..ahhh, to much for one party? [Archive] - Wizards Community

..ahhh, to much for one party? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Edwind
04-03-06, 04:43 AM Alright so my PCs have just got into a port city based in the frostfell. Now they'll have two options as far as what they would find interesting to do. One go out and explore the frostfell and such, OR go down maybe 600 or so yards from the city and come into some snowhills. Now the snowhills are semi inhabited by snowgoblins and they would encounter them every once and a while, until they get maybe 5 to 700 ft into the hills before they come across a cliff face (as in they're standing on top of it) the cliff face is pretty much a goblin warren, we're talkin 200ft down and roughly 200 or so across covered in cliff juts and holes, with a series of ladder/rope ladder means of traveling from ledge to ledge. Now theres about...300-600 goblins living there. Along with whatever else it says about tribe in the stat bar apart from dire wolves.

Sooo...To much? The partys average level is 3, with a level 4, but by the time they get to the cliff face, which would take maybe a day or two. They would have gone up a level or two. Sooo I'm asking is this too much to throw at them all at once. It does seem harsh but I feel they could do it. Any suggestions on how I could maybe water it down without getting rid of the "OMG we could die" flavour. I have problems with my PCs in which they think I wouldn't let anything bad happen to them, and I want that gone.

So anything would be nice other then "Just don't."

Edwind
MasterOfPsychic
04-03-06, 05:32 AM Ok, let's be simple... what is the cr of a snow goblin?

With such a tribe, you could EASILY kill your players... unless you are completely inlogical and let the only face SMALL amounts of them at the same time...

And rule that the snow goblins are too stuoid to set up guards, and forget to even care about their dead friends, and as such does not try to find those who kill their friends and catch them off guard...

Maybe not the answer you wanted?

EDIT: So you plan to throw the entire tribe at once at them?
Nevynxxx
04-03-06, 07:01 AM Just one little thing.

600Yards+ 700 feet = 600+233 yards.

833 yards, or around 762 meters, or less than 1km.

There is a tribe of 300 - 600 goblins, living within 1km of a town, and no-one cares?

So assuming you meant 700 yerds, not feet, then you still are less than 2km.

Look at Sons of Gruumsh, that is around 50 or so orcs, at the most, in a fortress, and it is a level 4 adventure with the disclaimer, "if you try this at less than about level 6, and go full frontal, you will die". That should give you a clue as to how hard what you are suggesting is.
LowKey
04-03-06, 07:29 AM ...Level 3-4 characters vs. 300-600 horde of Goblins? :twitch:

Even if you use the 1/4 CR - no class levels version, they still annihilate the players. In fact they would probably wipe out up to level 10 parties, with sheer critical hits only.
Laranis Callirr
04-03-06, 09:02 AM What Nevynxxx said about how close a tribe of goblins is to a city is quite true.

Additionally, if your party does decide to venture out towards this tribe, don't get them killed. Say that they walked in on their camp/huts/living space when most of the tribe was out on some kind of hunt, or other such activity. They can then run back and warn the town, etc.
Radijs
04-03-06, 09:15 AM Dunno. maybe the goblins have a bad location for their camp.
Avelange country perhaps? Thats what I'd do. Go up the mountain and wipe them all out like that.

A straight fight, they ain't gonna win that one.
Sulaco
04-03-06, 02:04 PM Dunno. maybe the goblins have a bad location for their camp.
Avelange country perhaps? Thats what I'd do. Go up the mountain and wipe them all out like that.

Avelange? :confused:

I would concur, though, that within 3 bowshots of the city walls is possibly the worst possible location imaginable for these goblins to locate their settlement.
OravennasBrother
04-03-06, 02:47 PM Aside from the nearnes of the goblins to the city (which I will address presently) the prospect of human beings gaining two levels in two days seems a bit rapid. Think how quickly skill points add up to the equivalent of a PhD - a degree which takes years to earn (perhaps partially due to bureaucratic stalls, but in many fields it is the complexity of the mastery of knowledge required) and ask how characters can possibly learn so much in such a short time.

WRT Goblins less than a mile from the city - what is the size of the city? 2500? then they should have ~ 75 Level 1 Warriors and 2000 level 1 commoners; more than enough to easily destroy that tribe (unless snow goblins are significantly more powerful than normal goblins) further the surrounding rural population is available for any major assault on the goblins. This might give ~500 level 1 warriors+ Higher level support. Goblins need to eat; few farm. So there would haev to be a signifiant amount of raiding. The locals would not tolerate that amount, and the goblins would be destroyed by the superior resources available to the city, and i postulated a fairly small city - a larger one would have MORE troops available.
Edwind
04-03-06, 07:14 PM Alright, well from what I see. Need to rethink the distance. Making the gobilin tribe farther away sounds like a good first step. Next I guess I should shorten the amount of goblins in the tribe. Maybe 300 or so, maybe less? The whole layout of the area where these goblins are located would be

Small hills reaching for a good two days treck across snow drifts and pits, where it ends in a cliff with a large jut. Stepping onto the jut and looking down you would see the whole cliff face covered with goblin warrens dotting all the way down to the bottom with rope and regular ladders travelling from one ledge opening to the next.

OravennasBrother

My PCs are quite picky when it comes to the length of time it takes to level up. Pretty much in any game they'd level up maybe one or twice, or getting close to the second time, their not up for the long haul time game where it spends months of playing. Don't even get me started on non-combat encounters...The last time I tried it one of my PCs got frustrated and stabbed the NPC and the game was later scrapped after everyone died due to the stabbing. They're just not good with that, so I have to make my games fast, something I want to change, but unfortunately its not a perfect world.

Also, quite a good guess on the population of the port city, it was exactly 2500. 200 or 250 level 1 warriors and so on. The goblins gain little from raiding due to the fact that the port city is the closest thing with is within a week or twos ride. Most of their intake would be from the underground they have tapped into that I would actually like the PCs to explore further.

MasterOfPsychic

No I wouldn't make them fight them in small groups, or all at once. I'd set things up so they could possibly (if smart enough) use the goblins defences against them. Boulders that roll down tunnels, pit falls that lead to exits out of the cliff, and things along that line. If my PCs were smart and attacked at night they would stand much more of a chance then in day. Conserning the CR of a snowgoblin. Its nothing special, the only thing is they get a howling abilty giving +4 on intimadate, and their favored class is fighter not rogue. Everything else is the same.

Radijs

That was also a thought of mine. Strategicly placed sticks of explosives or alchemy items could take a large part out of the snow hills resting just a ways from the cliffside.

Sulaco (and everyone else who thought this)

When I was creating the city I rolled and got the 5% chance it would have a monsterous government along with the other (forget the name) I really didn't know what that meant or how I could put that together with the city so I used goblin tribe from the entry and placed them aways which would be close enough to actually have some effect on the city.

Well not that thats all done with. If it seems it could be fixed more, please by all means P.E.A.C.H this adventure.

Edit: Also, I was thinking of maybe when they hear about the goblins or stumble upon them they'd do something smart and maybe hire hirelings or something. Maybe a squade of 12 warriors or so? a few clerics It would be much easier for them maybe, just maybe?
EldonG
04-03-06, 07:42 PM If they're a major political influence on the city, then maybe the proximity isn't so bad, but there'd be a good reason why they haven't been eliminated. What is the rest of the government like? Corrupt, maybe? Hey, it's always possible that there *aren't* that many combat capable folk in the city - wars have bad habits of depleting populations.

Oh, and yes, a 3rd-4th level party with smarts *can* deal with a huge number of goblins. They don't do it all at once, and once the leaders are taken down, they don't even need to deal with the bulk...many of which are, after all, non-combatants... (a 10th level party can literally wade through them. My wizard carried both fireball and lightning bolt, by then, and it's amazing what a simple wall of fire can do to deter both melee and missle.)

There are a number of good possibilities here. Why all the nay-saying? Open your minds!
kelvinaw273
04-03-06, 07:50 PM If this is Eberron, why not try TALKING to the goblins? A goblin town that close to the city probably acts as a labor pool for the city getting all the jobs done the humans and whatnot don't want to do. The goblins may well know that attacking humans outright would lead to reprisals from the city, and may have problems of their own they want solved.
Edwind
04-04-06, 12:09 AM EldonG

Yay, someone who doesn't throw the book at this idea. Thank you for throwing in some support. No to the city isn't corrupt, I believe the three central powers were City counsel (LN) Goblin Tribe (LE) and Church of some winter diety (LG). Although your ideas for dealing with the tribe is all to realisity, snowgoblins don't really care if said leader died, because they are actually much braver then their other cusins and both male and female fight to their fullest extent. SO Killing the leader wouldn't really matter much, it would just **** them off more.

kelvinaw273

No, this isn't Eberron. Personally I find it distastefull in some ways. I guess I'd prefer something I made up myself then it just handed to me. FR is alright I guess seeing how I've read some of its books, some I didn't even realize were FR books until I actually read the cover. Amazing what you learn when you read *waits for the random crowd to yell out "Cause Knowledge Is Power!"*

Alright, well I've found someone who thinks this is dueable. EldonG, any other Ideas or suggestions you might have to make this adventure last? Or infact any body. Please P.E.A.C.H my adventure!
zlatko
04-04-06, 07:58 AM 600-700 yards is less then half a mile = 0,7km.

1 meter [m] = 1.0936 yd
1000m = 1km
1 mile = 1760 yd = 1.6093 km
1 foot [ft] = 12 in = 0.3048 m

That would make it about 2000 feet. That's a short strawl. And could be in the range of some sige engines.

The point is, the town guards can see the goblins, vice versa.

The only explanation would be that the goblins presence is tolerated for some reason. Either they're not that bad or there is a common enemy in the vicinity.
Radijs
04-04-06, 10:13 AM Avelange? :confused:

I would concur, though, that within 3 bowshots of the city walls is possibly the worst possible location imaginable for these goblins to locate their settlement.
Avalange. You know that big white mass of snow that buries entire towns in the mountains.
LowKey
04-04-06, 10:17 AM Avalange. You know that big white mass of snow that buries entire towns in the mountains.

That would be avalanche.
Sulaco
04-04-06, 10:19 AM When I was creating the city I rolled and got the 5% chance it would have a monsterous government along with the other (forget the name) I really didn't know what that meant or how I could put that together with the city so I used goblin tribe from the entry and placed them aways which would be close enough to actually have some effect on the city.

You didn't mention that part. It would have been more than a little helpful. :rolleyes:

If the goblins are part of the city government then a group of adventurers wading though them would kinda be like sending a commando team on a killing spree at the DNC. This is not just a standard "XP on legs" dungeon crawl, it is a major political coup. You might want to more closely consider the repurcussions of this event than the logisitics.
Sulaco
04-04-06, 10:29 AM Avalange. You know that big white mass of snow that buries entire towns in the mountains.

Ah. That would be "avalanche".

I thought perhaps Avalange was somplace in Europe that I'd never heard of.
Edwind
04-04-06, 07:05 PM Sulaco

Alright well thank you for clearing that up. Now thats kinda clear, I really don't get what a monsterous government is actually supposed to DO really. So how can I figure out what this would do to my game if they did "wade into them" and such?

zlatko

They can't be seen from either side, they just KNOW their there. The goblins reside on a cliff face thats facing away from the town. The top of the mountain would bring you towards the city.
stargate525
04-04-06, 08:13 PM Alright well thank you for clearing that up. Now thats kinda clear, I really don't get what a monsterous government is actually supposed to DO really. So how can I figure out what this would do to my game if they did "wade into them" and such?
Well A monstrous government is, for example, a dragon coming to take a tenth of the city's wealth to add to his horde every year, or a bunch of orcs coming in for a year's worth of food annually. Basically, the threat of the monster(s) has forced the entire government of the town to build up around it.

In this case, if the goblins are more of an overlord-esqe type, making demands and such, the Pcs wading through them might be met with happiness, although the goblins would probably come down hard on the town should they survive. On the other hand, if it is a symbiotic relationship ( a give-take) the city would probably lynch the adventurers if they tried to return, and if they take too long about it, the town might come to their aid.
Sulaco
04-05-06, 09:53 AM Sulaco

Alright well thank you for clearing that up. Now thats kinda clear, I really don't get what a monsterous government is actually supposed to DO really. So how can I figure out what this would do to my game if they did "wade into them" and such?

You could think of it kinda like a Mafia extortion racket where the city pays protection money or the goblins set fire to their sheep.

Or it could be a more egalitarian arangement where he goblins keep the area clear of bandits and in return are paid a sum by the city and are allowed to enter it as normal citizens.

Or perhaps the goblins and the city have an uneasy truce. The goblins have been forced off their lands but, in return for concessions and protection from the city and a seat on the council, they agree to live on a reservation and cease their raiding.

Or maybe the goblins have a more secretive agreement wherein they facilitate the trade of goods between the city and other monstrous tribes and creatures.

Depending on how you do it taking out the goblins might be disreable or it might be the worst possible thign for the city. Remember, just cos a creature is a "monster" does not mean you must consign it to a "monstrous" role. If it helps, think of each monstrous race as a different Human ethnic group in terms of how they interrelate.

Cheers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edwind 04-03-06, 04:43 AM	Alright so my PCs have just got into a port city based in the frostfell. Now they'll have two options as far as what they would find interesting to do. One go out and explore the frostfell and such, OR go down maybe 600 or so yards from the city and come into some snowhills. Now the snowhills are semi inhabited by snowgoblins and they would encounter them every once and a while, until they get maybe 5 to 700 ft into the hills before they come across a cliff face (as in they're standing on top of it) the cliff face is pretty much a goblin warren, we're talkin 200ft down and roughly 200 or so across covered in cliff juts and holes, with a series of ladder/rope ladder means of traveling from ledge to ledge. Now theres about...300-600 goblins living there. Along with whatever else it says about tribe in the stat bar apart from dire wolves. Sooo...To much? The partys average level is 3, with a level 4, but by the time they get to the cliff face, which would take maybe a day or two. They would have gone up a level or two. Sooo I'm asking is this too much to throw at them all at once. It does seem harsh but I feel they could do it. Any suggestions on how I could maybe water it down without getting rid of the "OMG we could die" flavour. I have problems with my PCs in which they think I wouldn't let anything bad happen to them, and I want that gone. So anything would be nice other then "Just don't." Edwind
MasterOfPsychic 04-03-06, 05:32 AM	Ok, let's be simple... what is the cr of a snow goblin? With such a tribe, you could EASILY kill your players... unless you are completely inlogical and let the only face SMALL amounts of them at the same time... And rule that the snow goblins are too stuoid to set up guards, and forget to even care about their dead friends, and as such does not try to find those who kill their friends and catch them off guard... Maybe not the answer you wanted? EDIT: So you plan to throw the entire tribe at once at them?
Nevynxxx 04-03-06, 07:01 AM	Just one little thing. 600Yards+ 700 feet = 600+233 yards. 833 yards, or around 762 meters, or less than 1km. There is a tribe of 300 - 600 goblins, living within 1km of a town, and no-one cares? So assuming you meant 700 yerds, not feet, then you still are less than 2km. Look at Sons of Gruumsh, that is around 50 or so orcs, at the most, in a fortress, and it is a level 4 adventure with the disclaimer, "if you try this at less than about level 6, and go full frontal, you will die". That should give you a clue as to how hard what you are suggesting is.
LowKey 04-03-06, 07:29 AM	...Level 3-4 characters vs. 300-600 horde of Goblins? :twitch: Even if you use the 1/4 CR - no class levels version, they still annihilate the players. In fact they would probably wipe out up to level 10 parties, with sheer critical hits only.
Laranis Callirr 04-03-06, 09:02 AM	What Nevynxxx said about how close a tribe of goblins is to a city is quite true. Additionally, if your party does decide to venture out towards this tribe, don't get them killed. Say that they walked in on their camp/huts/living space when most of the tribe was out on some kind of hunt, or other such activity. They can then run back and warn the town, etc.
Radijs 04-03-06, 09:15 AM	Dunno. maybe the goblins have a bad location for their camp. Avelange country perhaps? Thats what I'd do. Go up the mountain and wipe them all out like that. A straight fight, they ain't gonna win that one.
Sulaco 04-03-06, 02:04 PM	Dunno. maybe the goblins have a bad location for their camp. Avelange country perhaps? Thats what I'd do. Go up the mountain and wipe them all out like that. Avelange? :confused: I would concur, though, that within 3 bowshots of the city walls is possibly the worst possible location imaginable for these goblins to locate their settlement.
OravennasBrother 04-03-06, 02:47 PM	Aside from the nearnes of the goblins to the city (which I will address presently) the prospect of human beings gaining two levels in two days seems a bit rapid. Think how quickly skill points add up to the equivalent of a PhD - a degree which takes years to earn (perhaps partially due to bureaucratic stalls, but in many fields it is the complexity of the mastery of knowledge required) and ask how characters can possibly learn so much in such a short time. WRT Goblins less than a mile from the city - what is the size of the city? 2500? then they should have ~ 75 Level 1 Warriors and 2000 level 1 commoners; more than enough to easily destroy that tribe (unless snow goblins are significantly more powerful than normal goblins) further the surrounding rural population is available for any major assault on the goblins. This might give ~500 level 1 warriors+ Higher level support. Goblins need to eat; few farm. So there would haev to be a signifiant amount of raiding. The locals would not tolerate that amount, and the goblins would be destroyed by the superior resources available to the city, and i postulated a fairly small city - a larger one would have MORE troops available.
Edwind 04-03-06, 07:14 PM	Alright, well from what I see. Need to rethink the distance. Making the gobilin tribe farther away sounds like a good first step. Next I guess I should shorten the amount of goblins in the tribe. Maybe 300 or so, maybe less? The whole layout of the area where these goblins are located would be Small hills reaching for a good two days treck across snow drifts and pits, where it ends in a cliff with a large jut. Stepping onto the jut and looking down you would see the whole cliff face covered with goblin warrens dotting all the way down to the bottom with rope and regular ladders travelling from one ledge opening to the next. OravennasBrother My PCs are quite picky when it comes to the length of time it takes to level up. Pretty much in any game they'd level up maybe one or twice, or getting close to the second time, their not up for the long haul time game where it spends months of playing. Don't even get me started on non-combat encounters...The last time I tried it one of my PCs got frustrated and stabbed the NPC and the game was later scrapped after everyone died due to the stabbing. They're just not good with that, so I have to make my games fast, something I want to change, but unfortunately its not a perfect world. Also, quite a good guess on the population of the port city, it was exactly 2500. 200 or 250 level 1 warriors and so on. The goblins gain little from raiding due to the fact that the port city is the closest thing with is within a week or twos ride. Most of their intake would be from the underground they have tapped into that I would actually like the PCs to explore further. MasterOfPsychic No I wouldn't make them fight them in small groups, or all at once. I'd set things up so they could possibly (if smart enough) use the goblins defences against them. Boulders that roll down tunnels, pit falls that lead to exits out of the cliff, and things along that line. If my PCs were smart and attacked at night they would stand much more of a chance then in day. Conserning the CR of a snowgoblin. Its nothing special, the only thing is they get a howling abilty giving +4 on intimadate, and their favored class is fighter not rogue. Everything else is the same. Radijs That was also a thought of mine. Strategicly placed sticks of explosives or alchemy items could take a large part out of the snow hills resting just a ways from the cliffside. Sulaco (and everyone else who thought this) When I was creating the city I rolled and got the 5% chance it would have a monsterous government along with the other (forget the name) I really didn't know what that meant or how I could put that together with the city so I used goblin tribe from the entry and placed them aways which would be close enough to actually have some effect on the city. Well not that thats all done with. If it seems it could be fixed more, please by all means P.E.A.C.H this adventure. Edit: Also, I was thinking of maybe when they hear about the goblins or stumble upon them they'd do something smart and maybe hire hirelings or something. Maybe a squade of 12 warriors or so? a few clerics It would be much easier for them maybe, just maybe?
EldonG 04-03-06, 07:42 PM	If they're a major political influence on the city, then maybe the proximity isn't so bad, but there'd be a good reason why they haven't been eliminated. What is the rest of the government like? Corrupt, maybe? Hey, it's always possible that there aren't that many combat capable folk in the city - wars have bad habits of depleting populations. Oh, and yes, a 3rd-4th level party with smarts can deal with a huge number of goblins. They don't do it all at once, and once the leaders are taken down, they don't even need to deal with the bulk...many of which are, after all, non-combatants... (a 10th level party can literally wade through them. My wizard carried both fireball and lightning bolt, by then, and it's amazing what a simple wall of fire can do to deter both melee and missle.) There are a number of good possibilities here. Why all the nay-saying? Open your minds!
kelvinaw273 04-03-06, 07:50 PM	If this is Eberron, why not try TALKING to the goblins? A goblin town that close to the city probably acts as a labor pool for the city getting all the jobs done the humans and whatnot don't want to do. The goblins may well know that attacking humans outright would lead to reprisals from the city, and may have problems of their own they want solved.
Edwind 04-04-06, 12:09 AM	EldonG Yay, someone who doesn't throw the book at this idea. Thank you for throwing in some support. No to the city isn't corrupt, I believe the three central powers were City counsel (LN) Goblin Tribe (LE) and Church of some winter diety (LG). Although your ideas for dealing with the tribe is all to realisity, snowgoblins don't really care if said leader died, because they are actually much braver then their other cusins and both male and female fight to their fullest extent. SO Killing the leader wouldn't really matter much, it would just **** them off more. kelvinaw273 No, this isn't Eberron. Personally I find it distastefull in some ways. I guess I'd prefer something I made up myself then it just handed to me. FR is alright I guess seeing how I've read some of its books, some I didn't even realize were FR books until I actually read the cover. Amazing what you learn when you read waits for the random crowd to yell out "Cause Knowledge Is Power!" Alright, well I've found someone who thinks this is dueable. EldonG, any other Ideas or suggestions you might have to make this adventure last? Or infact any body. Please P.E.A.C.H my adventure!
zlatko 04-04-06, 07:58 AM	600-700 yards is less then half a mile = 0,7km. 1 meter [m] = 1.0936 yd 1000m = 1km 1 mile = 1760 yd = 1.6093 km 1 foot [ft] = 12 in = 0.3048 m That would make it about 2000 feet. That's a short strawl. And could be in the range of some sige engines. The point is, the town guards can see the goblins, vice versa. The only explanation would be that the goblins presence is tolerated for some reason. Either they're not that bad or there is a common enemy in the vicinity.
Radijs 04-04-06, 10:13 AM	Avelange? :confused: I would concur, though, that within 3 bowshots of the city walls is possibly the worst possible location imaginable for these goblins to locate their settlement. Avalange. You know that big white mass of snow that buries entire towns in the mountains.
LowKey 04-04-06, 10:17 AM	Avalange. You know that big white mass of snow that buries entire towns in the mountains. That would be avalanche.
Sulaco 04-04-06, 10:19 AM	When I was creating the city I rolled and got the 5% chance it would have a monsterous government along with the other (forget the name) I really didn't know what that meant or how I could put that together with the city so I used goblin tribe from the entry and placed them aways which would be close enough to actually have some effect on the city. You didn't mention that part. It would have been more than a little helpful. :rolleyes: If the goblins are part of the city government then a group of adventurers wading though them would kinda be like sending a commando team on a killing spree at the DNC. This is not just a standard "XP on legs" dungeon crawl, it is a major political coup. You might want to more closely consider the repurcussions of this event than the logisitics.
Sulaco 04-04-06, 10:29 AM	Avalange. You know that big white mass of snow that buries entire towns in the mountains. Ah. That would be "avalanche". I thought perhaps Avalange was somplace in Europe that I'd never heard of.
Edwind 04-04-06, 07:05 PM	Sulaco Alright well thank you for clearing that up. Now thats kinda clear, I really don't get what a monsterous government is actually supposed to DO really. So how can I figure out what this would do to my game if they did "wade into them" and such? zlatko They can't be seen from either side, they just KNOW their there. The goblins reside on a cliff face thats facing away from the town. The top of the mountain would bring you towards the city.
stargate525 04-04-06, 08:13 PM	Alright well thank you for clearing that up. Now thats kinda clear, I really don't get what a monsterous government is actually supposed to DO really. So how can I figure out what this would do to my game if they did "wade into them" and such? Well A monstrous government is, for example, a dragon coming to take a tenth of the city's wealth to add to his horde every year, or a bunch of orcs coming in for a year's worth of food annually. Basically, the threat of the monster(s) has forced the entire government of the town to build up around it. In this case, if the goblins are more of an overlord-esqe type, making demands and such, the Pcs wading through them might be met with happiness, although the goblins would probably come down hard on the town should they survive. On the other hand, if it is a symbiotic relationship ( a give-take) the city would probably lynch the adventurers if they tried to return, and if they take too long about it, the town might come to their aid.
Sulaco 04-05-06, 09:53 AM	Sulaco Alright well thank you for clearing that up. Now thats kinda clear, I really don't get what a monsterous government is actually supposed to DO really. So how can I figure out what this would do to my game if they did "wade into them" and such? You could think of it kinda like a Mafia extortion racket where the city pays protection money or the goblins set fire to their sheep. Or it could be a more egalitarian arangement where he goblins keep the area clear of bandits and in return are paid a sum by the city and are allowed to enter it as normal citizens. Or perhaps the goblins and the city have an uneasy truce. The goblins have been forced off their lands but, in return for concessions and protection from the city and a seat on the council, they agree to live on a reservation and cease their raiding. Or maybe the goblins have a more secretive agreement wherein they facilitate the trade of goods between the city and other monstrous tribes and creatures. Depending on how you do it taking out the goblins might be disreable or it might be the worst possible thign for the city. Remember, just cos a creature is a "monster" does not mean you must consign it to a "monstrous" role. If it helps, think of each monstrous race as a different Human ethnic group in terms of how they interrelate. Cheers.