...Yes waiter, I'd like a to reserve a table for a party of 9 [Archive] - Wizards Community

...Yes waiter, I'd like a to reserve a table for a party of 9 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Grundgen
08-10-05, 10:13 PM Ok, I'm posative that many DM's here have much more experience in this area...Excuse the lame pun, but I've got a party of 9 coming to dinner, and I'm not sure how much food to prepare?!

In the past, I've always lucked out and DM'd for the classic PC party of 4...no problems, CR's are nicely built to make such dungeoncrafting a breeze. Even when we played 2ed I always had nice compact little groups of 4 eager to bash orcs and threaten inn-keepers...again no problem. There wasnt much table-talk, people paid attention to the NPC's and their long drawn out dramatic speeches (well, ok...mostly), and seemingly all was good.

Well, now it seems our group has jumped to 8-9 PC's and we will be playing a campaign I created about a year ago. I originally made it for approx 4 PC's (go figure) and now, that just wont do. Do any "big group" DM's have a good rule of thumb for the kind of encounter levels a group so large should be facing? Should 50% of the encounters be of an EL 1-4 higher than the party? Or since there are double the PC's, is double the EL ok? I'm sure I will find out quickly what seems to work, but I am hoping to glean a few tips and tricks for keeping myself sane.

I've been playing for about 11 years...I've DM'd a lot of games...just nothing so large. I'm afraid of 15min rounds and repeating room descriptions half a dozon times...(In the situation, it would be too rude for me to turn anyone down, so I'd like to try and avoid that option) Words of wisdom?
Thomar_of_Uointer
08-10-05, 10:28 PM Do you have problems with having two medium gaming groups instead of one big one?
Didge
08-10-05, 10:48 PM Having been a player in a situation like this (although never DM'd THAT many) before I can offer some words of wisdom from a player's perspective.

1) If at all possible, have someone act as a co-DM. God I know I'll get flamed for that one, but with this many folks there needs to be a second pair of eyes and ears. This helps because then when dealing with one set of questions the co-DM can answer others. This works exceptionally well if one of you is good at storyline/backdrops/fluff/etc. and the other is good at number crunching/rules stuff.

2) If the 1st suggestion can't be done then try this. Assign each person a specific job while at the table. Player1 is in charge of coordinating initiatives from the players and putting them in order. Player2 keeps track of spells up, durations, etc. and on whom. Player3 is in charge of checking any ruling that you're not 100% on but don't have time to stop and check. You see? By assigning each player a role not only will they be more active they won't wain between their turns. Each one is in charge of something that needs to be addressed and ensures they're paying attention.

3) Limit excess talk, unless in character. I know this will be a hard one. Everyone comes around the table for fun and to bs. But with that many people you won't be able to get the amount of gaming done that a 4 player party can do.

4) Limit the amount of time given to each person in combat. With that many people they should have ample time to prepare what they're about to do. Speaking of which, any spell caster should have their PHB open to the page of the spell that they're about to cast. THis helps you (if you're not that familiar with the spell) and also ensures that the player knows what their spell does and not what I've seen countless times. The, "What, since when did that spell do that? I've always played it the other way." excuse cannot be used here.

5) Encourage them to split up into 2 groups. I know that you can't do it for this game, but think about it. Ask them to work in and out of the game on a solution that will benefit everyone. Explain the idea of trying to DM that many folks. If they're good players they'll help out too. You don't even have to have it happen the first game session but might be an overlapping plot for several of the folks to wander off and do their own thing. It is especially cool if you work it so that things happen in the same timeframe so if someone wants to switch groups they can without it being several months behind or ahead of the other group.

5) As far as CR's it depends on their builds. If it is standard, I'd say start off with a CR 3 for a group of 8 level 1's. Especially at lower levels PC's are fragile. THough I'd say an average of a CR+2 would be a good average instead of the normal CR. Also see how they work together and what tactics they use. When I prepare an adventure/encounter for my group I take everyone's stats and run a mock combat. I assume average rolls/damage/most likely spells used (i.e. ones they typically have memorized)/etc and just look at the raw numbers. Typically I can do this with my group and get an average of 1 person unconscious/dead and that's a good indicator. My players are very versed in tactics (except 1) so they can manage an encounter where I had run it and one had ended up unconscious and turn it into a hard fought, but everyone still standing. Again, this is what I do, but it comes down to knowing your players.
Grundgen
08-10-05, 11:21 PM -I'm not sure if splitting up the group is possible...it took some work just finding one day I could wrangle from the GF and 'nerd out' ;)

-Didge
I really like your suggestion #2...I hadnt thought of it, but it definately makes sense to get some help while juggling all those numbers. I read somewhere on a message board about an interesting use of a 3-minute sand timer for cinematic type scene and adding a sense of urgency to chases and the like...I planned on giving it a go, and maybe can also issue that in effect for everyone's turn as well...I sure hope that doesnt mean everyone takes the whole time, but could hopefully give a visual reminder of going quickly.
Dartanel
08-10-05, 11:35 PM Els for a double size party are +2, not double. Although doubling the numbers of enemies of a normal EL is usually a good solution.

Try to avoid individual high CR monsters against a large party. You generally end up with a dicey proposition. The single monster will either obliterate PCs with an ability of higher level then they can handle, or the PCs will obliterate the monster in short order by sheer numbers.

I.E. a balanced encounter for 4 10th level PCs is, of course, an EL 10. A balanced encounter for 8 10th level PCs is, by extension, an EL 12. Now, using a single CR 12 is a risky proposition, as I've mentioned above. A better idea is a CR 10 and an EL 10 of lesser minions.
Ravenseye
08-10-05, 11:39 PM These work even in smaller groups.

1) Timed rounds. With 9 people they better know what they're doing when their turn comes. If you say..."Ok, Regdar you're up." and he says "um...wait let me look in my players handbook for a second" you say "Ok, Regdar pulls out his handbook, that's considered his move turn, and reading it is his action. I"ll be nice and say it doesn't draw an attack of opportunity." to which he says "Hey wait!" by which time you're saying "OK Mystra you're up."

Let them know before hand you'll be doing this though. ONe of the big drags at games, even small ones is the humming and hawing. If your'e in combat, you have to think fast.

2) It's a bit nerdy and I don't generally use this in games but it might work for larger groups. To cut down on the BS'ing factor make everything said at the table 'in character'. If someone says "Hey Lothar, you shoudl just chop off this guy's head with an axe" you say "The merchant looks positively frightened by you saying that, and runs into the back of the shop screaming." The only way they can talk out of character is to put their hand on their chest, or to step away from the table. I don't do this at normal games because it's one of the few times my friends and I get to hang out.

3) Tools. Not powertools, but things to help you keep track of the little things. Maybe if you don't want a helper, then have each characters name on a slip of paper, that you can keep track of initiative, or write it down every combat. Or put in an optional rule that you're going to role intitative once for the whole session, so make it a good one.

...

I think that if you keep combat cracking along, and keep the chatter at a minimum you should be ok.
Pyritefoolsgold
08-11-05, 04:31 AM I would also suggest making the game rather epic. Nine people are going to be distracting, so the game should be more than "lets kills some orcs." With this size of a party they can split into smaller groups and take down strongholds and enemies that a smaller group never could. Try and keep them on the edges of their seats, and they won't gab so much OOC.
Antioch
08-11-05, 04:56 AM In my current campaign we are running with two DMs and eight players. As has been suggesting, enforcing a rule that people must stay in character or suffer the wrath of reduced XP works very well, as even with two DMs things can get out of hand. If at all possible, encourage the players to converse between themselves, interacting and learning more about eachother (this really wont do in combat, in which case have them figure out what they are doing ahead of time, odds are they will have enough time to figure it out).
If the game was designed for a party of roughly half the size, simply increase the number of critters per encounter, and in the case of one-on-party battles, boost the levels.
Grundgen
08-11-05, 10:21 AM Some fantastic ideas!!

-Ravenseye
I love the idea of having "book-looking" count as a move/standard action...I hope with the amount of people at the table, everyone will have time to have looked up what they need to BEFORE its their turn. Even "OOC talk" idea makes a whole lot of sense to me...I think people would make fun of me if I brought it up with the rowdy crowd I have playing, but I think I'm going to use that at some point. Maybe steal an idea from "lord of the flies" and only when you're holding the plush dragon can you talk out of character lol who knows

-Dartanel
Thats an awesome rule of thumb and a great tip about the CR 10 and EL 10...that makes perfect sense.

(stupid browser closed down...I hate losing a longer post :weep: I'll just break it up as I remember)

How to handle mapping? Or room descriptions and NPC interactions? Should they be more abbreviated and to the point?
Ravenseye
08-11-05, 12:50 PM How to handle mapping? Or room descriptions and NPC interactions? Should they be more abbreviated and to the point?

if you're not going to be using miniatures I'd recomend that you pick out the best mapper of the group to map for them. As far as descriptions and interactions I'd say do it normally. If you voice NPC's normally and have dialogue, then do it. If there is dialogue occuring and not all the PC"s are there, they have to be quiet, or go to another room if they want to jib jab. I wouldn't abbreviate them if that's not what you normally do. Your friends are there to play, not to have the D&D light version.

If you're using miniatures, I hope you have a big table. I'd recomend that each miniature is unique enough to know which player is which, and get a nice big base sheet of paper. They have these big 3x4 sheets of grid paper that are perfect at stores like Staples or another office supply store. Things that normally go up on a wall, or on an easel. You could get that and just lay it on the table and draw out the rooms, ripping off pages as you go.

Or you could make your own sheets but do them half size because of the number of players. have 5' be a half inch intead of an inch to give you more space, or use a smaller board.

One other thing I'd say is that you should lay things out at first. You're there to have fun, but it's a group activity and just like if you were all playing together on a club soccer team, if you're on the sideline then you can chatter, if you're playign the game, you're playing the game. I'd really limit converstations at the table to in game. They want to chat? They can do it while getting a beer, and can be called back if anything important happens. I"d also set up a rule that, particularly when you're describing rooms or in NPC interactions, people have to shut up and listen or you'll be repeating yourself constantly. If it gets bad set up a rule that if you raise your hand, they have to shut up and listen.

I hope you have a good session. The key I think is to allow the game to progress just like there were 4 people there. The more people at the table though the more you have to keep the non-game stuff to a minimum. The most important rule though....

If you're trying to get them to open the door to some chamber, so that they can initiate combat with the goblins inside (or whatever) but someone tells a joke or mentions something everyone is interested in, and people are laughing and having fun, join in...You're there to have fun...If the game gets put on hold for a minute, then enjoy it. When there is a pause though, be ready to say 'ok back to business'.
Elric Of Melnibone
08-11-05, 05:25 PM 15 min rounds is insane!!! Make the player do the work.

Express monsters attacks vs armour in terms of a saving throw using the following equation : 20-AC=Base Armour Save. Change the monsters attack base into a negative vs thier save. Now the players roll thier attacks against themselves ( rolling a 1 is a threat). Have the monsters all go on the same iniative. Make the players roll the damage they take. All you need to do is dicatate who gets attacked and record the results.

Sometimes you will need to pin down what everyone is doing in a given round and the best way to do that is to have everyone write down what they are doing round by round on a character action log. Otherwise you will have players trying to do too many things in one round and you wont remember whos doing what. This is also a good way of tracking how long spells are working.

AN interesting idea is to plant one evil character amoungst the group of good characters...every player he kills has to roll up a new evil character (until half the group is evil). After the evil one has been discovered have the groups split and have each group go after the same objective keeping track on a timeline.
Traevanon
08-11-05, 07:59 PM Regularly running a group of 12 I have these suggestions:

When assigning jobs to players, Initiative tracker is the #1 priority. That's half your work. Someone to keep a tally of Monster damage and conditions will help as well. As for the rest, they are usually more trouble than they are worth. So, pick two helpers and make sure they are people that wouldnt get involved otherwise.

Second, regarding EL: I use this chart and it works fairly well:

1-4 players = x1 number of monsters or +0 CR and x1 treasure
5-6 players = x1.5 number of monsters or +1 CR (to all monsters) and x1 treasure
7-8 players = x2 number of monsters or +2 CR (to all) and x1.5 treasure
9-10 players = x2.5 number of monsters or +3 CR (to all) and x1.5 treasure
11-12 players = x3 number of monsters or +4 CR (to all) and x2 treasure

and so forth.

Lastly, keeping the confusion down is important, but equally important is keeping everyone involved and entertained. Be constantly on the lookout for people just sitting there being polite and saying nothing and make sure to involve them otherwise your 12 person game goes back to a 4 person game pretty fast.

Some house rules for large groups:
No leadership
No animate dead
No pets that arent specifically allowed by class features
If an NPC must join the party he does nothing in combat

I enjoy my large group. With a little experience I think you will too.
jejyman
08-11-05, 08:53 PM wow those are all amazing suggestions!! I had my first dm exp be with a group of 12!!! it was insane and i did split them to 2 groups, but that was still a hassle, if only i knew then what i know now.
Grundgen
08-11-05, 09:37 PM Wow, there have definately been some great responses...there wasnt a single bad idea. When you guys talk about splitting into 2 groups, do you mean a more physical split like different times playing...or run a battle for one group, then run another for the other?

Or is the split more abstract? How do you coordinate 2 groups? They fight in the same battles, but each foursome shares their own cut of the exp?
koragnar
08-11-05, 09:38 PM Well If I was in your situation I woudl have some sort of castle or mystical secret place they're trying to get into. Then have puzzle with some kind of door gaurding it. And there would be like 8 spaces on the ground which would temporarily warp each of them to their own room, where there would be a monster or a small challenge or puzzle relative to their class. It would go by quicker because its alot easier for them to think of what they're doing when its 1 on 1 with a monster or something like that. Then when theyre all finished with the room by themselves, theyre warped back and the huge door opens to something really REALLY nastyly monsterous. Theyd have to work together ( and maybe each use some type of item they got in their room? ) and after killing the big bady they would get the artifact they were looking for or something.

oor whatever. Lol ideas just start to flow.
nlumsden
08-11-05, 10:01 PM This tool makes figuring out the encounters much easier.

Encounter EL & XP Calculator (http://nazaire.home.insightbb.com/calculator.htm)

Divy up the tasks and time the rounds. One thing I have changed in big parties is to give the party a couple of minutes before we begin the round to discuss their actions, then they just spit them out as we resolve the round - it is much easier than putting a timelimit on each player - this can get long and drawn out. I find that 3-5 minutes to "make a plan" speeds up combat significantly when dealing with a large party.
Grundgen
08-11-05, 10:27 PM That is an awesome calculator... :eek:
FriendoftheDork
08-12-05, 01:16 AM I usually avoid sizes larger than 6 at all costs... even 5 may too crowded at times even though it usually works.

So I say cull the herd a bit and retain the best players. Encourage one of them to make his own group with the rest. That should makes sessions SO much more fun.
Traevanon
08-12-05, 07:22 AM This tool makes figuring out the encounters much easier.

Encounter EL & XP Calculator (http://nazaire.home.insightbb.com/calculator.htm)

That is a nice tool, but often I need to modify the encounter right at the table and I have no computer there. I do have my handy chart though.
Patryn Runner
08-12-05, 09:38 AM Been here before. No matter how good a DM you are, 1 DM and 9 PCs just isn't going to work. With so many people gameplay is going to be bogged down unbelieveably and if its not, your players suck. From a past experience with 8 players, just figuring out the initiative in the battle sequence was painful, let alone having multiple people act on the same initiative roll while some players are holding their actions and others are trying to move to flanking positions and don't even get me started on spell/psionic power use.
All of the suggestions above are good, but the best (and simplest) one is to make two groups. This way you won't be sending people half way across the resturaunt to ask other tables if they'll be needing all of their chairs.

PR-
nlumsden
08-13-05, 01:34 AM I'm going to have to disagree. Our big group is awesome. It may help that they are all 20- and 30-somethings, but I wouldn't trade it to go back to a 4 person group. It's just different. More to handle? Yes. Doable? Yes. But different - they come up with things that 4 of them can't put together. The experience is a blast - and definitely more challenge for me as the DM to come up with harder puzzles, encounters, interactions, plots, etc - which is what I seek.

To say that it simply won't work is not necessarily true. Big groups aren't for everyone. Simple groups aren't for everyone either.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grundgen 08-10-05, 10:13 PM	Ok, I'm posative that many DM's here have much more experience in this area...Excuse the lame pun, but I've got a party of 9 coming to dinner, and I'm not sure how much food to prepare?! In the past, I've always lucked out and DM'd for the classic PC party of 4...no problems, CR's are nicely built to make such dungeoncrafting a breeze. Even when we played 2ed I always had nice compact little groups of 4 eager to bash orcs and threaten inn-keepers...again no problem. There wasnt much table-talk, people paid attention to the NPC's and their long drawn out dramatic speeches (well, ok...mostly), and seemingly all was good. Well, now it seems our group has jumped to 8-9 PC's and we will be playing a campaign I created about a year ago. I originally made it for approx 4 PC's (go figure) and now, that just wont do. Do any "big group" DM's have a good rule of thumb for the kind of encounter levels a group so large should be facing? Should 50% of the encounters be of an EL 1-4 higher than the party? Or since there are double the PC's, is double the EL ok? I'm sure I will find out quickly what seems to work, but I am hoping to glean a few tips and tricks for keeping myself sane. I've been playing for about 11 years...I've DM'd a lot of games...just nothing so large. I'm afraid of 15min rounds and repeating room descriptions half a dozon times...(In the situation, it would be too rude for me to turn anyone down, so I'd like to try and avoid that option) Words of wisdom?
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-10-05, 10:28 PM	Do you have problems with having two medium gaming groups instead of one big one?
Didge 08-10-05, 10:48 PM	Having been a player in a situation like this (although never DM'd THAT many) before I can offer some words of wisdom from a player's perspective. 1) If at all possible, have someone act as a co-DM. God I know I'll get flamed for that one, but with this many folks there needs to be a second pair of eyes and ears. This helps because then when dealing with one set of questions the co-DM can answer others. This works exceptionally well if one of you is good at storyline/backdrops/fluff/etc. and the other is good at number crunching/rules stuff. 2) If the 1st suggestion can't be done then try this. Assign each person a specific job while at the table. Player1 is in charge of coordinating initiatives from the players and putting them in order. Player2 keeps track of spells up, durations, etc. and on whom. Player3 is in charge of checking any ruling that you're not 100% on but don't have time to stop and check. You see? By assigning each player a role not only will they be more active they won't wain between their turns. Each one is in charge of something that needs to be addressed and ensures they're paying attention. 3) Limit excess talk, unless in character. I know this will be a hard one. Everyone comes around the table for fun and to bs. But with that many people you won't be able to get the amount of gaming done that a 4 player party can do. 4) Limit the amount of time given to each person in combat. With that many people they should have ample time to prepare what they're about to do. Speaking of which, any spell caster should have their PHB open to the page of the spell that they're about to cast. THis helps you (if you're not that familiar with the spell) and also ensures that the player knows what their spell does and not what I've seen countless times. The, "What, since when did that spell do that? I've always played it the other way." excuse cannot be used here. 5) Encourage them to split up into 2 groups. I know that you can't do it for this game, but think about it. Ask them to work in and out of the game on a solution that will benefit everyone. Explain the idea of trying to DM that many folks. If they're good players they'll help out too. You don't even have to have it happen the first game session but might be an overlapping plot for several of the folks to wander off and do their own thing. It is especially cool if you work it so that things happen in the same timeframe so if someone wants to switch groups they can without it being several months behind or ahead of the other group. 5) As far as CR's it depends on their builds. If it is standard, I'd say start off with a CR 3 for a group of 8 level 1's. Especially at lower levels PC's are fragile. THough I'd say an average of a CR+2 would be a good average instead of the normal CR. Also see how they work together and what tactics they use. When I prepare an adventure/encounter for my group I take everyone's stats and run a mock combat. I assume average rolls/damage/most likely spells used (i.e. ones they typically have memorized)/etc and just look at the raw numbers. Typically I can do this with my group and get an average of 1 person unconscious/dead and that's a good indicator. My players are very versed in tactics (except 1) so they can manage an encounter where I had run it and one had ended up unconscious and turn it into a hard fought, but everyone still standing. Again, this is what I do, but it comes down to knowing your players.
Grundgen 08-10-05, 11:21 PM	-I'm not sure if splitting up the group is possible...it took some work just finding one day I could wrangle from the GF and 'nerd out' ;) -Didge I really like your suggestion #2...I hadnt thought of it, but it definately makes sense to get some help while juggling all those numbers. I read somewhere on a message board about an interesting use of a 3-minute sand timer for cinematic type scene and adding a sense of urgency to chases and the like...I planned on giving it a go, and maybe can also issue that in effect for everyone's turn as well...I sure hope that doesnt mean everyone takes the whole time, but could hopefully give a visual reminder of going quickly.
Dartanel 08-10-05, 11:35 PM	Els for a double size party are +2, not double. Although doubling the numbers of enemies of a normal EL is usually a good solution. Try to avoid individual high CR monsters against a large party. You generally end up with a dicey proposition. The single monster will either obliterate PCs with an ability of higher level then they can handle, or the PCs will obliterate the monster in short order by sheer numbers. I.E. a balanced encounter for 4 10th level PCs is, of course, an EL 10. A balanced encounter for 8 10th level PCs is, by extension, an EL 12. Now, using a single CR 12 is a risky proposition, as I've mentioned above. A better idea is a CR 10 and an EL 10 of lesser minions.
Ravenseye 08-10-05, 11:39 PM	These work even in smaller groups. 1) Timed rounds. With 9 people they better know what they're doing when their turn comes. If you say..."Ok, Regdar you're up." and he says "um...wait let me look in my players handbook for a second" you say "Ok, Regdar pulls out his handbook, that's considered his move turn, and reading it is his action. I"ll be nice and say it doesn't draw an attack of opportunity." to which he says "Hey wait!" by which time you're saying "OK Mystra you're up." Let them know before hand you'll be doing this though. ONe of the big drags at games, even small ones is the humming and hawing. If your'e in combat, you have to think fast. 2) It's a bit nerdy and I don't generally use this in games but it might work for larger groups. To cut down on the BS'ing factor make everything said at the table 'in character'. If someone says "Hey Lothar, you shoudl just chop off this guy's head with an axe" you say "The merchant looks positively frightened by you saying that, and runs into the back of the shop screaming." The only way they can talk out of character is to put their hand on their chest, or to step away from the table. I don't do this at normal games because it's one of the few times my friends and I get to hang out. 3) Tools. Not powertools, but things to help you keep track of the little things. Maybe if you don't want a helper, then have each characters name on a slip of paper, that you can keep track of initiative, or write it down every combat. Or put in an optional rule that you're going to role intitative once for the whole session, so make it a good one. ... I think that if you keep combat cracking along, and keep the chatter at a minimum you should be ok.
Pyritefoolsgold 08-11-05, 04:31 AM	I would also suggest making the game rather epic. Nine people are going to be distracting, so the game should be more than "lets kills some orcs." With this size of a party they can split into smaller groups and take down strongholds and enemies that a smaller group never could. Try and keep them on the edges of their seats, and they won't gab so much OOC.
Antioch 08-11-05, 04:56 AM	In my current campaign we are running with two DMs and eight players. As has been suggesting, enforcing a rule that people must stay in character or suffer the wrath of reduced XP works very well, as even with two DMs things can get out of hand. If at all possible, encourage the players to converse between themselves, interacting and learning more about eachother (this really wont do in combat, in which case have them figure out what they are doing ahead of time, odds are they will have enough time to figure it out). If the game was designed for a party of roughly half the size, simply increase the number of critters per encounter, and in the case of one-on-party battles, boost the levels.
Grundgen 08-11-05, 10:21 AM	Some fantastic ideas!! -Ravenseye I love the idea of having "book-looking" count as a move/standard action...I hope with the amount of people at the table, everyone will have time to have looked up what they need to BEFORE its their turn. Even "OOC talk" idea makes a whole lot of sense to me...I think people would make fun of me if I brought it up with the rowdy crowd I have playing, but I think I'm going to use that at some point. Maybe steal an idea from "lord of the flies" and only when you're holding the plush dragon can you talk out of character lol who knows -Dartanel Thats an awesome rule of thumb and a great tip about the CR 10 and EL 10...that makes perfect sense. (stupid browser closed down...I hate losing a longer post :weep: I'll just break it up as I remember) How to handle mapping? Or room descriptions and NPC interactions? Should they be more abbreviated and to the point?
Ravenseye 08-11-05, 12:50 PM	How to handle mapping? Or room descriptions and NPC interactions? Should they be more abbreviated and to the point? if you're not going to be using miniatures I'd recomend that you pick out the best mapper of the group to map for them. As far as descriptions and interactions I'd say do it normally. If you voice NPC's normally and have dialogue, then do it. If there is dialogue occuring and not all the PC"s are there, they have to be quiet, or go to another room if they want to jib jab. I wouldn't abbreviate them if that's not what you normally do. Your friends are there to play, not to have the D&D light version. If you're using miniatures, I hope you have a big table. I'd recomend that each miniature is unique enough to know which player is which, and get a nice big base sheet of paper. They have these big 3x4 sheets of grid paper that are perfect at stores like Staples or another office supply store. Things that normally go up on a wall, or on an easel. You could get that and just lay it on the table and draw out the rooms, ripping off pages as you go. Or you could make your own sheets but do them half size because of the number of players. have 5' be a half inch intead of an inch to give you more space, or use a smaller board. One other thing I'd say is that you should lay things out at first. You're there to have fun, but it's a group activity and just like if you were all playing together on a club soccer team, if you're on the sideline then you can chatter, if you're playign the game, you're playing the game. I'd really limit converstations at the table to in game. They want to chat? They can do it while getting a beer, and can be called back if anything important happens. I"d also set up a rule that, particularly when you're describing rooms or in NPC interactions, people have to shut up and listen or you'll be repeating yourself constantly. If it gets bad set up a rule that if you raise your hand, they have to shut up and listen. I hope you have a good session. The key I think is to allow the game to progress just like there were 4 people there. The more people at the table though the more you have to keep the non-game stuff to a minimum. The most important rule though.... If you're trying to get them to open the door to some chamber, so that they can initiate combat with the goblins inside (or whatever) but someone tells a joke or mentions something everyone is interested in, and people are laughing and having fun, join in...You're there to have fun...If the game gets put on hold for a minute, then enjoy it. When there is a pause though, be ready to say 'ok back to business'.
Elric Of Melnibone 08-11-05, 05:25 PM	15 min rounds is insane!!! Make the player do the work. Express monsters attacks vs armour in terms of a saving throw using the following equation : 20-AC=Base Armour Save. Change the monsters attack base into a negative vs thier save. Now the players roll thier attacks against themselves ( rolling a 1 is a threat). Have the monsters all go on the same iniative. Make the players roll the damage they take. All you need to do is dicatate who gets attacked and record the results. Sometimes you will need to pin down what everyone is doing in a given round and the best way to do that is to have everyone write down what they are doing round by round on a character action log. Otherwise you will have players trying to do too many things in one round and you wont remember whos doing what. This is also a good way of tracking how long spells are working. AN interesting idea is to plant one evil character amoungst the group of good characters...every player he kills has to roll up a new evil character (until half the group is evil). After the evil one has been discovered have the groups split and have each group go after the same objective keeping track on a timeline.
Traevanon 08-11-05, 07:59 PM	Regularly running a group of 12 I have these suggestions: When assigning jobs to players, Initiative tracker is the #1 priority. That's half your work. Someone to keep a tally of Monster damage and conditions will help as well. As for the rest, they are usually more trouble than they are worth. So, pick two helpers and make sure they are people that wouldnt get involved otherwise. Second, regarding EL: I use this chart and it works fairly well: 1-4 players = x1 number of monsters or +0 CR and x1 treasure 5-6 players = x1.5 number of monsters or +1 CR (to all monsters) and x1 treasure 7-8 players = x2 number of monsters or +2 CR (to all) and x1.5 treasure 9-10 players = x2.5 number of monsters or +3 CR (to all) and x1.5 treasure 11-12 players = x3 number of monsters or +4 CR (to all) and x2 treasure and so forth. Lastly, keeping the confusion down is important, but equally important is keeping everyone involved and entertained. Be constantly on the lookout for people just sitting there being polite and saying nothing and make sure to involve them otherwise your 12 person game goes back to a 4 person game pretty fast. Some house rules for large groups: No leadership No animate dead No pets that arent specifically allowed by class features If an NPC must join the party he does nothing in combat I enjoy my large group. With a little experience I think you will too.
jejyman 08-11-05, 08:53 PM	wow those are all amazing suggestions!! I had my first dm exp be with a group of 12!!! it was insane and i did split them to 2 groups, but that was still a hassle, if only i knew then what i know now.
Grundgen 08-11-05, 09:37 PM	Wow, there have definately been some great responses...there wasnt a single bad idea. When you guys talk about splitting into 2 groups, do you mean a more physical split like different times playing...or run a battle for one group, then run another for the other? Or is the split more abstract? How do you coordinate 2 groups? They fight in the same battles, but each foursome shares their own cut of the exp?
koragnar 08-11-05, 09:38 PM	Well If I was in your situation I woudl have some sort of castle or mystical secret place they're trying to get into. Then have puzzle with some kind of door gaurding it. And there would be like 8 spaces on the ground which would temporarily warp each of them to their own room, where there would be a monster or a small challenge or puzzle relative to their class. It would go by quicker because its alot easier for them to think of what they're doing when its 1 on 1 with a monster or something like that. Then when theyre all finished with the room by themselves, theyre warped back and the huge door opens to something really REALLY nastyly monsterous. Theyd have to work together ( and maybe each use some type of item they got in their room? ) and after killing the big bady they would get the artifact they were looking for or something. oor whatever. Lol ideas just start to flow.
nlumsden 08-11-05, 10:01 PM	This tool makes figuring out the encounters much easier. Encounter EL & XP Calculator (http://nazaire.home.insightbb.com/calculator.htm) Divy up the tasks and time the rounds. One thing I have changed in big parties is to give the party a couple of minutes before we begin the round to discuss their actions, then they just spit them out as we resolve the round - it is much easier than putting a timelimit on each player - this can get long and drawn out. I find that 3-5 minutes to "make a plan" speeds up combat significantly when dealing with a large party.
Grundgen 08-11-05, 10:27 PM	That is an awesome calculator... :eek:
FriendoftheDork 08-12-05, 01:16 AM	I usually avoid sizes larger than 6 at all costs... even 5 may too crowded at times even though it usually works. So I say cull the herd a bit and retain the best players. Encourage one of them to make his own group with the rest. That should makes sessions SO much more fun.
Traevanon 08-12-05, 07:22 AM	This tool makes figuring out the encounters much easier. Encounter EL & XP Calculator (http://nazaire.home.insightbb.com/calculator.htm) That is a nice tool, but often I need to modify the encounter right at the table and I have no computer there. I do have my handy chart though.
Patryn Runner 08-12-05, 09:38 AM	Been here before. No matter how good a DM you are, 1 DM and 9 PCs just isn't going to work. With so many people gameplay is going to be bogged down unbelieveably and if its not, your players suck. From a past experience with 8 players, just figuring out the initiative in the battle sequence was painful, let alone having multiple people act on the same initiative roll while some players are holding their actions and others are trying to move to flanking positions and don't even get me started on spell/psionic power use. All of the suggestions above are good, but the best (and simplest) one is to make two groups. This way you won't be sending people half way across the resturaunt to ask other tables if they'll be needing all of their chairs. PR-
nlumsden 08-13-05, 01:34 AM	I'm going to have to disagree. Our big group is awesome. It may help that they are all 20- and 30-somethings, but I wouldn't trade it to go back to a 4 person group. It's just different. More to handle? Yes. Doable? Yes. But different - they come up with things that 4 of them can't put together. The experience is a blast - and definitely more challenge for me as the DM to come up with harder puzzles, encounters, interactions, plots, etc - which is what I seek. To say that it simply won't work is not necessarily true. Big groups aren't for everyone. Simple groups aren't for everyone either.