Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MaximumPain 10-02-06, 09:51 PM	I have a game coming up where I will have up to 10 players (if every one shows up). I am looking for ways to manage such a large group. I know that people will say to split up the group and run 2 sessions or find a second DM and have them take half the group and start another game but these are not options in our situation. All of the players are long time close friends (and 2 of their kids) and I am only able to run the game every other week (and my wife is not even happy about that much gaming lol). What I want today is a critique of my ideas of how to manage the group and any other suggestions of how DMs have managed large games. So here goes my idea. First of all I will allow the players to have some kind of meeting at the start of the game where they can discuss the upcoming session and there goals and also discuss who will be the leaders for the day. After the meeting each player will cast a secret ballot for three positions. First position will be Travel leader: there responsibility will be where the party goes and what there short term goals are, they will also give orders out of combat such as go talk to a certain NPC, go check the door for traps ect… Second position will be Social Leader: They will handle all NPC conversations and will be allowed to call on other players to use their social skills as they see fit Third position will be Combat Leader: They will set march order, set up attack plans, watch order and composition, and my freely give orders in combat situations even when it is not there turn to act Leaders will be allowed to call a meeting with there fellow players to allow the non leader players a chance for some input but as the DM I reserve the right to cut these meetings short if they run to long or if events in game dictate urgency. During normal play players are not supposed to talk except during there initiative in combat and they are limited to a 5 sec or so statement. Out of combat talking by characters that are not in an appropriate leadership position will be restricted. In order to give the non-leaders some kind of options I intend to pass out tokens at the start of the game (I am think about 3 tokens each but have not come to a final decision). These tokens can be used to allow the player/character to talk out pf turn in combat, talk to an NPC (2 min or so max), take some kind of action even when not called on or ordered, or give a token to any other player. I want to make it clear that they still have control over their character and can refuse to act even when ordered to (um no I refuse to go sneak into the kings treasure room and steal the gem). So there is my idea and I would value any input you fine DMs and players can give me.
trapspringer 10-02-06, 10:10 PM	The party will fracture. Get used to the idea. Whether or not you assign a seperate DM to either half is up to you, but it will expedite things considerably. If you stop the party from splitting on its own then you game will end up a ten person table top war game. Have fun. If you want to try it anyway, then you will need to break the party up into multiple groups, each of which will be assigned a group leader. That leader will be responsible for consolidating all of the character's actions and reporting them to you. You should make use of group inititative for each of these groups as well as for bad guys. This will not be D&D. It will be a table top war game.
Reversefigure4 10-02-06, 10:19 PM	Wow, that sounds really, really horrible. Players won't be allowed to talk except at specified times, will need to have their actions sent through leaders, and will only be allowed to roll at certain times. It's a social roleplaying game without the socialising or the roleplaying. This doesn't sound like fun for anyone - the players, the leaders, or you. You say it's "not an option" to find a second DM - why not? If one of the other players DMed a seperate game (you could even run them at the same time if you still want to all socialise together OOG), you would have one group of 5 and one group of 4. Ideal! At a stretch, you could play this way with one set of books between you, and the SRD would also be helpful. And with a group this large, you might ask people to donate towards another set of books. A mere $10 from everyone should buy a set. Why is this not an option?
MaximumPain 10-02-06, 10:42 PM	Players will be allowed to roll if their character is supposed to roll. And they get there action tokens to allow them some level of input. So do you think 3 action tokens is to few for a session? if I give out to many I may as well not have them at all. I freely admit that it may suck to play in such a game but I am not willing to just give up without trying this experiment if my players decide it sucks then we will try something else. Also we do have 2 other people who could run some sort of game but we also have a pool of 6-8 other potential players and one of the potential DMs may start a game with them. The other potential DM would need some setup time to run something (and I want to play too :tantrum: ). Also most of us are married and have familys so getting out more then once every other week is difficult.
trapspringer 10-02-06, 10:48 PM	There have been no flames. Maybe a peach or two... but no flames.
MaximumPain 10-02-06, 10:51 PM	Sorry I took that out but you must have been in the thread allready lol. I didnt want to offend any one.
Krusk 10-03-06, 12:14 AM	i would suggest having two dms for this group, and running two games in the same setting. maybe the groups meet up every once in a while but generally dont adventure with the whole group of 10 all the time. So when one group decideds to do something send them off with the other dm, and then ytou dm the group that is not doing that. The game is going to splinter into groups so i would suggest doing it befor hand and being prepared. This way you dont have players who are sitting around as you dm one group.
trapspringer 10-03-06, 12:47 PM	Someone posted this in another thread, and I am just barely not going to sig' it. Read this. (http://sean.chittenden.org/humor/www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html)
Miratos 10-03-06, 02:54 PM	Wow...some of that sounds kinda rough. I've DM'ed an 11 person game once and it was very rough. I didn't do much of anything like you did. I think my players would have balked had I tried to. If you can't get a split group going under another DM, here is what I did. You're most experienced and trusted player: Promote him/her to Assistant DM, but continue to allow that person to play (if that person requests it, otherwise just use them as a DM). The Asst. DM should handle: In game pc purchasing and general non-vial NPC encounters (this can be done in whispers or off to the side), handling everyone's initiative roll at the beginning of the game (I recommend rolling initiative 1 time at the start, with the DM rolling the "Mob" initiative at that time as well) and letting it stay the same through the session and allowing the Asst. DM to be the one to call out turns in combat. As well, players who aren't in the spotlight while the DM is focused with some part of the group should talk to the Asst. DM first. Have the players roll both to hit and damage dice at the same time. Make the players keep note cards (or listed on their character sheet) with to hit bonuses and how much damage they do with full attacks, standard attacks, special attacks, etc. During this time, the character should also specify their move action and swift/immediate/free actions as well. Make sure the players know what they are going to do before their turn and that they are prepared to make it when its their time. If they are unprepared, they lose their turn. 30 seconds is plenty of time to resolve a turn in most cases. DM should list the average damage for the mobs and just roll attacks and give out average damage, doubling it on confirmed crits of course. You have enough to keep track of, especially once your mobs get special abilities. I'd recommend note cards to keep that info handy. Set aside 30 minute (or start 1/2 an hour earlier) and follow your outline you listed setting out the session goals and party positions. Make it a quick discussion rather then secret ballot. It additionally behooves the players to just keep the positions from one session to another, unless someone requests a chance to spread their wings. Otherwise, these positions work well enough: First position will be Travel leader: there responsibility will be where the party goes and what there short term goals are, they will also give orders out of combat such as go talk to a certain NPC, go check the door for traps ect… Second position will be Social Leader: They will handle all NPC conversations and will be allowed to call on other players to use their social skills as they see fit Third position will be Combat Leader: They will set march order, set up attack plans, watch order and composition, and my freely give orders in combat situations even when it is not there turn to act Leaders will be allowed to call a meeting with there fellow players to allow the non leader players a chance for some input but as the DM I reserve the right to cut these meetings short if they run to long or if events in game dictate urgency. I'd allow just a 3 minute's for meetings like this tops. Perhaps right before a combat begins, give the players 3-5 minutes to quickly discuss strategy and anything else they need to. During normal play players are not supposed to talk except during there initiative in combat and they are limited to a 5 sec or so statement. Out of combat talking by characters that are not in an appropriate leadership position will be restricted. I usually let my players whisper among themelves or pass notes if they needed to, but what they missed was their own problem. But yes, keep the talking to a minimal and on their turns in combat. We'd also periodically put in a "comments moment" of 2-5 minutes at random points in the game to let people get it out of their system in a controlled manner, but only during non-combat times and times when plot points weren't going on. I don't really like the token idea at all, but if your players don't mind, go for it. I'd suggest 1 token per hour of gaming, cumulative during the session, but reset every new session. I'd also suggest doing alot of stuff off-screen as much as possible (like at the end of a session or before it begins), including: purchases of gear or repairing gear when in cities, training related stuff, rules questions/rulings, PrC questions, etc. The more you can reduce rolling for things, the better things will speed up. Keep the House Rules and Optional Rules to a minimum as well. Remember your encounters will have to be more powerful because of the larger group...but don't make it one or two super powerful mobs, spread it out more so maybe a few are a little more powerful, but there are more mooks to support them. Use note cards (for yourself and get your players to use them too) to write down vitial info, attack strings and anything where lots of variables need to be figured for at-a-glance-viewing. Hope that helps.
Milandros 10-03-06, 05:40 PM	I'd stonrly recommend keeping the game to low levels as well (1-5, ideally). You can't afford the time spent while players read through thirty different spells to work out which one to cast, or add bonuses together from eleven different feats and abilities. Keep the number of things each character can do to a sensible level and it will all go a lot faster.
DarkRhystar 10-03-06, 05:48 PM	I concur with the whole "the tokens idea is awful" thing. I've played with a couple fairly sizable groups. One of the ways that worked was that everyone took turns describing what their character did similar to combat or to a board game. Kind of slow at first, but picks up speed once people get the hang of it.
Tazi Swiftblade 10-03-06, 06:41 PM	I've never DMed a 10-person session, but my regular group is made up of eight, and we manage to rumble along at a pretty good pace without resorting to action tokens and talking-out-of-turn rules. I think the key to managing things is to have a talk with the players at the outset of the campaign to explain how easily a group that large can slip into chaos and to ask for their help in making it run smoothly so that all have fun. Make sure they understand that staying on task with a minimum of jokes and outside comments keeps the game moving along and makes it more enjoyable for everyone. Make sure they know that they may have to take their turn while other people talk if they need to announce something to the DM. You would be surprised how well people respond. My group gets unweildy at times, but generally calms down and gets back to task when I remind them that things are bogging down. One thing that you may suggest to them is that they make one person the party leader so that every decision-making process doesn't grind the action to a halt while everyone weighs in and pontificates at length. Frankly, our game slows more from this than from people talking out of turn. And as game master, make sure you're organized, especially in combat. It took me a while, but I came up with a pretty good record-keeping system so I can keep encounters buzzing along even though there are eight players and plenty of monsters to keep track of. I dunno where I'm heading with this, other than to say that big groups can work, as long as everybody is committed to making them work. I think resorting to a system where people are cashing in action tokens and can't act unless they're voted a leader threatens to take the fun out of it.
MaximumPain 10-03-06, 11:02 PM	I guess my idea is a bit draconian. As it turns out I have one cancelation allready so we are down to 9 people. I will just have the party pick the 3 leaders I described and not try to micromanage there play any more then that unless things get to chaotic. I thank every one who commented.
RetiredThief 10-04-06, 12:07 AM	In another game system I've dm'ed a group nearly that large. Frankly, I think it sucks, as it always seems several players get sidelined without muh chance to participate. Some people are just really into role playing, and others into combat. So, if your session is heavy on one or the other, some players will miss out. I did DM a session with over a dozen players. However, it was pretty scripted, much like a Murder Mystery party, and I had a co-DM who's DMPC was also a secret villain in the game. That worked out well, but it was all played in one, day long session. It was INTENSE, and hard work, but fun. Long term? I'd SO burn out. Knowing that, I wouldn't try in the first place. You're going to NEED a co-DM. At the very least, you need a couple of very experienced players who can help people make choices during other peoples turns, so they will be ready and efficient when their own turn comes up. Good luck.
Toloran 10-04-06, 12:09 AM	My group varies from 8-12 people and we -generally- don't have many problems. Occasionally some will start to interupt game play with side conversations ("what, its my turn already? I um.... let me check how this spell works first...") but whoever is DMing that night generally solves it with a good "Shut the **** up and pay attention." DM'ing large games are hard to balance properly but if you can they are fun. The biggest problems occur when one or two players start to overshadow the others. Then it gets annoying but with practice (and proper adventure planning) it is usually negated. Good piece of advice: Since large groups have so many redundantcies you have to make encounters that require a specific classes abilities (ie, that power gamers min/max'ed monk/fighter from hell is overshadowing the other players but then you get an encounter where players are forced to stick to mostly ranged combat.)
pyropetey9 10-04-06, 03:48 AM	I hope, for your sake, that all the players are experienced. If not, you're boned. Regardless: Make sure you instruct players to decide their characters' combat actions before their initiative comes up, to keep things moving. Know your PCs. Tailor encounters to make sure that everyone is given a chance in the spotlight. Buy stock in some of the various companies that manufacture junk food. With so many players, you're going to be going through a lot of snacks.
MaximumPain 10-04-06, 05:34 AM	I hope, for your sake, that all the players are experienced. If not, you're boned. Regardless:. Except for the one of the kids they are one of the most mature groups ive had the pleasure to run, the kid has only played once but his dad will be there so I expect him to be well behaved Make sure you instruct players to decide their characters' combat actions before their initiative comes up, to keep things moving.. Great idea ill get some one probably the combat leader to encourage them to be ready Know your PCs. Tailor encounters to make sure that everyone is given a chance in the spotlight.. I know the PCS quite well but that will still be a challange. My world is designed so that the players can pick their poison so to speak. They have a lot of choices about what to do and what problems they should try to tackle. I have allways belived in giving the players options but with a group this size that may bog us down some. Buy stock in some of the various companies that manufacture junk food. With so many players, you're going to be going through a lot of snacks. Dont forget the Dew we keep them in bussiness allready. My real problem is that I have a hard time saying no when people want to play. I need to pick my group based on who can show up the most often and stick with them. I have run games with 8 people before and they went allright but 9-10 is more then I have ever done
MaximumPain 10-04-06, 05:36 AM	Good piece of advice: Since large groups have so many redundantcies you have to make encounters that require a specific classes abilities (ie, that power gamers min/max'ed monk/fighter from hell is overshadowing the other players but then you get an encounter where players are forced to stick to mostly ranged combat.) Allready try to do this when I can but I can see that it will be even more Importent with this many fools playing.
MSW 10-04-06, 05:51 PM	Cons are usually for 8 players, and it's not uncommon to go to 10 or even 12, but these are one shot, 8 hour affairs. I've done 7-8 regulars and I can't see why adding a couple more would hurt with a few ground rules and great organization/cooperation from the players. Also realize that it's unlikely that that many folks are going to be able to show up together week in and week out. Ground rule #1, when combat happens, and your initiative is called, be ready to do something right away! Don't let things bog down because of the magic users looking stuff up. Call their character/s name/initiative and give them a few seconds to say what they are going to do and do it. If they aren't ready or hesitate, announce that the characters holds his action and move on. Ground rule #2, what are you going to do with characters when their players can't come? For smaller groups it's good to run them as NPCs or let another player run the character. For bigger groups it's not. One less person/character is one less initiative. You need to decide how to handle this because with a group this large someone will be missing from each session most likely. Ground rule #3, how is treasure going to be divided. I kid you not, the problem with a large group isn't how to get combat to run smoothly, it's who is going to get the +2 ring of protection? If you can go into it with a clear system or agreed upon way of diving up the loot, you'll be far better off. Dividing treasure can really bog down the play time and lead to some big arguments otherwise. Ground rule #4, follow the spotlight. With a large group, everyone needs to realize that their characters cant do everything and be involved in everything all of the time. There will be times when the spotlight will shine on one or a few characters at a time and the others need to be willing to fill the supporting roles. Sometimes the spotlight will shine on them and the others will be the supporting characters. If you get a few players that want to be involved in everything, all of the time, it makes for problems in a large group. Something that works well is to split the group in half within the session and send them on two separate tasks. Maybe 5 of them are going to take some treasure to get appraised / sold while the other 5 will go to the library to research that ancient map they just discovered. Movies do this all the time, tell two parts of the story at once. Obviously you are one DM and can only tell one part of the story at a time. So what you can do is 'recruit' the off camera players and let them run some NPCs for you against the 'on scene' PCs. That way everyone gets to play and get XP. When that is resolved, you switch to the other scene of PCs and the roles get reversed. Everyone plays, all the time and no one is left bored for a couple hours at a time.