Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Krackatowa 08-10-06, 09:56 AM	I have a party of four adventures all 8th level except the dwarf who is 7th. They consist of A Dwarven fighter, A Human cleric of mystra, a human Wizard, and a half elf druid. All characters have magical items up to the eyeballs (well at least for their level) I believe with enough preparation and skill and maybe a little bit of luck with the rolls at the right location. I can get a super smart normal singular Kobold to take out the whole party without starting with any magical items and only using attacks and traps that can only be set off by him physically. This Kobold has been seeking revenge since they were level one and if he succeeds they shall be forever known as the party who got wiped out by the "Kobold party slayer" Does anyone think this can be done? because I am going to try this Monday! If anyone is interested I will post on tuesday how i went and what went down. Has anyone tried before such a stunt
KJW 08-10-06, 10:07 AM	And this is how a campaign dissolves into player vs. DM mentality. Can it be done? Sure. Should it be done? No. You really need to be more professional in how you approach DMing, the whole point is to have the trust of your party not to one up them. I would stop and rethink the proposition you have proposed and ask if it is really a good idea.
LCD2YOU 08-10-06, 10:10 AM	The short answer: Yes. The long answer, the Kobold should have a level or two in rogue. He'll have to sneak in, find them asleep and slit their throats. Any and all magic devices would need to be overcome via "Disable Device". Alternatively, maiming a horse or two makes the party even easier take out. All of that heavy gear? Sorry. that horse is lame and lame horses don't carry anything. The Kobold steals their food as well. Another tactic is to poison the party's water. As the water is most likely by the horses, it is a simple enough matter to poison them and cause all sorts of issues. Even better if the party suspects one of their own.
Dolo 08-10-06, 10:17 AM	First read Art of War to get the tatics down. Two you will have to give him something because since he knows this party and has been after them for revenge, he would try to get some equipment to even it out. Hire some guys to rob them of some of that gear. Then after that you lead them into a prepared area of traps of varying kinds and degrees. Also use the high ground to best effect and minimize the times that they get a chance to see him. The prepared ambush spot has to be a wide killzone in order to do 2 things: Confuse them and have them panic. If the group stays calm and starts being focused((For example just picking a side and hitting it to get out)) the Kobold should leave immediately and come up with another plan. I almost forgot, setup dummies to have them beileve that there are more enemies around for them to fire on. Another idea would be to ambush them in a large area with dense underbrush, so that he can cut small tunnels in the underbrush that only a Kobold can use((For mobility)) and lead them into areas that have spike traps and pit traps around. The one thing you don't want to do is give him full intelligence of what the group has. If he has been watching them he will know SOME of what the group has, but not all of it. The important thing he should know is the disposition and tatics of the group and counters against them to knock them off stride. But since he is only one guy all theses plans should start from if things go wrong, how does he get out of this alive to try to kill them later. After said Kobold has the escape plan, then go to town . EDIT: I almost forgot isolation tatics work very well, nail them one by one and do it quickly. But remember you are walking a tightrope in how you pull this off, there is a fine line between this being credible and just the DM showing off. Also don't be shocked if they react and take the guy out using good tatics, common sense and/or luck; if they do give the group some props and reward them.
artman 08-10-06, 10:28 AM	This is easy to do if you can lure them into a cave system. As small creatures, the kobold can move in tunnels much smaller than the PCs can. Have the kobold focus everything into trapmaking and stealth. Huge cave complex, lots of traps, obvious entrance gets blocked after the PCs have gone in a certain distance. Make the distance far enough that the PCs don't automatically see that their exit is blocked. If you want to really mess with them, and don't mind modifying the kobold, give him the insectile template (SS). Kobugs can be really nasty. Especially when they use that climb speed to the best ability.
Krackatowa 08-10-06, 10:32 AM	And this is how a campaign dissolves into player vs. DM mentality. Can it be done? Sure. Should it be done? No. You really need to be more professional in how you approach DMing, the whole point is to have the trust of your party not to one up them. I would stop and rethink the proposition you have proposed and ask if it is really a good idea. Ahhhh doesn't every monster they encounter try and kill them. This is no different. This particular Kobold has analysed his opponents and will ambush them at the right moment. I will be very very fair. Remember it will take only one strike to kill the poor little fella and if they do this, I will end him. An example of his tactics, is to lasso one player while the others are not looking and have the long piece rope tied to a horse. The Kobold makes the horse bolt first. Then lassos the player (most likely the wizard). Once the player is lassoed the horse should tear him off his feet and in to the yonda thus there are now only 3 left. By the time that character has escaped his bonds and taken a fair wack of damage, wonders back to the party there might only be two pcs left. I think the odds are grossly against the kobold
Krackatowa 08-10-06, 10:33 AM	If you want to really mess with them, and don't mind modifying the kobold, give him the insectile template (SS). Kobugs can be really nasty. Especially when they use that climb speed to the best ability.[/QUOTE] I do not want to alter him, it will take away the challenge.
Dolo 08-10-06, 10:40 AM	Yes the odds are gainst the Kobold, but remember you want this guy to be a credible threat. Once he hits one of them he going to have to deal with the other three reacting to him. Does this guy have levels? You are going to have to give him some decent stuff or else this will be a brutal and short encounter...unless your group has the tatics of a turnip. The best way of doing this is really plan it so that he wants to survive and enjoy his victory. If that means he has to wait a bit inorder for the situation to be right, then he should wait. But also give one or two hints that someone is checking up on them to see if the group can follow up on leads that they are in danger.
JoeX 08-10-06, 10:40 AM	Does anyone think this can be done? No unless yours players are idiots or the kobold is somthing more than a regular kobold
ChaoticGood 08-10-06, 10:41 AM	The short answer is "YES!" (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801) Oh, just a regular kobold? Hmmm... No, I'm not seeing a standard 1st level Warrior kobold hurting an 8th-level party. Although, if he has been following them around, seeking revenge since they were 1st level... why wouldn't he have a few levels of his own?
Nobody_ 08-10-06, 11:14 AM	Since I feel an obligation to mention the big prple Elephant in the room (something that everybody sees, but nobody wants to mention) I give you one word: Pun Pun Couldn't resist, sorry. -Nobody
Krackatowa 08-10-06, 11:17 AM	Since I feel an obligation to mention the big prple Elephant in the room (something that everybody sees, but nobody wants to mention) I give you one word: Pun Pun Couldn't resist, sorry. -Nobody Muhahahahha
Toloran 08-10-06, 11:20 AM	If he has been planning his revenge since they were lvl 1, I don't see why he can't have a few normal traps set up ahead of time (he would have had the time to make em). But in any case, here is a good trap: Have part of the cave complex have a sharp (90 degree) turn in it. Just around the corner (in a spot where they actually have to go around to see it), have him set up a large group of scarecrow type things (basically, anything with a roughly humanoid shape). Also set up among them a bunch of loaded crossbows set up to a wire (that he can trip). Then put a couple bags of flour attached to the ceiling (also set to open on a wire). (Btw, make sure there are ALOT of these fakes). Here is what he does: The adventures are heading down the tunnel towards this turn. By this point they should be suitibly paranoid (from traps and other annoyiances). They should be angry/annoyed at whoever is doing this to them (expecially the wizard). When they get close to the corner, the kobold should set off the flour (causing the area to be flooded with a cloud that gives concealment). The party would probably have someone try and glance around the corner (or just try to go around the corner). When they do, the kobold sets off all the crossbows (at this point, the kobold makes a break for it down the tunnel in the opposite way). The group (should) back down the tunnel a bit (so they are safe from the crossbows). When this happens though, they should notice "a alot of humanoid figures down the tunnel." Lots of enemies in a small area? Probably the ones who have been making our lives hell in this cave? Nuke em! At this point there is a strong possibillity that the mage will try and cast fireball on them. Guess what happens when you set a cloud of flour on fire suddenly? EXPLOSION! The trick to this trap is to get the group really annoyed at whoever is doing this. Because then they'll nuke the next enemy they see (to vent their frustrations). Oh yeah, granted, the kobold could just set the cloud off himself, but that wouldn't be NEARLY as fun. Besides, kobolds prefer traps to just killing someone.
Krackatowa 08-10-06, 12:33 PM	If he has been planning his revenge since they were lvl 1, I don't see why he can't have a few normal traps set up ahead of time (he would have had the time to make em). But in any case, here is a good trap: Have part of the cave complex have a sharp (90 degree) turn in it. Just around the corner (in a spot where they actually have to go around to see it), have him set up a large group of scarecrow type things (basically, anything with a roughly humanoid shape). Also set up among them a bunch of loaded crossbows set up to a wire (that he can trip). Then put a couple bags of flour attached to the ceiling (also set to open on a wire). (Btw, make sure there are ALOT of these fakes). Here is what he does: The adventures are heading down the tunnel towards this turn. By this point they should be suitibly paranoid (from traps and other annoyiances). They should be angry/annoyed at whoever is doing this to them (expecially the wizard). When they get close to the corner, the kobold should set off the flour (causing the area to be flooded with a cloud that gives concealment). The party would probably have someone try and glance around the corner (or just try to go around the corner). When they do, the kobold sets off all the crossbows (at this point, the kobold makes a break for it down the tunnel in the opposite way). The group (should) back down the tunnel a bit (so they are safe from the crossbows). When this happens though, they should notice "a alot of humanoid figures down the tunnel." Lots of enemies in a small area? Probably the ones who have been making our lives hell in this cave? Nuke em! At this point there is a strong possibillity that the mage will try and cast fireball on them. Guess what happens when you set a cloud of flour on fire suddenly? EXPLOSION! The trick to this trap is to get the group really annoyed at whoever is doing this. Because then they'll nuke the next enemy they see (to vent their frustrations). Oh yeah, granted, the kobold could just set the cloud off himself, but that wouldn't be NEARLY as fun. Besides, kobolds prefer traps to just killing someone. Now that is the kind of spirit I am talking about. i would like to think with enough planning and under the right circumstances anything can beat or be beaten by something stronger or weaker. good call Toloran i might use some of that!!!!! If you do not mind
Ringmasta 08-10-06, 01:11 PM	Depends on how complex you really want to get.... You could have a 20'ish square section of floor rigged to drop when more than.... say... 600 pounds crosses it. Under the floor are a half-dozen or so greased chutes that drop the party into seperate areas. Of course, spikes at the bottom of the chutes are encouraged. Have him waiting in a side-passage 10' up one of the chutes. He opens up a small door (like, 1' square) and starts dropping snakes, scorpions, burning oil, or anything else that suits your fancy. Just make sure he runs away long before the party can work their way out of the holes. Make sure to use plenty of small passages. Make them 18" tall or so, so that the party has to belly-crawl to get through. That should get rid of any chance of using those big shiny magical weapons they're carrying. Once the party is well into the tunnel, the kobold pops open a murder-hole built into the top of the passage and starts stabbing away with a (poisoned?) short spear. Keep it up for a round or two and then run before they can respond. Also, every time a trap is sprung by the party, a gong or something similar should sound as part of the trap. That way he can monitor their progress through the caves. A smart 8th level party should still beat this kobold with no real difficulty, but it could make for a fun session while they try. :)
Toloran 08-10-06, 01:28 PM	Now that is the kind of spirit I am talking about. i would like to think with enough planning and under the right circumstances anything can beat or be beaten by something stronger or weaker. good call Toloran i might use some of that!!!!! If you do not mind Always a pleasure to help :) Another Trap: The difficult part about your problem is that all the best traps are magical in nature (which such a low level kobold would have difficulty making). However, there are good non-magical methods of doing the same things. The classic version of this trap is putting a invisible wall (or a wall of force) above a pit trap (the PCs go to jump over, hit it, and jump in). However, a kobold of that level couldn't make an invisible wall or a wall of force. Solution? A wall of glass. It doesn't even have to be all that thick. Even better: They can't will to disbelieve it as an illusionary trap (everything is real) and If they cast detect magic, they won't find anything (glass isn't magical and neither is the trap). However, if they try to jump over, they hit a (very real) glass barrier and fall into the pit. If they break the glass as they jump, then they get a rain of glass shards falling on them too :) The best way to set up this trap is to set it up as a normal hidden pit trap (ie, the PCs step on it and the pit opens up). They will (most likely) suceed on their reflex save and not fall in. So they won't suspect that it was only half of the trap :) (oh yeah, the trap should have spikes. Preferably coated with some sort of poison) Non-magical Illusions: You can't will to disbelieve an illusion that is exactly what it looks like. Have a (long) tunnel that gets gradually smaller as it goes down. If built right, it will just look like a REALLY long tunnel (only works with hewn stone, a natural cave wouldn't work). To make the illusion complete, have the kobold stand near the end of the tunnel near a door that is his size. This will make the PCs think there is a very large kobold at the end of the tunnel. When they spot him, he'll duck into the door and they'll run after him. They'll soon realize that the tunnel is way too small for them :) (a harmless trap but still fun).
Krackatowa 08-10-06, 01:42 PM	Also, every time a trap is sprung by the party, a gong or something similar should sound as part of the trap. That way he can monitor their progress through the caves. A smart 8th level party should still beat this kobold with no real difficulty, but it could make for a fun session while they try. :) Great ideas, I like the gong idea. It will also really annoy them too. But your latter point is what i am trying to capture. It was mentioned earlier by someone else that I am trying to wipe out the party. Not true i am simply giving myself an almost impossible mission ( whichi think I can do) and therefore making it a challenge for everyone. Mind you it would be fairly crap if he was running away and tripped and they killed him before he does anything.
Krackatowa 08-10-06, 01:51 PM	Another tactic i was considering is one similar to "Total Recall" the movie. Where if the kobold can separate the party down two different corridors that meet up again but the do not realise, the kobold can set this intersection with low visiblity or a fog of some sort maybe even the powder as mention above. When the two meet the kobold could use a bolt to attack one party member preferable a wizard and then duck into a tunnel and seal the door. This may provoke the wizard to cast and take out one of his own party members. hmmm....
Toloran 08-10-06, 01:58 PM	Another tactic i was considering is one similar to "Total Recall" the movie. Where if the kobold can separate the party down two different corridors that meet up again but the do not realise, the kobold can set this intersection with low visiblity or a fog of some sort maybe even the powder as mention above. When the two meet the kobold could use a bolt to attack one party member preferable a wizard and then duck into a tunnel and seal the door. This may provoke the wizard to cast and take out one of his own party members. hmmm.... In real life, that situation would work. However, in D&D there is one problem: Metagaming. In sucha case it would be hard for them NOT to metagame (ie, know they are about to fight their party members). It would be hard to DM properly but if you can it would work out great :)
orionm42 08-10-06, 02:09 PM	My answer to your initial question is a resounding NO!! If you follow the rules of the game as they were meant to be applied, there simply is no way a kobold can wipe out an 8th level party. With that said, can the DM say a kobold set a trap with a CR of 10 or above which could wipe out the party...sure (edit...see additional discussion below)! But if the party survives, they receive credit (XP and treasure) for successfully negotiating a CR 10 encounter...not for defeating a CR 1/4 kobold. The trap above given by toloran is a prime example. That trap has a very high CR because it includes items like multiple crossbows... When they do, the kobold sets off all the crossbows (at this point, the kobold makes a break for it down the tunnel in the opposite way). and a high level fire trap... Guess what happens when you set a cloud of flour on fire suddenly? EXPLOSION! As designed, this “flour trap” is simply not playing by the rules as far as trap creation is concerned. And if this device can be manipulated to fit within the rules, it is a very high CR mechanism. Remember that the CR of traps is in large part determined by the damage the device does. If you use this trap, you must take into consideration the substantial damage that the "exploding flour" will do in determining the CR. If you use this approach, you are not killing the party with a 1/4 CR kobold, you are killing the party with a series of traps that have a CR which is too high for their level. In my opinion, that is nothing to celebrate.
Krackatowa 08-10-06, 02:09 PM	In real life, that situation would work. However, in D&D there is one problem: Metagaming. In sucha case it would be hard for them NOT to metagame (ie, know they are about to fight their party members). It would be hard to DM properly but if you can it would work out great :) the way i can get that to work. Is when they get separated put them in two different rooms literally and play 1 round and then get their intentions for the next, then go to the other room and do the same. i will explain before they even get there that i will do one round at a time to make sure no one gets bored. They should, if done right, buy it. I only need to keep this going until they work it out. At which stage the kobold can unleash another trap. Do you think that will work?
The_Black_Dragon 08-10-06, 02:18 PM	I like this idea, Krackatowa. Some people point out that you seem to just want to kill your party for no reason. However, I think that you're players might have fun, even if they are killed. Think about it, 4 mid-level PCs taken down by just 1 kobold. I don't see what you're doing as an attempt to brutally get rid of your PCs. What you're trying to do is see if you can get a weak monster to use its intelligence and skills to best heroes that are much stronger than it. Good luck to you, sir.
Toloran 08-10-06, 02:19 PM	the way i can get that to work. Is when they get separated put them in two different rooms literally and play 1 round and then get their intentions for the next, then go to the other room and do the same. i will explain before they even get there that i will do one round at a time to make sure no one gets bored. They should, if done right, buy it. I only need to keep this going until they work it out. At which stage the kobold can unleash another trap. Do you think that will work? My worry is that they'll get suspisious when you do this (expecially because of all other traps you'll be doing)
Krackatowa 08-10-06, 02:27 PM	My answer to your initial question is a resounding NO!! If you follow the rules of the game as they were meant to be applied, there simply is no way a kobold can wipe out an 8th level party. With that said, can a kobold set a trap with a CR of 10 or above which could wipe out the party...sure! But if the party survives, they receive credit (XP and treasure) for successfully negotiating a CR 10 encounter...not for defeating a CR 1/4 kobold. The trap above given by toloran is a prime example. That trap has a very high CR because it includes items like multiple crossbows... and a high level fire trap... As designed, this “flour trap” is simply not playing by the rules as far as trap creation is concerned. And if this device can be manipulated to fit within the rules, it is a very high CR mechanism. Remember that the CR of traps is in large part determined by the damage the device does. If you use this trap, you must take into consideration the substantial damage that the "exploding flour" will do in determining the CR. If you use this approach, you are not killing the party with a 1/4 CR kobold, you are killing the party with a series of traps that have a CR which is too high for their level. In my opinion, that is nothing to celebrate. I see where you are coming from. i mean really, if i wanted too I can kill the PCs easily. They step on a mound and the roof colapses they are dead. No fun for anyone. I am suggesting methods that are more hands on and unconventional. Like as i mentioned above lassoing a pc and smacking a horse to a gallop with the pc attached to the rope and the rope to the saddle The kobold is not riding the horse. This way the kobold does not need to stand there and fight the wizard the horse will most likely take care of the wizard for sometime. The second idea was getting the pc to attack each other this means that the kobold is using them against themselves. these idea is more of where i am coming from. My intention is not to kill off the party. I am going to try as the kobold will but i do not think i will succeed but damn i will try and maybe just maybe takeout one or too. The fact is a kobold really wouldnt have the intelligence to carry out these tactics. I am using them for their weakness of con and attacking strength. As a symbol that to win a fight you don't need to just rely on steal and magic. I am also thinking as this little fella as the boss of their mission. Thus playing it this way i will up the exp and treasure to reward them duly
Krackatowa 08-10-06, 02:29 PM	I like this idea, Krackatowa. Some people point out that you seem to just want to kill your party for no reason. However, I think that you're players might have fun, even if they are killed. Think about it, 4 mid-level PCs taken down by just 1 kobold. I don't see what you're doing as an attempt to brutally get rid of your PCs. What you're trying to do is see if you can get a weak monster to use its intelligence and skills to best heroes that are much stronger than it. Good luck to you, sir. Spot on. Thank you Black Dragon
Krackatowa 08-10-06, 02:33 PM	My worry is that they'll get suspisious when you do this (expecially because of all other traps you'll be doing) What works in my favour is putting them in separate rooms when the party is split up is consistant with all gaming sessions in the past. They will assume i am just doing that because i always do that. i hope. Other wise the plan is cactus.
Toloran 08-10-06, 02:57 PM	My answer to your initial question is a resounding NO!! If you follow the rules of the game as they were meant to be applied, there simply is no way a kobold can wipe out an 8th level party. With that said, can a kobold set a trap with a CR of 10 or above which could wipe out the party...sure! But if the party survives, they receive credit (XP and treasure) for successfully negotiating a CR 10 encounter...not for defeating a CR 1/4 kobold. The trap above given by toloran is a prime example. That trap has a very high CR because it includes items like multiple crossbows... and a high level fire trap... As designed, this “flour trap” is simply not playing by the rules as far as trap creation is concerned. And if this device can be manipulated to fit within the rules, it is a very high CR mechanism. Remember that the CR of traps is in large part determined by the damage the device does. If you use this trap, you must take into consideration the substantial damage that the "exploding flour" will do in determining the CR. If you use this approach, you are not killing the party with a 1/4 CR kobold, you are killing the party with a series of traps that have a CR which is too high for their level. In my opinion, that is nothing to celebrate. It is NOT a high level trap. I copyed the trap almost ENTIRELY out of the premade adventure "The Burning Plague" (off of the wizards of the coast website). The original encounter was ECL 3-4 ish (half of what this party is). The major difference is the fact that instead of a bunch of kobolds repeatedly shooting the crossbows, its a simple trap that shoots a bunch once. The flour is only CR 1 (since it requires something else to set it off. There is nothing in the encounter that would directly set off the trap. the PLAYERS have to set it off). The basic version causes a cloud to fill the area. It causes a 20% miss chance in the first two rounds, and then only a 10% miss chance in the remaining two rounds (four rounds total). The only reason this is only CR 1 is because in a level 1 encounter (that it was designed for), the PCs wouldn't have anything to set it off with. At higher levels, it is expected that PCs wouldn't just shoot off a fireball into a cloud of flammable particles. The arrow traps is also only CR 1. Also, unlike the basic arrow trap, it has to be manually set off by the kobold. So with three arrows fired (only one is needed really), that is CR 3. Combined, that is stil only CR 4 (far lower then their level). Also, it requires them to 1) Do something stupid, and 2) Do it within the 4 rounds that the flour is in the air. Also, the trap (on its own) does MINIMAL damage. The arrow does 1d6 per hit (if they even hit). The flour (on its own) also does no damage. In fact, the trap has no way of setting the flour on fire on its own. So it counts as 0 damage. So maybe 3d6 damage at most? Now, as to how much damage it deals (if the flour is ignited): The standard fireball trap (CR 5, also low for the party), deals 8d6 damage. So in the first two rounds the flour is in the air, it would deal 8d6 damage (reflex half). In the second two, it would deal 4d6 (reflex half). Any round after that it does 0. Also (unlike the standard fireball trap) it doesn't automatically reset. So that should lower the CR as well. So after taking EVERYTHING into account, the trap is CR 7-9 (which is EXACTLY right for a group of that level).
orionm42 08-10-06, 03:04 PM	I am suggesting methods that are more hands on and unconventional. Like as i mentioned above lassoing a pc and smacking a horse to a gallop with the pc attached to the rope and the rope to the saddle The kobold is not riding the horse. This way the kobold does not need to stand there and fight the wizard the horse will most likely take care of the wizard for sometime. Even with something like this, I strongly encourage you to follow the rules (or the rules as you interpret them). For example, in my opinion, lassoing a moving PC would require a high DC use rope check. In light of the DC's in the PHB, I would say the DC for roping a character would be at least 20. As a standard kobold has no ranks in use rope and only a +1 Dex modifier, his chances of succeeding are minimal. And even if he does, the opposing character is entitled to an escape artist or possibly a strength check to resist or break free. While you may assign a different DC to the attempt, you should use the rules as written to determine the outcomes of the kobold's attacks. Also, getting back to the trapmaking thing for a moment, remember the kobold would need to succeed on a craft (trapmaking) check to craft a mechanical trap or he would need the ability to cast spells if he was to build a magical trap. Again, with a +2 on his craft skill and no casting ability, a standard kobold is very limited in the traps he can make. Good luck with the encounter! :) PS. Toloran…I just saw your reply and will respond shortly.
Krackatowa 08-10-06, 03:09 PM	It is NOT a high level trap. I copyed the trap almost ENTIRELY out of the premade adventure "The Burning Plague" (off of the wizards of the coast website). The original encounter was ECL 3-4 ish (half of what this party is). The major difference is the fact that instead of a bunch of kobolds repeatedly shooting the crossbows, its a simple trap that shoots a bunch once. The flour is only CR 1 (since it requires something else to set it off. There is nothing in the encounter that would directly set off the trap. the PLAYERS have to set it off). The basic version causes a cloud to fill the area. It causes a 20% miss chance in the first two rounds, and then only a 10% miss chance in the remaining two rounds (four rounds total). The only reason this is only CR 1 is because in a level 1 encounter (that it was designed for), the PCs wouldn't have anything to set it off with. At higher levels, it is expected that PCs wouldn't just shoot off a fireball into a cloud of flammable particles. The arrow traps is also only CR 1. Also, unlike the basic arrow trap, it has to be manually set off by the kobold. So with three arrows fired (only one is needed really), that is CR 3. Combined, that is stil only CR 4 (far lower then their level). Also, it requires them to 1) Do something stupid, and 2) Do it within the 4 rounds that the flour is in the air. Also, the trap (on its own) does MINIMAL damage. The arrow does 1d6 per hit (if they even hit). The flour (on its own) also does no damage. In fact, the trap has no way of setting the flour on fire on its own. So it counts as 0 damage. So maybe 3d6 damage at most? Now, as to how much damage it deals (if the flour is ignited): The standard fireball trap (CR 5, also low for the party), deals 8d6 damage. So in the first two rounds the flour is in the air, it would deal 8d6 damage (reflex half). In the second two, it would deal 4d6 (reflex half). Any round after that it does 0. Also (unlike the standard fireball trap) it doesn't automatically reset. So that should lower the CR as well. So after taking EVERYTHING into account, the trap is CR 7-9 (which is EXACTLY right for a group of that level). GO Toloran!!!! The kobold will have you on its side anyday.
Krackatowa 08-10-06, 03:20 PM	For example, in my opinion, lassoing a moving PC would require a high DC use rope check. In light of the DC's in the PHB, I would say the DC for roping a character would be at least 20. As a standard kobold has no ranks in use rope and only a +1 Dex modifier, his chances of succeeding are minimal. And even if he does, the opposing character is entitled to an escape artist or possibly a strength check to resist or break free. Fair call. I intend to stick to the rules as much as possible and only bend them with notions similar to the fact the Kobold is smart enough to come up with any of this. If the kobold was hiding in some bushes concealed along with a horse and sets up a simple rope trap the same used for catching small animals. That when a pc stands on something it triggers the rope to tighten around the pc's ankle. Thus all the kobold has to do in his round is hold until a pc steps where he/she shouldn't and then set a burning torch or short sword on to the horse's bottox and see if it moves. Presto good night wizard. Have not worked out how to calculate damage for being dragged by a galloping horse. nasty i think
orionm42 08-10-06, 03:26 PM	It is NOT a high level trap. I copyed the trap almost ENTIRELY out of the premade adventure "The Burning Plague" (off of the wizards of the coast website). The original encounter was ECL 3-4 ish (half of what this party is). The major difference is the fact that instead of a bunch of kobolds repeatedly shooting the crossbows, its a simple trap that shoots a bunch once. That "major" difference is just that...major. It substantially increases the average damage value of the trap and therefore increases the CR of it. Per the rules, the CR for mechanical traps increases by 1 for each 7 points average damage the trap does. Table: CR Modifiers for Mechanical Traps Damage/Effect Average damage +1/7 points* Now, as to how much damage it deals (if the flour is ignited): The standard fireball trap (CR 5, also low for the party), deals 8d6 damage. So in the first two rounds the flour is in the air, it would deal 8d6 damage (reflex half). In the second two, it would deal 4d6 (reflex half). Any round after that it does 0. Also (unlike the standard fireball trap) it doesn't automatically reset. So that should lower the CR as well. So after taking EVERYTHING into account, the trap is CR 7-9 (which is EXACTLY right for a group of that level). My point above still stands. Can you subject the PCs to a CR7-9 trap and say it was made by a kobold? Sure. But the fact of the matter is that a standard kobold cannot make the trap you describe because... Craft DCs for Mechanical Traps Once you know the Challenge Rating of a trap determine the Craft (trapmaking) DC by referring to the table and the modifiers given below. Trap CR Base Craft (Trapmaking) DC 1–3................20 4–6................25 7–10..............30 A standard kobold has a +2 on is craft (trapmaking) skill. He cannot ever roll high enough to create a CR 7 to CR 9 trap because the trapmaking DC is 30. I don't have a problem challenging the party with traps appropriate for their level, which (assuming you determined the CR correctly) your trap is. I have a problem with saying a standard kobold created it. Said kobold simply cannot.
Always-Late 08-10-06, 03:57 PM	What the hell's the kobold been doing for the past eight levels? Give him four levels of expert. He's been off adventuring or something in his quest to get something to kill said PC's and been hiring himself out to craft traps for people. He has +3 int, +8 ranks, +3 skill focus, and +2 racial. That's one nasty +16 Craft: Trapmaking check. And, trap. Cave with a sturdy wooden door. Two feet in front is another sturdy wooden door. Two feet in front is another sturdy wooden door. (I'd say steel door, but that's expensive, and I'm sure three wooden doors would do fine.) Floor is covered in caltrops affixed to the floor and covered in slippery burlap, hay, or straw. Along the walls are a series of holes. Examination of these holes will find that they lead into nothing. At the end of the entrance hall is a sturdy wooden door with a poisoned handle and a pit trap on the other side, so that charging through the door will result in falling into a pit. Now, what the holes really are: A network of stone channels that can carry fluid, like pipes. Somewhere above them, there is a big rusty copper basin with several holes in the bottom, so that fluid placed in the basin will slowly drain into the hall. The following should happen while the PCs are hacking down the second door and negotiating the pit: His handy assistant starts pouring oil into the basin. The PC's should make listen checks to hear rushing fluids, and spot checks to notice liquid dripping out of the pipes. These should get progressively easier as more of it happens. Simultaneously, the kobold himself closes the first door and bars it with an iron bar. He then closes the second door and bars it with two iron bars. The then closes the third door and bars it with three iron bars. The assistant then drops a torch into the basin, igniting all the oil down into the channels into the room setting the burlap/straw/hay on fire, dealing a lethally nasty 1d6 damage per round to people in the hall. The PCs still have to negotiate with the caltrops in the ground and bash through three doors before getting out. The marvels of engineering. Oh, a cookie for anyone who can divine the inspiration for this trap (of course, modified for much fewer kobolds.) Here's the actual passage in question: It didn't work. The kobolds caught us about 60' into the dungeon and locked the door behind us and barred it. Then they set the corridor on fire, while we were still in it. "NOOOOOO!!!" screamed the party leader. "It's THEM! Run!!!"
Toloran 08-10-06, 04:06 PM	That "major" difference is just that...major. It substantially increases the average damage value of the trap and therefore increases the CR of it. Per the rules, the CR for mechanical traps increases by 1 for each 7 points average damage the trap does. My point above still stands. Can you subject the PCs to a CR7-9 trap and say it was made by a kobold? Sure. But the fact of the matter is that a standard kobold cannot make the trap you describe because... A standard kobold has a +2 on is craft (trapmaking) skill. He cannot ever roll high enough to create a CR 7 to CR 9 trap because the trapmaking DC is 30. I don't have a problem challenging the party with traps appropriate for their level, which (assuming you determined the CR correctly) your trap is. I have a problem with saying a standard kobold created it. Said kobold simply cannot. I used crossbows as an example but really it is just the standard arrow trap, hence the arrows are only CR 1 (not higher). And again, you only need one for the plan to work but more just make it more convincing. Also, the trap is a series of small traps, not one big one. Because of that, it is MUCH easier to craft (since the pieces are all CR 1 traps). When I said the CR was 7-9 earlier, what I really meant was the encounter level was 7-9, not the traps CR. In addition, you can't even count the fire damage as part of the trap since it is an inherent quality of the flour (in the same way you don't count the damage a quarterstaff deals in the off chance you set it on fire).
dunehunter 08-10-06, 04:15 PM	Let's look at the logic...it's not because something has a potential of doing a lot of damage, that it would be harder to make. I mean, setting up crossbows, hanging up flour...not that hard I think And a good idea, but try to make sure that they have a chance to survive, preferably without killing the kobold :p could be a great recurring character ;)
orionm42 08-10-06, 04:25 PM	What the hell's the kobold been doing for the past eight levels? Give him four levels of expert. He's been off adventuring or something in his quest to get something to kill said PC's and been hiring himself out to craft traps for people. The OP said this... I do not want to alter him, it will take away the challenge. I assume that means he wants to try to do this with a kobold with 1HD.
orionm42 08-10-06, 04:38 PM	Of course...I just realized the party does not have a rogue. If you are going to attack this party with a series of traps, the traps should have a pretty low CR if you want or expect the PCs to survive.
terrainmonkey 08-10-06, 04:38 PM	What the hell's the kobold been doing for the past eight levels? Give him four levels of expert. He's been off adventuring or something in his quest to get something to kill said PC's and been hiring himself out to craft traps for people. He has +3 int, +8 ranks, +3 skill focus, and +2 racial. That's one nasty +16 Craft: Trapmaking check. And, trap. Cave with a sturdy wooden door. Two feet in front is another sturdy wooden door. Two feet in front is another sturdy wooden door. (I'd say steel door, but that's expensive, and I'm sure three wooden doors would do fine.) Floor is covered in caltrops affixed to the floor and covered in slippery burlap, hay, or straw. Along the walls are a series of holes. Examination of these holes will find that they lead into nothing. At the end of the entrance hall is a sturdy wooden door with a poisoned handle and a pit trap on the other side, so that charging through the door will result in falling into a pit. Now, what the holes really are: A network of stone channels that can carry fluid, like pipes. Somewhere above them, there is a big rusty copper basin with several holes in the bottom, so that fluid placed in the basin will slowly drain into the hall. The following should happen while the PCs are hacking down the second door and negotiating the pit: His handy assistant starts pouring oil into the basin. The PC's should make listen checks to hear rushing fluids, and spot checks to notice liquid dripping out of the pipes. These should get progressively easier as more of it happens. Simultaneously, the kobold himself closes the first door and bars it with an iron bar. He then closes the second door and bars it with two iron bars. The then closes the third door and bars it with three iron bars. The assistant then drops a torch into the basin, igniting all the oil down into the channels into the room setting the burlap/straw/hay on fire, dealing a lethally nasty 1d6 damage per round to people in the hall. The PCs still have to negotiate with the caltrops in the ground and bash through three doors before getting out. The marvels of engineering. Oh, a cookie for anyone who can divine the inspiration for this trap (of course, modified for much fewer kobolds.) Here's the actual passage in question: Quote: It didn't work. The kobolds caught us about 60' into the dungeon and locked the door behind us and barred it. Then they set the corridor on fire, while we were still in it. "NOOOOOO!!!" screamed the party leader. "It's THEM! Run!!!" tucker's kobolds anyone? okay, first off, this kobold has bene shadowing the party for 8 levels. he's got a few levels himself, even if he's got warrior levels. second, the rules don't really have to be used here, it's the story that counts. rule 0 can change anything. he's the DM, he can do whatever he wants to challenge the party. If i were a player in this game, i would have fun. it would be a challenge, but i would never question the DM in this case because i had fun. now, on to syaing that the OP is intentionally trying to kill the PCs, no. he's not. he's trying to come up with a challenging game that is fun for all, including himself. this is fair and right, and within the rules. DM vs. Party is sometimes a fun type of game to play. try it sometime. it's the kind of game a lot of us old timers grew up on. one could learn a thing or two about this type of session. how about fire ants? lots and lots of fire ants, swarms do automatic damage, and lots of them in a 5 foot corridor would be fun. and putting pitch or oil on the walls of this corridor set to start burning if anyone let off any kind of flaming sphere, fireball, lightning bolt, etc. to get rid of the ant swarms. poison snakes in holes in the ceilings, let out when the players get to a certain area. bungee pits, with con draining poison, or rust monster ichor that rusts armored boots. carrion crawler ichor dropped on the party for a paralysis trap then fire. the possibilities are endless. hit'em hard, strong, and sneaky. and if you kill all the PCs, too bad, they should have thought thier way out of it better. go to, man. good luck. i'm behind you all the way.
Kadasbrass 08-10-06, 06:51 PM	Pun-Pun aside, superior tactics beat superior numbers. You could use a design similar to the Return to Undermountain (Room 5) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ru/20050511a) with a single kobold. You could in theory have a single kobold behind a table throw alot of spash weapons at the group stuck between two portcullises. Just gotta make sure that the group has used up any area effect spells ahead of him, and the kobold would have cover bonuses to AC due to table. He could in theory throw the weapon without even looking ahead of time granting him total cover.
tiercel 08-10-06, 09:16 PM	You'll have to think carefully about what traps the kobold will set up to try to kill the PCs. If you are going to be playing fair, you have to decide how much wealth a single kobold has, and how much time he had to set up the traps, and how high his skill rank in Craft(Trapmaking) actually is. There are, after all, rules in the DMG for how costly and time-consuming it is to construct a given trap. If you are going to give the kobold an effective allowance of many thousands of gold pieces and years of sitting in a dark cave carefully constructing traps (never mind following the PCs around all that time) as well as an effective +25 modifier for Craft (Trapmaking), then he's not really a "regular kobold" at all. A high-level expert/Exemplar kobold, or a kobold who had organized an entire pack of the little suckers together (some of which are significantly higher than first level) might be able to pull it off, but it's kind of hard to justify a single normal by-the-book CR 1/4 kobold with his +2 in Craft (Trapmaking) and 75gp in treasure putting together multiple CR 8+ traps to permanently incapacitate / wipe out the party.
Krackatowa 08-11-06, 01:13 AM	My answer to your initial question is a resounding NO!! If you follow the rules of the game as they were meant to be applied, there simply is no way a kobold can wipe out an 8th level party. So is your stance on this syubject Orionm42 still a resounding no! Could you not pull this off with a highly intelligenced normal kobold, with all the time in the world? I am sure you could come up with a plan. Caesar took on the whole Roman empire. As far as I see it the kobold could set up a whole lair full of traps. Then send a letter to the pc that fallen friend is still alive and at said location or something. I truely believe any enemy can kill any oppponent with the right smarts not strength. Agreed?
trefrog66 08-11-06, 01:16 AM	Watch Crocodile Dundee II and check out some of the stuff he does to those drug runners. Now thats how you wipe out a party.
Krackatowa 08-11-06, 01:29 AM	Watch Crocodile Dundee II and check out some of the stuff he does to those drug runners. Now thats how you wipe out a party. WAs that because I am from Australia or just coincidence
WagnerSika 08-11-06, 05:34 AM	That "major" difference is just that...major. It substantially increases the average damage value of the trap and therefore increases the CR of it. Per the rules, the CR for mechanical traps increases by 1 for each 7 points average damage the trap does. This makes a funny situation, in which a first level kobold can easily make a trap that dumps the enemy in to a chasm from a bridge, as long as the chasm is only around 30 feet deep. But if he tries to build exactly the same trap over a 200 feet deep chasm he simply cannot do it. Guess he has vertigo or something. Or is the falling damage not factored in the calculation of trap CR?
Krackatowa 08-11-06, 06:56 AM	This makes a funny situation, in which a first level kobold can easily make a trap that dumps the enemy in to a chasm from a bridge, as long as the chasm is only around 30 feet deep. But if he tries to build exactly the same trap over a 200 feet deep chasm he simply cannot do it. Guess he has vertigo or something. Or is the falling damage not factored in the calculation of trap CR? I concur. Is it the trap mechanics or the damage delt or how hard it is to recognise.
orionm42 08-11-06, 11:13 AM	This makes a funny situation, in which a first level kobold can easily make a trap that dumps the enemy in to a chasm from a bridge, as long as the chasm is only around 30 feet deep. But if he tries to build exactly the same trap over a 200 feet deep chasm he simply cannot do it. Guess he has vertigo or something. Or is the falling damage not factored in the calculation of trap CR? The falling damage is factored into the CR. For example, a trap which is 200 feet deep deals an average of 70 points of falling damage (20d6 = 3.5*20=70). Given the rule above for calculating the CR of mechanical traps, you have a starting CR of 10. Now…let’s say we are dealing with a rope bridge and the mechanism for activating the trap is that one of the rope bridge supports is partially severed. When a party of four adventurers steps onto the bridge, the extra weight causes the support line to snap and the entire left side of the bridge tilts, “dumping the party into the chasm.” By definition, this trap would hit multiple targets. This adds +1 to the CR, bringing it to 11. I concur. Is it the trap mechanics or the damage delt or how hard it is to recognise. All of the above. In order to make this conceptual trap fair for an eighth level party, you would likely need to bring the DC to notice the frayed rope (i.e. the search DC) to 15 or lower. This reduces the CR by 1. You would also need to make the disable device DC (for example, bypassing the trap by reinforcing the bridge support with another piece of rope) 15 or lower (further reduces the CR by 1). Finally, you need to allow a reflex save of 15 or lower to grab onto the non-severed bridge support rope to avoid falling into the chasm (again reduces the CR by 1). These design modifications result in a trap with a net CR of 8. Now for a couple of questions. First, is this really a CR8 trap? In my opinion, the answer is no. By focusing so much on the damage dealt, you have made the trap extremely easy to avoid. In fact, if you allow a player to take 20 when searching for traps (which, by the way, I do not…but that is another issue entirely), any character can detect this trap and avoid it. Second, could a kobold craft such a trap? Well, it seems easy enough to partially cut through a piece of rope. Anyone can do that, can’t they? Again, if you follow the rules in the DMG for the craft (trapmaking) skill, the answer is no. Why? Don’t ask me! Perhaps the kobold has misjudged the weight of the bridge and, when he tries to cut through the rope, he cuts too much and the bridge collapses in the process of setting the trap. Or perhaps the kobold is not as smart as he thinks he is and he decides he will try to sever the rope in the middle of the bridge (as opposed to at one end) in order to make the sabotage more difficult to spot. This time, his own weight causes the rope to snap and he falls victim to his own device. Or perhaps he manages to partially sever the rope in the morning, but throughout the day, the weight of the bridge weakens the frayed rope and it snaps again. Or perhaps he does manage to partially cut through the rope and not set the trap off, but even the weakened bridge can still support the weight of all four party members and they pass over the bridge without setting it off. In any event, even though it seems perfectly logical a kobold can cut through a piece of rope and set such a trap, he cannot successfully do it if you follow the rules in the DMG. Krakatowa…I’ll respond to your post number 40 in a separate post.
illiterate 08-11-06, 12:32 PM	kobolds have the same average intelligence as humans, IIRC. i don't think a plain-old cr1 kobold should be used for this. give him a few levels to reflect the time he's spent chasing them (having his own adventures along the way), and kick his craft skill up for trapmaking
Krackatowa 08-11-06, 12:48 PM	Krakatowa…I’ll respond to your post number 40 in a separate post. I await your response. You seem like you have the knowledge and the know how to pull this off. However it seems you have the stubborness not to try! Am I wrong? are you English? Can you not see the challenge? Tell me please
Krackatowa 08-11-06, 12:50 PM	kobolds have the same average intelligence as humans, IIRC. i don't think a plain-old cr1 kobold should be used for this. give him a few levels to reflect the time he's spent chasing them (having his own adventures along the way), and kick his craft skill up for trapmaking You maybe right maybe the loop hole is this situation is the kobolds lack of well int and trapmaking craft. However if that is all that is lacking well then I still think it is a challenge.I am prepared to fail but refuse to fail by not being prepared. over and out
orionm42 08-11-06, 06:26 PM	So is your stance on this syubject Orionm42 still a resounding no! Could you not pull this off with a highly intelligenced normal kobold, with all the time in the world? I am sure you could come up with a plan. Caesar took on the whole Roman empire. As far as I see it the kobold could set up a whole lair full of traps. Then send a letter to the pc that fallen friend is still alive and at said location or something. I truely believe any enemy can kill any oppponent with the right smarts not strength. Agreed? To preface, a "highly intelligent" and normal kobold is somewhat of an oxymoron. But, if my objective is to kill your particular party of four characters with a 1HD intelligent kobold, here is how I would do it within the rules ( I hope :)). First, my 1HD kobold antagonist would have been created using the elite array. If you assign a score of 15 to his intelligence stat and give him four ranks in craft (trap making), his craft trap making modifier is +8 (including the +2 racial adjustment). This would technically enable him to craft a mechanical trap with a maximum CR of 6. It should be noted, however, that our trap will have a CR of 3, meaning a standard kobold could technically make it. Next, and as discussed above, the obvious route to attack this party is through a trap because the party is weak in this area without a rogue. As no member of the party has “search” as a class skill, they will have great difficulty finding traps that have modestly high search DCs. So we need to build a trap with a slightly higher than average search DC and hope the party does not take 20 to search the room. And even if they do take 20, we have to hope they don’t find the trap. More on this later. The most deadly trap I am aware of that can be created with a relatively low CR is a water filled room trap. We will go with a 20X10 foot room and, with any luck, you will drown all four party members in one fell swoop. The problem with deadly liquid traps is the liquid adds +5 to the CR and the never miss option adds to the cost, so we need some other features that will bring both the CR and the cost of the trap down. Note that I am trying to work within a budget of around 4,000gp. This is based on an average treasure value per encounter for an 8th level party of 3,400gp. I think it would be reasonable to give the kobold 4,000gp to construct the trap in light of this guideline. So here it is… Water-Filled Room Trap: CR 3; mechanical; location trigger; no reset; multiple targets (all targets in a 20-ft.-by-10-ft. room); never miss; onset delay (4 rounds); liquid; Search DC 24; Disable Device DC 10. Market Price: 3,900gp. See the proof of the cost and the CR below. Note that this trap has no reset. So you get one shot and one shot only. Also, it has a location trigger. That means the players must step in the right square to activate the mechanism. Additionally, the trap has a 4 round onset delay. That means the room does not begin to fill with water until four rounds after the trap has been triggered. You will have to get creative for the characters to fall victim to this trap. I do not know your players, so I don’t know how best to fool them into activating the trap and waiting around for the trap to go off. But with my players, here is how I would do it…The water room would be one room in a series of rooms in a dungeon. Note that there would not be a door on the room and it would appear to be a dining area or some other plainly decorated “functional” room (e.g. dining area, kitchen, storage area, etc.). I would not make the room the “sleeping quarters” of the kobold, nor would I make it the last room of the dungeon. Having the room be just another common area would hopefully make the players relax slightly when entering the room. If, on the other hand, it were the kobold’s “main lair”…they may search for traps immediately, which we don’t want. Now the shape of the room is important here. It should be at least 20 feet long and 10 feet wide. On the wall opposite the door (20 feet away), I would have a shelf of some kind with a small chest on it. I would expect the players to walk to the shelf and, considering it is a run of the mill room, I would hope they would not search the room before reaching the chest. Now, I would place the location trigger (pressure plate) immediately inside the door. They would need to pass over the pressure plate to get to the chest. Once standing by the chest, I would expect them to search for traps. However, even if the party's cleric casts find traps by the chest, the player would be out of range to also notice the pressure plate which was activated when they entered the room. This is why the length of the room is important…because, by rule, you must be within 10 feet of a trap to notice it with a search check. Once the party searched the chest, I would indicate it was not trapped. Additionally, I would have given the players a key earlier in the dungeon which would open the chest without a problem. The chest would contain a good amount of unidentified treasure and some form of long note from the antagonist kobold. The idea is to get the players to remain in the room throughout the four round onset delay of the trap. I would assume the time spent reading the note and identifying their treasure would be sufficient to allow the four rounds to pass. And then….. I would brace myself for the screaming, yelling, and cries of railroading as they gasped their last breath…right before drowning! :rant: All in all, the trap is “technically” fair and appropriate for the party. Although they will probably scream about why there was a water filled room trap placed in such an innocuous area. That would be a legitimate gripe…your only defense is that the chest did contain a substantial reward and a note from the antagonist (possibly revealing his long term plans). They'll also likely complain about the high search DC. But again, the players could have found it if they had searched in the right place at the right time. Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide. I hope, whatever course of action you take, its fun for you and your players. :) Note the CR of the trap is calculated as follows: Base CR for a mechanical trap = 0 Search DC of 24 = +0 Disable device DC of 10 = -1 Liquid miscellaneous feature = +5 Onset delay 4+ rounds = -1 Multiple targets (with never miss) = 0 Total trap CR = 3 The cost of the trap is calculated as follows: Base cost = 1,000gp No reset = -500gp Search DC of 24 = +800gp Disable Device DC of 10 = =-1,000 Never miss = +1,000gp Total base cost = 1,300 X CR of the trap of 3 =3,900gp total cost I am at work, so I did not have a whole lot of time to verify the cost and CR. If someone spots an error, please let me know.
Drausktanchache 08-11-06, 06:30 PM	I am going to refer you to a more surefire way....in your other post it is my idea of THE DEN OF TIAMAT, believe me there is nothing better than to see a party fight a GOD as if it were a hydra!!! *cackles insanely*
Morrowner 08-11-06, 07:00 PM	4th level Warrior/6th level Rogue, take Craven and twink out sneak attack to the roof. 17,000 GP is plenty of money to pimp him out, too. Traps galore, hit and run, go for the arcane caster to suck up healing resources, use the terrain, and try and exploit the darkvision. Good luck.
IceFractal 08-11-06, 08:00 PM	Making a bridge trap is quite simple. Step 1) Find a 200' deep chasm. Step 2) Build a bridge 10' down the chasm (not a trapped one), this should cost the normal bridge price. Step 3) Build a trapped bridge directly over the other bridge, so that anyone falling from the trap will land on the lower bridge. Your trap only does 1d6 damage, so it should be pretty easy to build. Step 4) Destroy the lower bridge. You can do this for free. There, you've build a top-quality trap for bargain basement prices. ;)
Krackatowa 08-13-06, 09:54 AM	Hmmm there are some good suggestions and some i have used. I will deliver the Kobold fight at our game tomorrow night and will post the rresult on Tuesday night. I fanyone has anymore ideas I am keen. i would like to keep th ekobold as close to being a kobold as possible but maybe with superior intelligence than most kobolds.
BrotherMarcus 08-13-06, 11:07 AM	Yes, if you are setting up traps that are beyond the reach of a normal kobold. You are going to lose the respect of your players if you do this. These kind of situations the Players really need to see a certain amount of fairness on your part to believe they were defeated by a kobold. It sounds like you already decided to make traps and such that they cannot possibly overcome. Any DM can do that with any PC. In this case it is not the Kobold that is killing the party it is the DM.
Benicus 08-13-06, 11:22 AM	Two words: Pun-Pun, Omnipotence at level 5 :)
Krackatowa 08-13-06, 12:55 PM	yes Pun-pun but would he be a match for this kobold I wonder. After all this build up he willmost likely be killed by a stray arrow in the first round.
Ringmasta 08-17-06, 10:07 AM	Krackatowa - How did the session go?
kliate 08-17-06, 10:28 AM	It doesn't have to be complicated at all. -A note to the PCs, requesting their presence in a particularly dry field. -A pit trap in the field, with another note on top of it. -Net traps around the pit trap, set to go off only after the pit trap is triggered -Line the walls and floor with quick-burining oils (assuming you have flammable oil or its equivalent) -A few vials of alchemists fire on a delicate balancing aparatus on the bottom. -*Fwoosh!*
Gamandria 08-17-06, 11:30 AM	Setting your PCs up to be eliminated is unfair, against the spirit of the game and will earn their distrust.
Dauthi_King 08-17-06, 11:51 AM	My answer to your initial question is a resounding NO!! If you follow the rules of the game as they were meant to be applied, there simply is no way a kobold can wipe out an 8th level party. With that said, can the DM say a kobold set a trap with a CR of 10 or above which could wipe out the party...sure (edit...see additional discussion below)! But if the party survives, they receive credit (XP and treasure) for successfully negotiating a CR 10 encounter...not for defeating a CR 1/4 kobold. The trap above given by toloran is a prime example. That trap has a very high CR because it includes items like multiple crossbows... and a high level fire trap... As designed, this “flour trap” is simply not playing by the rules as far as trap creation is concerned. And if this device can be manipulated to fit within the rules, it is a very high CR mechanism. Remember that the CR of traps is in large part determined by the damage the device does. If you use this trap, you must take into consideration the substantial damage that the "exploding flour" will do in determining the CR. If you use this approach, you are not killing the party with a 1/4 CR kobold, you are killing the party with a series of traps that have a CR which is too high for their level. In my opinion, that is nothing to celebrate. I did not bother to read the second page of post so I’m sorry if this has already been said. Anyway, I agree that if you use high level CR traps that its more like the party is fighting against a dungeon of traps rather then the low level kobold you want them to face. What you should do is give him ranks in craft (trap making) and use the rules for designing traps (I think it’s in the DM’s guide). Then roll to see how well he made the traps. Otherwise it would seem as a master trap maker is killing your PC rather then a level 1 kobold.