you want to play more powerfull races at 1st level and are allowed to do so. Think that would work? With LA +2/-3.000 XP, you would have cached up at 4th level when you have 6.000 XP and everyone else 9.000 XP (and still not be level 5).
Gemstone 09-23-07, 12:36 PM	I'm sure this has been thought of many times before, but I would be interested in what other people may think about this. Insted of having the LA Level-based, it could be made based on a XP-value. For example, a drow has a LA not of +2 levels but indtead of -3000 XP. So when the dm allows to create 5th level characters (10.000 XP), you could make a human with 10.000 XP and level 5, or you make a drow with 7.000 XP and level 4. The big problem with LA seems to be, that the traits that make races extremely strong at first level, become meaningless later in the game. LA +2 will always be LA +2, if you are level 3 and 1 or level 20 and 18. But -3.000 XP will have less impact at every new level. If you have 72,000 XP and level 12 or 69,000 XP and level 12 doesn't really make a differnce anymore. Of course, it still sucks when everyone starts with 0 XP and you first have to pay the 3.000 XP and then get 1.000 XP more to get to level 2, but that's just what it means if you want to play more powerfull races at 1st level and are allowed to do so. Think that would work? With LA +2/-3.000 XP, you would have cached up at 4th level when you have 6.000 XP and everyone else 9.000 XP (and still not be level 5). While it would work for drow, it wouldn't work for other powerful characters, as the nature of the xp system is to catch up. An LA +8 character for example, would have -28.000 xp... putting him not that far behind, as he would catch up and then be much more powerful than the others. With this system, there's no reason not to playing a monster :)
ArchmageOmega 09-23-07, 12:49 PM	Actually, a LA+8 wouldn't catch up until level 29 (and then a LA+0 would only be 1000 xp from level 30). When the LA+0 was level 20, the LA+8 would be level 18. I sounds like it should work, but I don't think I'd let them go beyond a certain fixed xp-debt (maybe 0, maybe not). If you start with a LA+8 with -28,000 xp and LA+0's with 0, the LA+8 will own the game for at least 8 levels. They won't get more powerful, but until that point, they won't need to. Otherwise, I don't see any serious problems, but it'd need playtesting. Edit: One thing to watch out for is level loss. It'd hurt the LA+0 more as written. Instead, you could have them lose xp based on ECL instead of level.
Naderion 09-23-07, 01:08 PM	My real concern actually is, that this leads to penalties that are actually too low. I think even at 4th level, a drow is significantly stronger than other 4th level characters. +2 on Int and Cha, long-range, darkvision and scaling SR will always be very useful. Maybe a combination of the two systems: You start with a XP-penalty of 1000 AND a LA of +1. As a rule of thumb 50% XP-penalty and 50% LA with favour to XP at odd LA-Values.
Lefty 09-23-07, 03:15 PM	No I don't know what LA means, but what if you did a pay as you go and revoked an amount of xp at each level to maintain your bonus. Characters who dominate the game ussually survive. Lefty
RobbyPants 09-24-07, 03:57 PM	Actually, from my understanding of it, the Level Adjustment Buy-off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) system is designed to both give you an XP penalty as opposed to a static LA and keep it from applying to a large chunk of XP at a time (such as the LA +8 monster explained earlier). The idea is that you can buy off the LA slowly (for a fixed XP price), allowing you to catch up, but you can't do it all at one shot. It works really well for creatures with a fairly low LA. I guess it's also a nice way to at least reduce the LA of something more powerful. Still, either way, I guess you're stuck with the crappy Racial Hit Dice, if you have any. I guess another option is to use the variant, but lower the levels that could be used (perhaps in increments of two levels instead of three).
Lefty 09-25-07, 01:23 PM	Sounds like a number monster. About "catching up," with more powerful character or after character loss? WHat do you GET for what you GIVE? Attack bonus or high level skills? Like a used car loan? I don't know if it was ever a rule, but one of our house rules was that if your character died you get to keep a % of the experience point to start a new character. Some people make a habit of dying. What do you get out of it????