Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Autosponge 05-25-04, 07:13 PM	Here's my take. I love D&D and (at least currently) owe some allegiance to WotC for publishing it. I let my players use anything in my games that has the WotC trademark on it. This promotes the buying of new books which also helps my friend who owns a local comic and game shop. My problem is, I see too many ways to abuse the Complete Divine. So, what's a DM to do? Here's what I've noticed so far: 1. Divine Metamagic removes the "cap" on spell levels. This is dangerous because it can allow low-level characters to use high-powered versions of normal spells just by burning enough turning feats. This ordinarily wouldn't be so bad except that you can take Extra Turning and get 4 more attempts per day (or the Undeath Domain). At first level (human) you can take one Divine Metamagic feat, have a decent CHA, Extra Turning, and the Undeath Domain to produce 13-15 turning attempts. This can allow you to power up multiple quickened spells, a really super high DC spell, or other grossly overpowered spells for low level. This gets worse when you combine things like Profane Boost. With this, you use 1 turn attempt to maximaze inflict spells until your next turn ends as a standard action. Follow that with a quickened inflict in the same round. Then follow that with a quickened inflict and a regular inflict the next round. This means that you did (let's say at 3rd level) 33 points of damage in 2 rounds for the price of 11 turn attempts and 3 level 1 spell slots (both easy to attain at that level). If the character later takes Reach Spell, he's doing this with higher level inflict spells and at a range of 30'. 2. At 3rd level, a character can take extra turning, and metamagic (heighten spell) with the Undeath domain (or another Extra turning) to create spells of 15th level or higher (save DC around 26) for hold person. That's practically automatic even with the continued save attempts later, the target is probably never getting out until a CDG is performed or the spell expires. If you don't think that's bad, what about a heightened entangle? That pretty much dominates a battle. 3. Again using the inflict scenario (you have another feat coming at 3rd level if you took human) you take Divine Metamagic [Empower Spell]. Just tack this on to the end of #1 where if you started with 15 turn attempts, you still have 4 left and can empower two out of three of your maximized spells for a total of 43 points of damage. 4. Practiced Spellcaster allows characters to take monsterous races and still have the same caster level as other PCs of equal HD (no equal class level). There's probably more I'm missing, so if you see something, post it here. And maybe I'm just over reacting.
Autosponge 05-25-04, 10:39 PM	Use Persistant Spell (7 turn attempts, possible at 1st level with two of the three: Undeath Domain, Extra Turning, 18 CHA) to give yourself 24-hour... 24-hour Regenerate Light Wounds (1st level) 24-hour Mage Armor (1st level Force Domain) 24-hour Bull's Strength (2nd level) 24-hour Crystal of Reflection (scorching ray right back at ya!) (2nd level) 24-hour Godspeed spell (move 60 and +2 to AC) (3rd Level) 24-hour Invisibility Purge (3rd level) 24-hour Meld Into Stone (what are you a vampire?) (3rd level) 24-hour Mystic Lash (whipcha!) (3rd level) COMBO Empower and Persistant Regenerate Moderate Wounds (Clr3/Drd2) for 4 points/round regen for only 8 turn attempts (or do the same thing with Remedy Moderate Wounds and you can heal others)
Autosponge 05-25-04, 11:06 PM	This one is cool... Repeat Spell. This gives you another spell of your highest level for each 4 turn attempts you spend. In combination with the quickened inflict combo, you could get off 3 spells in the same round, all maximized! That would require Extra Turning, DM Quicken, Profane Boost, and DM Repeat. So you're looking at 6th level so you could be doing this with inflict serious wounds (3d8+6). You have 2+1 3rd level spells at 6th, so let's say you have a 16 WIS to get the 3rd inflict (since destruction domain gives contagion at 3rd). Round 1 - Spend 1 Turn and a standard action to create the Profane Boost effect (1 turn attempt), then as a quickened/repeated free action (9 turn attempts), cast Inflict Serious Wounds for the cost of 8 Turns Round 2 - (repeat, 2nd Inflict Serious goes off) Spend 5 Turns (total 15, probably the max for this level) for a quickened Inflict Serious (second one from your selection) and finish with the standard action for your last inflict serious wounds (fourth one). End of round the Profane Boost goes away. In 2 rounds you did 3d6+6+3d6+6+3d6+6+3d6+6=96 points of damage save for half. edit: SRD says you can't Repeat a spell with range touch. However, if you have Reach Spell, can you then repeat it?
Spooky_Jester 05-25-04, 11:22 PM	Complete Divine? Where do you get this information? Also, as with all clerics, a strictly enforced ethos should set the level... the DM has the power to lay down the rules for his clerics, if you think it is an abuse of power, chances are, so does his temple and if it is enough to catch his/her attention... far worse, his deity.
Autosponge 05-25-04, 11:38 PM	Complete Divine is the new "splat" book for Divine Casters. Everything else is from the core material, Players Guide to the FR or TaB. But most of it's core.
Autosponge 05-25-04, 11:46 PM	Question: If I used Twin Spell and Repeat Spell on the same spell, would I get 2 more spells the next round for free? Repeat says nothing about repeating metamagic effects from the previous spell. This would cost 9 turn attempts but could potentially cast 4 spells for the price of 1 spell slot.
HamHam 05-25-04, 11:47 PM	Originally posted by Spooky_Jester Complete Divine? Where do you get this information? Also, as with all clerics, a strictly enforced ethos should set the level... the DM has the power to lay down the rules for his clerics, if you think it is an abuse of power, chances are, so does his temple and if it is enough to catch his/her attention... far worse, his deity. Somehow, I think most dieties would support that sort of thing unless it was actually turned against their interest...
Autosponge 05-25-04, 11:58 PM	Someone pointed out that you can cast Eagle's Splendor for an extra 2 turning attempts. So that gives us a total of 17 attempts if our character is level 3+. You can make it Persistant for a net cost of 5 Turn attempts (really good for bards, sorcerers, or favored souls)
MoogleEmpMog 05-26-04, 01:14 AM	1., 2. and 3. all come from the same feat tree. Which tells me that the feat tree is broken as-is. I can see two options to fix this, which you can use either alone or in conjuction, as you wish. a) Make characters take the Metamagic Feat they want to apply Divine Metamagic to. This delays a human's Extra Turning to 3rd level and a non-human's to 6th. Plus, for every additional metamagic feat you apply, you need to add two feats. That adds up, and leaves a character bereft of other abilities. b) Make ability to xth-level divine spells a prerequisite for the Divine Metamagic feats, where x is the level the spell would be with normal metamagic. 4. isn't a problem it all - it's a GOOD THING. Geez. Monstrous characters get nerfed enough by their inflated LAs and useless racial hit dice. Unfortunately, Practiced Spellcaster doesn't help them, because their hit dice is still the cap, not their ECL. :( IMC, I will houserule this feat to work off ECL for just the purpose you mention. As it stands, it's only a 'worry' when applied to multiclassed characters, and even then it's hardly gamebreaking. Besides, it's best use is for DMs... dragons... :devil:
Autosponge 05-26-04, 08:43 AM	Ok, if you weren't impressed by Persistent Spell before, you will be now: Nimbus of Light as a Persistant spell would allow a LEVEL 1 CHARACTER to deal 1d8 + 600/hour since the spell was cast as a ranged touch attack 30' for 6 turn attempts. (nothing says you can't cast multiples that overlap either). So, you cast a persistant Nimbus of Light before you go to sleep the previous day. You start your fight at fight light, 8 hours later. Your first attack would (if it hits) deal 1d8 + 4800 points of damage. I win.
Autosponge 05-26-04, 01:16 PM	Great for duels. Highest stat goes into CHA. Take DM Quicken Spell as your first feat and Undeath Domain as a cleric. Then take 4 levels of favored soul and choose Hold Person as one of your 2nd level spells. Take Death Blow at 3rd level. Use 5 turn attempts (you have 7 min) to cast a quickened Hold Person as a free action, then CDG as a standard action. If you went Human, take DM Heighten Spell and increase the DC of the Hold Person with the rest of your turn attempts. Otherwise, Aasimar is a good choice because of the +2 CHA.
Autosponge 05-26-04, 03:16 PM	pg. 77 clears up a lot of this by saying you can only use one Divine Feat per round.
Autosponge 05-26-04, 03:27 PM	Still great for Epic characters looking to Intensify a 9th level spell.
Moblin 05-26-04, 03:51 PM	All those posts and you didn't comment my favorite (Persistent Divine power. More or less turns your Cleric into a fighter.) I response to your initial question about what to do about your players buying the book: If you’ve DM’ed for more then a few weeks (and I’m pretty sure you have :D) you know you have to judge things (espetially non core things) on a case by case basis. So there’s a few broken feats (persistent spell is a personal favorite of mine :nonono: ) and probably a few broken spells and PrC's. Fix them if you can (using the boards if necessary) and ban them if you can't. I'm sure that your players will understand and that there'll be plenty of material left for them to enjoy
Autosponge 05-26-04, 04:22 PM	So far I see the potential for some one-shot wonders doing insane damage (like Persistant Nimbus of Light) or really slow but helpful effects (like Persistant Regen), but I'm afraid that the players are going to find something I'm not seeing and make a huge deal out of it down the road. Any combos that could have this effect if you use the DM feats to power Arcane spells? (by the way it's worded, you can do such a thing, even if you only have one level of cleric you can DM Quicken your fireball if you have enough turn attempts)
scott644 05-26-04, 04:29 PM	Originally posted by Autosponge Ok, if you weren't impressed by Persistent Spell before, you will be now: Nimbus of Light as a Persistant spell would allow a LEVEL 1 CHARACTER to deal 1d8 + 600/hour since the spell was cast as a ranged touch attack 30' for 6 turn attempts. (nothing says you can't cast multiples that overlap either). So, you cast a persistant Nimbus of Light before you go to sleep the previous day. You start your fight at fight light, 8 hours later. Your first attack would (if it hits) deal 1d8 + 4800 points of damage. I win. 1) I don't recall seeing any references to Persistant Spell in the 3.5 rules, for which the Complete Divine is written. 2) Burning everything around you eh? That'll be a very uncomfortable night's sleep before that fight. Consider, you have daylight equivalent brightness blasting your eyes and keeping you awake. You have a circle of heat igniting flammables within range; are you sleeping in a flammable location? You also don't have invulnerability to fire - just immunity to the immediate damage of the spell - meaning you're probably in a lot of trouble once things begin igniting around you. This is hardly broken.
Autosponge 05-26-04, 04:40 PM	Originally posted by scott644 1) I don't recall seeing any references to Persistant Spell in the 3.5 rules, for which the Complete Divine is written. 2) Burning everything around you eh? That'll be a very uncomfortable night's sleep before that fight. Consider, you have daylight equivalent brightness blasting your eyes and keeping you awake. You have a circle of heat igniting flammables within range; are you sleeping in a flammable location? You also don't have invulnerability to fire - just immunity to the immediate damage of the spell - meaning you're probably in a lot of trouble once things begin igniting around you. This is hardly broken. #1 Allow me to quote the SRD (it's part of the rules): PERSISTENT SPELL [METAMAGIC] Prerequisite: Extend Spell. Benefit: A persistent spell has a duration of 24 hours. The persistent spell must have a personal range or a fixed range. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You need not concentrate on spells such as detect magic or detect thoughts to be aware of the mere presence of absence of the things detected, but you must still concentrate to gain additional information as normal. Concentration on such a spell is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell’s actual level. #2 Nimbus spell description says it's like a lantern. That's hardly daylight. It says nothing about giving off heat or being able to combust something. Besides, it's +600 dmg per hour, you don't *have* to cast it before you go to bed, but it's certainly a one-shot kill against anything a DM could have for low levels.
Autosponge 05-26-04, 05:02 PM	This may be the worst one yet. Persistant Delay Death. Can be done at 5th level cleric. For 24-hours the character can not die from hp damage.
scott644 05-26-04, 08:53 PM	Originally posted by Autosponge #1 Allow me to quote the SRD (it's part of the rules): PERSISTENT SPELL [METAMAGIC] Prerequisite: Extend Spell. Benefit: A persistent spell has a duration of 24 hours. The persistent spell must have a personal range or a fixed range. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You need not concentrate on spells such as detect magic or detect thoughts to be aware of the mere presence of absence of the things detected, but you must still concentrate to gain additional information as normal. Concentration on such a spell is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell’s actual level. #2 Nimbus spell description says it's like a lantern. That's hardly daylight. It says nothing about giving off heat or being able to combust something. Besides, it's +600 dmg per hour, you don't *have* to cast it before you go to bed, but it's certainly a one-shot kill against anything a DM could have for low levels. Ok, my bad. I saw Nimbus and thought Burning Aura. Still, PHB doesn't have Persistent Spell; which SRD are you using? It most definately isn't in the feats list for 3.5. Try going here (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Feats.rtf)
Vanigo 05-27-04, 09:38 PM	A lot of the stuff in that book seems overpowered to me. Take favored soul: Spontaneous cleric spellcasting, medium BAB, lots of abilities, and all good saves. This might work out okay with one good save and low BAB, but all good saves and medium BAB? This thing - well, it's not that hard to beat the sorcerer, but it completely blows the sorcerer out of the water, and quite possibly out of the atmosphere as well. Spirit shaman is even worse: Lots of abilities, two good saves, medium BAB, 4 skill points a level, the best features of spontaneous spellcasting, and the best features of spell preparation. Downside? What downside? There's Radiant Servant of Pelor, which doesn't even have a token downside compared to cleric, Sacred Exorcist, which is much the same, and is also a very nice PrC for arcane casters, mostly because you can dip into it for turning to qualify for all the feats which require it. There's miasma, a sixth level spell that's virtually guarenteed to kill anything that breathes. How about cometfall, which has no damamge cap? Sacred haven, a fourth level paladin spell, is somewhat more powerful than 9th level foresight. Then there are the relics. A tome of the stilled tongue is slightly less powerful than one of the minor artifacts that give you a free level. How much is it worth? 54,580 gp. On the whole, I'd say this book makes the Book of Exalted Deeds look underpowered.
Autosponge 05-27-04, 09:44 PM	Scott look in Divine Feats. It's there and doesn't have the Divine tag, just Metamagic.
Autosponge 05-27-04, 09:51 PM	Was also printed with same wording in PGttFR which is 3.5.
scott644 05-27-04, 11:34 PM	Originally posted by Autosponge Was also printed with same wording in PGttFR which is 3.5. 1) The reference is clearly not core. 2) The reference is clearly campaign specific. 3) The campaign is inarguably high-magic. Now if you prefer high-magic campaigns, with broken magical effects, go for it. I'll keep running core and splatbook.
Votan 05-27-04, 11:37 PM	Originally posted by Vanigo A lot of the stuff in that book seems overpowered to me. Take favored soul: Spontaneous cleric spellcasting, medium BAB, lots of abilities, and all good saves. This might work out okay with one good save and low BAB, but all good saves and medium BAB? This thing - well, it's not that hard to beat the sorcerer, but it completely blows the sorcerer out of the water, and quite possibly out of the atmosphere as well. Spirit shaman is even worse: Lots of abilities, two good saves, medium BAB, 4 skill points a level, the best features of spontaneous spellcasting, and the best features of spell preparation. Downside? What downside? Compared to a pure class cleric, I think that the Favored Soul comes out close to balanced. The good abilities happen late and a divine caster suffers more from a limited spell selection (as a cleric knows all spells by default). The split attribute for casting basically means that offensive casting is a lost cause unless the favored soul decides to neglect melee ability. Plus, the loss of the domains really hurts. The arcane spells in the domains added a lot of punch to the cleric and the domian abilities were pretty awesome (luck domain anyone or war). Losing this also means that the FS has a very limited amount of extra spells over a cleric. I've never seen one played but I'd allow one in my campagins (which might not be an endorsement -- I've let in some pretty high powered characters so far). There's miasma, a sixth level spell that's virtually guarenteed to kill anything that breathes. How about cometfall, which has no damamge cap? Sacred haven, a fourth level paladin spell, is somewhat more powerful than 9th level foresight. Okay, I have no issues with comet fall and miasma as being overpowered. But foresight really sucks as a 9th level spell and really does not compare to anything else at that level. Unless very liberally interpreted by a DM the effects are trival and the duration is embarrassing. But to get a 4th level spell a Paladin has to have stuck to their class for a long time (14 levels -- the later ones of which do not have quite the benefit of the early levels). They used to get Holy Sword which isn;t as good as it used to be. I have no trouble with them getting the occasional really good spell so long as it does not migrate to other spell lists as a 4th level spell.
Autosponge 05-28-04, 12:00 AM	Ok, after much review into the possibilities of divine metamagic, I think the worst abuses are yet to be found but they're all going to relate to persistance. The ability to have certain high-level spell-effects always on is a nasty ability. As soon as you get 5th level spells you can 3 of these running: Spell Resistance, Monsterous Regeneration, Righteous Might, etc. Quicken is fancy, but it's just a one-shot wonder thing. But stuff that was suppose to be 1 round/level and was never suppose to be made persistant or permanent (except maybe a epic levels) may be unbalancing. And to scott, thanks for dropping by but I'll thank you not to disparage those of us who play "non-core". You're no more of a D&D purist or any more of a roleplayer because you play "core". If you only play core, you shouldn't have even commented here since I'm discussing a new "splat-book" for divine casters. kthxbye.
Azer Firelord 05-28-04, 03:14 PM	Sounds to me like Persistent Spell is broken and needs to be banned. Now, as I don't own any rules books with Persistent Spell in atm, this seems unlikely to cause any major problems. Still, when a player brings along PGtF and asks to add 'a few things' to my homebrew, I'll know to be extra wary... You know, maybe Complete Arcane will have a 'fix' for Persistent Spell? just an idea...
scott644 05-28-04, 07:36 PM	Originally posted by Autosponge And to scott, thanks for dropping by but I'll thank you not to disparage those of us who play "non-core". You're no more of a D&D purist or any more of a roleplayer because you play "core". If you only play core, you shouldn't have even commented here since I'm discussing a new "splat-book" for divine casters. kthxbye. No disparagement provided. Realism, but absolutely no disparagement. If it's treated as viable in all of the game, it's core. If it's designed for a specific type of campaign (like Persistant Spell for high magic campaigns), then it should be kept in the context of those campaigns. Not purism or disparagement in the least; just practical application.
scott644 05-28-04, 07:38 PM	Originally posted by Azer Firelord Sounds to me like Persistent Spell is broken and needs to be banned. Now, as I don't own any rules books with Persistent Spell in atm, this seems unlikely to cause any major problems. Still, when a player brings along PGtF and asks to add 'a few things' to my homebrew, I'll know to be extra wary... You know, maybe Complete Arcane will have a 'fix' for Persistent Spell? just an idea... Unless I miss my guess, Complete Arcane won't have the feat in the first place. Persistent Spell is clearly designed for high magic campaign settings (where it isn't broken), and the splat books tend to go more toward the general game.
Sarta 05-28-04, 09:18 PM	Sounds like the play-testing wasn't as thorough as it should have been. Sarta
bitnine 05-28-04, 09:54 PM	Personally, I'm not a big fan of things that break the metacap in general. I guess I'm just not crazy to see a chained maze, or a twinned wish, or an extended implosion, or things of the like - particularly if available at the very level that the spell itself becomes an option.
Azer Firelord 05-28-04, 10:11 PM	Yeah, that is a fair point- 9th level spells are the highest form of magic (In my campaign anyway...hah wizards get bad again eventually....no epic spells for them). I believe in Forgotten Realms (if we're looking at Pgtf we might as well cite FR myth as well), Mystra actually removed higher level spells from the universe. So, I'd make divine metamagic unable to go higher than level 9...
Brand Finbuck 05-28-04, 11:42 PM	Yo Sponge, this may rain on the Nimbus parade: "nor can spells whose effects are discharged." "Nimbus of Light... ...1 min./level or until discharged (D)" Nimbus of Light can't be used with Persistent Spell.
WCrawford 05-29-04, 06:28 AM	Originally posted by Azer Firelord Yeah, that is a fair point- 9th level spells are the highest form of magic (In my campaign anyway...hah wizards get bad again eventually....no epic spells for them). I believe in Forgotten Realms (if we're looking at Pgtf we might as well cite FR myth as well), Mystra actually removed higher level spells from the universe. So, I'd make divine metamagic unable to go higher than level 9... Divine Metamagic, and metamagic in general (with the exception of Heighten Spell), never changes the level of the spell. A Quickened 9th level spell is still a 9th level spell.
Autosponge 05-29-04, 07:56 AM	Originally posted by Brand Finbuck Yo Sponge, this may rain on the Nimbus parade: "nor can spells whose effects are discharged." "Nimbus of Light... ...1 min./level or until discharged (D)" Nimbus of Light can't be used with Persistent Spell. Yeah I saw that a day or so ago, I thought I posted a retraction, guess not. The worst offenses yet came in the WE. The DwK PrC has a supernatural spell ability that allows you to cast without components..... anyone say miracle 4/day?
Azer Firelord 05-29-04, 10:47 AM	Well, I think Dweomer Keeper is even weaker than mystic theurge- there is the same basic problem, which is the cleric/wizard multiclass means less acess to high level spells, and then they don't get Mystic Theurge's bonus of adding to both spelcating classes. So, Miracle 4 times a day, if you are level 21? (Assuming 3 levels of Wizard needed to meeet the requirements). Yes, I know Divine Metamagic doesn't raise the spell level. What I meant, was, I would house-rule that it does, for the purposes of the metacap only. No twinned miracles, maximised gates, or what have you.