Yet Another Class: Anti-Mage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Yet Another Class: Anti-Mage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nathreet
07-17-07, 01:55 AM ANTI-MAGE
Concept: A warrior trained to combat magic. He may despise magic, or he may respect or even admire it as a force that must be dealt with carefully.
Hit Die: D6
Saves: Good fort, bad ref, good will
BAB: medium
weapon and armor proficiencies: all simple weapons, light hammers, warhammers, longbows, shortbows, bolas, nets, light and medium armor, shields (including tower shields).
skill points per level: 4
skills: climb, craft, decipher script, handle animal, heal, intimidate, jump, knowledge (arcana), knowledge (nature), knowledge (the planes), knowledge (religion), ride, spellcraft, spot, swim, use rope

Special abilities (by level)
1 SR 12
3 Greater dispel magic (SLA), 1x per AM level per day
5 Spell immunity (unbeatable spell resistance)
7 Spell resistance (SLA), 1x per 2 AM levels per day
9 Continuous anti-magic field
11 Protection from spells (SLA), 1x per 3 AM levels per day, 1 target only per use
13 Continuous greater arcane sight
15 Mage's disjunction (SLA), 1x per 4 AM levels per day
17 Disruption (see below)
19 Nova (see below), 1x per 5 AM levels per day
20 NOTHING, but note uses per day above

The effective caster level for all abilities is equal to the AM's level. No ability score bonus applies to saves. Effects that boost caster level do not apply to the AM's effective caster level. The Anti-Mage's spell-like abilities come from pure anti-magical energy. Dispel magic, anti-magic fields, mage's disjunction and the like do not affect them.

Spell Resistance, Spell Immunity: An AM cannot disable his spell resistance nor spell immunity. At any given time there is a 50% chance that a magic item or spell used by an AM simply won't work. An AM with spell immunity cannot cast any spells nor use any magic items. He may make use of magical effects provided by others, provided that his abilities do not negate them. The AM's abilities do not extend inside him; potions function normally.

Disruption: All spells cast within a 30' radius of the AM automatically result in a mishap (see scroll mishaps). Spells that fail for another reason are not affected.

Nova: Burst effect. All magical effects, magic items, etc. within a 1 mile radius of the AM are negated as if hit by a successful greater dispel magic. Magic not affected by greater dispel magic is not affected. Magical barriers not affected may protect other objects from the burst. As with greater dispel magic, magic items and many permanent effects are restored after 10 minutes.

Flame on!
Thakowsaizmu
07-17-07, 03:14 AM Looks interesting. It may be a petter PrC though. That way there is a good reason for joining said class (or even guild or guilds). You could also have different classes for anti-Arcane and anti-Divine casting. Anywho, just a thought.
Rhialto
07-17-07, 06:51 AM dual class fighter/wizard with specialism in abjuration magic.
Thakowsaizmu
07-17-07, 05:02 PM I don't think a multiclasses fighter/wizard is exactly what Nathreet is looking for. I mean, it kind of defeats the point of being an anti-mage if you have access to spells and spellbooks and all that happy stuff.
o_b_livion
07-17-07, 05:31 PM They already have a PrC for this kind of blah, moving on...
Rhialto
07-17-07, 05:50 PM I don't think a multiclasses fighter/wizard is exactly what Nathreet is looking for. I mean, it kind of defeats the point of being an anti-mage if you have access to spells and spellbooks and all that happy stuff.

So how else is this guy who HAS NEVER STUDIED MAGIC throwing around these anti-magic feats? I guess he is just so good with his sword that he can generate an anti-magic field with it?
Nathreet
07-17-07, 09:30 PM So how else is this guy who HAS NEVER STUDIED MAGIC throwing around these anti-magic feats? I guess he is just so good with his sword that he can generate an anti-magic field with it?

1. They aren't magic. See description.
2. He has studied magic. Just not the typical way. Check his skill list. Why did I pick those specific knowledge skills? <cough> wizards, extraplanar creatures, druids, clerics <cough> <cough>

An anti-mage is intimately familar with the way magic works (in theory, anyway), yet he instead chooses to apply his studies to combating it. If it makes you feel better I could make int his main stat.

And if you're going to mention an existing PrC, describe it or at least say what it is. Otherwise I'll assume that you're full of B.S. and your "PrC" isn't much different from a fighter/wizard.

PrC Version: For one, I'm too lazy to think up pre-reqs, at least until it seems like people might actually want to try it out (PrC or not). I tried to keep the description as basic as possible to test the waters first. Another reason is that this kind of Anti-Mage, like a wizard, seems more like a life-long pursuit. His abilities likewise scale similarily, so multi-classing would be painful for him. And yeah, PrCing would be forced multi-classing since the AM can't really build on other classes. Maybe a fighter, but that's a bit of a stretch. A druid is closer to a fighter than he is. But if you know how a PrC could work cleanly then I'd like to hear it.

Ok, so far I've offended all opposition and support :D.
Rhialto
07-18-07, 04:35 AM I didn't mention any prestige class. Everything I mentioned is completely within the SRD.

Maybe I'm just naive, but flavour-wise, a warrior throwing around anti-magic spell-like abilities isn't all that different from the dual class I mentioned earlier. This class seems to be filling a gap that is already adequately covered by existing rules.

Also, from a mechanics PoV, spell immunity is just bad. What happens whe the mage with a "beats all spell resistacne" feat meets up with this guy? I'd make it a SR that scales with class level, if you insist on going ahead with this class concept.

Of course, it also nerfs the character at higher levels, as almost every class is highly dependant on magical items (which now have a 50% chance to fail for him) at that point.
Kursk
07-18-07, 02:17 PM Easier to give a straight Fighter good SR and higher will saves. He loses it if taking a class with spell ability.
stargate525
07-18-07, 03:54 PM Am I the only one who sees complete spell immunity as a tad powerful for second level?

Seriously, wizard X/ Anti-mage 2. I win. As long as you don't wade forward, nothing can touch you except archers.
Kursk
07-18-07, 03:56 PM Am I the only one who sees complete spell immunity as a tad powerful for second level?

Seriously, wizard X/ Anti-mage 2. I win. As long as you don't wade forward, nothing can touch you except archers.

That's why just use SR that scales by level that works out to ~50% resistance against equal level caster.
Nathreet
07-19-07, 04:04 PM Am I the only one who sees complete spell immunity as a tad powerful for second level?

Seriously, wizard X/ Anti-mage 2. I win. As long as you don't wade forward, nothing can touch you except archers.

Wth are you talking about? He gets spell immunity at level 5. It can't be turned off (i.e., for healing) and it completely negates his ability to use magic items and spells, except potions & elixers. So you get commoner X / Anti-mage 5 from the above build. That's overpowered?? Spell immunity doesn't make him invincible to casters, either. Some spells don't allow spell resistance, or the wizard could attack the AM indirectly.

He gets his anti-magic abilities roughly 2 levels before even a pure wizard or abjurer could. Nevermind a weak, useless multi-classed wizard.

Honestly, this thread might as well be empty. Read the original post before replying, or heck at least skim it quickly.
Tomkin
07-20-07, 08:02 PM So what we have is something that absolutely KILLS mages and is horrible against everything else.

So magical encounters are far too easy (unbeatable SR? Even GODS can't magic away that puny 5th-level guy?) and non-magical encounters will be far more difficult (an anti-mage can't pull his weight in single combat compared to, say, a rogue or fighter). I'd never in a lifetime play something so hit-or-miss for twenty levels. That's why this stuff is better dealt with through feats (like those ones in Complete Arcane). If you're dead-set on making one (though I doubt any PC would want to play it), then it would be better as a 5- or 7-level PrC, at most. Something so specialized isn't worth 10 levels, let alone 20.

In fact, this seems a little too strange... you don't have a party of all mages that you want to spring this on and say "look, the boards said it was balanced!" or anything, do you? :P
Nathreet
07-28-07, 06:33 PM Deities: Their magic typically isn't affected by things like an anti-magic field. If it were, a wizard could putup an anti-magic field, etc. and run into the same issues.

Non-magical enemies: He can still fight okay. Heck, as well as an unbuffed cleric anyway. Especially since his opponent will likely end up unbuffed. And anyway, magic is as common as water in DnD. That's like saying, "I don't want to be a warrior, what if I never face anything affected by physical damage?"

PrC: See previous comments. Plus you can always multi-class.

A party of wizards can still beat him. There are plenty of indirect ways to use magic on him, as I mentioned. Anyway a party of wizards has plenty of other weaknesses, which is why most groups aren't 100% wizards.
Tomkin
07-28-07, 10:44 PM Deities: Their magic typically isn't affected by things like an anti-magic field. If it were, a wizard could putup an anti-magic field, etc. and run into the same issues.
I didn't say antimagic field. I was talking about his unbeatable spell resistance, which I don't believe gods can bypass.

Non-magical enemies: He can still fight okay. Heck, as well as an unbuffed cleric anyway. Especially since his opponent will likely end up unbuffed. And anyway, magic is as common as water in DnD. That's like saying, "I don't want to be a warrior, what if I never face anything affected by physical damage?"
But you realize that although his enemies will be unbuffed, he can NEVER be buffed. Meaning against most combat-oriented monsters (who have little reliance on magic), he will fight worse than an unbuffed cleric (who probably still has magic items, etc.) And guess what? That cleric who isn't buffing himself has either offensive spells or healing prepared in those slots, which will make him a much better fighter.

PrC: See previous comments. Plus you can always multi-class.
It makes no sense to me that something this narrow is a base class. The point of PrC's is to encapsulate things that are too narrow for base classes. If you can't think up prerequisites or better ability-scaling, that does not make it any more legitimate as a base class. "I'm lazy" is not a valid excuse.

A party of wizards can still beat him. There are plenty of indirect ways to use magic on him, as I mentioned. Anyway a party of wizards has plenty of other weaknesses, which is why most groups aren't 100% wizards.
Not at early levels before the mages get their big spells. And you never know, I heard of one guy on these boards (forget his name) who did an all-bard campaign.

OK, back to the point I'm trying to make: the anti-mage's power varies hugely based on the encounter. He is overpowering against magical encounters and quite underwhelming against non-magical ones. The other base classes do not jump around so hugely in power - yes they have strengths and weaknesses, but for example, a rogue is more effective against his greatest weakness (constructs, undead, and plants) than an anti-mage is against a non-magical enemy.
Nathreet
07-29-07, 02:23 AM Party of low level wizards example: Grease, fog. There are a hundred others. Plenty of spells aren't affected by spell resistance.

As a pRC you could simply move the lower level abilities to higher levels, without changing the character-level position of the high level abilities. So if the BAB pre-req was +5, the level 6 stuff would go on level 1, etc. But conceptually no other class, feat, etc. really fits for pre-reqs. Not to mention the hundreds of more specialized base classes out there. Kinda like, "We don't really need a ninja. I can make one out of a rogue." The anti-mage doesn't even really have anything that other classes can match him well. There are sucky ways that also grant spellcasting, but that's about it. Even those kinda-sorta-okay-not-really-at-all do it.

Surprising as this may be, this guy is handy for dealing with the many, many magical encounters, not so much for basic combat. Kinda like a rogue handles traps, etc. He can handle himself in basic combat, heck with his armor he's better than a bard at that, but basic combat is not what he's supposed to excel at.

He is far from superpowered against these magic encounters, as there is a 1,001 ways to get around spell resistance at lower levels, and 1,001 other tricks to get around the anti-magic field, etc. at higher levels. And they don't have to be spells, they can be SLA's. I was half-expecting someone to post, "He's weak even against casters. I can make a wizard that can still beat him."

So, in short, he's handy against magic, which is in almost every dnd encounter. But not uber. And he can fight against purely physical opponents and, while somewhat weak against them, still do okay. It's hardly as stratified as you make it out to be.

Anyway if there aren't any further posts that pertain to the actual anti-mage as posted, I'll just stop responding to this thread and let it die. There's no point in writing rules for the class if people just make stuff up about him in place of those rules (or in place of the core rules, even), just so they can gripe.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nathreet 07-17-07, 01:55 AM	ANTI-MAGE Concept: A warrior trained to combat magic. He may despise magic, or he may respect or even admire it as a force that must be dealt with carefully. Hit Die: D6 Saves: Good fort, bad ref, good will BAB: medium weapon and armor proficiencies: all simple weapons, light hammers, warhammers, longbows, shortbows, bolas, nets, light and medium armor, shields (including tower shields). skill points per level: 4 skills: climb, craft, decipher script, handle animal, heal, intimidate, jump, knowledge (arcana), knowledge (nature), knowledge (the planes), knowledge (religion), ride, spellcraft, spot, swim, use rope Special abilities (by level) 1 SR 12 3 Greater dispel magic (SLA), 1x per AM level per day 5 Spell immunity (unbeatable spell resistance) 7 Spell resistance (SLA), 1x per 2 AM levels per day 9 Continuous anti-magic field 11 Protection from spells (SLA), 1x per 3 AM levels per day, 1 target only per use 13 Continuous greater arcane sight 15 Mage's disjunction (SLA), 1x per 4 AM levels per day 17 Disruption (see below) 19 Nova (see below), 1x per 5 AM levels per day 20 NOTHING, but note uses per day above The effective caster level for all abilities is equal to the AM's level. No ability score bonus applies to saves. Effects that boost caster level do not apply to the AM's effective caster level. The Anti-Mage's spell-like abilities come from pure anti-magical energy. Dispel magic, anti-magic fields, mage's disjunction and the like do not affect them. Spell Resistance, Spell Immunity: An AM cannot disable his spell resistance nor spell immunity. At any given time there is a 50% chance that a magic item or spell used by an AM simply won't work. An AM with spell immunity cannot cast any spells nor use any magic items. He may make use of magical effects provided by others, provided that his abilities do not negate them. The AM's abilities do not extend inside him; potions function normally. Disruption: All spells cast within a 30' radius of the AM automatically result in a mishap (see scroll mishaps). Spells that fail for another reason are not affected. Nova: Burst effect. All magical effects, magic items, etc. within a 1 mile radius of the AM are negated as if hit by a successful greater dispel magic. Magic not affected by greater dispel magic is not affected. Magical barriers not affected may protect other objects from the burst. As with greater dispel magic, magic items and many permanent effects are restored after 10 minutes. Flame on!
Thakowsaizmu 07-17-07, 03:14 AM	Looks interesting. It may be a petter PrC though. That way there is a good reason for joining said class (or even guild or guilds). You could also have different classes for anti-Arcane and anti-Divine casting. Anywho, just a thought.
Rhialto 07-17-07, 06:51 AM	dual class fighter/wizard with specialism in abjuration magic.
Thakowsaizmu 07-17-07, 05:02 PM	I don't think a multiclasses fighter/wizard is exactly what Nathreet is looking for. I mean, it kind of defeats the point of being an anti-mage if you have access to spells and spellbooks and all that happy stuff.
o_b_livion 07-17-07, 05:31 PM	They already have a PrC for this kind of blah, moving on...
Rhialto 07-17-07, 05:50 PM	I don't think a multiclasses fighter/wizard is exactly what Nathreet is looking for. I mean, it kind of defeats the point of being an anti-mage if you have access to spells and spellbooks and all that happy stuff. So how else is this guy who HAS NEVER STUDIED MAGIC throwing around these anti-magic feats? I guess he is just so good with his sword that he can generate an anti-magic field with it?
Nathreet 07-17-07, 09:30 PM	So how else is this guy who HAS NEVER STUDIED MAGIC throwing around these anti-magic feats? I guess he is just so good with his sword that he can generate an anti-magic field with it? 1. They aren't magic. See description. 2. He has studied magic. Just not the typical way. Check his skill list. Why did I pick those specific knowledge skills? <cough> wizards, extraplanar creatures, druids, clerics <cough> <cough> An anti-mage is intimately familar with the way magic works (in theory, anyway), yet he instead chooses to apply his studies to combating it. If it makes you feel better I could make int his main stat. And if you're going to mention an existing PrC, describe it or at least say what it is. Otherwise I'll assume that you're full of B.S. and your "PrC" isn't much different from a fighter/wizard. PrC Version: For one, I'm too lazy to think up pre-reqs, at least until it seems like people might actually want to try it out (PrC or not). I tried to keep the description as basic as possible to test the waters first. Another reason is that this kind of Anti-Mage, like a wizard, seems more like a life-long pursuit. His abilities likewise scale similarily, so multi-classing would be painful for him. And yeah, PrCing would be forced multi-classing since the AM can't really build on other classes. Maybe a fighter, but that's a bit of a stretch. A druid is closer to a fighter than he is. But if you know how a PrC could work cleanly then I'd like to hear it. Ok, so far I've offended all opposition and support :D.
Rhialto 07-18-07, 04:35 AM	I didn't mention any prestige class. Everything I mentioned is completely within the SRD. Maybe I'm just naive, but flavour-wise, a warrior throwing around anti-magic spell-like abilities isn't all that different from the dual class I mentioned earlier. This class seems to be filling a gap that is already adequately covered by existing rules. Also, from a mechanics PoV, spell immunity is just bad. What happens whe the mage with a "beats all spell resistacne" feat meets up with this guy? I'd make it a SR that scales with class level, if you insist on going ahead with this class concept. Of course, it also nerfs the character at higher levels, as almost every class is highly dependant on magical items (which now have a 50% chance to fail for him) at that point.
Kursk 07-18-07, 02:17 PM	Easier to give a straight Fighter good SR and higher will saves. He loses it if taking a class with spell ability.
stargate525 07-18-07, 03:54 PM	Am I the only one who sees complete spell immunity as a tad powerful for second level? Seriously, wizard X/ Anti-mage 2. I win. As long as you don't wade forward, nothing can touch you except archers.
Kursk 07-18-07, 03:56 PM	Am I the only one who sees complete spell immunity as a tad powerful for second level? Seriously, wizard X/ Anti-mage 2. I win. As long as you don't wade forward, nothing can touch you except archers. That's why just use SR that scales by level that works out to ~50% resistance against equal level caster.
Nathreet 07-19-07, 04:04 PM	Am I the only one who sees complete spell immunity as a tad powerful for second level? Seriously, wizard X/ Anti-mage 2. I win. As long as you don't wade forward, nothing can touch you except archers. Wth are you talking about? He gets spell immunity at level 5. It can't be turned off (i.e., for healing) and it completely negates his ability to use magic items and spells, except potions & elixers. So you get commoner X / Anti-mage 5 from the above build. That's overpowered?? Spell immunity doesn't make him invincible to casters, either. Some spells don't allow spell resistance, or the wizard could attack the AM indirectly. He gets his anti-magic abilities roughly 2 levels before even a pure wizard or abjurer could. Nevermind a weak, useless multi-classed wizard. Honestly, this thread might as well be empty. Read the original post before replying, or heck at least skim it quickly.
Tomkin 07-20-07, 08:02 PM	So what we have is something that absolutely KILLS mages and is horrible against everything else. So magical encounters are far too easy (unbeatable SR? Even GODS can't magic away that puny 5th-level guy?) and non-magical encounters will be far more difficult (an anti-mage can't pull his weight in single combat compared to, say, a rogue or fighter). I'd never in a lifetime play something so hit-or-miss for twenty levels. That's why this stuff is better dealt with through feats (like those ones in Complete Arcane). If you're dead-set on making one (though I doubt any PC would want to play it), then it would be better as a 5- or 7-level PrC, at most. Something so specialized isn't worth 10 levels, let alone 20. In fact, this seems a little too strange... you don't have a party of all mages that you want to spring this on and say "look, the boards said it was balanced!" or anything, do you? :P
Nathreet 07-28-07, 06:33 PM	Deities: Their magic typically isn't affected by things like an anti-magic field. If it were, a wizard could putup an anti-magic field, etc. and run into the same issues. Non-magical enemies: He can still fight okay. Heck, as well as an unbuffed cleric anyway. Especially since his opponent will likely end up unbuffed. And anyway, magic is as common as water in DnD. That's like saying, "I don't want to be a warrior, what if I never face anything affected by physical damage?" PrC: See previous comments. Plus you can always multi-class. A party of wizards can still beat him. There are plenty of indirect ways to use magic on him, as I mentioned. Anyway a party of wizards has plenty of other weaknesses, which is why most groups aren't 100% wizards.
Tomkin 07-28-07, 10:44 PM	Deities: Their magic typically isn't affected by things like an anti-magic field. If it were, a wizard could putup an anti-magic field, etc. and run into the same issues. I didn't say antimagic field. I was talking about his unbeatable spell resistance, which I don't believe gods can bypass. Non-magical enemies: He can still fight okay. Heck, as well as an unbuffed cleric anyway. Especially since his opponent will likely end up unbuffed. And anyway, magic is as common as water in DnD. That's like saying, "I don't want to be a warrior, what if I never face anything affected by physical damage?" But you realize that although his enemies will be unbuffed, he can NEVER be buffed. Meaning against most combat-oriented monsters (who have little reliance on magic), he will fight worse than an unbuffed cleric (who probably still has magic items, etc.) And guess what? That cleric who isn't buffing himself has either offensive spells or healing prepared in those slots, which will make him a much better fighter. PrC: See previous comments. Plus you can always multi-class. It makes no sense to me that something this narrow is a base class. The point of PrC's is to encapsulate things that are too narrow for base classes. If you can't think up prerequisites or better ability-scaling, that does not make it any more legitimate as a base class. "I'm lazy" is not a valid excuse. A party of wizards can still beat him. There are plenty of indirect ways to use magic on him, as I mentioned. Anyway a party of wizards has plenty of other weaknesses, which is why most groups aren't 100% wizards. Not at early levels before the mages get their big spells. And you never know, I heard of one guy on these boards (forget his name) who did an all-bard campaign. OK, back to the point I'm trying to make: the anti-mage's power varies hugely based on the encounter. He is overpowering against magical encounters and quite underwhelming against non-magical ones. The other base classes do not jump around so hugely in power - yes they have strengths and weaknesses, but for example, a rogue is more effective against his greatest weakness (constructs, undead, and plants) than an anti-mage is against a non-magical enemy.
Nathreet 07-29-07, 02:23 AM	Party of low level wizards example: Grease, fog. There are a hundred others. Plenty of spells aren't affected by spell resistance. As a pRC you could simply move the lower level abilities to higher levels, without changing the character-level position of the high level abilities. So if the BAB pre-req was +5, the level 6 stuff would go on level 1, etc. But conceptually no other class, feat, etc. really fits for pre-reqs. Not to mention the hundreds of more specialized base classes out there. Kinda like, "We don't really need a ninja. I can make one out of a rogue." The anti-mage doesn't even really have anything that other classes can match him well. There are sucky ways that also grant spellcasting, but that's about it. Even those kinda-sorta-okay-not-really-at-all do it. Surprising as this may be, this guy is handy for dealing with the many, many magical encounters, not so much for basic combat. Kinda like a rogue handles traps, etc. He can handle himself in basic combat, heck with his armor he's better than a bard at that, but basic combat is not what he's supposed to excel at. He is far from superpowered against these magic encounters, as there is a 1,001 ways to get around spell resistance at lower levels, and 1,001 other tricks to get around the anti-magic field, etc. at higher levels. And they don't have to be spells, they can be SLA's. I was half-expecting someone to post, "He's weak even against casters. I can make a wizard that can still beat him." So, in short, he's handy against magic, which is in almost every dnd encounter. But not uber. And he can fight against purely physical opponents and, while somewhat weak against them, still do okay. It's hardly as stratified as you make it out to be. Anyway if there aren't any further posts that pertain to the actual anti-mage as posted, I'll just stop responding to this thread and let it die. There's no point in writing rules for the class if people just make stuff up about him in place of those rules (or in place of the core rules, even), just so they can gripe.