...omg. help [Archive] - Wizards Community

...omg. help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sergikins
09-23-05, 11:09 PM Well, this is a post more for my friend, who is running a campaign next tuesday.

It will be his first real time DMing. I was generally the DM in the campaigns he played. He often played a wizard, and when he found the warmage, a warmage. He is a true min maxer.

Anyway, one of the things he didn't like about my style was the fact that a Lv1 character didn't have a magic weapon or something, and how I slowly level the characters up (actually, according to guidelines of 13-14 ecounters) So he decided the following.
level 10 characters
49,000 GP (standard)
Any race or class from any splat book as long is exsists (ie, no custom classes.)

Now, a player who only plays D&D to portray the fact that he is a sucidial maniac, lets his friend draw up a character. that does 108d6 damage. at 10th level. Stone Giant Lv.4 Barbarian, Lv 1 Hulking Hurler. He also has a large long spear which he can throw a mile... and it is returning. All of this is by guidelines. My concern and the DMs concern is that this type of character will quickly make the game unenjoyable. Myself, an elven favored soul of Correlon Larthian 10, with the millenial chainmail relic. Another person is a Master of many forms 5, and the others I'm not sure about.

Personally, he thinks there is a way around the Hulking hurler, and we think a spell such as hold person or something similar could stop it. But the amount of damage dealt is still far too high (compared to the average Lv 10)Myself, if I DMd for the first time, I would use Core only, Level 1. Unfortunatly, the DM isn't prepared for this. His vison of a perfect game is about to be ruined.

So save me. What way can you suggest to help me convince the DM? (BTW, I know this is the wrong fourm. Just I think more DMs visit this page. I value their opinoin over any players.)
DraconsNighthawk
09-23-05, 11:27 PM *sigh* here is how it works. This is his first game, and sadily it seems he is about to get taken advantage of. However, like all DM, he needs to learn. How? by other players. Me thinks masters of many forms may just become the pun-pun of the group, which would be far scarier then any hulking hurler.

He may, and might call on the greatest power of any dm, smite player. The best thing you can do to help, is to rp your character, try not to smite every foe he makes. The others are going to do that as it is. He'll learn. Then, after your fellow pc smites the forty great worm dragons, give him your own suggestions on how to start. Let him learn is the best thing you can possibly do to a beginning DM.
UltimateReality
09-23-05, 11:31 PM So save me. What way can you suggest to help me convince the DM? (BTW, I know this is the wrong fourm. Just I think more DMs visit this page. I value their opinoin over any players.)
Hey, don't be dissin' players: without 'em, you aint running a game, yo. (And I say that having been on both sides of the screen multiple times.)

As for suggestions...well, there's nothing you can do but be there when he realizes his terrible mistake. Be available to offer advice and support -- when he asks or seeks input. If you notice areas he could improve, save it for between sessions, alone with him, and express it as constructively as possible. Ask him if he meant to do things a certain way, because you always thought it worked like Rule X in Book Y, page Z, but if he's houseruling it that's okay with you. Things like that.

I definitely second the guy who said "don't break his campaign". Be the model player you would love to have when you DM.
janusthinker
09-24-05, 01:31 AM There is indeed a way around this Hulking Hurler: the rules.

A Stone Giant is an 18th-level character without any class levels, so this Stone Giant/4th-level Barbarian/1st-level Hulking Hurler is a 23rd-level character, not a 10th. Tell the guy to crack open Savage Species and roll up a 10th-level Stone Giant; if, after looking at it, he still wants to do that, remind him that he cannot multiclass out of it until he's finished at 18th level.

The Stone Giant is still fun to play; I'm considering making one myself. It is not, however, the crazy brokenness of the Hulking Hurler, so you can at least delay that for a good long time 'til your friend gets the feel of DMing.
Solik
09-24-05, 02:01 AM I disagree. Being a model player will not help your DM, because other players are already set up to break his campaign. What you need to do is show him the wisdom of restricting character power -- by example.

That Hurler is nothing. Be a half-elf bard/evangelist with every Charisma and Diplomacy bonus you can get your hands on (feats, items, whatever). Watch as your party becomes IMMUNE to most combat.

If that doesn't impress, go use the 5th level variant on the Pun-pun build. When your character suddenly has boundless stats, deals boundless damage, casts any spell, has every feat, and has boundless DIVINE RANKS, the DM will forcibly become aware that A) powergaming is stupid because it can be done infinitely, and B) he needs to adjust his allowances.

Then calmly retrieve your favored soul build, and go on with life as normal, being the model player.
UltimateReality
09-24-05, 02:13 AM I disagree. Being a model player will not help your DM, because other players are already set up to break his campaign. What you need to do is show him the wisdom of restricting character power -- by example.The other players will already do this for him. Why should he jump on the bandwagon and intentionally try to bring this campaign down? It serves no positive purpose; the new DM certainly won't learn anything from it. Most likely he'll get frustrated or angry instead, and bad feelings in the group will multiply.

New DMs need support. As the most experienced DM of the group, you are the best one to offer him this guidance. Don't be a jerk to him.
Kratch
09-24-05, 04:11 AM not sure what the specifics are, but i'm sure a giant has more then 5 total hit dice and character level adjustments. heck, i'm sure he has more 5 of ether.

Remember: it's hit dice, plus level adjustement, plus class levels to determine estimated class level.
Solik
09-24-05, 10:16 AM My suggestion wasn't so much being a jerk as just demonstrating a point. He doesn't have to actually try to play the cheese bard / Pun-pun. Showing the DM the abilities once or twice are sufficient before quietly going back to his real PC.

If he does nothing up-front, he will become invisible as the DM struggles against the other cheese player (who isn't even doing a very good job of it). He won't be a model player; it'll be like he's not even there. Given that this DM is a powergamer himself, he will find nothing to appreciate from good behavior, at first.
Lazzmaniandevil
09-24-05, 10:19 AM This is one of the most common mistakes in DnD: taking the level adjustment as it is instead of adding it to the racial hit dice. Like others have said, this stone giant is a 23rd level character, so naturally, he will seems a little powerful in a 10th level group.

His ECL = 14 (racial HD) + 4 (LA) + 4 (barbarian) +1 (hulking hurler) = 23

By the way, if your DM insist to see a reference about the LA being added to the racial HD, its page 311 of monster manual.
ermedic
09-24-05, 10:27 AM not sure what the specifics are, but i'm sure a giant has more then 5 total hit dice and character level adjustments. heck, i'm sure he has more 5 of ether.

Remember: it's hit dice, plus level adjustement, plus class levels to determine estimated class level.
Correct. A stone giant has a level adjustment of +4 and 14 racial hit dice. Therefore, a stone giant has an ECL of 18 before taking any character classes. The stone giant cannot be allowed in a party of 10th level characters.
Sergikins
09-24-05, 01:17 PM thanks for the information. WE all thought that LA was the only modifier. Ok then, question.

What is pun/pun?
Steely Glint
09-24-05, 01:24 PM What is pun/pun?Pun-pun is a 12th level kobold egoist who uses infinite loops to be as powerful as the player desires... i.e. 20,000s in all his stats.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801
UltimateReality
09-24-05, 02:44 PM He doesn't have to actually try to play the cheese bard / Pun-pun. Showing the DM the abilities once or twice are sufficient before quietly going back to his real PC.Ah, okay...kind of like, point him towards some disgusting builds and the CharOp board to try and warn him beforehand? I'd honestly do it all before the game even starts.

I know a lot of it may be my personal style, but as a DM I always welcome feedback from my group, and suggestions from my former DMs even more. This player obviously has some ideas on how he's going to run his game, so there may not be much the OP can do besides sit back and watch him learn from experience. (I know I bit off more than I could chew with my first serious, long-term attempt at a campaign.)

If he does nothing up-front, he will become invisible as the DM struggles against the other cheese player (who isn't even doing a very good job of it).This is usually where you find a quiet time during a smoke break, in between games, or whatever, to bring the subject up. Probe him and asks how he thinks the group is doing so far. Then if he starts ranting, quietly offer a few suggestions. Refrain from "I told you so."
IceFractal
09-24-05, 03:29 PM I second that the other players will do a perfectly fine job of being overpowering without your help, and it would really work better for you to be the ideal player, and advocate a lower power campaign. This'll do two things:

1) It'll remind him that not all players are trying to be overpowered, so he won't "spring back" from everything-allowed to control-freak style, which sometimes happens.

2) And, when he gets sick of things being overpowered, he'll remember you as the guy who wasn't, and so he'll probably go with your suggestions on how to do it.

However, there is one exception. Some DMs really do like things to be super-overpowered. If that's the case, and after a number of games he seems fine with Hulking Hurlers and company, then you may want to either make your own overpowered character (at least make one that's defensively strong so that you can survive the encounters the others blast through), or stop coming to the game if it's really not your style.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sergikins 09-23-05, 11:09 PM	Well, this is a post more for my friend, who is running a campaign next tuesday. It will be his first real time DMing. I was generally the DM in the campaigns he played. He often played a wizard, and when he found the warmage, a warmage. He is a true min maxer. Anyway, one of the things he didn't like about my style was the fact that a Lv1 character didn't have a magic weapon or something, and how I slowly level the characters up (actually, according to guidelines of 13-14 ecounters) So he decided the following. level 10 characters 49,000 GP (standard) Any race or class from any splat book as long is exsists (ie, no custom classes.) Now, a player who only plays D&D to portray the fact that he is a sucidial maniac, lets his friend draw up a character. that does 108d6 damage. at 10th level. Stone Giant Lv.4 Barbarian, Lv 1 Hulking Hurler. He also has a large long spear which he can throw a mile... and it is returning. All of this is by guidelines. My concern and the DMs concern is that this type of character will quickly make the game unenjoyable. Myself, an elven favored soul of Correlon Larthian 10, with the millenial chainmail relic. Another person is a Master of many forms 5, and the others I'm not sure about. Personally, he thinks there is a way around the Hulking hurler, and we think a spell such as hold person or something similar could stop it. But the amount of damage dealt is still far too high (compared to the average Lv 10)Myself, if I DMd for the first time, I would use Core only, Level 1. Unfortunatly, the DM isn't prepared for this. His vison of a perfect game is about to be ruined. So save me. What way can you suggest to help me convince the DM? (BTW, I know this is the wrong fourm. Just I think more DMs visit this page. I value their opinoin over any players.)
DraconsNighthawk 09-23-05, 11:27 PM	sigh here is how it works. This is his first game, and sadily it seems he is about to get taken advantage of. However, like all DM, he needs to learn. How? by other players. Me thinks masters of many forms may just become the pun-pun of the group, which would be far scarier then any hulking hurler. He may, and might call on the greatest power of any dm, smite player. The best thing you can do to help, is to rp your character, try not to smite every foe he makes. The others are going to do that as it is. He'll learn. Then, after your fellow pc smites the forty great worm dragons, give him your own suggestions on how to start. Let him learn is the best thing you can possibly do to a beginning DM.
UltimateReality 09-23-05, 11:31 PM	So save me. What way can you suggest to help me convince the DM? (BTW, I know this is the wrong fourm. Just I think more DMs visit this page. I value their opinoin over any players.) Hey, don't be dissin' players: without 'em, you aint running a game, yo. (And I say that having been on both sides of the screen multiple times.) As for suggestions...well, there's nothing you can do but be there when he realizes his terrible mistake. Be available to offer advice and support -- when he asks or seeks input. If you notice areas he could improve, save it for between sessions, alone with him, and express it as constructively as possible. Ask him if he meant to do things a certain way, because you always thought it worked like Rule X in Book Y, page Z, but if he's houseruling it that's okay with you. Things like that. I definitely second the guy who said "don't break his campaign". Be the model player you would love to have when you DM.
janusthinker 09-24-05, 01:31 AM	There is indeed a way around this Hulking Hurler: the rules. A Stone Giant is an 18th-level character without any class levels, so this Stone Giant/4th-level Barbarian/1st-level Hulking Hurler is a 23rd-level character, not a 10th. Tell the guy to crack open Savage Species and roll up a 10th-level Stone Giant; if, after looking at it, he still wants to do that, remind him that he cannot multiclass out of it until he's finished at 18th level. The Stone Giant is still fun to play; I'm considering making one myself. It is not, however, the crazy brokenness of the Hulking Hurler, so you can at least delay that for a good long time 'til your friend gets the feel of DMing.
Solik 09-24-05, 02:01 AM	I disagree. Being a model player will not help your DM, because other players are already set up to break his campaign. What you need to do is show him the wisdom of restricting character power -- by example. That Hurler is nothing. Be a half-elf bard/evangelist with every Charisma and Diplomacy bonus you can get your hands on (feats, items, whatever). Watch as your party becomes IMMUNE to most combat. If that doesn't impress, go use the 5th level variant on the Pun-pun build. When your character suddenly has boundless stats, deals boundless damage, casts any spell, has every feat, and has boundless DIVINE RANKS, the DM will forcibly become aware that A) powergaming is stupid because it can be done infinitely, and B) he needs to adjust his allowances. Then calmly retrieve your favored soul build, and go on with life as normal, being the model player.
UltimateReality 09-24-05, 02:13 AM	I disagree. Being a model player will not help your DM, because other players are already set up to break his campaign. What you need to do is show him the wisdom of restricting character power -- by example.The other players will already do this for him. Why should he jump on the bandwagon and intentionally try to bring this campaign down? It serves no positive purpose; the new DM certainly won't learn anything from it. Most likely he'll get frustrated or angry instead, and bad feelings in the group will multiply. New DMs need support. As the most experienced DM of the group, you are the best one to offer him this guidance. Don't be a jerk to him.
Kratch 09-24-05, 04:11 AM	not sure what the specifics are, but i'm sure a giant has more then 5 total hit dice and character level adjustments. heck, i'm sure he has more 5 of ether. Remember: it's hit dice, plus level adjustement, plus class levels to determine estimated class level.
Solik 09-24-05, 10:16 AM	My suggestion wasn't so much being a jerk as just demonstrating a point. He doesn't have to actually try to play the cheese bard / Pun-pun. Showing the DM the abilities once or twice are sufficient before quietly going back to his real PC. If he does nothing up-front, he will become invisible as the DM struggles against the other cheese player (who isn't even doing a very good job of it). He won't be a model player; it'll be like he's not even there. Given that this DM is a powergamer himself, he will find nothing to appreciate from good behavior, at first.
Lazzmaniandevil 09-24-05, 10:19 AM	This is one of the most common mistakes in DnD: taking the level adjustment as it is instead of adding it to the racial hit dice. Like others have said, this stone giant is a 23rd level character, so naturally, he will seems a little powerful in a 10th level group. His ECL = 14 (racial HD) + 4 (LA) + 4 (barbarian) +1 (hulking hurler) = 23 By the way, if your DM insist to see a reference about the LA being added to the racial HD, its page 311 of monster manual.
ermedic 09-24-05, 10:27 AM	not sure what the specifics are, but i'm sure a giant has more then 5 total hit dice and character level adjustments. heck, i'm sure he has more 5 of ether. Remember: it's hit dice, plus level adjustement, plus class levels to determine estimated class level. Correct. A stone giant has a level adjustment of +4 and 14 racial hit dice. Therefore, a stone giant has an ECL of 18 before taking any character classes. The stone giant cannot be allowed in a party of 10th level characters.
Sergikins 09-24-05, 01:17 PM	thanks for the information. WE all thought that LA was the only modifier. Ok then, question. What is pun/pun?
Steely Glint 09-24-05, 01:24 PM	What is pun/pun?Pun-pun is a 12th level kobold egoist who uses infinite loops to be as powerful as the player desires... i.e. 20,000s in all his stats. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801
UltimateReality 09-24-05, 02:44 PM	He doesn't have to actually try to play the cheese bard / Pun-pun. Showing the DM the abilities once or twice are sufficient before quietly going back to his real PC.Ah, okay...kind of like, point him towards some disgusting builds and the CharOp board to try and warn him beforehand? I'd honestly do it all before the game even starts. I know a lot of it may be my personal style, but as a DM I always welcome feedback from my group, and suggestions from my former DMs even more. This player obviously has some ideas on how he's going to run his game, so there may not be much the OP can do besides sit back and watch him learn from experience. (I know I bit off more than I could chew with my first serious, long-term attempt at a campaign.) If he does nothing up-front, he will become invisible as the DM struggles against the other cheese player (who isn't even doing a very good job of it).This is usually where you find a quiet time during a smoke break, in between games, or whatever, to bring the subject up. Probe him and asks how he thinks the group is doing so far. Then if he starts ranting, quietly offer a few suggestions. Refrain from "I told you so."
IceFractal 09-24-05, 03:29 PM	I second that the other players will do a perfectly fine job of being overpowering without your help, and it would really work better for you to be the ideal player, and advocate a lower power campaign. This'll do two things: 1) It'll remind him that not all players are trying to be overpowered, so he won't "spring back" from everything-allowed to control-freak style, which sometimes happens. 2) And, when he gets sick of things being overpowered, he'll remember you as the guy who wasn't, and so he'll probably go with your suggestions on how to do it. However, there is one exception. Some DMs really do like things to be super-overpowered. If that's the case, and after a number of games he seems fine with Hulking Hurlers and company, then you may want to either make your own overpowered character (at least make one that's defensively strong so that you can survive the encounters the others blast through), or stop coming to the game if it's really not your style.