Post/Author/DateTime	Post
samoosa691 03-14-04, 08:10 PM	quick question: Does this also include spells known? or just spells per day for prestige classes? (that grant +1 existing any way)
Bopple 03-14-04, 08:20 PM	Yes, it includes new spells known.
samoosa691 03-14-04, 08:25 PM	because there is nothing in the phb that states you get added to your spells known...., that is why i'm asking. I'd like a page number for reference.
primemover003 03-14-04, 09:09 PM	It wouldn't be in the PHB... it's gonna be in the DMG under spells and spells/day in each individual PrC class description. An example from the SRD Spells per Day: When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
Bopple 03-14-04, 09:47 PM	I can¡¯t find any information about how many spells prestige class spellcasters know. I am going on the presumption that those that gain bonus spells per day of their existing class (such as loremaster and spellsword) do not automatically add additional spells to their spellbook as they gain levels. They do add spells to their lists. For example, a wizard /loremaster gains 2 spells for her spellbook when using a loremaster level to increase spellcasting. A sorcerer/loremaster would learn more spells as well. Adding spells to your spellbook or personal repertoire is part of spellcasting. Quoted from 3.0 FAQ.
samoosa691 03-14-04, 11:33 PM	Originally posted by primemover003 It wouldn't be in the PHB... it's gonna be in the DMG under spells and spells/day in each individual PrC class description. An example from the SRD this still does not answer my question, certain prestige classes get spells known, unless it specifies my dm argued that i don't recieve two extra spells known, I have to buy scrolls..., I need a quote from dmg/phb to prove otherwise. On another note, some prestige classes like lore master, SPECIFICALLY says gains two more spells known, where as the others just say it increases their spells per day.
Remnant 03-14-04, 11:47 PM	DMG, 3.5, pg. 191 "A loremaster continues training in magic as well as her field of research. Thus, when a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in the spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class." For all purposes related to spell casting, the character gains a level in their original spell casting class, and gains all benefits that come with it, except where specified by the PrC. - this usually means that the character does not recieve feats that would normally go to the original spell casting class.
Remnant 03-14-04, 11:53 PM	Originally posted by Remnant DMG, 3.5, pg. 191 "A loremaster continues training in magic as well as her field of research. Thus, when a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in the spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class." For all purposes related to spell casting, the character gains a level in their original spell casting class, and gains all benefits that come with it, except where specified by the PrC. - this usually means that the character does not recieve feats that would normally go to the original spell casting class. I'm not seeing anything. However, there is no clear distinction between the two situations other than the wording of individual PrC descriptions. Were this meant to be a differentiation, there would more than likely be a clearer distinguishing between the instances, other than a few words in parantheses. Furthermore, the increase in PrC is treated in all respects like an increase in caster level, (with regards to spells) save for the differences in feats. If spells known does not increase, the sorcerer is far more limited than the wizard, which doesn't make a great deal of sense, with such efforts being taken to balance the classes. In any game I DM, I will rule the increase in caster level applies to spells known.
samoosa691 03-14-04, 11:59 PM	you guys are beating around the bush, that's been said and it specifically states for the LORE MASTER PRESTIGE CLASS. I've got the SPELLSWORD PRESTIGE CLASS and it only says +1 existing class, does not specifically say any where about the spells known.
Remnant 03-15-04, 12:12 AM	Look, you're going to have to use a little bit of logic. As I said above (after edit) restricting the spells known hurts sorcerers for no particularly good reason. It only seems logical that spells known are increased. There is no differentiation between the entries other than a few words in parenthesis, and to restrict sorcerers based souly off of that, is, to be blunt, asinine. And I don't even like sorcerers.
Bopple 03-15-04, 12:35 AM	Huh, we are beating around the bush? Sorry, but it is you who is misunderstanding. Read the FAQ I have shown, again. For example, a wizard/loremaster gains 2 spells for her spellbook Emphasis mine. It's an example. Period.
Nom 03-15-04, 12:43 AM	Originally posted by samoosa691 you guys are beating around the bush, that's been said and it specifically states for the LORE MASTER PRESTIGE CLASS. I've got the SPELLSWORD PRESTIGE CLASS and it only says +1 existing class, does not specifically say any where about the spells known.The exact wording varies between class. Most of the classes in the 3.5 DMG add parenthetically "(and spells known if applicable)". Note that it is a parenthetical addition. This means that it is added for clarity, and would not change the intended meaning were it omitted. From this we can draw three conclusions: (1) It is generally intended that +1 level of existing class includes spells. (2) This is considered obvious enough that it does not need stating as a rule, but is included parenthetically for clarity in some cases. (3) The onus is therefore on the rules to explicitly exclude this behaviour. If the rules for a class that provides an "increased level of spellcasting" do not intend for this to apply to all aspects of spellcasting (explicitly spells / day, spells known and caster level), then the onus is on the class to exclude those aspects that they do not intend to include. Otherwise, the expression "an increased level of spellcasting" refers to all aspects thereof.
olshanski_home 03-15-04, 12:02 PM	It sounds like the problem is in the "Spells Known". It is my understanding that when it refers to "Spells Known" it is meant only for the classes like Bard and Sorcerer, where a character has a limited number of spells known. This says nothing at all about wizards abilities to have as many spells in thier book as they find. Spells scribed in a spellbook are "Spells inscribed in a spell book" which is significantly different than a sorcerer's or bards "Spells Known". It's my understanding that if you advance in a prestige class based on a wizard, you'd still get to pick 2 spells per level and add them to your books for free.
Xyplex 03-15-04, 12:31 PM	Even if there isn't a specific mention of it in the PHB or the DMG, I think it would stand as common sense. For example, a 1 Fighter / 6 Sorcerer / 1 Spellsword, would be able to cast spells per day as a 7th level Sorcerer ... however upon gaining the 2nd level of Spellsword they would suddenly gain 3 spells castable per day for 4th level ... but following the logic your DM suggested, they wouldn't know any 4th level spells to be able to cast. This runs contrary to the description "At every odd-numbered level, a spellsword gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spllcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class." Sounds like a DM I know who said that a Devoted Defender had to take the AC of the charge rather than use their own AC ... I mean, if you don't want a Prestige Class, ban it ... don't fiddle with it to make it useless.
Giarc 03-15-04, 04:57 PM	This brings up a very disturbing thing. I looked up the PrCs in the DMG after reading this thread, and some of the Class Features entries (Archmage, Loremaster) say "Spells per Day/Spells Known", and others (Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight) say just "Spells per Day". This would really hurt a Sorcerer who took either the Arcane Trickster or the Eldritch Knight. I checked the errata and this hasn't been changed. I assume the Spellsword falls in with the Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight on this problem. If you go by the books, they don't get new spells known, but this is just silly. If the designer of the PrC wanted just wizards to take it, they would have put something about prepared arcane spells in the requirements to qualify for the PrC. Your DM can rule either way, but if they follow the book to the letter, I think they are hobbling the sorcerers and bards in the game. The selection for these two classes in PrCs is already bad, and to weaken them in the ones they can get into would be a crime. Give them their spells known!
samoosa691 03-15-04, 05:41 PM	Originally posted by Giarc This brings up a very disturbing thing. I looked up the PrCs in the DMG after reading this thread, and some of the Class Features entries (Archmage, Loremaster) say "Spells per Day/Spells Known", and others (Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight) say just "Spells per Day". Give them their spells known! This is exactly the point I have been trying to get across in this post. People keep giving quotes from the prestige classes that specifically say they gain 2 spells in their spells known. I want some clarification on this.
Remnant 03-15-04, 08:18 PM	We understand what your problem is. But, for most of us, its not a problem. The logical conclusion is that the words in parenthesis do not designate a special circumstance- whether they are there or not is unimportant, and are only there for clarity's sake. I mean, just from a balance perspective, it makes no sense to separate the circumstances. I'm sorry, but if any DM that I played with would rule that the PrC must include the "spells known" in order for sorcerers to increase their spells known, I would probably leave- not because of that rule, but because it would be a sign to me that the DM lacked both common sense and flexibility.
artman 03-15-04, 10:30 PM	samoosa691- It is bad form to ask a question if you already know the answer, as it seems you do. It is worse form to get testy, this is just how your posts read, when others try and help you. These good people have tried to give you the clarification you have asked for. They have done so in the only way possible, by giving examples from toher PRCs to set a precedent for consistancy. You seem to have seen that the spellsword specifies only spells per day. If, given the help that you have received here, cannot convince you DM that logically you should get the spells known then you are just out of luck and must play the PRC as written. Hit him with logic, using the info given here. If this fails to convince him, hit him with the PHB;) .
samoosa691 03-15-04, 11:20 PM	Originally posted by artman samoosa691- It is bad form to ask a question if you already know the answer, as it seems you do. It is worse form to get testy, this is just how your posts read, when others try and help you. I am not getting testy some of the replies here are simply repeating what others have stated, I am greatful for the help, but I am trying to figure out solid evidence that states prestige classes get 2 spells known per level when it says +1 existing prestige class. When I ask this I get the same quote staying from the lore master prestige class or what have you. These good people have tried to give you the clarification you have asked for. They have done so in the only way possible, by giving examples from toher PRCs to set a precedent for consistancy. I agree that they are trying to help me the best they can, I simply am not yet satisfied. In addition when someone questions my logic without just cause that is un called for You seem to have seen that the spellsword specifies only spells per day. If, given the help that you have received here, cannot convince you DM that logically you should get the spells known then you are just out of luck and must play the PRC as written. Hit him with logic, using the info given here. If this fails to convince him, hit him with the PHB;) . This is what I will have to do. Since there is no solid evidence in the phb/dmg that states otherwise.
Bopple 03-16-04, 12:04 AM	This is what I will have to do. Since there is no solid evidence in the phb/dmg that states otherwise. Well, as long as it is about Spellsword, no need for worry, since the class is specifically mentioned in FAQ. And as for the main point, consider this: Magic of Faerun errata did corrections on Spells per Day -> Spells per Day/Spells Known, with all the PrCs there. But FRCS errata did nothing for PrCs in it. And one of the PrC is Archmage. So I don't think it is the case as you worry.
TheGogmagog 03-16-04, 11:24 AM	I feel your pain samoosa691, I hate when you ask a question and get replies to a diferent quesion. For what it's worth I don't think you were truculent in your replies. All that aside, yes you have found a nitch in the letter of the rules. There is no clarification I know of that you gain the two spells per day for wizards, spells known for sorcerers along with the spells per day in some of the prestige classes. It would be an unbalancing inequity for clerics not to suffer any penalties, wizards to pay for their new spells, and sorcerers to only be able to use metamagic spells in their slots. But if you are playing in a campaign that goes by Rules as Written (with Erratta/FAQ/Sage advice) it seems that you do not learn the new spells. Be thankful you arn't a sorcerer.
Amatsucan_the_first 03-16-04, 01:03 PM	I had this question in my game as well. As the DM I will rule that the +1 existing class does include learning the new spells as a wizard or sorc. I do see where the confusion comes from though as the description in the DMG for 3.5 does make a difference in the two classes of Archmage and Loremaster. Specifically, it states increase in Spells per Day/Spells Known versus only increase in Spells per Day. For all I know the authors of the PRC's felt that these two classes continue in their magical research more than the other PRC's that also grant the +1 existing class. Any discussion about balance/equality between the classes falls apart completely when a character starts taking prestige classes. These classes are supposed to take the character outside the balance of whatever the basic classes offer, so any thought to balance and equality is wasted. I would like to see something official that clarifies this as well. . . perhaps the sage will answer . . .
KShaver 03-16-04, 02:00 PM	Originally posted by Bopple Well, as long as it is about Spellsword, no need for worry, since the class is specifically mentioned in FAQ. Aye, reread Bopple's quote from the FAQ. Not only is the spellsword mentioned, but it is a general question which gives the answer that all classes get spells known along with spells/day.
samoosa691 03-16-04, 02:19 PM	can someone point me to the right link to the faq, becaues I seem to be blind. Thanks for the replies. Specifically a link to your info, I just have to see it myself.
Kalrin 03-16-04, 02:26 PM	IMHO, it would be best if you went to the following link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=company/feedbackform Reasons should become apparent.
PhaedrusXY 03-17-04, 03:20 PM	Originally posted by samoosa691 can someone point me to the right link to the faq, becaues I seem to be blind. Thanks for the replies. Specifically a link to your info, I just have to see it myself. It is on page 13 of the main 3.0 D&D FAQ, at the bottom left of that page. I can't provide a direct link to the section, because it is a PDF file. You'll have to download/open it and look for yourself.HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) is the address of the FAQs. It is the first one under 3.0 FAQs. The question specifically asks about spellsword (in parenthesis), and the answer is clearly meant to be a generic answer which applies to all PrCs which gain spellcaster levels as they advance. But if your DM is, as Remnant put it, lacking common sense and flexibility as badly as it sounds like he/she is, then this may not do you any good. I doubt Skip Williams showing up in person at his/her house and telling them they're wrong would be enough.
igronimus 03-17-04, 03:39 PM	It's perfectly logical for a wizard not to get free spells when he levels. A sorceror or bard would of course get new spells known when they level, it's sort of an imperative feature of an innate casting class since they can't learn the spells elsewhere. All it takes is a little sprinkle of common sense. In your case, I see it as a perfectly reasonable ruling not give a wizard 2 'free' spells when he levels in a PrC, or for that matter, if he were to level in straight wizard. How on earth do new spells mystically appear in your spellbook? On top of that, if you came back to me and pointed at a book trying to show where my perfectly reasonable ruling was incorrect, I'd take you book and bonk your over the head with it! Of course if you're a sorceror and he's trying to deny you new spells, you should be hitting him with the book!
PhaedrusXY 03-17-04, 11:45 PM	Originally posted by igronimus It's perfectly logical for a wizard not to get free spells when he levels. A sorceror or bard would of course get new spells known when they level, it's sort of an imperative feature of an innate casting class since they can't learn the spells elsewhere.Are you joking? It should be the same for both. I can't believe you talk about common sense in the same post that you advocate treating wizards differently than sorcerers with respect to taking the exact same prestige classes. As far as your comment about "where do the spells come from?" "Do they mystically appear in their spellbook?" The answer is no. They come from the same place as they do for someone taking levels of Wizard. The character is assumed to be constantly researching and having a periodic "breakthrough". This is all explained in the PHB and I shouldn't have to be explaining it, if you indeed had the common sense and knowledge of the rules that you claim to have. If a sorcerer gets new spells from leveling up in a Prestige Class, then so should a wizard. It is the same mechanic. It just happens to not be the only way a wizard can learn new spells. If you have some predjudice against wizards, and want to take it out on them, or think the sorcerer is so weak in comparison that the wizard needs a handicap, then just come out and say it. Don't hide it behind unfair DM rulings. In my opinion, you should be hitting yourself in the head with that book, or better yet, open it up and read it because you clearly have no idea how the rules for wizards gaining new spells work in the first place.
samoosa691 03-18-04, 10:20 AM	I found the proof I need, it's on the magic of faerun errata as one of the replies has mentioned all prestige classes gain 2 spells known for free. Thanks a lot for the replies. THe wording in the dmg prestige classes questions the fact because some of the prestige classes specifically state spells known if applicable. Thanks for the help. Dm ruled in my favor :)
cesare76 07-30-04, 11:05 AM	I posted the same question of yours to WotC and they answer me that adding 2 new spells to spellbook is part of gaining "+1 existing class level"
Kilsek of Sheverash 07-30-04, 11:14 AM	In 3.0, this was very confusing, and I think in 3.5, they made "+1 spellcasting class" mean "spells know and per day go up," as a standard, eliminating confusion. I forgot what book it was in, but I believe it was 3.0: the Elven High Mage CLEARLY got both spells per day and spells known. That is what I remember being the reason why I thought that, in 3.0, your spells known DID NOT increase, but only your spells per day did. And that only the Elven High Mage was different. But anyway, thank God it's not that complicated anymore in 3.5. Now everyone gets spells per day and known increases. Yay!