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Post/Author/DateTime Post
Peldraco_of_the_Shadows
11-19-04, 08:47 PM I have a problem. I just started a new campaign. Two of my players are elves, and the other is a gnome. So, the elves dislike the gnome. And this is where the problem is. I know, I should just make him make a new character, but he seems to like playing gnomes. So, what should I do?
Neerie
11-19-04, 08:51 PM Have them play an adventure where the gnome is the one who saves the elves' butt, use it as an advantage to push roleplay forward.
obrysii
11-19-04, 08:52 PM Yeah. Once the Elves have gotten their butts saved by the gnomes once or twice, they'll like him.
Peldraco_of_the_Shadows
11-19-04, 08:56 PM But, gnomes don't like elves in the first place, and also they're in the middle of an adventure right now.
UltimateReality
11-19-04, 08:57 PM I have a problem. I just started a new campaign. Two of my players are elves, and the other is a gnome. So, the elves dislike the gnome. And this is where the problem is. I know, I should just make him make a new character, but he seems to like playing gnomes. So, what should I do?

...Do the elven characters dislike the gnome? Or do the elven characters' players dislike the gnome? Or do they dislike the gnome's player?

:confused: More info plz kthx

Edit: Oh yeah, characters are more than their racial stereotypes too...sometimes players forget that. You might want to point that out to them. Are the elves' players being really obnoxious about not liking the gnome or something? Are they doing stuff in-game, or whining out of game?
Encard
11-19-04, 09:09 PM Do you mean they actually dislike the gnome, or they want to kill the gnome? If it's the first, I don't see that you have such a big issue on your hands. It's a nice roleplaying opportunity, and assuming they're mature about it, things will probably be interesting. If they're plotting to kill him, you should take your players aside and find out why. If it's something along the lines of "That's how my character would act! 'Cause he, like, hates gnomes! Yeah!" then tell them, reasonably politely, that there's more ways to express it than killing the fellow, and that you won't tolerate blatantly disruptive characters. That is, of course, assuming you don't want them to kill the gnome arbitrarily, and that there isn't some deeper RP reason for it (you haven't really given us any context for the situation).
Peldraco_of_the_Shadows
11-19-04, 09:17 PM I have told them that they shouldn't just dislike him because of the book says to. And, they have once or twice tried to kill him. And, when I ask why, they say because Elves don't like gnomes. They haven't given me much reason other than "That's what it says in the books!" And i sure hope that they they're just trying to RolePlay and it's not that they have a problem with the player, as they are all very good friends of mine. And the gnome player gets very upset about this.

**-EDIT-**
And, the gnome player seems to be willing to befriend the elves, it is they who are not willing. And one time, while the poor little gnome was being attacked by a couple of orcs, one of the elves, a sorcerer, aided them by casting Ray Of Frost on the poor fellow.
Bringslite
11-19-04, 09:51 PM It does not say that Elves hate Gnomes in the PHB. In fact it says that they are generally pleasant and gracious to they other races (PHB pg. 15 under Relations). Your players are very misguided. Especially if they aid orcs in combat. That is an evil act against a party member. I feel sorry for you. Not everyone can have great players like mine. :D
UltimateReality
11-19-04, 09:51 PM I have told them that they shouldn't just dislike him because of the book says to. And, they have once or twice tried to kill him. And, when I ask why, they say because Elves don't like gnomes. They haven't given me much reason other than "That's what it says in the books!" And i sure hope that they they're just trying to RolePlay and it's not that they have a problem with the player, as they are all very good friends of mine. And the gnome player gets very upset about this.

**-EDIT-**
And, the gnome player seems to be willing to befriend the elves, it is they who are not willing. And one time, while the poor little gnome was being attacked by a couple of orcs, one of the elves, a sorcerer, aided them by casting Ray Of Frost on the poor fellow.

*wince* Ah, the infamous, The-books-said-so! Syndrome. I would point out to these players that: a) you are the DM and can change "what the books say" by houserules, and b) think about how they'd feel if they were on the receiving end. Offhand, I'm pretty sure dwarves and orcs aren't fond of elves. Now, I don't actually advocate playing one who goes after them "because they're elves and we always hate elves!!!" because that would just reinforce their ideas.

What I might do is point out to everyone that with only three people in the party, they need to get along -- not be in-fighting and trying to kill each other. In fact, I would houserule it that all characters are good friends (they can write exact circumstances into their backgrounds, if they even bother with such things) and have been adventuring for some time, or are co-workers, friends since childhood, etc. If you want to write an adventure or side-part where it's glaringly obvious they all need the talents of each other to survive and succeed, that might work too. What are their levels and classes?

Oh, and make sure your NPCs and BBEGs break all the stereotypes too. Make sure you're not unconsciously reinforcing their patterns.
Wolf72
11-19-04, 09:54 PM um ... elves and gnomes do not get along? What book did I miss this in? ... I don't seem to recall there ever being any dislike ... maybe a bit of annoyance but nothing to invoke something as severe as killing each other.

it's in a book? ... then show me (err you) the book, don't quote it ... I (you) want to read it with my own beedy little eyes.
Peldraco_of_the_Shadows
11-19-04, 09:57 PM Thanks, guys. I did tell them that with only three people they will need to get along, and they just seemed to take it in and continue with their evil ways. But, that is a good idea, i will make my next adventure something where they need all of their talents to stay alive.
malykoth
11-19-04, 09:59 PM I have told them that they shouldn't just dislike him because of the book says to. And, they have once or twice tried to kill him. And, when I ask why, they say because Elves don't like gnomes. They haven't given me much reason other than "That's what it says in the books!" And i sure hope that they they're just trying to RolePlay and it's not that they have a problem with the player, as they are all very good friends of mine. And the gnome player gets very upset about this.

**-EDIT-**
And, the gnome player seems to be willing to befriend the elves, it is they who are not willing. And one time, while the poor little gnome was being attacked by a couple of orcs, one of the elves, a sorcerer, aided them by casting Ray Of Frost on the poor fellow.
:rolleyes:
"That's what is says in the books", eh? Well, that sounds pretty iron-clad. I guess they have you there. Did they tell you about the part where it says "in the books" that you're supposed to give them artifacts every even-numbered level? Or grant them a free template (of any level adjustment) anytime they want because "that's what is says in the books"? Dude...take charge and tell them to knock it off. YOU are the boss (at least in this aspect/case), get some control of your game! ;)
"In the books"...sheesh! I have got to try that excuse in my game! It can't possibly fail!
malykoth
11-19-04, 10:10 PM Oh! Here's an idea! Tell the gnome player that it says "in the books" that gnomes can dominate (as the spell) any number of elves as a free action, with no save allowed, anytime they want! At least that would explain why the elves hate the gnomes! See if the elf boys still want to subscribe to "the book" after that. :D
Bringslite
11-19-04, 10:10 PM Yeah, could you tell me what book that little gem is in? That elves hate gnomes and should think it's okay to aid orcs in combat vs. them? I mean if they are not evil elves they should be.
malykoth
11-19-04, 10:33 PM it's in a book? ... then show me (err you) the book, don't quote it ... I (you) want to read it with my own beedy little eyes.
Even if it is in a book, this behavior should be nipped as soon as possible. It's just weak, man! Only in games where it's clearly understood at the beginning that the PC's are allowed to be at odds with each other should this circumstance ever come up (not that such a game could possibly last long).
EatFlan
11-20-04, 12:43 AM Don't start a thread w/such a redonkulous title anymore. Just SAY what you want to say in the title, not some ...???!?!?! >>>.....?!??>>..>??!>>. horse crap.
ThatDarnCat
11-20-04, 01:14 AM And, when I ask why, they say because Elves don't like gnomes. They haven't given me much reason other than "That's what it says in the books!"Purrhaps you should look in their book. They might have crossed out the original text and crayoned in the statement about elves hating gnomes...
A Flying Buddha
11-20-04, 01:31 AM Is this "book" they refer to written in magic marker on loose-leaf?

Take the bloody books from them, tell them to play nice, then wave around the beating stick in a pointed manner.

But seriously, I think the first thing you should do is tell them if they think the PHB says elves hate gnomes to the point of gnomicide, that they're illiterate. :D

And do please put the point of your post in the title. ie "Gnomicide!" or "Gnome bashing by pointy-eared illiterates! HELP!"
In fact, I would have been even more inclined to read this at 1 am if it was called "Gnomicide: Life on the Streets."
Neerie
11-20-04, 08:39 AM Even if there was a book that said that elves dislike or even hate every gnomes... I don't like my neighbor or I could hage his dog, but I'm not gonna go out there and try to kill them! Sheesh!
Wolf72
11-20-04, 11:19 AM Even if it is in a book, this behavior should be nipped as soon as possible. It's just weak, man! Only in games where it's clearly understood at the beginning that the PC's are allowed to be at odds with each other should this circumstance ever come up (not that such a game could possibly last long).

yeah, that's part 2! :D

off the top of my head I can think of only one series of books (I'm sure there's more) that has evil gnomes ... the Shanarra series.

[edit: good grief ... if he comes back and replies "well ... they're playing dark elves ..." I think we should all kick him in the shin]
deadDMwalking
11-20-04, 11:31 AM Goodness, I hope they aren't Drow. That is why they call them drow, not elves generally.

Anyway, in a typical world gnomes and elves are among the best friends. Gnomes have a strong connection to nature, and elves share that same bond. Gnomes are smaller and more "shy", but they get along very well with elves. They also get along well with dwarves. Gnomes are probably the best liked race. They're small like halflings, so they have that in common.

Really, it is only evil races (despoilers of the forest) that don't like the gnomes. And elves have an undying emnity for those races.

Now, is your player playing a variant gnome? Like a technomancer? If gnomes are high tech in your world, I could see the elves not liking them. However, if you're playing in a core world, gnomes and elves will get along just fine.

You know what would be fun? Have a group of 8-10 gnomes ride in on dogs with lances and kill the elves. Have them hear tell that these elves were evil, aiding orcs, and had a gnome prisoner. It is a reasonable reaction to the way the game has been going. Maybe they'll learn a lesson.
On_the_wings_of_TPK
11-20-04, 01:41 PM It's time to take control. Inform your two players that are not allowed to play their characters until they show you exactly were they found that tripe about elves hating gnomes. You may wish to point out the relationship that elves typically have with orcs. Then reward the gnome with something like 1000xp for being literate another 1000xp for playing a race that generally gets along well with most other races. Then another 1000xp for being pateint and putting up with this crap. Then award him another 1000xp for not being a pain in the DMG!
FriendoftheDork
11-20-04, 03:11 PM If the elves were Drow and the Gnome a Svirfneblin I could see why they want to kill him, and I would even aplaud them for it. Too often players accept PCs that they never would have had if they were NPCs.

If this is not the case, however, your players are either incredible misguided or they just don't like the other player and are just harassing him. Which in case I wouldn't want to play with them at all.

Simply tell them that elves don't dislike gnomes any more than they dislike dwarves, on the contrary. Save their hatred for orcs, their #1 racial enemy.
Wolf72
11-20-04, 04:12 PM I don't have a problem with Drow v Svirfneblin ...

I have a problem with someone sprouting a situation, but minus significant facts (and us (over) reacting to it ... if so, he done good at trolling)
malykoth
11-20-04, 05:15 PM I have a problem with someone sprouting a situation, but minus significant facts (and us (over) reacting to it ... if so, he done good at trolling)
hmm...good point...is that flaming troll I smell?
ILL34GL3
11-21-04, 11:58 PM You guys should quit roleplaying and play a competitive game like D&D miniatures or MTG. You obviously do not possess the social and cooperative skills required to play a roleplaying game. D&D is not a good game for competitiveness.
Maniacal_Cackle
11-22-04, 12:22 AM Even if there was a book that said that elves dislike or even hate every gnomes... I don't like my neighbor or I could hage his dog, but I'm not gonna go out there and try to kill them! Sheesh!

Give the players this (hopefully) easy mental task: You are from the South. Southerners hate African-Americans (a horribly gross overgeneralization, simply to demonstrate a point.) Do you have to hate African-Americans too? No. Even if you do hate them, are you going to kill all of them that you can, even if you think you can get away with it? No. If you do, you will be evil.

Tell them, bottom line: your character does not just fit into some mould, he is as unique as you or me. And hate does != (does not equal) a desire to kill.
TommyBlack
11-22-04, 12:55 AM I don't see why you have to step in at all. Their explanation was lame, but they should be able to decide if their characters hate gnomes. Just let the conflict play out however they want it to, and if you don't like the conflict for whatever reason, set up a situation where there's room for character growth.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Peldraco_of_the_Shadows 11-19-04, 08:47 PM	I have a problem. I just started a new campaign. Two of my players are elves, and the other is a gnome. So, the elves dislike the gnome. And this is where the problem is. I know, I should just make him make a new character, but he seems to like playing gnomes. So, what should I do?
Neerie 11-19-04, 08:51 PM	Have them play an adventure where the gnome is the one who saves the elves' butt, use it as an advantage to push roleplay forward.
obrysii 11-19-04, 08:52 PM	Yeah. Once the Elves have gotten their butts saved by the gnomes once or twice, they'll like him.
Peldraco_of_the_Shadows 11-19-04, 08:56 PM	But, gnomes don't like elves in the first place, and also they're in the middle of an adventure right now.
UltimateReality 11-19-04, 08:57 PM	I have a problem. I just started a new campaign. Two of my players are elves, and the other is a gnome. So, the elves dislike the gnome. And this is where the problem is. I know, I should just make him make a new character, but he seems to like playing gnomes. So, what should I do? ...Do the elven characters dislike the gnome? Or do the elven characters' players dislike the gnome? Or do they dislike the gnome's player? :confused: More info plz kthx Edit: Oh yeah, characters are more than their racial stereotypes too...sometimes players forget that. You might want to point that out to them. Are the elves' players being really obnoxious about not liking the gnome or something? Are they doing stuff in-game, or whining out of game?
Encard 11-19-04, 09:09 PM	Do you mean they actually dislike the gnome, or they want to kill the gnome? If it's the first, I don't see that you have such a big issue on your hands. It's a nice roleplaying opportunity, and assuming they're mature about it, things will probably be interesting. If they're plotting to kill him, you should take your players aside and find out why. If it's something along the lines of "That's how my character would act! 'Cause he, like, hates gnomes! Yeah!" then tell them, reasonably politely, that there's more ways to express it than killing the fellow, and that you won't tolerate blatantly disruptive characters. That is, of course, assuming you don't want them to kill the gnome arbitrarily, and that there isn't some deeper RP reason for it (you haven't really given us any context for the situation).
Peldraco_of_the_Shadows 11-19-04, 09:17 PM	I have told them that they shouldn't just dislike him because of the book says to. And, they have once or twice tried to kill him. And, when I ask why, they say because Elves don't like gnomes. They haven't given me much reason other than "That's what it says in the books!" And i sure hope that they they're just trying to RolePlay and it's not that they have a problem with the player, as they are all very good friends of mine. And the gnome player gets very upset about this. -EDIT- And, the gnome player seems to be willing to befriend the elves, it is they who are not willing. And one time, while the poor little gnome was being attacked by a couple of orcs, one of the elves, a sorcerer, aided them by casting Ray Of Frost on the poor fellow.
Bringslite 11-19-04, 09:51 PM	It does not say that Elves hate Gnomes in the PHB. In fact it says that they are generally pleasant and gracious to they other races (PHB pg. 15 under Relations). Your players are very misguided. Especially if they aid orcs in combat. That is an evil act against a party member. I feel sorry for you. Not everyone can have great players like mine. :D
UltimateReality 11-19-04, 09:51 PM	I have told them that they shouldn't just dislike him because of the book says to. And, they have once or twice tried to kill him. And, when I ask why, they say because Elves don't like gnomes. They haven't given me much reason other than "That's what it says in the books!" And i sure hope that they they're just trying to RolePlay and it's not that they have a problem with the player, as they are all very good friends of mine. And the gnome player gets very upset about this. -EDIT- And, the gnome player seems to be willing to befriend the elves, it is they who are not willing. And one time, while the poor little gnome was being attacked by a couple of orcs, one of the elves, a sorcerer, aided them by casting Ray Of Frost on the poor fellow. wince Ah, the infamous, The-books-said-so! Syndrome. I would point out to these players that: a) you are the DM and can change "what the books say" by houserules, and b) think about how they'd feel if they were on the receiving end. Offhand, I'm pretty sure dwarves and orcs aren't fond of elves. Now, I don't actually advocate playing one who goes after them "because they're elves and we always hate elves!!!" because that would just reinforce their ideas. What I might do is point out to everyone that with only three people in the party, they need to get along -- not be in-fighting and trying to kill each other. In fact, I would houserule it that all characters are good friends (they can write exact circumstances into their backgrounds, if they even bother with such things) and have been adventuring for some time, or are co-workers, friends since childhood, etc. If you want to write an adventure or side-part where it's glaringly obvious they all need the talents of each other to survive and succeed, that might work too. What are their levels and classes? Oh, and make sure your NPCs and BBEGs break all the stereotypes too. Make sure you're not unconsciously reinforcing their patterns.
Wolf72 11-19-04, 09:54 PM	um ... elves and gnomes do not get along? What book did I miss this in? ... I don't seem to recall there ever being any dislike ... maybe a bit of annoyance but nothing to invoke something as severe as killing each other. it's in a book? ... then show me (err you) the book, don't quote it ... I (you) want to read it with my own beedy little eyes.
Peldraco_of_the_Shadows 11-19-04, 09:57 PM	Thanks, guys. I did tell them that with only three people they will need to get along, and they just seemed to take it in and continue with their evil ways. But, that is a good idea, i will make my next adventure something where they need all of their talents to stay alive.
malykoth 11-19-04, 09:59 PM	I have told them that they shouldn't just dislike him because of the book says to. And, they have once or twice tried to kill him. And, when I ask why, they say because Elves don't like gnomes. They haven't given me much reason other than "That's what it says in the books!" And i sure hope that they they're just trying to RolePlay and it's not that they have a problem with the player, as they are all very good friends of mine. And the gnome player gets very upset about this. -EDIT- And, the gnome player seems to be willing to befriend the elves, it is they who are not willing. And one time, while the poor little gnome was being attacked by a couple of orcs, one of the elves, a sorcerer, aided them by casting Ray Of Frost on the poor fellow. :rolleyes: "That's what is says in the books", eh? Well, that sounds pretty iron-clad. I guess they have you there. Did they tell you about the part where it says "in the books" that you're supposed to give them artifacts every even-numbered level? Or grant them a free template (of any level adjustment) anytime they want because "that's what is says in the books"? Dude...take charge and tell them to knock it off. YOU are the boss (at least in this aspect/case), get some control of your game! ;) "In the books"...sheesh! I have got to try that excuse in my game! It can't possibly fail!
malykoth 11-19-04, 10:10 PM	Oh! Here's an idea! Tell the gnome player that it says "in the books" that gnomes can dominate (as the spell) any number of elves as a free action, with no save allowed, anytime they want! At least that would explain why the elves hate the gnomes! See if the elf boys still want to subscribe to "the book" after that. :D
Bringslite 11-19-04, 10:10 PM	Yeah, could you tell me what book that little gem is in? That elves hate gnomes and should think it's okay to aid orcs in combat vs. them? I mean if they are not evil elves they should be.
malykoth 11-19-04, 10:33 PM	it's in a book? ... then show me (err you) the book, don't quote it ... I (you) want to read it with my own beedy little eyes. Even if it is in a book, this behavior should be nipped as soon as possible. It's just weak, man! Only in games where it's clearly understood at the beginning that the PC's are allowed to be at odds with each other should this circumstance ever come up (not that such a game could possibly last long).
EatFlan 11-20-04, 12:43 AM	Don't start a thread w/such a redonkulous title anymore. Just SAY what you want to say in the title, not some ...???!?!?! >>>.....?!??>>..>??!>>. horse crap.
ThatDarnCat 11-20-04, 01:14 AM	And, when I ask why, they say because Elves don't like gnomes. They haven't given me much reason other than "That's what it says in the books!"Purrhaps you should look in their book. They might have crossed out the original text and crayoned in the statement about elves hating gnomes...
A Flying Buddha 11-20-04, 01:31 AM	Is this "book" they refer to written in magic marker on loose-leaf? Take the bloody books from them, tell them to play nice, then wave around the beating stick in a pointed manner. But seriously, I think the first thing you should do is tell them if they think the PHB says elves hate gnomes to the point of gnomicide, that they're illiterate. :D And do please put the point of your post in the title. ie "Gnomicide!" or "Gnome bashing by pointy-eared illiterates! HELP!" In fact, I would have been even more inclined to read this at 1 am if it was called "Gnomicide: Life on the Streets."
Neerie 11-20-04, 08:39 AM	Even if there was a book that said that elves dislike or even hate every gnomes... I don't like my neighbor or I could hage his dog, but I'm not gonna go out there and try to kill them! Sheesh!
Wolf72 11-20-04, 11:19 AM	Even if it is in a book, this behavior should be nipped as soon as possible. It's just weak, man! Only in games where it's clearly understood at the beginning that the PC's are allowed to be at odds with each other should this circumstance ever come up (not that such a game could possibly last long). yeah, that's part 2! :D off the top of my head I can think of only one series of books (I'm sure there's more) that has evil gnomes ... the Shanarra series. [edit: good grief ... if he comes back and replies "well ... they're playing dark elves ..." I think we should all kick him in the shin]
deadDMwalking 11-20-04, 11:31 AM	Goodness, I hope they aren't Drow. That is why they call them drow, not elves generally. Anyway, in a typical world gnomes and elves are among the best friends. Gnomes have a strong connection to nature, and elves share that same bond. Gnomes are smaller and more "shy", but they get along very well with elves. They also get along well with dwarves. Gnomes are probably the best liked race. They're small like halflings, so they have that in common. Really, it is only evil races (despoilers of the forest) that don't like the gnomes. And elves have an undying emnity for those races. Now, is your player playing a variant gnome? Like a technomancer? If gnomes are high tech in your world, I could see the elves not liking them. However, if you're playing in a core world, gnomes and elves will get along just fine. You know what would be fun? Have a group of 8-10 gnomes ride in on dogs with lances and kill the elves. Have them hear tell that these elves were evil, aiding orcs, and had a gnome prisoner. It is a reasonable reaction to the way the game has been going. Maybe they'll learn a lesson.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-20-04, 01:41 PM	It's time to take control. Inform your two players that are not allowed to play their characters until they show you exactly were they found that tripe about elves hating gnomes. You may wish to point out the relationship that elves typically have with orcs. Then reward the gnome with something like 1000xp for being literate another 1000xp for playing a race that generally gets along well with most other races. Then another 1000xp for being pateint and putting up with this crap. Then award him another 1000xp for not being a pain in the DMG!
FriendoftheDork 11-20-04, 03:11 PM	If the elves were Drow and the Gnome a Svirfneblin I could see why they want to kill him, and I would even aplaud them for it. Too often players accept PCs that they never would have had if they were NPCs. If this is not the case, however, your players are either incredible misguided or they just don't like the other player and are just harassing him. Which in case I wouldn't want to play with them at all. Simply tell them that elves don't dislike gnomes any more than they dislike dwarves, on the contrary. Save their hatred for orcs, their #1 racial enemy.
Wolf72 11-20-04, 04:12 PM	I don't have a problem with Drow v Svirfneblin ... I have a problem with someone sprouting a situation, but minus significant facts (and us (over) reacting to it ... if so, he done good at trolling)
malykoth 11-20-04, 05:15 PM	I have a problem with someone sprouting a situation, but minus significant facts (and us (over) reacting to it ... if so, he done good at trolling) hmm...good point...is that flaming troll I smell?
ILL34GL3 11-21-04, 11:58 PM	You guys should quit roleplaying and play a competitive game like D&D miniatures or MTG. You obviously do not possess the social and cooperative skills required to play a roleplaying game. D&D is not a good game for competitiveness.
Maniacal_Cackle 11-22-04, 12:22 AM	Even if there was a book that said that elves dislike or even hate every gnomes... I don't like my neighbor or I could hage his dog, but I'm not gonna go out there and try to kill them! Sheesh! Give the players this (hopefully) easy mental task: You are from the South. Southerners hate African-Americans (a horribly gross overgeneralization, simply to demonstrate a point.) Do you have to hate African-Americans too? No. Even if you do hate them, are you going to kill all of them that you can, even if you think you can get away with it? No. If you do, you will be evil. Tell them, bottom line: your character does not just fit into some mould, he is as unique as you or me. And hate does != (does not equal) a desire to kill.
TommyBlack 11-22-04, 12:55 AM	I don't see why you have to step in at all. Their explanation was lame, but they should be able to decide if their characters hate gnomes. Just let the conflict play out however they want it to, and if you don't like the conflict for whatever reason, set up a situation where there's room for character growth.