1 Dimensional Party [Archive] - Wizards Community

1 Dimensional Party [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
xxxsammaelxxx
08-19-05, 02:56 PM Ok, the key issue here is the fun level for both the players and the DM is starting to drop rapidly.

WF Figher(6) Juggernaut(2)
Elf Rogue(8)
Elf Druid(8)
Elf Wizard(8)

The party (first real PnP game after a few years of HEAVY MMORPG gaming) Is all designed like an online game now. Everyone is pimped out for AC and DPS.

Everyone wants to be the fighter. The party has Nothing for Utility. nothing for social skills. Nothing for non-combat skills at all (witht the exception of trap skills).

So what i have is a party that in a straight Tank-Fest, trading blows, can take down a mob 3 CR's higher with thier eyes closed. But as soon as anything becomes even the least bit complicated. The party falls apart, and challenges that should be easy are extraordinarily hard. (and the whining and sulking begins)

Now that they are lvl 8, every encounter seems to be a fight to the death. They all have great damage output. But they seem to have no plan for anything,

I tried to demonstrate this to the party.
When the party was lvl 6, A single Kobold Cleric(4) very nearly defeated them all simply by utilizing a few well placed utility spells before the party could close.

After every session i get "How was that fair", to which i answer
-If you had used (insert random utility spell here) the encounter would of been a joke. And i dont mean rare, not likely memmed stuff, but staple spells, like Prot Evil, Disp Magic, etc etc.
- You knew 3 mos ago you were fighting a vampire BBEG. did ANYONE go to a church or a library and check to see what hurts a Vampire
-(dm)The body of the last person sent to hunt this creature lies dead at your feet
(players)we check the body
(dm)you find cold iron longsword, cold iron mace, and 2 cold iron daggers.
(players) cold iron doesnt sell for crap, we leave the stuff there
(players 5 rooms later) Why Cant i damage this Damn thing!

Every feat/skill point/character option is strictly used for Damage output and armor class. Every gold piece acquired is pooled into another weapon/armor enchantment.

Now the game is begenning to degenerate.

My question is.

1. Do i allow the game to degenerate, and change the encounters so all the players ever face are monsters they are designed to fight (ie. straight fighter monsters with no innate abilities) because that seems to be what the players want.
(they certainly complain loud enough when ever it isnt like that).

2. Or do I be heartless, and let the world evolve independantly of the players.
(Your facing Undead. Yes, they are hard, but you went druid instead of cleric to get more DPS from summoned animals, these are the consequences of that choice)

The second choice is the fair one, in my eyes. but it doesnt address the issue of the fun level declining in our games of late.

Anyways, more of a rant than anything else. I have been becoming increasingly frustrated of late. The whining of the players is starting to get to me, not that any single player is doing it excessively, its more of, they seem to manage it in initiative order, so only one is complaining at any particular time :P
Elrana
08-19-05, 03:21 PM How about you introduce a useful NPC party member who can 'tutor' them in how to be flexible and multi-dimensional and then stick with option 2?

:)
Milandros
08-19-05, 03:28 PM It's a tricky question to answer. You don't want them to stop having fun, but you have just as much right to enjoy yourself as they do - and it seems obvious you're not.

I think you have to chat with them, ask them what they want from the game and tell them your own problems. You might want to do this one-on-one, then again as a group. If they realy just want hack/slash/loot/sell/wait for "mobs" to respawn, then perhaps either going back to a MMORPG as a group might be an option - it's a lot less work for you, for a start - or maybe drop to something more tactical and less roleplay, like D&D miniatures combat. Make each game a tactical battlemap and leave it at that. At least then you're not having to put all the work into creating adventures they complain about because it isn't just a dungeon full of orcs.

Communication is always the key to such matters. I presume that you're playing with a group of friends rather than a bunch of people you met through a message board or something. Talk with them, as a friend rather than as the DM. It might work out.
Salla
08-19-05, 03:28 PM I would just look them straight in the face and say, "Well, you keep making rookie mistakes, and you keep paying for them. Learn from your mistakes, and things will go a lot smoother for you," and cite specific examples.

If you want to be a real (censored) ... I mean, jerk, make a Mirror Party. Create this exact same party, but evil (or opposite whatever alignment they are), take the same feat choices, with one exception ... make them two levels lower, and equip them as NPCs of the appropriate level. Give the PCs hints that they're about to fight themselves (maybe they witness themselves being cloned somehow).

Then, since everybody here should know each other well enough, give each party time to prepare to fight themselves ... say, the PCs know where the bad guys' eventual final destination is (and the Mirror PCs can sense their counterparts), so in a week or so, there'll be a dramatic showdown in the streets of InsertTownHere.

Prepare your Mirror PCs with utility spells and tactics that play off one another, the things you wish your players would do. Few things will embarass a player more than getting whupped by a weaker, but smarter, version of yourself.
tarkin
08-19-05, 03:33 PM You need to create a single NPC party member. Have him be a single level behind the rest of the party.

Have him do all the stuff the fools don't do.

Like take the Cold Iron weapons.

Etc. etc.

When he starts killing creatures, the rest of the party will start to notice things.
lonesoldier
08-19-05, 03:43 PM Option 2.

(Or "Rocks fall, everyone dies")
Salla
08-19-05, 03:45 PM When he starts killing creatures, the rest of the party will start to notice things.

This may backfire, though ... given the psychology evident in these players, they may just sit back, say 'cool', and let the NPC handle all the work while they still rake in the loot.
Dragonsblood
08-19-05, 03:49 PM If I were you, I'd scrap the whole campaign and start a new one at level 1 so that they can learn how the game works from the beginning. They're playing like level 1 newbies, so they don't deserve to have level 8 characters. Don't spoil them with too much wealth, and tell them that this isn't a MMO where everyone's role is damage dealer. Offer character building advice freely and ENCOURAGE ROLEPLAY.

Another idea, since everyone wants to be a fighter, is to start a new campaign where everyone IS a fighter. Create a low arcane magic world where an all fighter party is actually feasable (with cheap cure potions available at any town church). Clerics/druids are common, but the vast majority are too timid to adventure, so no PC healers. Low arcane magic means NO magic mart. Virtually all magic weapons and armor are loot or quest rewards, and they are rare. Make sure you tell the players the details ahead of time and let them deside if they like the idea before you really take the time to build this world. When throwing monsters and other challenges at them, keep in mind that CR will be very different because the listed CRs assume the PCs are fully geared with a variety of classes.
imperialjunkie
08-19-05, 04:10 PM My kneejerk reaction is to just be realistic in your game and let them adapt and learn. If they don't pick up the cold iron weapons, then they have a tough time with the undead or demon or whatever.

But... my kneejerk reaction is not always the best. Like someone else said- Milandros I think- talk with them. If they're playing the way they want to, then you can't fault them for that. You could tailor the game to them or you could stop. That's the tough thing with the game-- the point is to have fun, but sometimes people are entertained by different things. I would never want to play in a hack n' slash game. But I know some enjoy that. If my players were all hack n' slash and I wanted RP, then we would have a problem. Someone will not be having fun. If neither are willing to compromise and play a different way, then it's probably best to end the game. Not really the nice fun alternative. But in the situation there might not be any good alternative.
MorbidThoughts
08-19-05, 04:18 PM But... my kneejerk reaction is not always the best. Like someone else said- Milandros I think- talk with them. If they're playing the way they want to, then you can't fault them for that. You could tailor the game to them or you could stop. That's the tough thing with the game-- the point is to have fun, but sometimes people are entertained by different things. I would never want to play in a hack n' slash game. But I know some enjoy that. If my players were all hack n' slash and I wanted RP, then we would have a problem. Someone will not be having fun. If neither are willing to compromise and play a different way, then it's probably best to end the game. Not really the nice fun alternative. But in the situation there might not be any good alternative.

At monte cook's web site there is a variant players handbook called Iron Heros, which features a low magic campaigne where all the classes are combat based.
i havent read it but i heard it is a good book for the hack and slash type
http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_IL
Quoriil
08-19-05, 04:49 PM Is there a way to deprogram MMORPG players so that they are capable of playing an enjoyable character that is more of a person and less of a indestructible death machine? The group of guys I game with (myself included) all suffer from the MMO mentality to some degree and it would be grand if we could get back to a point where we got joy from the telling of a story and not the relentless advancement of our 'toons'...
Murrdox
08-19-05, 04:52 PM Yell at your players REALLY LOUD...

THIS IS NOT EVERQUEST!!!

God... the mere THOUGHT of min-max players (which it sounds like your players are) using Everquest crap terminology to refer to D&D sickens me.

Stop playing D&D and start playing Everquest again. Or go buy the Diablo D&D rules expansion and play that. Your players obviously don't want to ROLEPLAY. They just want to kill stuff.

I'm actually in agreement with the person that suggested scrapping their "Made for DPS" characters. You're not going to get much roleplaying out of these guys when they're all designed to be combat borgs.
Murrdox
08-19-05, 04:59 PM Is there a way to deprogram MMORPG players so that they are capable of playing an enjoyable character that is more of a person and less of a indestructible death machine? The group of guys I game with (myself included) all suffer from the MMO mentality to some degree and it would be grand if we could get back to a point where we got joy from the telling of a story and not the relentless advancement of our 'toons'...

START A LEVEL ONE ADVENTURE. I'm serious.

Level 1 characters can't take more than one or two hits before they die. They have NO magic items, NO magic armor, and almost NO special abilities.

Create a "Mystery" adventure that they can solve in 2 playing sessions which will get them to level 2 at the end. A maximum of 4 combat encounters should be required.

The adventure should focus on learning information from NPCs, and you should not let the characters get the easy way out and just make Charisma rolls and Gather Information checks to figure it out.

Things like tracking a murderer, finding a stolen item, rescuing a missing person...

If that doesn't get them roleplaying, and they hate it... then you're dealing with a lost cause. These kind of adventures will drag the roleplayer out of nearly anybody.
Dragonsblood
08-19-05, 06:55 PM Murrdox, that brings back memories of my first RPG mystery. That was one of the funnest sessions I've had. I think there were only two combats after we discovered that the culprit was a ghost - one where we fought it, but it fled. And one where we found it a second time and killed it.
Serielle
08-19-05, 08:09 PM I find the thought of trying to optomize a character for Damage Per Second in a turn based game to be hilarious. It's the perfect example of approaching D&D like an MMOPRG,

Honestly, the sad part is that combat in D&D is a lot more interesting than just trading blow for blow the way it does tend to be on MMORPGs. I can see players complaining about having to solve puzzles, but complaining that combat isn't a linear bore fest as it is in MMORPGs...?

Yeah. I can't think of a way to get them used to the fact that combat is more than just raw damage output than whupping their butt consistently and explaining to them why and how they got their butt whooped, and hope they get the picture.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xxxsammaelxxx 08-19-05, 02:56 PM	Ok, the key issue here is the fun level for both the players and the DM is starting to drop rapidly. WF Figher(6) Juggernaut(2) Elf Rogue(8) Elf Druid(8) Elf Wizard(8) The party (first real PnP game after a few years of HEAVY MMORPG gaming) Is all designed like an online game now. Everyone is pimped out for AC and DPS. Everyone wants to be the fighter. The party has Nothing for Utility. nothing for social skills. Nothing for non-combat skills at all (witht the exception of trap skills). So what i have is a party that in a straight Tank-Fest, trading blows, can take down a mob 3 CR's higher with thier eyes closed. But as soon as anything becomes even the least bit complicated. The party falls apart, and challenges that should be easy are extraordinarily hard. (and the whining and sulking begins) Now that they are lvl 8, every encounter seems to be a fight to the death. They all have great damage output. But they seem to have no plan for anything, I tried to demonstrate this to the party. When the party was lvl 6, A single Kobold Cleric(4) very nearly defeated them all simply by utilizing a few well placed utility spells before the party could close. After every session i get "How was that fair", to which i answer -If you had used (insert random utility spell here) the encounter would of been a joke. And i dont mean rare, not likely memmed stuff, but staple spells, like Prot Evil, Disp Magic, etc etc. - You knew 3 mos ago you were fighting a vampire BBEG. did ANYONE go to a church or a library and check to see what hurts a Vampire -(dm)The body of the last person sent to hunt this creature lies dead at your feet (players)we check the body (dm)you find cold iron longsword, cold iron mace, and 2 cold iron daggers. (players) cold iron doesnt sell for crap, we leave the stuff there (players 5 rooms later) Why Cant i damage this Damn thing! Every feat/skill point/character option is strictly used for Damage output and armor class. Every gold piece acquired is pooled into another weapon/armor enchantment. Now the game is begenning to degenerate. My question is. 1. Do i allow the game to degenerate, and change the encounters so all the players ever face are monsters they are designed to fight (ie. straight fighter monsters with no innate abilities) because that seems to be what the players want. (they certainly complain loud enough when ever it isnt like that). 2. Or do I be heartless, and let the world evolve independantly of the players. (Your facing Undead. Yes, they are hard, but you went druid instead of cleric to get more DPS from summoned animals, these are the consequences of that choice) The second choice is the fair one, in my eyes. but it doesnt address the issue of the fun level declining in our games of late. Anyways, more of a rant than anything else. I have been becoming increasingly frustrated of late. The whining of the players is starting to get to me, not that any single player is doing it excessively, its more of, they seem to manage it in initiative order, so only one is complaining at any particular time :P
Elrana 08-19-05, 03:21 PM	How about you introduce a useful NPC party member who can 'tutor' them in how to be flexible and multi-dimensional and then stick with option 2? :)
Milandros 08-19-05, 03:28 PM	It's a tricky question to answer. You don't want them to stop having fun, but you have just as much right to enjoy yourself as they do - and it seems obvious you're not. I think you have to chat with them, ask them what they want from the game and tell them your own problems. You might want to do this one-on-one, then again as a group. If they realy just want hack/slash/loot/sell/wait for "mobs" to respawn, then perhaps either going back to a MMORPG as a group might be an option - it's a lot less work for you, for a start - or maybe drop to something more tactical and less roleplay, like D&D miniatures combat. Make each game a tactical battlemap and leave it at that. At least then you're not having to put all the work into creating adventures they complain about because it isn't just a dungeon full of orcs. Communication is always the key to such matters. I presume that you're playing with a group of friends rather than a bunch of people you met through a message board or something. Talk with them, as a friend rather than as the DM. It might work out.
Salla 08-19-05, 03:28 PM	I would just look them straight in the face and say, "Well, you keep making rookie mistakes, and you keep paying for them. Learn from your mistakes, and things will go a lot smoother for you," and cite specific examples. If you want to be a real (censored) ... I mean, jerk, make a Mirror Party. Create this exact same party, but evil (or opposite whatever alignment they are), take the same feat choices, with one exception ... make them two levels lower, and equip them as NPCs of the appropriate level. Give the PCs hints that they're about to fight themselves (maybe they witness themselves being cloned somehow). Then, since everybody here should know each other well enough, give each party time to prepare to fight themselves ... say, the PCs know where the bad guys' eventual final destination is (and the Mirror PCs can sense their counterparts), so in a week or so, there'll be a dramatic showdown in the streets of InsertTownHere. Prepare your Mirror PCs with utility spells and tactics that play off one another, the things you wish your players would do. Few things will embarass a player more than getting whupped by a weaker, but smarter, version of yourself.
tarkin 08-19-05, 03:33 PM	You need to create a single NPC party member. Have him be a single level behind the rest of the party. Have him do all the stuff the fools don't do. Like take the Cold Iron weapons. Etc. etc. When he starts killing creatures, the rest of the party will start to notice things.
lonesoldier 08-19-05, 03:43 PM	Option 2. (Or "Rocks fall, everyone dies")
Salla 08-19-05, 03:45 PM	When he starts killing creatures, the rest of the party will start to notice things. This may backfire, though ... given the psychology evident in these players, they may just sit back, say 'cool', and let the NPC handle all the work while they still rake in the loot.
Dragonsblood 08-19-05, 03:49 PM	If I were you, I'd scrap the whole campaign and start a new one at level 1 so that they can learn how the game works from the beginning. They're playing like level 1 newbies, so they don't deserve to have level 8 characters. Don't spoil them with too much wealth, and tell them that this isn't a MMO where everyone's role is damage dealer. Offer character building advice freely and ENCOURAGE ROLEPLAY. Another idea, since everyone wants to be a fighter, is to start a new campaign where everyone IS a fighter. Create a low arcane magic world where an all fighter party is actually feasable (with cheap cure potions available at any town church). Clerics/druids are common, but the vast majority are too timid to adventure, so no PC healers. Low arcane magic means NO magic mart. Virtually all magic weapons and armor are loot or quest rewards, and they are rare. Make sure you tell the players the details ahead of time and let them deside if they like the idea before you really take the time to build this world. When throwing monsters and other challenges at them, keep in mind that CR will be very different because the listed CRs assume the PCs are fully geared with a variety of classes.
imperialjunkie 08-19-05, 04:10 PM	My kneejerk reaction is to just be realistic in your game and let them adapt and learn. If they don't pick up the cold iron weapons, then they have a tough time with the undead or demon or whatever. But... my kneejerk reaction is not always the best. Like someone else said- Milandros I think- talk with them. If they're playing the way they want to, then you can't fault them for that. You could tailor the game to them or you could stop. That's the tough thing with the game-- the point is to have fun, but sometimes people are entertained by different things. I would never want to play in a hack n' slash game. But I know some enjoy that. If my players were all hack n' slash and I wanted RP, then we would have a problem. Someone will not be having fun. If neither are willing to compromise and play a different way, then it's probably best to end the game. Not really the nice fun alternative. But in the situation there might not be any good alternative.
MorbidThoughts 08-19-05, 04:18 PM	But... my kneejerk reaction is not always the best. Like someone else said- Milandros I think- talk with them. If they're playing the way they want to, then you can't fault them for that. You could tailor the game to them or you could stop. That's the tough thing with the game-- the point is to have fun, but sometimes people are entertained by different things. I would never want to play in a hack n' slash game. But I know some enjoy that. If my players were all hack n' slash and I wanted RP, then we would have a problem. Someone will not be having fun. If neither are willing to compromise and play a different way, then it's probably best to end the game. Not really the nice fun alternative. But in the situation there might not be any good alternative. At monte cook's web site there is a variant players handbook called Iron Heros, which features a low magic campaigne where all the classes are combat based. i havent read it but i heard it is a good book for the hack and slash type http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_IL
Quoriil 08-19-05, 04:49 PM	Is there a way to deprogram MMORPG players so that they are capable of playing an enjoyable character that is more of a person and less of a indestructible death machine? The group of guys I game with (myself included) all suffer from the MMO mentality to some degree and it would be grand if we could get back to a point where we got joy from the telling of a story and not the relentless advancement of our 'toons'...
Murrdox 08-19-05, 04:52 PM	Yell at your players REALLY LOUD... THIS IS NOT EVERQUEST!!! God... the mere THOUGHT of min-max players (which it sounds like your players are) using Everquest crap terminology to refer to D&D sickens me. Stop playing D&D and start playing Everquest again. Or go buy the Diablo D&D rules expansion and play that. Your players obviously don't want to ROLEPLAY. They just want to kill stuff. I'm actually in agreement with the person that suggested scrapping their "Made for DPS" characters. You're not going to get much roleplaying out of these guys when they're all designed to be combat borgs.
Murrdox 08-19-05, 04:59 PM	Is there a way to deprogram MMORPG players so that they are capable of playing an enjoyable character that is more of a person and less of a indestructible death machine? The group of guys I game with (myself included) all suffer from the MMO mentality to some degree and it would be grand if we could get back to a point where we got joy from the telling of a story and not the relentless advancement of our 'toons'... START A LEVEL ONE ADVENTURE. I'm serious. Level 1 characters can't take more than one or two hits before they die. They have NO magic items, NO magic armor, and almost NO special abilities. Create a "Mystery" adventure that they can solve in 2 playing sessions which will get them to level 2 at the end. A maximum of 4 combat encounters should be required. The adventure should focus on learning information from NPCs, and you should not let the characters get the easy way out and just make Charisma rolls and Gather Information checks to figure it out. Things like tracking a murderer, finding a stolen item, rescuing a missing person... If that doesn't get them roleplaying, and they hate it... then you're dealing with a lost cause. These kind of adventures will drag the roleplayer out of nearly anybody.
Dragonsblood 08-19-05, 06:55 PM	Murrdox, that brings back memories of my first RPG mystery. That was one of the funnest sessions I've had. I think there were only two combats after we discovered that the culprit was a ghost - one where we fought it, but it fled. And one where we found it a second time and killed it.
Serielle 08-19-05, 08:09 PM	I find the thought of trying to optomize a character for Damage Per Second in a turn based game to be hilarious. It's the perfect example of approaching D&D like an MMOPRG, Honestly, the sad part is that combat in D&D is a lot more interesting than just trading blow for blow the way it does tend to be on MMORPGs. I can see players complaining about having to solve puzzles, but complaining that combat isn't a linear bore fest as it is in MMORPGs...? Yeah. I can't think of a way to get them used to the fact that combat is more than just raw damage output than whupping their butt consistently and explaining to them why and how they got their butt whooped, and hope they get the picture.