0th Level PCs or: Levels as a Commoner? [Archive] - Wizards Community

0th Level PCs or: Levels as a Commoner? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tqm111
12-08-04, 11:06 PM So, I was having this discussion,

Suppose you had PCs, and they were just normal folk. And in the course of a rebellion or whatevr, they take up arms. At what point would they become a fighter?

The answer I was told was: Never. You don't become a class until you get some formal training in that class.

Fair enough, that answer satisfied me.

But then I brought this question up with someone else. He told me that in Dragonlance (could have been another campaign settng), under 2e rules, there were rules for a class of Commoner. Essentially an untrained PC. You'd gain XP and level like a mage. And you'd get profencicies and so forth.

Anyone got any info on this?
Aeromus
12-08-04, 11:13 PM It was in the Dragonlance boxxed set for 2edition.
Duvanok
12-08-04, 11:21 PM So, I was having this discussion,

Suppose you had PCs, and they were just normal folk. And in the course of a rebellion or whatevr, they take up arms. At what point would they become a fighter?

The logical answer would be: when they earn enough XP to go up a level they should be able to choose to go up as anything they want, including a fighter.
Dreaming_in_the_void
12-08-04, 11:30 PM The logical answer would be: when they earn enough XP to go up a level they should be able to choose to go up as anything they want, including a fighter.

I agree with Duvanok. But a 0th level PC? I'm not sure what that would be.

The flip side is that giving PC's thier first level in commoner, warrior, expert, or adept....well, sucks.

That's like slapping them with a +1 LA for a "template" not worth the trouble to bother writing down. Although, for once the first level wizard would have somebody to pick on and monks/sorcerer/bards wouldn't be the most underpowered characters....
bitnine
12-08-04, 11:46 PM Personally, I could see treating the stats of 1st level commoners as interchangable with 0th level folk. So if a 1st level commoner gains some requisite number of experience, he can expend that experience to "trade out" that level of commoner for a level in a PC or NPC class.
ECOM
12-09-04, 12:03 AM the idea started in first edition i think the cavalier class youstarted out like at level -1 or -2 I dont remember witch and with negative xp when you reached 0 xp you were level 1. the rule would not tranclate very well because a commoner is now a leveled class. you cold make a few negative level for commoners and when the pc reach level 1 there new class would superceed there negative commoner levels.

Commoner level 0 (-500xp)
BAB +0
All Saves +0
HP 4
no class abilitys
all race abilitys

when they reach 0 xp they would gain all class features of there chosen class. they would gain there 1st feat and any class features of there chosen class they would lose there4 hp and gain the hp apropriate to there class.

this would be like starting off as commoners that go off and adventure to become fighters and what not.

not sure if this is what you are looking for but it is just a thought
tqm111
12-09-04, 08:50 AM Thats the thing though.

I don't think you would have the know-how of a fighter until you went through some basic training. Fighting with a sword, for example, is not intuitive. Even a level 1 fighter is presumed to have a basic level of competency in fighting.

Its like John Q. Public versus a Marine straight out of basic. One is just a guy, one is a trained fighter.

So, I don't think it should be the case that... VOILA! You've gotten the minimum XP, You're a fighter! Or VOILA! You're a cleric.

As a DM, I'd certainly allow players to acquire XP, and, until they got basic training, to perhaps even level and improve their basic stats.

I understand the game mechanics involved, but looking at the realism factor, I don't see how someone's automatically going to gain certain abilities out of thin air without training.
clarkvalentine
12-09-04, 09:39 AM I understand the game mechanics involved, but looking at the realism factor, I don't see how someone's automatically going to gain certain abilities out of thin air without training.

Obviously, they can't. But it's a matter of how much realism you want. Personally, I prefer to ignore the training, or have it be a one-minute montage of the characters standing/running/working on mountaintops/beaches/fields performing sword drills/running miles/lifting hay bales while bagpipe music/cheesy 80's rock songs/swelling string orchestrations play in the background.
Wolf72
12-09-04, 09:40 AM I like ecom's idea ...

tqm111: I think that's the -500 to 0xp would simulate, the time and experience in learning something (a class) or getting you on the track to learning something (a class) ... if you want more realism, you're gonna have a lot more details and rules, which may bog things down to much.

500xp seems pretty simple to use, also you don't have any skills assigned and 4hp is a fair start for everyone.

even if you wanted to let them start with the 1st lvl in a NPC class, but didn't want to get hosed on skills and HP ... make it a pseudo-1st lvl class:

get the HP (when you take your next level, take the higher of the two ... mages would make out on this)

normal skills (you get your 4x when you take your next level)

your 1st NPC/1st PC level would be a little more powerful, but nothing over the top.
clarkvalentine
12-09-04, 09:43 AM If you really want to run part of the game as "You're all commoners who rise above their station in life!" just run the first session with them all as level 1 commoners (or experts, maybe, for the would-be casters). Let them do the "Common peasants rise up against the goblins" thing, then afterward they swap out their level of commoner/expert for a level of the heroic class of their choice. That way you get the feel of them being the little guy, but they get into the heroic classes without being saddled with the baggage of an NPC class.
Erix d'Pheer
12-09-04, 09:46 AM I'm under the impression that no one, except children, is level 0. The "average person" is a 1st-level commoner (remember also that children are not counted when determining population). You do not need to gain any experience to attain 1st level - once you are an adult (or finished training) you gain 1 level in whatever class you trained for, or your abilities warrant; lack of any formal training or special ability makes you a commoner. I also believe the general wisdom to be (at least this is how I see it) that most people simply do not have what it takes to be more than a 1st-level commoner; NPC's do not gain experience and levels in the same way PC's do. The way I see it, everyone is essentially fated to reach a certain level, and once you reach that level you can go no higher. PC's, of course, have the potential to be as high as they want, they're exceptional, but most people will be commoner 1 all their lives, and there's really nothing they can do to change that.
ShadowDragon8685
12-09-04, 10:49 AM My advice?

Don't. Just let them start out as a Heroic class. Exceptional people can do it without being trained.

Also, if you try and make them start out as Commoner, they're going to be ridicilously easy to kill. A 1st level Goblin Warrior is worth any three peasents.
Thoronmir
12-09-04, 10:52 AM I make use of the NPC classes in the DMG. That gray-bearded smithy you’re talking to just might be a level 10 Expert (Blacksmith). The farmer you meet on the road to Sheldenshire may be a level 5 Commoner. In my world, the City Watch is more likely to have levels of Warrior rather than Fighter.

I’ve run campaigns in which the PCs all started out as 1st level NPC classes … Commoner, Warrior, Aristocrat, etc. (in one such campaign, they all started as children ages 11-13). I agree that poking an Orc with your pitchfork doesn’t quite prepare you for plate mail and long swords. But it’s really up to the DM to decide if any formal training is necessary.

For me, the biggest problem was spellcasters. Having Jane the Villager crack open a spellbook and suddenly know how to lob Magic Missiles never made much sense. Of course, it’s a little easier if the player chose Sorcerer as her PC class, but even they need some experimentation with their powers to gain control.

I’ve handled the transition from NPC classes to PC classes many different ways. In the “children” campaign, there was a five-year break between the first adventure and the next, during which the PCs had ample time to train in their chosen fields. I’ve also used the “osmosis” approach (the PCs spent enough time in the company of “real” adventurers to pick up the skills they needed to be 1st level PC classes). IMO, it all depends on what best fits the flow of your campaign.

[EDIT]: I should mention that NPC levels in my game were “free” levels. They did not affect anyone’s ECL. A PC with 1 level of Commoner who reached 1st level Fighter would need the same EXP for 2nd level Fighter as if he has no NPC levels. Skill Points for the NPC level were calculated as the NPC class’s base SP + INT bonus, without the x4 multiplier at 1st level. PCs were able to use the x4 multiplier at 1st level of their heroic class. I made sure that the PCs received the full benefits of their 1st level heroic classes … plus whatever their NPC class gave.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tqm111 12-08-04, 11:06 PM	So, I was having this discussion, Suppose you had PCs, and they were just normal folk. And in the course of a rebellion or whatevr, they take up arms. At what point would they become a fighter? The answer I was told was: Never. You don't become a class until you get some formal training in that class. Fair enough, that answer satisfied me. But then I brought this question up with someone else. He told me that in Dragonlance (could have been another campaign settng), under 2e rules, there were rules for a class of Commoner. Essentially an untrained PC. You'd gain XP and level like a mage. And you'd get profencicies and so forth. Anyone got any info on this?
Aeromus 12-08-04, 11:13 PM	It was in the Dragonlance boxxed set for 2edition.
Duvanok 12-08-04, 11:21 PM	So, I was having this discussion, Suppose you had PCs, and they were just normal folk. And in the course of a rebellion or whatevr, they take up arms. At what point would they become a fighter? The logical answer would be: when they earn enough XP to go up a level they should be able to choose to go up as anything they want, including a fighter.
Dreaming_in_the_void 12-08-04, 11:30 PM	The logical answer would be: when they earn enough XP to go up a level they should be able to choose to go up as anything they want, including a fighter. I agree with Duvanok. But a 0th level PC? I'm not sure what that would be. The flip side is that giving PC's thier first level in commoner, warrior, expert, or adept....well, sucks. That's like slapping them with a +1 LA for a "template" not worth the trouble to bother writing down. Although, for once the first level wizard would have somebody to pick on and monks/sorcerer/bards wouldn't be the most underpowered characters....
bitnine 12-08-04, 11:46 PM	Personally, I could see treating the stats of 1st level commoners as interchangable with 0th level folk. So if a 1st level commoner gains some requisite number of experience, he can expend that experience to "trade out" that level of commoner for a level in a PC or NPC class.
ECOM 12-09-04, 12:03 AM	the idea started in first edition i think the cavalier class youstarted out like at level -1 or -2 I dont remember witch and with negative xp when you reached 0 xp you were level 1. the rule would not tranclate very well because a commoner is now a leveled class. you cold make a few negative level for commoners and when the pc reach level 1 there new class would superceed there negative commoner levels. Commoner level 0 (-500xp) BAB +0 All Saves +0 HP 4 no class abilitys all race abilitys when they reach 0 xp they would gain all class features of there chosen class. they would gain there 1st feat and any class features of there chosen class they would lose there4 hp and gain the hp apropriate to there class. this would be like starting off as commoners that go off and adventure to become fighters and what not. not sure if this is what you are looking for but it is just a thought
tqm111 12-09-04, 08:50 AM	Thats the thing though. I don't think you would have the know-how of a fighter until you went through some basic training. Fighting with a sword, for example, is not intuitive. Even a level 1 fighter is presumed to have a basic level of competency in fighting. Its like John Q. Public versus a Marine straight out of basic. One is just a guy, one is a trained fighter. So, I don't think it should be the case that... VOILA! You've gotten the minimum XP, You're a fighter! Or VOILA! You're a cleric. As a DM, I'd certainly allow players to acquire XP, and, until they got basic training, to perhaps even level and improve their basic stats. I understand the game mechanics involved, but looking at the realism factor, I don't see how someone's automatically going to gain certain abilities out of thin air without training.
clarkvalentine 12-09-04, 09:39 AM	I understand the game mechanics involved, but looking at the realism factor, I don't see how someone's automatically going to gain certain abilities out of thin air without training. Obviously, they can't. But it's a matter of how much realism you want. Personally, I prefer to ignore the training, or have it be a one-minute montage of the characters standing/running/working on mountaintops/beaches/fields performing sword drills/running miles/lifting hay bales while bagpipe music/cheesy 80's rock songs/swelling string orchestrations play in the background.
Wolf72 12-09-04, 09:40 AM	I like ecom's idea ... tqm111: I think that's the -500 to 0xp would simulate, the time and experience in learning something (a class) or getting you on the track to learning something (a class) ... if you want more realism, you're gonna have a lot more details and rules, which may bog things down to much. 500xp seems pretty simple to use, also you don't have any skills assigned and 4hp is a fair start for everyone. even if you wanted to let them start with the 1st lvl in a NPC class, but didn't want to get hosed on skills and HP ... make it a pseudo-1st lvl class: get the HP (when you take your next level, take the higher of the two ... mages would make out on this) normal skills (you get your 4x when you take your next level) your 1st NPC/1st PC level would be a little more powerful, but nothing over the top.
clarkvalentine 12-09-04, 09:43 AM	If you really want to run part of the game as "You're all commoners who rise above their station in life!" just run the first session with them all as level 1 commoners (or experts, maybe, for the would-be casters). Let them do the "Common peasants rise up against the goblins" thing, then afterward they swap out their level of commoner/expert for a level of the heroic class of their choice. That way you get the feel of them being the little guy, but they get into the heroic classes without being saddled with the baggage of an NPC class.
Erix d'Pheer 12-09-04, 09:46 AM	I'm under the impression that no one, except children, is level 0. The "average person" is a 1st-level commoner (remember also that children are not counted when determining population). You do not need to gain any experience to attain 1st level - once you are an adult (or finished training) you gain 1 level in whatever class you trained for, or your abilities warrant; lack of any formal training or special ability makes you a commoner. I also believe the general wisdom to be (at least this is how I see it) that most people simply do not have what it takes to be more than a 1st-level commoner; NPC's do not gain experience and levels in the same way PC's do. The way I see it, everyone is essentially fated to reach a certain level, and once you reach that level you can go no higher. PC's, of course, have the potential to be as high as they want, they're exceptional, but most people will be commoner 1 all their lives, and there's really nothing they can do to change that.
ShadowDragon8685 12-09-04, 10:49 AM	My advice? Don't. Just let them start out as a Heroic class. Exceptional people can do it without being trained. Also, if you try and make them start out as Commoner, they're going to be ridicilously easy to kill. A 1st level Goblin Warrior is worth any three peasents.
Thoronmir 12-09-04, 10:52 AM	I make use of the NPC classes in the DMG. That gray-bearded smithy you’re talking to just might be a level 10 Expert (Blacksmith). The farmer you meet on the road to Sheldenshire may be a level 5 Commoner. In my world, the City Watch is more likely to have levels of Warrior rather than Fighter. I’ve run campaigns in which the PCs all started out as 1st level NPC classes … Commoner, Warrior, Aristocrat, etc. (in one such campaign, they all started as children ages 11-13). I agree that poking an Orc with your pitchfork doesn’t quite prepare you for plate mail and long swords. But it’s really up to the DM to decide if any formal training is necessary. For me, the biggest problem was spellcasters. Having Jane the Villager crack open a spellbook and suddenly know how to lob Magic Missiles never made much sense. Of course, it’s a little easier if the player chose Sorcerer as her PC class, but even they need some experimentation with their powers to gain control. I’ve handled the transition from NPC classes to PC classes many different ways. In the “children” campaign, there was a five-year break between the first adventure and the next, during which the PCs had ample time to train in their chosen fields. I’ve also used the “osmosis” approach (the PCs spent enough time in the company of “real” adventurers to pick up the skills they needed to be 1st level PC classes). IMO, it all depends on what best fits the flow of your campaign. [EDIT]: I should mention that NPC levels in my game were “free” levels. They did not affect anyone’s ECL. A PC with 1 level of Commoner who reached 1st level Fighter would need the same EXP for 2nd level Fighter as if he has no NPC levels. Skill Points for the NPC level were calculated as the NPC class’s base SP + INT bonus, without the x4 multiplier at 1st level. PCs were able to use the x4 multiplier at 1st level of their heroic class. I made sure that the PCs received the full benefits of their 1st level heroic classes … plus whatever their NPC class gave.