Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Talmariel 04-23-05, 01:11 AM	I wanted to drop a little story down for all those DMs struggling with how to approach a touchy subject with a player. For that matter, this applies to pretty much anyone trying to approach a touchy subject. In our campaign, our DM invited a player that nobody wanted to play, without asking any of the players. This player is not particularly enjoyable to hang around normally, but at the gaming table his various undesirable traits become glaring and painful to bear witness to. He doesn't understand how to play an effective character in a role-playing sense, or a roll-playing one. In short, he is every bad quality a player could have rolled into a single person. Now, despite all these disparaging remarks, he's also an old friend of myself and my group's. He has a few character flaws, but outside of a gaming scenario they are either inconsequential or easily ignored (at least with practice). We've all collectively wanted to see him grow and come into his own, and so an odd truce has silently been struck. I expect many people have a friend like this, where they more than tolerate him, but don't quite entirely like him, or at least like his company. Anyway, our DM has made a habit of inviting said individual to all the games, much to our collective grumblings. After speaking at length with the DM to try and curtail his exhuberant generosity, I decided there was only one solution - if anything was going to be done, I was going to have to do it. So, we have a setup here for a very uncomfortable subject, basically telling a player that they are not wanted at the table, and also trying to maintain an accord with this player outside of the gaming table. How did I do it? I just plain told him. The moral of the story is, if you have a problem with someone at your gaming table, it can be addressed directly. I wasn't mean, and I wasn't vindictive. I set aside frustrations, and spoke to him in a manner that was direct, blunt, and honest, but not hurtful. It can be done. The person in question is human, and while he was sensitive about his various shortcomings (as we all are), he appreciated the candor. Worth noting, I did not make a public spectacle of this conversation. It was done after a game, while everyone had stepped out the door to caravan to our respective homes. The end result was that he requested to be removed from the story in-game, and that he would stop playing. It's a temporary situation, with the potential for him to return, but hopefully there can be further honest discourse concerning his ability to contribute to our game, rather than detract from it. So for all the DMs and players out there who don't know how to deal with a sensitive subject, the best policy really is honesty. Give the issue at hand some thought, and determine what the real problem is apart from any emotional content. Speak to the person as privately as can be done, but in a non-confrontational setting (such as post-game, like I did). Come to them as a friend and fellow gamer, and show respect through your honesty. If you are dealing with a reasonable person, they will likely understand and appreciate your consideration for privacy, but more importantly that you do not try to protect their feelings. If they aren't reasonable... well, there's always physical removal. :D
Hathorym 04-23-05, 12:54 PM	Out of curiousity... who's next on the list? In my experience, once you remove a gaming sore, you need someone to fill that role in the group. Also, were you certain you were performing the will of the group, or just of yourself? What I'm saying is that obviously the DM had no issue with him... DnD is a game, oft times allowing a person to be someone they are not. The game could have been the only release of expression this individual had, because if *you* find him annoying, being his "friend" and all, do you really think he's going to find another place to go? So, you've managed to remove his sense of belonging, to damage what fragile self-esteem he had remaining (I can guarantee he's quite aware of what others think) and have proven that your friendship is only negotiable on terms set by you - which is not a friendship at all. Just admit you don't like the guy, and be done with it. Dismiss any faux compassion you attempted to portray, because you're not fooling anyone. It'll be a better situation for everyone in that way.
Lxarth 04-23-05, 01:13 PM	All I have to say is F:censored:k off Hathorym. Your post is an obvious attempt at a troll.
Hathorym 04-23-05, 01:22 PM	All I have to say is F:censored:k off Hathorym. Your post is an obvious attempt at a troll. I'm sorry you feel that way. Some people play this game because it's the only place in this world they can be remotely accepted. I was only offering counter-point. If that is considered trolling, then I misunderstood what discussion boards were all about.
Stafir Ortnev 04-23-05, 01:27 PM	Let me put it this way Hath. What you said..is about as non-flamebait is as what Lxarth said...you were just more wordy. Its obvious you were insulting the OP, and trying to pick a fight.
Hathorym 04-23-05, 01:34 PM	Let me put it this way Hath. What you said..is about as non-flamebait is as what Lxarth said...you were just more wordy. Its obvious you were insulting the OP, and trying to pick a fight. Oh. It wasn't my intention to pick a fight, at all. I will admit to having low tolerance for faux sentiment, and a lot of the OP's post seemed to say, "Congratulate me, I made some poor schmuck feel bad!" However, I can see how you, not knowing my posting style, would assume that my sole purpose was to belittle the OP. I actually had more concern with the feelings of the person booted out, than the OP, and perhaps that was where I went wrong.
Thanatos02 04-23-05, 02:27 PM	Having been in this situation before, I'm almost certain it's not "Congratulate me, I made some poor schmuck feel bad!" so much as it's "Sometimes this comes up, and when it does, honesty is just as important as compassion." There are a lot of people that are ok to hang out with, alright to talk to, but after a little while, they just get on my nerves. Even if they arn't horrible people, sometimes they make the gaming experiance worse for everyone. Should my group and I be forced to tolerate some poor shmuck just because the gaming table is the only place he feels accepted? No, it's not our job to be babysitters or shrinks. We're here for a game, and players who make it worse for everyone else just arn't welcome. I've had this happen to me, actually. I have a really good friend whose company I appreciate. However, when I run a game, he's problematic. He argues with me about the game when he's got no real basis, he bullies the other players, hijacks the plot, sulks when he doesn't get his way, and generally makes a nuisance of himself. It constantly made the other players irate, and he killed several games. Now I just don't invite him to the table anymore, but I've instituted a vote for players. We have 3 core players now, and whenever a new player is invited after the game, I ask the other players to ok or dismiss him (while he's not in the room.). If any player disputes the newbie, I give him a call and explain that we really can't ask him back. Before you get up in arms, I explain the vote ahead of time and a player has only been dismissed once in several years. It's nothing personal, but the group comes first, and honestly is almost always preferred to duplicity.
green_yawgmoth 04-23-05, 02:30 PM	Just because you're riddled with teen angst doesn't mean everyone is, Hath. Some people play D&D because it's something fun to do on a saturday afternoon/night. Did you even read the post? He was frank, honest, and calm. He talked to the guy after everyone had left so he wouldn't have to worry about becoming a spectacle. And what happened? The kid in question understood that he was playing in such a way as to be disruptive to everyone else's enjoyment, and requested to be removed from the story in-game. He even thanked Talmariel for being honest with him. This isn't "Dark Dungeons", he isn't going to start crying and hang himself because he was asked to leave. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Hathorym 04-23-05, 02:49 PM	We do the same thing, Thanatos. We explain the voting system, and after the first session, we vote based on our first impressions. It rather simplistic, but it has saved us a lot of grief, I believe. and "teen angst"? Oh, how I wish!
Guy Humual 04-23-05, 02:52 PM	Without knowing the poor social outcast that's getting the boot I have to say that I share some of Hathorym's concerns. I feel that kicking someone out of a group should always be a last resort. I think Talmariel’s method of kicking the player was the right one. Hats off to having a talk that was "direct, blunt, and honest, but not hurtful" this is how it should be done. I'm just not sure that I fully understand why he was kicked out. Excluding someone because they're "uncool" just isn't something I can give a big thumb's up to. When you say "nobody wanted to play" does that include the DM? Why did he invite him then? Please help us (me and Hathorym) understand.
Hathorym 04-23-05, 02:54 PM	I think I need to hire Guy to be my personal translator. That's exactly what I was trying to say, but I'm so gruff about those sort of things. Tact has always been one of my weakest traits.
Talmariel 04-23-05, 03:11 PM	Hey, Hathorym. Methinks some others in this thread were a bit rude, so I wanted to address your concern specifically. I'm very certain it was the will of the group, and not just myself. I've talked to every member of the group, both individually and all at once, and we all agreed something needed to be done. We've been playing D&D for over a decade now, with this player, and in all this time he hasn't significantly improved. I'm not a psychologist, but I actually think his participation in the games was more detrminental to his self-esteem than if he were to not play. He usually feels defensive and the target of hostility because he often isn't able to role-play a character in a manner constructive to the story (or conducive to reason), and he always gets rules wrong. This leads to a lot of eye-rolling, groaning, grumbling, and having to always tell him he's wrong. The few times he is both a wecome addition to the table, and enjoys himself, are far outweighed by the opposite outcome. My compassion for my friend is not faux, as you put it. He's got a lot of problems, and they collectively make it hard to enjoy his company sometimes. If I had no compassion for him, I would have amused myself by verbally shredding him in front of the rest of my friends, rather than talking to him privately. He has other issues in his normal life that I won't address here, and he needs to deal with those. Whether he does that or not is up to him, but he has been impeding the fun of the rest of us, and the game is about having fun. Sometimes there is a problem player, and it is never a comfortable situation to deal with. My story was intended to share how I addressed such a situation, and that its outcome appears positive. Yes, I think he was quite aware of what others thought. I think it was more harmful to talk behind his back than to his face, because it showed a lack of respect. I think that is the more harmful behavior, and we were collectively carrying on with such antics because we didn't know how to tell him directly. I decided I'd had enough of it, discussed it with my fellow players, and by agreement I faced him. If he knew it already, than the only new news was that someone was being honest with him for once. If he didn't, than hopefully he learned something. I expect the former. If I managed to further damage his self-esteem, than frankly he was basing his sense of self-worth on untruths, and I don't care how much you want to argue if it was fair or just of me to try and destroy that, I think I would be a poor friend indeed allowing him to continue his life that way. I won't live his life for him, but I can at least try to point him in a direction that will enable him to examine his own life and re-evaluate if necessary. Sometimes it helps to step back, and often we can't do it on our own. And also frankly, letting him continue playing and pretending he wasn't causing problems is called pity, and being a pity friend is one of the lowest forms of disrespect one person can show another. I hope that answers your concerns, Hathorym. No ill will regarding your trepidacious post, I'd rather clarify what went on and why I think it was a good move. I'm hoping this post can serve as a helpful tip on dealing with problem players. Ignoring them is like the old adage about the elephant in the living room. It doesn't help anyone to just pretend it isn't there. Dealing with them is the hardest thing to do, but if done properly it can be done in the spirit of good will. Edit: Also worth pointing out, I did not tell him to leave the group. I told him our grievances with him, and how he was causing problems. He left the game of his own volition, which was a move that earned him a fair piece of respect in my eyes, and I think in the eyes of the rest of the group. Edit #2: Hope that clarification helps you also, Guy. :)
Hathorym 04-23-05, 03:41 PM	Thanks Tal, on many levels.
WCH 04-23-05, 03:41 PM	We had a player at first who totally wasn't into the game, and not really into any of the stuff we as friends did anymore, but wanted to use the game to hang around us, essentially. Had he actually tried to play it could've been fine, as he's creative and intelligent enough to do it, but he'd just create characters out of random media (a paladin named Nemo and a wizard named Dr. Phil come to mind), not RP them at all, take no interest in reading the books/learning the rules, and basically just went along with what everyone else was doing, except for having a strong desire to do stupid silly things which screw up the plot. So what'd we do? I just stopped telling him when we had something planned. Not saying "Sorry, you're not invited," but just not mentioning it to him. A couple times he asked if we had any D&D plans, and I'd mention something in a few weeks without giving specifics, but ultimately we just didn't talk about it and it was fine. There's no point in insulting someone if by ignoring the problem you can make it go away. :P
Guy Humual 04-23-05, 05:11 PM	Now I feel better. :D Sounds like you did everything right.
Talmariel 04-23-05, 05:18 PM	Hath, Guy, thanks for the approval. :) It's not a course I prefer, because I'd rather patch things up than even suggest someone leave the table, but this had been going on for far too long. Sometimes it comes down to the last resort, so to all the other folks who are on their last straw, there's actually a good way to handle it. :)
fractal 04-23-05, 05:37 PM	So what'd we do? I just stopped telling him when we had something planned. Not saying "Sorry, you're not invited," but just not mentioning it to him. A couple times he asked if we had any D&D plans, and I'd mention something in a few weeks without giving specifics, but ultimately we just didn't talk about it and it was fine. There's no point in insulting someone if by ignoring the problem you can make it go away. :P Of course, it's possible that if you had explained the problem to him, he could have changed his behavior. Missing out on this possibility is a risk you take by not communicating with people. Personally, I prefer Talmariel's solution, difficult and awkward though it can be.
Shaken, not Stunned 04-23-05, 07:21 PM	We had a player at first who totally wasn't into the game, and not really into any of the stuff we as friends did anymore, but wanted to use the game to hang around us, essentially. Had he actually tried to play it could've been fine, as he's creative and intelligent enough to do it, but he'd just create characters out of random media (a paladin named Nemo and a wizard named Dr. Phil come to mind), not RP them at all, take no interest in reading the books/learning the rules, and basically just went along with what everyone else was doing, except for having a strong desire to do stupid silly things which screw up the plot. So what'd we do? I just stopped telling him when we had something planned. Not saying "Sorry, you're not invited," but just not mentioning it to him. A couple times he asked if we had any D&D plans, and I'd mention something in a few weeks without giving specifics, but ultimately we just didn't talk about it and it was fine. There's no point in insulting someone if by ignoring the problem you can make it go away. :P I'm not saying this out of any enimity towards you, but that is a pretty crappy thing to do to someone. Have the balls to say something to the guy. Do you like the person who tells you your fly is down, or the guy who just ignores it and lets five more people spot your mistake? (see how I had that nice theme going the whole time?)
Lady Jotaro 04-23-05, 07:41 PM	I was in a game like your Tal that had someone who made you grid your teeth but the DM kept inviting him anyway. But instead of ditching the player, we ditched the DM and started a new game free of painful players and "Im in charge and thats the final word" DMs. The annoying player was never the wiser but the DM learned a valuble lesson.
Talmariel 04-24-05, 01:24 AM	We considered starting a new game, but it was a possibility that was shot down as soon as it was brought up. We were in a unique position. The player in question had started play with the group, and with an uncharacteristically tolerable character to boot. Ultimately, his schedule made it too cumbersome to play, so he dropped out. We filled the player gap and moved on. Our campaign reached new heights for our group, as we began at 1st level and had made it up to 16th at the time, when our DM invited the player back. The DM tried to take the "I'm the DM and it's my game" stance, which we weren't having any of, but at this point we had aims at 20th level - a goal hitherto unreached in over a decade of D&D - so we couldn't just quit. Anyway, the final result was the one I spelled out. It was time to pull the plug on the policy of avoidance. Part of why I started this thread is because of the same policy that a couple of posters here have stated, and that I suspect many more carry. Avoiding the problem player isn't the answer. It works in the short term, even if that short term is the course of more than ten years, but the problem must be confronted and resolved. I concur with the analogy of having one's fly down - you'd rather someone call you on it than continue a parade of public embarassment.