Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JamesDruidDM 03-02-06, 07:01 PM	I was running a small game, 2 pcs, very heavy RP little combat here and there, so heres my problem I use the get 3 20's in a row and you "miracle" and deal your damage x10 to the target critter you are fighting, and it goes both ways critters can do it to you as well its posted on the wall as a house rule. So last night at the game , they ran across Grifflen Sloblack, goblin tracker (has a level in ranger) and a heated discussion became an all out brawl , and with quickdraw the goblin rolled 20, 20, 20 and then rolled 3 on a d4 for damage (no str adj) dealing 30 damage to my pc (who was level 2) and dropped him, my other pc freaked out (IC) and ran away from the little demon goblin. so now what do I do? is it fair? any suggestions?
SokenzanMarauder 03-02-06, 07:06 PM	Wow! I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's unfair because both the players and NPCs can do it. So no, in my eyes it's fair. However, if the goblin didn't want to fight in the first place, maybe have him feel all guilty and have him offer to pay half (maybe a quarter) of the resurrection cost for the dead player (if he can of course). But, if he was semi-hostile, I say you've got yourself a good nemesis for the players. They won't know he's really weak but think he's a demonically possesed goblin. Could be used to some effect if played right. -Gene
Wargamer 03-02-06, 07:07 PM	Personally, I wouldn't have killed the PC. They are the leading characters in your story, and it doesn't seem right they should be snuffed out by random chance. Now if he'd have taken some injuries first, then fine, but the first hit of the fight? No, especially not for a heavy RP campaign.
Bruunwald 03-02-06, 07:09 PM	I'd say it's fair, in that it's a softer variant of the 20-20-20 = death thingy. We play the 20-20-20 = death thingy and it has yet to result in anyone's death, though it's just as likely to result in a PC death as an NPC death. That's the thing about allowing any rule into the game that carries a certainty of an outcome. But was it fairly applied? Yes, you posted the house rule (on the wall no less!) and everybody agreed to play under it. It ended up happening, but that was the point, wasn't it? We all roll the dice and we all take our chances. Now, as far as the fairness of killing a PC outright, early in the game, I fudge things a bit here and there, to keep it going for awhile. But at 2nd-level, your guy couldn't have had that many hit points, so it doesn't sound to me like you had much of a choice but to apply the damage as it came. So I don't blame you. But in the future you might want to keep in mind that you could roll behind a screen, then fudge the outcome if necessary to keep things moving.
PenderGrass 03-02-06, 07:10 PM	I use the get 3 20's in a row and you "miracle" and deal your damage x10 to the target critter you are fighting, and it goes both ways critters can do it to you as well its posted on the wall as a house rule. Get rid of this. Learn the lesson. Lesson learned? Never create a table, chart or rule that you are not willing to live with as a DM. In other words, what do you think happens when you multiply damage by 10? Lots of dead things. So, you made it unlikely to happen by needing to roll three 20s in a row - so what? If you make a chart with a 1 in 10 billion chance of someone getting a vorpal sword at first level - guess what? Someone is going to have one. Next thing you know, you will posting here how a PC got a vorpal greatsword at 1st level and how it is ruining your game. :dragon: ****
spaceiscurved 03-02-06, 07:22 PM	Personally, I wouldn't have killed the PC. you had no problem killing the metagamer. JK JK. I think that if they agreed to play it, use it, but if it was, as you say, a highly RP game then you could have made him almost die and the other dude has to do something REALLY hard right now to save him. the trick is, not to tell him the DC of the heal check or whatever. that way, if it fails its the players fault. just an idea, but i wouldnt use it myself cuz im more of a rule cruncher
JamesDruidDM 03-02-06, 07:26 PM	Get rid of this. Learn the lesson. Lesson learned? Never create a table, chart or rule that you are not willing to live with as a DM. In other words, what do you think happens when you multiply damage by 10? Lots of dead things. So, you made it unlikely to happen by needing to roll three 20s in a row - so what? If you make a chart with a 1 in 10 billion chance of someone getting a vorpal sword at first level - guess what? Someone is going to have one. Next thing you know, you will posting here how a PC got a vorpal greatsword at 1st level and how it is ruining your game. :dragon: **** I suppose your one of those people who run straight raw? The rule is there because we all like it and enjoy it, it ads some flavor to th game, my question isnt about the house rule, its there its on the wall, its accepted (and my players would b**** if I removed) My question to my fellow DMs is would this be the kinda time you would let the players jump back (ddeus ex machina I think is the term I see here all the time) for this kind of an incident, or should I play it is and make the player roll up a new pc? (and the goblin is not a random encounter)
JamesDruidDM 03-02-06, 07:29 PM	the other dude has to do something REALLY hard right now to save him. the trick is, not to tell him the DC of the heal check or whatever. that way, if it fails its the players fault. just an idea, but i wouldnt use it myself cuz im more of a rule cruncher I like it and will use it thanks, mmm more plot.....crazy clerics, the idea just keep coming thanks fellas
MasterRookie 03-02-06, 07:32 PM	at low levels this actually isn't fair. The PC's don't need to deal a minimum of 10 damage to defeate a goblin. A regular hit with a decent weapon will probably do the trick they've only got 4 hp. The players gain no real benefite. The Goblin on the other hand has the chance to deal high damage. A chance a goblin desperatly needs to defeate a PC. If one side can really use the rule and the other can't its not a fair rule.
JamesDruidDM 03-02-06, 07:36 PM	at low levels this actually isn't fair. The PC's don't need to deal a minimum of 10 damage to defeate a goblin. A regular hit with a decent weapon will probably do the trick they've only got 4 hp. The players gain no real benefite. The Goblin on the other hand has the chance to deal high damage. A chance a goblin desperatly needs to defeate a PC. If one side can really use the rule and the other can't its not a fair rule. Boths PCs and NPCs and Monsters may use the three 20's rule
Bruunwald 03-02-06, 07:47 PM	The thing is that it is so very rarely going to play out this way. The odds are long you are going to see this again. It just so happens that it played out against a PC this time, so it's striking many as a bad rule because of that. Many of us would have fudged the dice simply because the character was new (as it sounds like the game was) and we wouldn't want to discourage our players or kill a character off before we got to know him. Like I said, we play 20-20-20 = death (a rule you can find in your books). In years and years of playing we have yet to lose a PC through this. It might still happen, but it's not so common that the rule itself is questionable. It just makes the game a bit more dangerous. If it were questionable I doubt Wizards would sanction the 20-20-20 = death option. But they do. Your rule is not even that harsh: it grants a possibility for survival. Your rule was posted, and so it itself was not, to my mind, unfair.
Mobar2006 03-02-06, 08:03 PM	I suppose your one of those people who run straight raw? The rule is there because we all like it and enjoy it, it ads some flavor to th game, my question isnt about the house rule, its there its on the wall, its accepted (and my players would b**** if I removed) My question to my fellow DMs is would this be the kinda time you would let the players jump back (ddeus ex machina I think is the term I see here all the time) for this kind of an incident, or should I play it is and make the player roll up a new pc? (and the goblin is not a random encounter) I'd leave it as is. This is why we play D&D and don't write novels, cause we LIKE the randomness of outcomes, this is a great story moment that you wouldn't have thought of in YEARS! The char alive now has two goals, get his freind raised an kill that goblin. Now since they are second level only he's not gonna be able to do it on his own, but he could take the body of his dear freind to a temple and beg the clerics there to raise him and he'll do ANYTHING for them in exchange. That's what I would do in the surviving PC's place.
primemover003 03-02-06, 08:54 PM	I'd say it's fair, in that it's a softer variant of the 20-20-20 = death thingy. We play the 20-20-20 = death thingy and it has yet to result in anyone's death, though it's just as likely to result in a PC death as an NPC death... The thing is that it is so very rarely going to play out this way. The odds are long you are going to see this again. Just to refute Bruunwald's experience, in the last 4 years, in 4 campaigns the 20-20-confirm rule has happened a whopping 11 times. Two of them came our last session, once for the PC's once for the Monsters. Make this death mean something. Here's a story hooks waiting to happen.
JamesDruidDM 03-02-06, 09:00 PM	Ok so this goblin is going to become a bbeg is kinda what I decided, it ran off and left the pc dead on the ground, I talked to the players and the pc that lived did indeed take the dead one to the temple, and now I have a good side plot for the pc and the other player is going to play a cleric from the temple (temp till he gets his res) - to find a divine item that will restore the dead pc to life (little town no one can cast res or raise or reicarnate) - so now I have a good little side mission that I can do a dungeon crawl with. Thanks guys, I may not say it or show it but yer opinions are all valid and I appreciate em Jim
Mobar2006 03-02-06, 09:03 PM	Ok so this goblin is going to become a bbeg is kinda what I decided, it ran off and left the pc dead on the ground, I talked to the players and the pc that lived did indeed take the dead one to the temple, and now I have a good side plot for the pc and the other player is going to play a cleric from the temple (temp till he gets his res) - to find a divine item that will restore the dead pc to life (little town no one can cast res or raise or reicarnate) - so now I have a good little side mission that I can do a dungeon crawl with. Thanks guys, I may not say it or show it but yer opinions are all valid and I appreciate em Jim Let us know how it turns out, sounds like a good yarn is about to happen.
ubernex 03-02-06, 09:13 PM	I think it's great, there is now a goblin out there of which stories will be told, yarns will be spun, and the surviving PC's now have some good story stuff to deal with. If you and your players like it - keep it, it effects everyone, and keeps a "massive damage" option open at even the high ends. This type of thing will happen about once every 8,000 attacks so, statistically speaking, probably won't see it again anytime soon. Long live the death goblin.
talkingbeatles 03-02-06, 09:16 PM	I thinks that's awesome. Of course I think something that would have cleared up confusion, is if the goblin would have been as confused as the PC who ran away. After all, it was a lucky hit. He probably didn't expect to kill him in one strike.
UmbraLux 03-02-06, 09:44 PM	As others have said, if you don't like what happened, drop the rule. Something to remember when considering house rules: anything based on random chance favors the NPCs, not the PCs.
WhiteRaven810 03-02-06, 10:21 PM	Completely fair. Characters die. It's what happens. It adds realism to the game if Player's have to be wary of approaching death. Edit/P.S. - You may want to drop the house rule for the future however, as others had suggeted prior.
Tyrasius 03-02-06, 10:29 PM	about white ravens sig... First off what is SHIO? I know what PEACH is Second order of the stick rocks
Number_1_DM 03-02-06, 10:36 PM	Yep, fair as an elven maiden with an 18 charisma. I didn't read all the posts, but I'm pretty sure that three 20s in a row is an auto kill anyhow(DM's guide or something).
20goingon1232 03-02-06, 10:43 PM	I'd say it's fair, in that it's a softer variant of the 20-20-20 = death thingy. We play the 20-20-20 = death thingy and it has yet to result in anyone's death, though it's just as likely to result in a PC death as an NPC death. Actually, this is not true. Each INDIVIDUAL attack would have the same chance of rolling a T20. However, NPCs usually have more attacks than the PCs simply because there is usually more of them. Also, killing an NPC (unless it is a plot integral or a BBEG type guy) is a "Meh! Another dead guy." occurance. Knocking off a PC, on the other hand, is something else. Most NPCs you meet in combat are only there for that combat. PCs have to hang around more and get into more scrapes. Thus, the probability of a PC getting killed with a T20 is higher than that of a NPC getting spanked. Personally, I run a variant of the rule. You keep rolling attack rolls as long as you not only confirmed the critical, but rolled a number that would threaten a critical. Then you total up the multipliers and roll damage accordingly. Thus, for example, a Fighter with Str 14 wields a Greatsword and rolls a 19, and then confirms it with a natural 19-20, he rolls again. If his third roll confirms but is not a 19-20, his critical is x3 instead of the usual x2. If his third roll is a 19-20, then he rolls again, and if he confirms that one, the damage is now x4. He will keep rolling until he no longer rolls a threat that would confirm the previous roll.
WhylniaPendragon 03-02-06, 11:22 PM	In our games, we have been going by the T20 rule. So far at least 2 PCs have died from the dreaded "instant death". We're going to work on a different system, soon, though. It makes things less deadly for the PCs, but will cause the character affected to suffer from a permanant disability, depending on what type of weapon was used. Thus, if the Great Axe weilding Orc does a T20 on someone, there is a random table that will determine which body part is affected and how severely. I can see a PC ending up with only one arm, through this method, but hey.. at least he/she is still alive, right? (and can then go on a quest to find someone who can Regenerate the part, hehe). I agree with most, though, that since the rule was posted and accepted, you ruled it fairly. Here's hoping that this all turns into an exciting campaign for you and your players :D Huzzah!
PenderGrass 03-02-06, 11:27 PM	I suppose your one of those people who run straight raw? The rule is there because we all like it and enjoy it, it ads some flavor to th game, my question isnt about the house rule, its there its on the wall, its accepted (and my players would b**** if I removed) My question to my fellow DMs is would this be the kinda time you would let the players jump back (ddeus ex machina I think is the term I see here all the time) for this kind of an incident, or should I play it is and make the player roll up a new pc? (and the goblin is not a random encounter) You suppose wrong. But I do let the rolls land where they may. Part of the "fun" of being a DM is the way D&D plays out. The players add to one factor, the dice to another, the npcs, world dynamics and general campaign theme all add together to make one helluva ride for everyone involved. And that would be my advice to you, if you created this rule and the players like it and you want it too - then abide by it. Don't cry about how it kills your PCs or "ruins" storylines with too many (easy) deaths. Death of PCs don't kill stories. Narrow-thinking DMs kill stories. Be free and let your imagination go beyond the realm of PC death, TPKs and "too-easily-killed-BBEGs." :dragon: ****
Mitchell 03-03-06, 03:34 AM	Any rule like this always "favors" the DM. There are two characters. There are theoretically infinite monsters. If it works for the characters, it was just another monster. If it works for the monsters, then the characters die. You used the rule. You say you like the rule? The players like the rule? Live with the rule. Time for a new character, and if you feel so inclined, you may wish to revisit this rule with them and ask them how they feel about it now. And before any asks or accuses, no, I'm not a "Strictly by the RAW" DM. I just know that anything that promotes killing characters beyond the norm is not a good thing for my game, and this promotes killing characters.
Firhyanda 03-03-06, 05:13 AM	:eek: The legend of the vorple hobgoblin long ago in the days of 2e early eighty’s there was a party of 8 stout adventures all 1st level (we had 4 players you each got two characters for the campaign). At any rate the DM had decided to run this huge dungeon a vast pyramid in the desert. We all arrived on time for are first game session of this vary long campaign and the DM announced that he would be using the old law system for critical hits claw law spell law etcetera basically wicked critical hit tables. So the party works there way into the dungeon and has there first encounter a group of six hobgoblins. The battle is joined well, the fighter’s easly dispatched the first two hob gobs but the third rolls a critical as he was missed twice he takes out are paladin. Next the second fighter goes down to normal damage from the forth and fifth hob gob. The third hob gobs turn comes around agene and it crites agene the big fighter 10 hole hp takes a decapitating critical which takes off his head the DM rolled a 98 on the chart. And so it whet the other hob gobs fell but we just could not seem to hit the third one its AC was the same as the others we just kept getting bad rolls and it just kept criting. When all was said and done it was TPK with the exception of a single first level thief who got out with 2hp. The thief died trying to cross the desert alone. Well its many years later and my game group does not get together as often as we once did but we do still play about once a month and now and then there is a spurt of weekly games. But you know what about once a year at the table some one brings up the legend of the vorple hobgoblin and we have a house rule criticales are for PCs only and there are never any critical hit tables.
Chobemaster 03-03-06, 08:29 AM	I suppose your one of those people who run straight raw? The rule is there because we all like it and enjoy it, it ads some flavor to th game, my question isnt about the house rule, its there its on the wall, its accepted (and my players would b**** if I removed) My question to my fellow DMs is would this be the kinda time you would let the players jump back (ddeus ex machina I think is the term I see here all the time) for this kind of an incident, or should I play it is and make the player roll up a new pc? (and the goblin is not a random encounter) If they "accept" and like the rule, then they should complain just as loudly if the effects are reversed. If the rule is out there and everyone is on board, then the PC is dead, and there's no call to try to "fix" anything.
Chobemaster 03-03-06, 08:32 AM	Actually, this is not true. Each INDIVIDUAL attack would have the same chance of rolling a T20. However, NPCs usually have more attacks than the PCs simply because there is usually more of them. Also, killing an NPC (unless it is a plot integral or a BBEG type guy) is a "Meh! Another dead guy." occurance. Knocking off a PC, on the other hand, is something else. Most NPCs you meet in combat are only there for that combat. PCs have to hang around more and get into more scrapes. Thus, the probability of a PC getting killed with a T20 is higher than that of a NPC getting spanked. Exactly. The "same chance of getting everyone" reason would be true...IF the same number of PC's and NPC's/monsters appear every session. That would be awfully surprising, since normally PC's have multiple different encounters in a single session.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-03-06, 08:47 AM	So last night at the game , they ran across Grifflen Sloblack, goblin tracker (has a level in ranger) and a heated discussion became an all out brawl , and with quickdraw the goblin rolled 20, 20, 20 and then rolled 3 on a d4 for damage (no str adj) dealing 30 damage to my pc (who was level 2) and dropped him, my other pc freaked out (IC) and ran away from the little demon goblin. :rofl: Grifflen Sloblack is my new hero. :bow: If the rule has always been around in your game and everyone agrees to it, it's plenty fair to apply it when it comes up. And at least you got a good story and potential plot hooks out of the deal. Seems all good to me. Any chance you could post Grifflen's stats for... posterity?
Cantankerous 03-03-06, 09:12 AM	I'm the kind of guy who has house rules on their house rules, but... When a house rule jumps up and bites you on the backside, learn from it. Either write it off as a bad idea or modify it so that it doesn't bite you again in the future. Anyway, is it fair: If it applies equally to everyone, yes. The PCs face more opponents you say? Not really. As often, or more often than not, it is they who have the numbers advantage in any given encounter. But they have more encounters, right? Why? The PCs by virtue of being PCs already have more than their fair share of built in advanatages, including maximum hit points at first level, certain skills just not operating against them in the same manner as they do the NPCs, individual minds of the Players thinking only about and for them (a huge one there) and so on. They don't need any more advanatges. If you add more rules to your game, for pity sake, make them extend to EVERYONE, not just PCs, not just NPCs. If you give an NPC the ability to do a certain thing, it should also be available to the PCs, irregardless of what it is. They may have to do X to get access to the ability, but hey, as long as they have access to it, it's fair. By the same token, the NPCs should also have access to the same ADDED rules as the PCs, specificly to keep that balance. So, was it fair? Sure. Is it a good House Rule? "Fool me (or bite my south end when I'm northboud) once, shame on you. Fool me (or bite my south end when I'm northboud) twice, shame on me." Don't get so enamoured by a House Rule that you're unwilling to modify it when it bites you. Isshia
Terjonwh 03-03-06, 09:18 AM	Rules like this are unfair to the players. Not because they are not evenly and justly applied to PC and NPC alike but, because they will always heart a PC in the long run. When a player gets a spiffy instakill you cross off one monster and move on. It doesn't impact the game much at all and the DM isn't hurt. At worst it requires some rework to the story he is setting up. When a PC dies from it the player looses something he has put work into and invested in the development of. Death is part of the game but it shouldn't be from some fluke roll.
Balor von Balorvitch 03-03-06, 09:30 AM	:eek: The legend of the vorple hobgoblin long ago in the days of 2e early eighty’s there was a party of 8 stout adventures all 1st level. Am i glad those clown Pcs got whats coming to them! None wants to here about how the Pcs won another battle aganist a hobgoblin band. The PCs are not heros, The Vorpal Hobgoblin & The Goblin Marshal are true heros for they truely overcame the odds!
Sulaco 03-03-06, 09:52 AM	The rule is there because we all like it and enjoy it, it ads some flavor to th game, Then why are you posting here bemoaning the outcome? If you and your players really do enjoy siad rule then that means you simply take it in stride and deal withte outcome. That fact you worry that something is wrong indicates that even you realize, perhaps subconsciously, that the rule is flawed.
Epicweaver 03-03-06, 10:21 AM	I suppose your one of those people who run straight raw? Straight RAW doesn't usually create problems like this. :rofl: It should apply both ways. Kill the player off. If anything it reinforces the consistency of your world and that everyone is held to the rules of the table (even NPCs). [quote]My question to my fellow DMs is would this be the kinda time you would let the players jump back (ddeus ex machina I think is the term I see here all the time) for this kind of an incident, or should I play it is and make the player roll up a new pc? (and the goblin is not a random encounter) A level 2 is not hard to re-roll. It would keep up with the realism of danger to let him die and have him bring in a new character. Personally, I agree with the above... house rules work both ways... Your players are munchkins if they think the "miracle" 20, 20, 20 rule should only apply to their attacks. Your player needs to suck it up and make a new character. You should bring up revamping the rule when he's finished. If they keep it, they now realize it can really happen to them too (which is good), If they ditch it then lesson learned.
wonlee76 03-03-06, 11:02 AM	My question to my fellow DMs is would this be the kinda time you would let the players jump back (ddeus ex machina I think is the term I see here all the time) for this kind of an incident, or should I play it is and make the player roll up a new pc? (and the goblin is not a random encounter) Well, this depends on the player. Is he that attached to the character? If he wants to continue playing the character bring him back. 1 level lower due to the raise dead (500 xp) and loss of valuable (probably at best, masterwork equipment at this point) gear since I doubt the goblin would just dump the body without looting the valuables from it first. This keeps your rule in place and the death meaningful since there is some minor drawback to the PC (loss of xp and some gear/gold). XP and GP can be earned back in the future so its not the biggest lost in the world. This could create an interesting plot hook. Who in their right mind would pay to get this dead 2nd level PC raised (5000 gold worth of diamonds needed). What does this mysterious person/organization want from the PC? Or perhaps the player knows the person/organization and now needs to work off the debt owed. This could open up a wealth of opportunities depending on what your campaign setting is like.
Bruunwald 03-03-06, 01:08 PM	Just to refute Bruunwald's experience, in the last 4 years, in 4 campaigns the 20-20-confirm rule has happened a whopping 11 times. Two of them came our last session, once for the PC's once for the Monsters. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But your example is an exception, not the rule. In five years we've seen it once. Against a monster. I haven't seen it with the current group in four years. Will it happen? Yes. Is it a common occurrence? No. Not at all. And that is all I was saying. Anyway, why fight me on it when obviously neither of us thinks it so game breaking as to ban it? We both use it. Are you trying to prove that I'm wrong to prove that in agreeing with me on using it you are right? :rolleyes:
Sereno 03-03-06, 01:20 PM	I've played both with the "20-20-20=death" rule and without it. I've been a victim of it and been victorious because of it several times over many years of play (luckily I was high-enough level to warrant being brought back and had a real good reason to want to). I try to keep my own house ruling to an absolute minimum. However, one house rule I've been considering is to change all of the "insta-death" rules (basically the 20-20-20 and all save-or-die) to be "instantly drops you to -1 HP and unstabilized." I want death to still be something for the PCs to fear, but I absolutely HATE IT that a well-played and well-loved PC can be snuffed out so easily by a single bad die roll. It feels SOOOO unheroic! A PC death should be dramatic and MEAN something, not be "Oh, crap, I rolled a 1." Has anyone else ever tried this? Did it make a big difference?
Terjonwh 03-03-06, 02:14 PM	I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But your example is an exception, not the rule. In five years we've seen it once. Against a monster. I haven't seen it with the current group in four years. Will it happen? Yes. Is it a common occurrence? No. Not at all. And that is all I was saying. Anyway, why fight me on it when obviously neither of us thinks it so game breaking as to ban it? We both use it. Are you trying to prove that I'm wrong to prove that in agreeing with me on using it you are right? :rolleyes: The 20-20-20 death thing will happen once out of every 8000 attacks.
DragonDeadite 03-03-06, 02:20 PM	Back in old 2ed we did the Double 20 means death! That lasted for one session when a sicle wielding halfling thief (like level 3, I might be getting my game editions mixed up) was suprised by a displacer beast, and on her first attack (which should have been her last) sliced the thing in half (double 20s) and pretty much ruined what I had planned to be a good fight... since then we've never used the instant death rule in any campaign I've ever played in. If someone gets double 20s I have them keep on rolling just to see how far they would go and then say "Awww... too bad we're not using that rule!" which makes them mad... it's funny. I think the idea of triple threat =X10, but maybe it should just double the crit multiplier? So a X2 becomes X4, the wrost you end up with is X8, still not as likely to kill off a second level PC, but a bit more interesting and viable since it's a reflection of the weapon. Just my two cents.
JamesDruidDM 03-03-06, 05:32 PM	I think the idea of triple threat =X10, but maybe it should just double the crit multiplier? So a X2 becomes X4, the wrost you end up with is X8, still not as likely to kill off a second level PC, but a bit more interesting and viable since it's a reflection of the weapon. Just my two cents. I will take this to my group that sounds like a reasonable solution and a way to somewhat level the rule, thanks. As for the goblins stats, yes I will post them when I am not at work and have his sheet infront of me
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-10-06, 11:39 PM	I'd still like to see Grifflen's stats, if they still exist.
Mobar2006 04-11-06, 01:14 AM	Rules like this are unfair to the players. Not because they are not evenly and justly applied to PC and NPC alike but, because they will always heart a PC in the long run. When a player gets a spiffy instakill you cross off one monster and move on. It doesn't impact the game much at all and the DM isn't hurt. At worst it requires some rework to the story he is setting up. When a PC dies from it the player looses something he has put work into and invested in the development of. Death is part of the game but it shouldn't be from some fluke roll. While I personally wouldn't use this rule in my games, but your statement about death shouldn't be from some fluke die roll I have to take issue with. PC death, except in very rare circumstances, is USSUALLY by some fluke die roll.
Vaelan 04-11-06, 01:36 AM	My question to my fellow DMs is would this be the kinda time you would let the players jump back (ddeus ex machina I think is the term I see here all the time) for this kind of an incident, or should I play it is and make the player roll up a new pc? (and the goblin is not a random encounter) If you let them redo the fight, you're essentially removing the rule.
SuperTKO 04-11-06, 02:20 AM	Rules like this are unfair to the players. Not because they are not evenly and justly applied to PC and NPC alike but, because they will always heart a PC in the long run. When a player gets a spiffy instakill you cross off one monster and move on. It doesn't impact the game much at all and the DM isn't hurt. At worst it requires some rework to the story he is setting up. When a PC dies from it the player looses something he has put work into and invested in the development of. Death is part of the game but it shouldn't be from some fluke roll. For one, I know it was a typo, but I found it kinda comical. But yeah, I took out that nasty critical hit feature in the games. I mean, when a player get's a critical hit, wow, the monster got a critical hit, whoo, one monster off the list, but when my players get critically hit, it might hurt them really bad, to the point where it could kill them. So I took it out critical hits entirely. But later, I noticed "when a monster gets, it's just a random monster, but when a PC get's hurt, if he gets hurt enough, they might die." so I later decided that there wasn't going to be any combat in the game at all, because I didn't want some "fluke of the dice" to happen. I'm sorry, but I never bought the whole "Any rule that has random circumstance effects the PCs more than the DM". If a PC were to roll a d20 a hundred times, and the DM rolls a d20 a hundred times, they'd have the same 1/20 chances to get a 1 or a 20. Yes, while it's true that in game terms, a monster is *just* a monster, and the player is an important role in the game. However, in the big grand scheme of things, a player is no different from a monster. They have the same chances to Critically Hit or Miss just like the players do, and when my players accept or deny a house rule, I make sure they are clear on this. I've had just as many monsters lose by the luck of the dice than I had players, and I've had monsters die by a lucky crit, just the same amount as they players critically miss or monsters crit.
kintire 04-11-06, 07:07 AM	I'm sorry, but I never bought the whole "Any rule that has random circumstance effects the PCs more than the DM". If a PC were to roll a d20 a hundred times, and the DM rolls a d20 a hundred times, they'd have the same 1/20 chances to get a 1 or a 20. There are two main ways of playing role playing games; tactical and role playing. In practice, of course, most people play a mix of both, but tending to one end or the other. This argument is sound for a tactical game, because these are basically a series of tactical (though not necessarily combat) situations that the PCs try to overcome using their skills. Losing a PC is bad, but another can be produced. At the more role playing end, however, its not. These games are about the PCs; their characters develop through the game and they drive the plots. If you lose a character you also lose all the plotlines associated with that character, and that can be just as annoying for the DM as the player. Characters should still be mortal, of course, but its very unsatisfying to have a developed and deep persona just die to a stray goblin through nothing but unavoidable bad luck.
Tormsskull 04-11-06, 07:49 AM	Actually, this is not true. Each INDIVIDUAL attack would have the same chance of rolling a T20. However, NPCs usually have more attacks than the PCs simply because there is usually more of them. Also, killing an NPC (unless it is a plot integral or a BBEG type guy) is a "Meh! Another dead guy." occurance. Knocking off a PC, on the other hand, is something else. Most NPCs you meet in combat are only there for that combat. PCs have to hang around more and get into more scrapes. Thus, the probability of a PC getting killed with a T20 is higher than that of a NPC getting spanked. This is true. However, how often do the ogres you just slaughtered have their friends come in and cast raise dead on them? It all depends on how permanent death is in your campaign, and what type of game you run. We always player 20-20-20 = death, it has only affected PCs maybe 6 times in the past 5 or so years through diff. campaigns.
KnaveofClubs 04-11-06, 11:12 AM	I have read some of the comments on the page and have my input on this topic. I as a DM, will let my players have total freedom. All I am is a ref. I stray away from killing npcs but don't give them exceptions. If you strive to let your PCs live they will take advantage of that. They will begin to do more reckless things knowing they won't suffer repurcussions. You have to add some threat in the game. NPCs have the some rights as players and are often underpowered in comparison to the party. So letting a PC die from something they could do turned back on them is no wrong. It was a freak, a really lucky shot.At least the players can rest easy knowing that triple 20s will never happen to the party again.