Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Messer 11-09-06, 11:04 AM	Okay, the other night I was running a little game that, well, I enjoy, and whatnot, I really enjoy, as a matter of fact, I am prepping for the higher level tests in the RPGA ranking, because, well, I love it so much, but.... thats not the point.... I was running this game, and someone wanted to call the shot. I thought about it, and, I had a problem.... I had a really big problem, because I see where the called shot has been kinda trimmed out of the 3.5 rules. Now, I'm not an idiot, so, I know that someone before has talked about the called shot, and weather it should or shouldn't be legal, and weather it should or should't effect people with a greater amount of dammage, etc... the point is this. Its 1 AM, I have to work tomorrow, and I dont have time to go trolling for this thing. so, I'm gonna ask you, as fellow DM's what rules do you use, to handle the called shot? (Is the called shot not really just the 'instakill' ability of the assasin? I mean, isn't that what a hunter does? take 3 rounds, find the shot, and take it?) Can you redirect me to a discussion on this? do you have any opinions? whatever, thanks for your time. I know this might not make sense or be full of typos.... its late... I worked today, and I work again soon... so, my apologies....:embarrass
RobbyPants 11-09-06, 11:16 AM	Well, I've tried various rules to work around the situation. I even play-tested a prototype system I made where creatures had seperate HP totals per body part. The thing is, when you introduce something that big into the game, it will change it. Maybe that's what you want. You just have to carefully think of how the PCs or the monsters can break the new rules. The last thing you want is for the PCs to try and shoot out the eyes of every monster they come to every fight. Also, if you want a similar workaround, I saw a feat on the boards once that is named "Called Shot". It's basically a Power Attack for ranged attacks. You sacrifice some of your attack roll bonus to add a like number to your damage roll (-3 to hit, +3 damage). It's crude and simple, but it may be just the fix ;)
mike_beavers 11-09-06, 11:20 AM	probably would recommend against it. Whats to prevent the bad guys from doing the same thing to your heroes? Just remind the players if they want that ability the bad guys get it also.
Frugal 11-09-06, 11:39 AM	A big problem with doing called shots is the way D&D does AC. For it to work properly you need to know what areas are covered with armour and which aren't because obviously you shouldn't have to beat the armour bonus to AC if you were aiming for an unarmoured part of the body. Then you need to figure out how much of a modifier you need to hit specific areas and you need to balance this modifier with the possibility that you might be ignoring some of the target's AC. Then, you need to figure out how to handle a miss, does it miss entirely or simply hit another part of the body? If it hits another part of the body how do you figure out bypassing AC? For instance, you could aim to put an arrow through somebodies heart a "miss" could just mean you hit them in the chest but not their heart. Then, you need to figure out what effect hitting a body part will have. You need to find a good balance so that it's not so bad that nobody will do it or so good that every shot will be a called shot. Obviously the modifiers you came up with before will have a big impact on this. You really have to decide what kind of effects you want to allow. For instance, the arrow to the heart example should have a pretty high chance of killing the target, but that raises lots of issues with being able to drop a high HP target with 1 hit. Then, you should probably add a hit location chart for non-called shots because if hitting a specific body part has a specific effect, why wouldn't you have that for normal hits too (but more likely to hit limbs and torso rather than vital organs). Now you'll again have to do some balancing so that you don't end up with people just trying their luck with hitting a vital area by chance as opposed to doing a called shot. Now once you've done all that you have to deal with all the extra complexity and time you've added to resolving hits. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that it has a huge impact on the game and you have to work really hard to make sure you come up with something balanced.
Loopy 11-09-06, 11:57 AM	The PCs are always aiming for a vital spot. When they get a crit, that means they hit a particularly vital spot (major artery, head, etc). A bit of a houserule exists in my game if the PCs want to do LESS damage, however. Since the rules state the PCs are always going for a kill, I feel the need to let them decide that their goal is to maim rather than kill. I let my players tell me that they are not aiming for vital areas and that they are trying not to kill the NPC. If they want to aim for the legs or arms instead of a instant-kill area, then when the NPC is "killed", they are merely unconscious and maimed instead.
Soulkeeper 11-09-06, 12:17 PM	I've always allowed "called shots", but I have a house rule as follows: 1. A called shot is a natural 20 only, ie, it only hits its target on a natural 20. Anything less is viewed as a normal chance to hit with a minus 4 attack added in. Therefore, if you roll a 8 you miss your called location. If you have a +6 attack, tack on -4 and you end up with a 10..and check for a hit or miss for a normal attack roll and deal damage if applicable. 2. A called shot that does 3/4 or more of its maximum damage can disable an opponents limb, eye, etc....but is never a kill. I flat out do not allow one shot kills unless the damage done, is a legitimate one shot kill. What this does allow for is the loss of a shield arm, weapon arm, or inability to move (walk, run) without hindrance. Perhaps even a eye, or a throat shot. (If anyone saw Kingdom of Heaven think of the German in the first battle) 3. I do not account for where they aim and what specific armor is located there, as I mentioned, its a natural 20 only for that reason. 4. I do however allow for prestige classes, such as the assassin and characters with specific weapon feat proficiency feats to broaden the natural 20 to become their weapons critical range, such as 19-20, 18-20 and so on. For us, this has worked great, and does not seems to unbalance things, and yes, monsters can also do this to players. It has been used at times to try and disrupt a spell caster, stop a charging creature, and remove the shield from an over tough to hit opponent. Not always successful.
Mandarbgrim 11-09-06, 12:18 PM	I think the only fix that is needed is to have a "Power Attack" feat for Light Weapons & Missile Weapons.
kliate 11-09-06, 12:21 PM	1) Take a -4 penalty to your attack roll 2) Double your critical threat range (Does not stack with Keen, Improved Critical, or similar abilities) 3) Remember that -4 penalty when rolling to confirm.
wrecan 11-09-06, 12:35 PM	Quick and Dirty Called Shots Feats: Called Shot to the Hand: Improved Disarm Called Shot to the Leg: Improved Trip Called Shot to the Vitals: Power Attack Called Shot to an Item: Improved Sunder There are Feats in Complete Warrior for ranged disarm and sunder, and a Power Attack-like Feat for thrown weapons in Complete Adventurer, and the Dead-Eye Shot in Players Handbook 2. No reason you couldn't have a Ranged Trip feat.
Lord Ian Stark 11-09-06, 12:51 PM	As everyone has already said, every attack your doing is a called shot. Otherwise you're just flailing around blindly which I doubt. If you want more than just that, then Wrecan has put nicely the feats and rules that apply to 3.5 edition called shots. DO NOT just -4 from any attack and say it's a called shot. That penalty is rediculously low even to low level characters. To mid to high level characters it's nonexistant with the high BaB that insues. Especially when you apply it to touch attacks from spells which will be even more devistating and make spellcasters even more powerful than the already huge gap between fighter classes and spellcasters. In 3.5 the only way to evenly make a houserule on called shots is use a Percentile chance to hit modified by bonuses from class level and BaB. If the percent is failed, it's a total miss with no damage. That will deter the every attack called shot that will slow down gameplay and make battles useless.
The man they call Boxhead 11-09-06, 01:03 PM	Trip, Sunder and Power Attack are the best ways to handle called shots. I have considered implementing a "Fighting Offensively" option into my games. Basically, take a -4 to hit for +2 damage/+4 damage with a 2 handed melee attack. Call it Power Attack Lite. It's for those characters that don;t have Power Attack, but need to do some more damage. Same principle as fight ing defensively.
Sulaco 11-09-06, 02:18 PM	I'd advise against it. D&D just isn't the system for zoned damage. If I were going to do it, however, it would probably be something like this (totally off the top of my head, so the numbers may be FUBAR): leg/foot -4 to hit if successful target's movement halved until healing received arm/hand -6 to hit If successful target drops held weapon or item head -8 to hit increase critical threat range and damage multiplier by 1 (19-20/x2 becomes 18-20/x3, for example)
makeshiftwings 11-09-06, 02:55 PM	A method I use that works well within the rules and isn't very abusable is this: any attack that would normally kill the target, either from damage or a successful coup de grace, can instead be made to do whatever the attacker wants it to do. So, if you want to cut off someone's arm, or poke out their eyes, or whatever, you basically need to first defeat them in combat. It stops the rule from being abusable, but also sidesteps the annoying core rule of "sorry, it's physically impossible to cut off anyone's hand".
Sulaco 11-09-06, 02:59 PM	A method I use that works well within the rules and isn't very abusable is this: any attack that would normally kill the target, either from damage or a successful coup de grace, can instead be made to do whatever the attacker wants it to do. So, if you want to cut off someone's arm, or poke out their eyes, or whatever, you basically need to first defeat them in combat. It stops the rule from being abusable, but also sidesteps the annoying core rule of "sorry, it's physically impossible to cut off anyone's hand". Interesting. I like it. Does the CdG/mortal damage also apply or is it essentially "replaced" by the specific injury? I would think the latter, else why bother with it at all, but how exactly do you run it?
fatal error 11-09-06, 03:07 PM	What kind of Called Shot is your Player trying to do? If it is for extra damage, just tell him his character is already trying his best to kill the foe, including hitting it in vital locations. If he wanted to do something else, well, that would depend on the specific circumstance. Several feats exist for called shots, such as Hamstring, though it relies on sneak attack damage being sacrificed. And, in my opinion, those feats should be integrated into the combat system like Trip, Disarm and Sunder are. Because really, what rogue spends a precious feat on the highly situational ability that is Hamstring?
makeshiftwings 11-09-06, 03:19 PM	Interesting. I like it. Does the CdG/mortal damage also apply or is it essentially "replaced" by the specific injury? I would think the latter, else why bother with it at all, but how exactly do you run it? Yes, the mortal damage is replaced by the called shot effect, though generally I've put the target at either 1 or 0 hp depending on the severity of whatever injury the players inflict upon them. I don't have a specific list of penalties for what injuries would do, since most of the time no one would use the system for combat advantage since you'd be better off just killing the target the first time. Mostly my players have used it to allow them to do cinematic scenes like putting a sword through someone's leg and pinning them to the floor so they can question him, or the aforementioned example of cutting off someone's hand and then letting them go to teach them a lesson.
Sim_antix 11-09-06, 03:25 PM	House Rule For every Full Round Action you spend aiming at your target you recieve a +2 to Attack and Damage Rolls. You also recieve +2 per round spent aiming to confirm a critical if you threaten one. I feel that this is fair since it allows for some increases but at the cost of being able to do other things in those rounds spent aiming. Its not just for ranged attacks either, I have the executioner spend 3 rounds "lining up" his blow with his axe/sword. This makes sense to me and my playrs like it.
justdmjeff 11-09-06, 05:11 PM	House Rule For every Full Round Action you spend aiming at your target you recieve a +2 to Attack and Damage Rolls. You also recieve +2 per round spent aiming to confirm a critical if you threaten one. I feel that this is fair since it allows for some increases but at the cost of being able to do other things in those rounds spent aiming. Its not just for ranged attacks either, I have the executioner spend 3 rounds "lining up" his blow with his axe/sword. This makes sense to me and my playrs like it. Do they have to make a concentration check? Do they lose DEX to AC?
EscherEnigma 11-09-06, 05:44 PM	A method I use that works well within the rules and isn't very abusable is this: any attack that would normally kill the target, either from damage or a successful coup de grace, can instead be made to do whatever the attacker wants it to do. So, if you want to cut off someone's arm, or poke out their eyes, or whatever, you basically need to first defeat them in combat. It stops the rule from being abusable, but also sidesteps the annoying core rule of "sorry, it's physically impossible to cut off anyone's hand". This sounds familiar. Was this, or something similar to it, posted on WotC Star Wars d20 site once? I think I remember reading something simliar to this where the goal of the mechanic was to allow jedi to lop off limbs to end fights like the movies. Anyway, the mechanic makes sense to me: it ends the fight (or at least, that target's contribution to the fight) in most cases, but only if that target would have been removed from the fight anyway, allows more cinematic sequences, makes it so that if nothing else a DM can look at his dice, go 'oh [censored]' and say the BBEG lops off your arm laughing instead of just dropping the hero to -32 outright. Anyway, I'd forgotten about this mechanic, but I think I'm going to propose it to my group. Oh, and to the original poster: called shots don't work too well in D&D due to the abstraction of AC, HP, damage, and, well, most of the combat sequences really. I've found that it works much better in a system that was built from the ground up with damage to specific body parts in mind, and that in adding it to an existing system is difficult to do well. Good luck with whatever you choose to do.
kliate 11-09-06, 06:24 PM	House Rule For every Full Round Action you spend aiming at your target you recieve a +2 to Attack and Damage Rolls. You also recieve +2 per round spent aiming to confirm a critical if you threaten one. I hope there's a limit to this, otherwise you'll have rogues opening combat from a hiding position with +500 to attack and damage
Messer 11-09-06, 07:30 PM	What kind of Called Shot is your Player trying to do? This is the question I needed to be asked, actually... this came as something of a 'good' question that went basically like this.... Cleric, "Do it, shoot at them before they leave!" Scout, "I raise my knocked bow, and... wait, Cant I shoot the horse in the heart, or the shoulder. I mean, a hunter would shoot a deer in the heart, and the thing wouldnt run too far." Cleric, "Thats a good idea." Warlock, "Yeah, when I was hunting, you aimed for the heart, and often didn't have to look too far, if you got it" ..... As a DM, I rememberd called shots, and I thought about this... and a couple of systems came to mind, mainly "Mech-Warrior" and all the variants. Area Damage, Critical dammage... etc.... so, I think its time I had a look at the complete warrior, and see what a player can't do with a bow.
Lord Ian Stark 11-09-06, 10:58 PM	This is the question I needed to be asked, actually... this came as something of a 'good' question that went basically like this.... Cleric, "Do it, shoot at them before they leave!" Scout, "I raise my knocked bow, and... wait, Cant I shoot the horse in the heart, or the shoulder. I mean, a hunter would shoot a deer in the heart, and the thing wouldnt run too far." Cleric, "Thats a good idea." Warlock, "Yeah, when I was hunting, you aimed for the heart, and often didn't have to look too far, if you got it" ..... As a DM, I rememberd called shots, and I thought about this... and a couple of systems came to mind, mainly "Mech-Warrior" and all the variants. Area Damage, Critical dammage... etc.... so, I think its time I had a look at the complete warrior, and see what a player can't do with a bow. Percentile shot my friend. Depending on what you're trying to hit and how much percent of the body it takes up is a way to do it. Say the legs are a 40% chance, the arms are 25%, the head is 10%, eyes are 5% , etc... (percentages will vary depending on the creatures body.) Then add BaB and Class level to the Percentage chance to hit and if you miss the percentile then it's a total miss and it deflects off harmlessly.
fatal error 11-09-06, 11:21 PM	This is the question I needed to be asked, actually... this came as something of a 'good' question that went basically like this.... Cleric, "Do it, shoot at them before they leave!" Scout, "I raise my knocked bow, and... wait, Cant I shoot the horse in the heart, or the shoulder. I mean, a hunter would shoot a deer in the heart, and the thing wouldnt run too far." Cleric, "Thats a good idea." Warlock, "Yeah, when I was hunting, you aimed for the heart, and often didn't have to look too far, if you got it" ..... As a DM, I rememberd called shots, and I thought about this... and a couple of systems came to mind, mainly "Mech-Warrior" and all the variants. Area Damage, Critical dammage... etc.... so, I think its time I had a look at the complete warrior, and see what a player can't do with a bow. In this case I would just say something like: "Okay, you aim for the heart." Then, for a less than spectacular damage roll, say: "Your shot is off by an inch, and seems to have been deflected by a rib, but it still buries itself into the horseflesh." Or: "The horse rears suddenly as the battle continues, your shot buries into its shoulder but misses the heart." Something to the effect to show that while he was aiming at the heart, it doesn't mean he's going to hit on anything but a crit.
Edymnion 11-09-06, 11:50 PM	Take Power Attack. Remove the limitation of being melee only. Lets see, you take a penalty to hit in order to do more damage. Aka, you are making a more difficult shot in order to do more damage. Aka, you are making a Called Shot. Easy enough.
Sim_antix 11-10-06, 02:29 AM	The target must be within range the entire time and you can only aim for a number of rounds equal to your HD
Messer 11-10-06, 07:58 AM	Sweet, thanks everyone... I'll talk to the players next week, and perhapse, just perhapse, they will enjoy thier potions... or, they may not, but thanks all the same.
Senevri 11-10-06, 10:35 AM	Hmm. In a way, Power Attack = called shot. Harder to hit-> more damage. Since the specific target one hits is abstracted, called shot=more damage.
Frugal 11-10-06, 11:03 AM	Hmm. In a way, Power Attack = called shot. Harder to hit-> more damage. Since the specific target one hits is abstracted, called shot=more damage. I see Power Attack as being more of a situation of swinging harder at the expense of accuracy in terms of flavour. But yeah, the mechanic works well for a ranged version to represent some type of called shot.
Sulaco 11-10-06, 11:03 AM	Something to the effect to show that while he was aiming at the heart, it doesn't mean he's going to hit on anything but a crit. Precisely. You are always assumed to be aiming for a vital area, a critical hit means you succeeded in hitting it.