+1 LA for a Hobgoblin!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

+1 LA for a Hobgoblin!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
James18
10-05-07, 01:56 AM Well our DM recently let us play a monstrous campaign. :) We came to the table with some lofty creations. A half-iron, a half-dragon, a half-fiend, and a gith. This went down quicker then a halfling in a bar fight:surrender.

Our Dm decided that no LE creatures were allowed and had us make due with that.

We came back with a CE barbarian/fighter Orc, a pyro NE Kobald sorcerer, a LN nature-monk who thinks he is a minotaur, and me :fight!: a LE exiled Ranger/Fighter Hobgoblin.

We each have our own reasons and goals for joining, mine as the leader of the group is to raise my fellow party members level to where they can rule over their fellow tribes and then I will have gained 3 leutenents in my new army that spans 4 different races. :plotting: All seems well and good.

But wait! The hobgoblin is a +1LE. Yeah I know wth. :confused:

They get

+2 Dex and +2 Con

Darkvision 60 ft

Standard movement of 30th

+4 Move Silently

Favored class: Fighter

:bow: Wow yeah such a power house. You really need to rein in that one.

I compared that to the two most compairable non LA core races and have the dwarf and half-orc. Both of these races get darkvision, which I concede is a huge benefit.
The dwarf doesn't get the dex bonus and has slightly lower speed (unless we both are in heavy armor) but also gets a slew of other bonuses and a one handed weapon that deals 1d10 that other races need a feat to learn.
The half-orc gets +2 Str, another huge benifit, and -2 Int and -2 Cha (but who cares about Cha anyway)

I just don't see this +1 la as justified, I have looked at what other +1le races get, planetouched, and its more then non balanced stat bonuses. My DM agrees and we don't give the +1 la for the hobgoblins.

We put it through the wash test of a level 2 Dwarf Fighter vs a level 1 Hobgoblin Fighter or a level 2 Barbarian vs a level 1 Hobgoblin figher and it just doesn't pan out.

My question is do you think that Hobgoblins are worth a +1 la, and what other races do you think are under or over valued on the la department.

I almost want to give Kobalds a -1 la.

Now if you will excuse me I need to draw up battle plans for our attack on the nearby village. I think we have finally taught our sorcerer to burn people, stop, put out fire, loot, burn corpse. Its a time consuming process but we have had some practice on halfling bards we have captured. They are a dime a dozen and nobody cares if they go missing. :)
wizarddog
10-05-07, 02:08 AM Consider that you just got a +2 DX and a +2 CN without any deductions is why it is +1 LA. You could start with a 20 DX and a 20 CN at 1st level. And without a deduction, the character could be better at certain classes the Halforc and the Dwarf would not like sorcerer, Bard, or Rogue. (and by the way, that Dwarven war axe is treated as a martial weapon-so the dwarf has to have martial weapon prof to use it.)

A Kolbold does get a 30 base landspeed even while being small and the favored class is sorcerer AND a +1 natural Armorclass. That's not bad for a +0.
;)
Ddraiglais
10-05-07, 02:15 AM I agree. If you had lost something in other abilities, even if it was cha; then it wouldn't have the LA.
JulesCARV
10-05-07, 02:18 AM I've heard there's some obscure third-party sourced racial, first-level only hobgoblin feat that reduces LA from +1 to +0.

Maybe you could ask your DM if you could exchange your level 1 feat for no level adjustment.
RobbyPants
10-05-07, 10:31 AM There was another similar thread a while back. I eventually posted one version of a LA +0 hobgoblin that got fairly good feedback.

Original version modified: (old, new)

+2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution., -2 Wisdom.
A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Toughness as a bonus feat.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
+2 racial bonus on Profession (Siege Engineering).
+2 racial bonus on Knowledge (History).
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against elves
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc.
Favored Class: Fighter.
Level adjustment +1. +0.

The basic idea was to "balance" the ability scores out. I put in -2 Wisdom to represent their arrogance and over-confidence. I under no circumstances wanted to impose a -2 Int or Cha, so this naturally only left me with Wis. I removed the +2 Con and gave Toughness instead. This is a weaker option that still preserves the flavor (the idea came from Return_Of_The_Flumph). The +1 to hit against elves just make sense (they hate them). The +2 Profession (Siege Engineering) will probably never see any game play 95% of the time, but it's there for flavor. The +2 Knowledge (History) is there to represnt a knowledge of warfare (I think I remember seeing History used in one or two books for military purposes).

So the final version looks something like:

+2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom.
A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Toughness as a bonus feat.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
+2 racial bonus on Profession (Siege Engineering).
+2 racial bonus on Knowledge (History).
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against elves
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc.
Favored Class: Fighter.
Level adjustment +0.

It still (I feel) preserves all the flavor of a hobgoblin, while actually adding some. I felt the original MM hobgoblin was more of a LA +0.25ish character. It just got rounded up to be on the safe side. I figured a relatively small amount of tweaking would bring them down to a solid LA +0, and I think this does so nicely.
Senevri
10-05-07, 10:56 AM I like that hobby mod.
To the OP:
Consider this: +2 dex is +1 AC, +1 REF, possibly a +1 ATK, and +1 to most of the often-used skills.
Similarily, +2 con is actually +1 fort, +1HP/level, +1 concentration and so on.

Not to mention what they do with feats which have a minimum stat prereq.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
10-05-07, 11:00 AM There have been at least five Hobgoblin characters in my gaming group. None of them had any LA. Didn't break the game but was a lot of fun. So, they don't really need the LA. They are very good without it, like Dwarves and worthless with it.
Ecalsneerg
10-05-07, 11:02 AM I a group like that, it's unlikely to need an LA.

But your DM band Le, but allows CE? Odd.
ohyeahsweet
10-05-07, 11:02 AM RobbyPants---->your revised Hob is excellent, I hope you don't mind if I steal it.
RobbyPants
10-05-07, 02:42 PM I like that hobby mod.RobbyPants---->your revised Hob is excellent, I hope you don't mind if I steal it.
Thanks and thanks :D

In all fairness, I can't claim the entire idea. As mentioned, Return_Of_The_Flumph was the one who originally came up with the idea of dropping the +2 Con and swapping with Toughness. He may have had the idea to put in the -2 Wis too (I know he at least supported the choice). As for the two skill boosts and attack against elves, I just figured it was an easy way to make them more flavorful, so they felt like a typical PHB race.

Feel free to use it. So far as I know, Return_Of_The_Flumph is using them too.
StevenO
10-05-07, 02:50 PM My solution to ignoring the Hobgoblin's +1 LA is to give it -4 BP when creating initial ability scores.

I think all can agree that the LA is due to two stat bonuses. By reducing the starting point buy by four one effectively removes the bonuses without actually removing them. This means they can still get a good DEX and/or CON more efficiently but it would hurt them in other stats of their choosing while not creating an automatic dump stat.
Jexil
10-05-07, 03:25 PM I can't think of any playable race with no level adjustment that has two stat bonuses and no stat penalties.

I've played a hobgoblin before and I didn't complain about the level adjustment. I played a monk, and the +2 Dex/Con with no drawbacks to offset it was nice. Is the hobgoblin the best +1 LA race out there? No, far from it. But to me, it's still better than any +0 LA race. If you take away the LA and keep the race as written, you'll have players wanting to play hobgoblins every time.

Also, I don't mind the idea that monster races might not be quite up to par (after the LA) with the core races. It just means they are more of a challenge to play, intended for mainly experienced players.
DM-Scott
10-05-07, 04:12 PM I dunno. Me and my friends never impose the +1LA to Hobgoblins (or Blue Goblins from the Expanded Psionics Handbook) because we feel they aren't warranted. They don't even stand up well against PHB races without the level adjustment, and are completely nerfed with it.

My group has a good mix of power gamers in it. One is always trying to come up with a great build, while the others are quickly becoming strong character builders. Hobgoblins, Blues, and other races, and we see a large number of other races (kalashtar, gnomes, humans, orcs, warforged, dwarves, halflings, kobolds, blue goblins, etcetera), with halfling being one of the more popular ones, and it is the general consensus in our group that dwarves and halflings are two of the "best" races stat-wise.

It's been pointed out on the Unearthed Arcana boards, but the hobgoblin more or less amounts to the following.

+1HP/level
+1 Fortitude saves
+1 to Ranged attack rolls (weapon finesse-able)
+1 AC from Dex (limited by armor / flat footed)
+1 Reflex saves (from dex)
+1 to Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Open Lock, Ride, Slight of Hand, Tumble, and Use Rope (all from dex)
+1 to Concentration (front con)
+5 to Move Silently (+4 racial, +1 dex)
Darkvision 60ft.
Favored Class: Fighter

In truth, this isn't really that impressive. Any race that gains +2 dexterity gets all but one of the skill increases. The dexterity to AC is good, but isn't as good as +1 natural, or +1 size (while it's nice for touch attacks, it isn't as stackable).

While they have standard speed (30ft), halflings and dwarves trump them in most cases. Whereas the hobgoblin's best aspects is the +1 bonus across many skills, they aren't clearly superior in any particular class, but in fact have benefits that could fit any class a bit. Their best classes would probably be rogue, barbarian, or wizard/sorcerer.

Compare to the dwarf or halfling and you'll find they are actually pretty well balanced. The dwarf and halflings are equal or better for a number of classes, and that dwarves even make some of the strongest spellcasters (wizards/clerics/druids, though their -2 cha limits their effectiveness as bards & sorcerers, they can still do it well).

Deep dwarves are as stacked as regular dwarves, and increase their saving throws and such by +3 instead of +2, and have darkvision 90ft. Their drawback for this? Light sensitivity (-1 to attacks, search, and spot checks in bright sunlight or daylight spell radius). A LA +0 race no less.

Yeah, hobgoblins are fun, and pretty good - but definately not "you'll have players wanting to play hobgoblins every time" material, unless those players just want to play hobgoblins 'cause they like them (like some players like elves or gnomes). Hobgoblins are kind of like humans without the bonus feat and skill points. They trade it that for some +1 bonuses across a variety of things, and are generally decent choices for any class, while other races are obvious choices for their respective classes.

Comments & Questions welcome.
Peace out, Game on.
Jexil
10-05-07, 07:33 PM I love dwarves and halflings as much as the next guy, and each has some great advantages. But they each have their drawbacks, too. Dwarves have -2 Cha, speed 20'. Halflings have -2 Str, plus the penalties that come with being small size. Hobgoblins don't exactly have a killer list of advantages, but they have a few decent ones and NO drawbacks. That's hard to beat. And like I said, I don't think there are any LA+0 races that have ability bonuses with no ability penalties. That seems to be one of the guidelines behind LA logic. Obviously, every DM can replace this with his/her own logic, but I tend to follow it.
Return of the Flumph
10-06-07, 12:58 AM The ability scores and Toughness were both me. The skill bonuses were RobbyPants. Not sure who came up with the +1 to hit against elves...was it also you, Robby?

Anyway, I've made extensive use of the above hobmod in my Goblinoid Army thread.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
James18 10-05-07, 01:56 AM	Well our DM recently let us play a monstrous campaign. :) We came to the table with some lofty creations. A half-iron, a half-dragon, a half-fiend, and a gith. This went down quicker then a halfling in a bar fight:surrender. Our Dm decided that no LE creatures were allowed and had us make due with that. We came back with a CE barbarian/fighter Orc, a pyro NE Kobald sorcerer, a LN nature-monk who thinks he is a minotaur, and me :fight!: a LE exiled Ranger/Fighter Hobgoblin. We each have our own reasons and goals for joining, mine as the leader of the group is to raise my fellow party members level to where they can rule over their fellow tribes and then I will have gained 3 leutenents in my new army that spans 4 different races. :plotting: All seems well and good. But wait! The hobgoblin is a +1LE. Yeah I know wth. :confused: They get +2 Dex and +2 Con Darkvision 60 ft Standard movement of 30th +4 Move Silently Favored class: Fighter :bow: Wow yeah such a power house. You really need to rein in that one. I compared that to the two most compairable non LA core races and have the dwarf and half-orc. Both of these races get darkvision, which I concede is a huge benefit. The dwarf doesn't get the dex bonus and has slightly lower speed (unless we both are in heavy armor) but also gets a slew of other bonuses and a one handed weapon that deals 1d10 that other races need a feat to learn. The half-orc gets +2 Str, another huge benifit, and -2 Int and -2 Cha (but who cares about Cha anyway) I just don't see this +1 la as justified, I have looked at what other +1le races get, planetouched, and its more then non balanced stat bonuses. My DM agrees and we don't give the +1 la for the hobgoblins. We put it through the wash test of a level 2 Dwarf Fighter vs a level 1 Hobgoblin Fighter or a level 2 Barbarian vs a level 1 Hobgoblin figher and it just doesn't pan out. My question is do you think that Hobgoblins are worth a +1 la, and what other races do you think are under or over valued on the la department. I almost want to give Kobalds a -1 la. Now if you will excuse me I need to draw up battle plans for our attack on the nearby village. I think we have finally taught our sorcerer to burn people, stop, put out fire, loot, burn corpse. Its a time consuming process but we have had some practice on halfling bards we have captured. They are a dime a dozen and nobody cares if they go missing. :)
wizarddog 10-05-07, 02:08 AM	Consider that you just got a +2 DX and a +2 CN without any deductions is why it is +1 LA. You could start with a 20 DX and a 20 CN at 1st level. And without a deduction, the character could be better at certain classes the Halforc and the Dwarf would not like sorcerer, Bard, or Rogue. (and by the way, that Dwarven war axe is treated as a martial weapon-so the dwarf has to have martial weapon prof to use it.) A Kolbold does get a 30 base landspeed even while being small and the favored class is sorcerer AND a +1 natural Armorclass. That's not bad for a +0. ;)
Ddraiglais 10-05-07, 02:15 AM	I agree. If you had lost something in other abilities, even if it was cha; then it wouldn't have the LA.
JulesCARV 10-05-07, 02:18 AM	I've heard there's some obscure third-party sourced racial, first-level only hobgoblin feat that reduces LA from +1 to +0. Maybe you could ask your DM if you could exchange your level 1 feat for no level adjustment.
RobbyPants 10-05-07, 10:31 AM	There was another similar thread a while back. I eventually posted one version of a LA +0 hobgoblin that got fairly good feedback. Original version modified: (old, new) +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution., -2 Wisdom. A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision out to 60 feet. Toughness as a bonus feat. +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. +2 racial bonus on Profession (Siege Engineering). +2 racial bonus on Knowledge (History). +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against elves Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc. Favored Class: Fighter. Level adjustment +1. +0. The basic idea was to "balance" the ability scores out. I put in -2 Wisdom to represent their arrogance and over-confidence. I under no circumstances wanted to impose a -2 Int or Cha, so this naturally only left me with Wis. I removed the +2 Con and gave Toughness instead. This is a weaker option that still preserves the flavor (the idea came from Return_Of_The_Flumph). The +1 to hit against elves just make sense (they hate them). The +2 Profession (Siege Engineering) will probably never see any game play 95% of the time, but it's there for flavor. The +2 Knowledge (History) is there to represnt a knowledge of warfare (I think I remember seeing History used in one or two books for military purposes). So the final version looks something like: +2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom. A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision out to 60 feet. Toughness as a bonus feat. +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. +2 racial bonus on Profession (Siege Engineering). +2 racial bonus on Knowledge (History). +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against elves Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc. Favored Class: Fighter. Level adjustment +0. It still (I feel) preserves all the flavor of a hobgoblin, while actually adding some. I felt the original MM hobgoblin was more of a LA +0.25ish character. It just got rounded up to be on the safe side. I figured a relatively small amount of tweaking would bring them down to a solid LA +0, and I think this does so nicely.
Senevri 10-05-07, 10:56 AM	I like that hobby mod. To the OP: Consider this: +2 dex is +1 AC, +1 REF, possibly a +1 ATK, and +1 to most of the often-used skills. Similarily, +2 con is actually +1 fort, +1HP/level, +1 concentration and so on. Not to mention what they do with feats which have a minimum stat prereq.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-05-07, 11:00 AM	There have been at least five Hobgoblin characters in my gaming group. None of them had any LA. Didn't break the game but was a lot of fun. So, they don't really need the LA. They are very good without it, like Dwarves and worthless with it.
Ecalsneerg 10-05-07, 11:02 AM	I a group like that, it's unlikely to need an LA. But your DM band Le, but allows CE? Odd.
ohyeahsweet 10-05-07, 11:02 AM	RobbyPants---->your revised Hob is excellent, I hope you don't mind if I steal it.
RobbyPants 10-05-07, 02:42 PM	I like that hobby mod.RobbyPants---->your revised Hob is excellent, I hope you don't mind if I steal it. Thanks and thanks :D In all fairness, I can't claim the entire idea. As mentioned, Return_Of_The_Flumph was the one who originally came up with the idea of dropping the +2 Con and swapping with Toughness. He may have had the idea to put in the -2 Wis too (I know he at least supported the choice). As for the two skill boosts and attack against elves, I just figured it was an easy way to make them more flavorful, so they felt like a typical PHB race. Feel free to use it. So far as I know, Return_Of_The_Flumph is using them too.
StevenO 10-05-07, 02:50 PM	My solution to ignoring the Hobgoblin's +1 LA is to give it -4 BP when creating initial ability scores. I think all can agree that the LA is due to two stat bonuses. By reducing the starting point buy by four one effectively removes the bonuses without actually removing them. This means they can still get a good DEX and/or CON more efficiently but it would hurt them in other stats of their choosing while not creating an automatic dump stat.
Jexil 10-05-07, 03:25 PM	I can't think of any playable race with no level adjustment that has two stat bonuses and no stat penalties. I've played a hobgoblin before and I didn't complain about the level adjustment. I played a monk, and the +2 Dex/Con with no drawbacks to offset it was nice. Is the hobgoblin the best +1 LA race out there? No, far from it. But to me, it's still better than any +0 LA race. If you take away the LA and keep the race as written, you'll have players wanting to play hobgoblins every time. Also, I don't mind the idea that monster races might not be quite up to par (after the LA) with the core races. It just means they are more of a challenge to play, intended for mainly experienced players.
DM-Scott 10-05-07, 04:12 PM	I dunno. Me and my friends never impose the +1LA to Hobgoblins (or Blue Goblins from the Expanded Psionics Handbook) because we feel they aren't warranted. They don't even stand up well against PHB races without the level adjustment, and are completely nerfed with it. My group has a good mix of power gamers in it. One is always trying to come up with a great build, while the others are quickly becoming strong character builders. Hobgoblins, Blues, and other races, and we see a large number of other races (kalashtar, gnomes, humans, orcs, warforged, dwarves, halflings, kobolds, blue goblins, etcetera), with halfling being one of the more popular ones, and it is the general consensus in our group that dwarves and halflings are two of the "best" races stat-wise. It's been pointed out on the Unearthed Arcana boards, but the hobgoblin more or less amounts to the following. +1HP/level +1 Fortitude saves +1 to Ranged attack rolls (weapon finesse-able) +1 AC from Dex (limited by armor / flat footed) +1 Reflex saves (from dex) +1 to Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Open Lock, Ride, Slight of Hand, Tumble, and Use Rope (all from dex) +1 to Concentration (front con) +5 to Move Silently (+4 racial, +1 dex) Darkvision 60ft. Favored Class: Fighter In truth, this isn't really that impressive. Any race that gains +2 dexterity gets all but one of the skill increases. The dexterity to AC is good, but isn't as good as +1 natural, or +1 size (while it's nice for touch attacks, it isn't as stackable). While they have standard speed (30ft), halflings and dwarves trump them in most cases. Whereas the hobgoblin's best aspects is the +1 bonus across many skills, they aren't clearly superior in any particular class, but in fact have benefits that could fit any class a bit. Their best classes would probably be rogue, barbarian, or wizard/sorcerer. Compare to the dwarf or halfling and you'll find they are actually pretty well balanced. The dwarf and halflings are equal or better for a number of classes, and that dwarves even make some of the strongest spellcasters (wizards/clerics/druids, though their -2 cha limits their effectiveness as bards & sorcerers, they can still do it well). Deep dwarves are as stacked as regular dwarves, and increase their saving throws and such by +3 instead of +2, and have darkvision 90ft. Their drawback for this? Light sensitivity (-1 to attacks, search, and spot checks in bright sunlight or daylight spell radius). A LA +0 race no less. Yeah, hobgoblins are fun, and pretty good - but definately not "you'll have players wanting to play hobgoblins every time" material, unless those players just want to play hobgoblins 'cause they like them (like some players like elves or gnomes). Hobgoblins are kind of like humans without the bonus feat and skill points. They trade it that for some +1 bonuses across a variety of things, and are generally decent choices for any class, while other races are obvious choices for their respective classes. Comments & Questions welcome. Peace out, Game on.
Jexil 10-05-07, 07:33 PM	I love dwarves and halflings as much as the next guy, and each has some great advantages. But they each have their drawbacks, too. Dwarves have -2 Cha, speed 20'. Halflings have -2 Str, plus the penalties that come with being small size. Hobgoblins don't exactly have a killer list of advantages, but they have a few decent ones and NO drawbacks. That's hard to beat. And like I said, I don't think there are any LA+0 races that have ability bonuses with no ability penalties. That seems to be one of the guidelines behind LA logic. Obviously, every DM can replace this with his/her own logic, but I tend to follow it.
Return of the Flumph 10-06-07, 12:58 AM	The ability scores and Toughness were both me. The skill bonuses were RobbyPants. Not sure who came up with the +1 to hit against elves...was it also you, Robby? Anyway, I've made extensive use of the above hobmod in my Goblinoid Army thread.