100,000 gp for a level?! [Archive] - Wizards Community

100,000 gp for a level?! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fatdaddy100
11-10-06, 05:25 PM Ok get this, my DnD group is starting a new campaign at 14th level. Everyone is making their guy, and we are all getting finished, just then my one friend decides he wants to start at 15 instead of 14 so he doesn't have to hassle later with putting in his last level of the Prc Elemental Savant. My DM decides to allow him to pay 100,000 gp for "training" in the past to allow him to start the campaign at 15. I think this is in-balancing to the party but he won't see my point of view. He didn't even have a formula for figuring this price, he just made it up. I have no problem with house rules as long as they are consistant and we know about them. I had no idea I could ask my DM for crazy stuff like that, and the group was never imformed beforehand about this option...

Do you think he should have done this? Any other comments?
necrom99
11-10-06, 06:02 PM This is why high level play must be earned all the way from first level, not just arbitrarily start at level 14, 100,000GP or not!

Everytime a DM stops his low level play games that he keeps restarting instead of following through, and starts one at high level because of his impatients...........G0d kills a baby kitten!
Burgundy Lotus
11-10-06, 06:26 PM I would have charged 50,000 (the difference in starting wealth from 14th to 15th) it's a sizable chunk and can easily be justified as not arbitrary.

Oh, there is no such thing as a baby kitten, a kitten is a baby cat.
pyropetey9
11-10-06, 11:54 PM i would have just started everyone at level 15 and been done with it.
Comus
11-11-06, 12:24 AM Depends on what he's playing. If he's a caster, then he's really coming out ahead. If he's a fighter... well, they rely on their equipment for a lot. For a skilled character, I'd say it again is going to rely more on equipment.

If he takes Vow of Poverty, I'd stab him in the face with lasers.
Shadowmagyk
11-11-06, 01:06 AM There is a formula that is used for determining magic item values with XP costs. It states that 1XP is equal to five gold pieces. In this instance, the player would receive 20,000XP for the 100,000GP that he spent to attain the level. The difference between 14th and 15th levels is 14,000XP, which means that he has enough gold to spend to get the next level, but he loses 30,000GP in the process because the DM increased the amount of gold that it would take with the above formula.

I would not allow this, and would just tell everyone to be 15th level, which makes it easy, and there is no whining about unfairness. Of course, it is very hard to function at high levels without being equipped properly. The spellcasters will have less trouble doing this, but having those high-level spellcaster items can help a great deal.

Anyway, 3.5 has a formula for giving more XP to the lower level characters, so you will become on par with him in no time.
dmjacques
11-11-06, 01:44 AM This is why high level play must be earned all the way from first level, not just arbitrarily start at level 14, 100,000GP or not!

Everytime a DM stops his low level play games that he keeps restarting instead of following through, and starts one at high level because of his impatients...........G0d kills a baby kitten!

I love you, ( clears throat) well abnormalties aside I agree with you on the high lv stuff( I have never made a game that dont start lv1 , got 2 games almost going thatll go on till probly 15 if you wanna join ) but yay and also with the killing kittens thing ( not the god thing I have religon and belive in god) but I just enjoy seeing kittys set ablaze
Salla
11-11-06, 07:13 AM So, he let a PC BUY A LEVEL?!

Pardon me while I channel William Shatner.

OH ... mygodthat ... is ... ... ... IncrediblyStupid.

I sure as **** wouldn't allow it.
There's nothing wrong with starting a game at high level if all the players and DMs agree, but the idea of purchasing a level rather than getting it through adventuring is completely stupid. You gain experience points from overcoming challenges; there are no challenges in a controlled training environment unless you're in constant danger of dying during said training ... in which case, IT'S AN ADVENTURE! Just dropping gold to buy a level off-camera ... my head can't take it ... Shatner ... taking ... overmymind!
Nom
11-11-06, 01:00 PM By and large, it's not inherently abusive. At higher levels, a significant portion of the PC's capability comes from equipment; this player just wants to swap out some of that for inherent power.

The problems come down the track. Since there's no real way to quantify the "power" value of equipment, the PC is thereafter going to be dinged XP relative to his companions without compensation for his weaker fit-out. Alternatively, he may pressure the other PCs into making up for his lack of equipment by granting an unfair share of treasure. And at some point in the future, 100k is going to be worth a lot less than it is at the current level.

My gut feeling: as long as the PC doesn't want "favourable treatment" in the treasure distribution department, it should work out OK. As time passes, the treasure difference will minimise and the XP weighting against his higher level will minimise the XP difference.
Tyler Do'Urden
11-11-06, 01:20 PM Everytime a DM stops his low level play games that he keeps restarting instead of following through, and starts one at high level because of his impatients...........G0d kills a baby kitten!Yeah, but those two events aren't really related. It's just an eerie coincidence between the rate of campaign abortion and the rate of divine kitten smitings.

That is kinda screwed up though. That's sort of like sitting down to play Monopoly, then saying "Hey, can I buy Park Place now? I don't wanna have to have to go all the way around the board first."
DarknessEternal
11-11-06, 02:20 PM Convince your DM to start everyone at 15. Starting level is pretty arbitrary.
Solik
11-11-06, 03:54 PM It's one level.

Fail a save against a beholder death ray and you're behind one level, too.

This shouldn't break the game.
Milandros
11-11-06, 04:24 PM It's in no way gamebreaking, but I do understand why other players might feel a little aggrieved if they weren't given the same offer too.

Personally I think it's a missed opportunity - getting the last level of a prestige class shouldn't be viewed as a hassle, it's a culmination of a life's work as he achieves full mastery of his chosen field. Furthermore, I presume he has a new path in mind - and having the RP option of p[laying into this new class would be a lot of fun.

Also, take note that PCs started at 14th or 15th level will be far more powerful (though often distinctly less interesting or flexible) than PCs started from the beginning in any game that doesn't have super-mega-magimarts. By allowing players to buy directly from the DMG and whatever expansions you allow and assigning them wealth-per-level appropriately instead of having them discover various treasures and artifacts along the way, they will likely tailor their magic items to boost one or two features of their class - it allows a level of powergaming that is harder to do if they have to aquire their magic through adventuring backed by crafting. Of course, if magimarts with all items in stock do exist in your world, this isn't necessarily true any more, as all treasures and artificats found are likely to have been converted to GP in order to buy optimised items.
DarknessEternal
11-12-06, 03:47 AM Also, take note that PCs started at 14th or 15th level will be far more powerful (though often distinctly less interesting or flexible) than PCs started from the beginning in any game that doesn't have super-mega-magimarts. By allowing players to buy directly from the DMG and whatever expansions you allow and assigning them wealth-per-level appropriately instead of having them discover various treasures and artifacts along the way, they will likely tailor their magic items to boost one or two features of their class - it allows a level of powergaming that is harder to do if they have to aquire their magic through adventuring backed by crafting. Of course, if magimarts with all items in stock do exist in your world, this isn't necessarily true any more, as all treasures and artificats found are likely to have been converted to GP in order to buy optimised items.
You say all this as if it weren't explicitly stated that's what the intention was in 3.0/3.5 D&D: to specifically tailor your magic items because they are available.
KurenaiYami
11-12-06, 04:03 AM Everytime a DM stops his low level play games that he keeps restarting instead of following through, and starts one at high level because of his impatients...........G0d kills a baby kitten!
I can still hear the screams late at night...
I'm sorry I couldn't save you...Mr. Flufferton...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fatdaddy100 11-10-06, 05:25 PM	Ok get this, my DnD group is starting a new campaign at 14th level. Everyone is making their guy, and we are all getting finished, just then my one friend decides he wants to start at 15 instead of 14 so he doesn't have to hassle later with putting in his last level of the Prc Elemental Savant. My DM decides to allow him to pay 100,000 gp for "training" in the past to allow him to start the campaign at 15. I think this is in-balancing to the party but he won't see my point of view. He didn't even have a formula for figuring this price, he just made it up. I have no problem with house rules as long as they are consistant and we know about them. I had no idea I could ask my DM for crazy stuff like that, and the group was never imformed beforehand about this option... Do you think he should have done this? Any other comments?
necrom99 11-10-06, 06:02 PM	This is why high level play must be earned all the way from first level, not just arbitrarily start at level 14, 100,000GP or not! Everytime a DM stops his low level play games that he keeps restarting instead of following through, and starts one at high level because of his impatients...........G0d kills a baby kitten!
Burgundy Lotus 11-10-06, 06:26 PM	I would have charged 50,000 (the difference in starting wealth from 14th to 15th) it's a sizable chunk and can easily be justified as not arbitrary. Oh, there is no such thing as a baby kitten, a kitten is a baby cat.
pyropetey9 11-10-06, 11:54 PM	i would have just started everyone at level 15 and been done with it.
Comus 11-11-06, 12:24 AM	Depends on what he's playing. If he's a caster, then he's really coming out ahead. If he's a fighter... well, they rely on their equipment for a lot. For a skilled character, I'd say it again is going to rely more on equipment. If he takes Vow of Poverty, I'd stab him in the face with lasers.
Shadowmagyk 11-11-06, 01:06 AM	There is a formula that is used for determining magic item values with XP costs. It states that 1XP is equal to five gold pieces. In this instance, the player would receive 20,000XP for the 100,000GP that he spent to attain the level. The difference between 14th and 15th levels is 14,000XP, which means that he has enough gold to spend to get the next level, but he loses 30,000GP in the process because the DM increased the amount of gold that it would take with the above formula. I would not allow this, and would just tell everyone to be 15th level, which makes it easy, and there is no whining about unfairness. Of course, it is very hard to function at high levels without being equipped properly. The spellcasters will have less trouble doing this, but having those high-level spellcaster items can help a great deal. Anyway, 3.5 has a formula for giving more XP to the lower level characters, so you will become on par with him in no time.
dmjacques 11-11-06, 01:44 AM	This is why high level play must be earned all the way from first level, not just arbitrarily start at level 14, 100,000GP or not! Everytime a DM stops his low level play games that he keeps restarting instead of following through, and starts one at high level because of his impatients...........G0d kills a baby kitten! I love you, ( clears throat) well abnormalties aside I agree with you on the high lv stuff( I have never made a game that dont start lv1 , got 2 games almost going thatll go on till probly 15 if you wanna join ) but yay and also with the killing kittens thing ( not the god thing I have religon and belive in god) but I just enjoy seeing kittys set ablaze
Salla 11-11-06, 07:13 AM	So, he let a PC BUY A LEVEL?! Pardon me while I channel William Shatner. OH ... mygodthat ... is ... ... ... IncrediblyStupid. I sure as **** wouldn't allow it. There's nothing wrong with starting a game at high level if all the players and DMs agree, but the idea of purchasing a level rather than getting it through adventuring is completely stupid. You gain experience points from overcoming challenges; there are no challenges in a controlled training environment unless you're in constant danger of dying during said training ... in which case, IT'S AN ADVENTURE! Just dropping gold to buy a level off-camera ... my head can't take it ... Shatner ... taking ... overmymind!
Nom 11-11-06, 01:00 PM	By and large, it's not inherently abusive. At higher levels, a significant portion of the PC's capability comes from equipment; this player just wants to swap out some of that for inherent power. The problems come down the track. Since there's no real way to quantify the "power" value of equipment, the PC is thereafter going to be dinged XP relative to his companions without compensation for his weaker fit-out. Alternatively, he may pressure the other PCs into making up for his lack of equipment by granting an unfair share of treasure. And at some point in the future, 100k is going to be worth a lot less than it is at the current level. My gut feeling: as long as the PC doesn't want "favourable treatment" in the treasure distribution department, it should work out OK. As time passes, the treasure difference will minimise and the XP weighting against his higher level will minimise the XP difference.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-11-06, 01:20 PM	Everytime a DM stops his low level play games that he keeps restarting instead of following through, and starts one at high level because of his impatients...........G0d kills a baby kitten!Yeah, but those two events aren't really related. It's just an eerie coincidence between the rate of campaign abortion and the rate of divine kitten smitings. That is kinda screwed up though. That's sort of like sitting down to play Monopoly, then saying "Hey, can I buy Park Place now? I don't wanna have to have to go all the way around the board first."
DarknessEternal 11-11-06, 02:20 PM	Convince your DM to start everyone at 15. Starting level is pretty arbitrary.
Solik 11-11-06, 03:54 PM	It's one level. Fail a save against a beholder death ray and you're behind one level, too. This shouldn't break the game.
Milandros 11-11-06, 04:24 PM	It's in no way gamebreaking, but I do understand why other players might feel a little aggrieved if they weren't given the same offer too. Personally I think it's a missed opportunity - getting the last level of a prestige class shouldn't be viewed as a hassle, it's a culmination of a life's work as he achieves full mastery of his chosen field. Furthermore, I presume he has a new path in mind - and having the RP option of p[laying into this new class would be a lot of fun. Also, take note that PCs started at 14th or 15th level will be far more powerful (though often distinctly less interesting or flexible) than PCs started from the beginning in any game that doesn't have super-mega-magimarts. By allowing players to buy directly from the DMG and whatever expansions you allow and assigning them wealth-per-level appropriately instead of having them discover various treasures and artifacts along the way, they will likely tailor their magic items to boost one or two features of their class - it allows a level of powergaming that is harder to do if they have to aquire their magic through adventuring backed by crafting. Of course, if magimarts with all items in stock do exist in your world, this isn't necessarily true any more, as all treasures and artificats found are likely to have been converted to GP in order to buy optimised items.
DarknessEternal 11-12-06, 03:47 AM	Also, take note that PCs started at 14th or 15th level will be far more powerful (though often distinctly less interesting or flexible) than PCs started from the beginning in any game that doesn't have super-mega-magimarts. By allowing players to buy directly from the DMG and whatever expansions you allow and assigning them wealth-per-level appropriately instead of having them discover various treasures and artifacts along the way, they will likely tailor their magic items to boost one or two features of their class - it allows a level of powergaming that is harder to do if they have to aquire their magic through adventuring backed by crafting. Of course, if magimarts with all items in stock do exist in your world, this isn't necessarily true any more, as all treasures and artificats found are likely to have been converted to GP in order to buy optimised items. You say all this as if it weren't explicitly stated that's what the intention was in 3.0/3.5 D&D: to specifically tailor your magic items because they are available.
KurenaiYami 11-12-06, 04:03 AM	Everytime a DM stops his low level play games that he keeps restarting instead of following through, and starts one at high level because of his impatients...........G0d kills a baby kitten! I can still hear the screams late at night... I'm sorry I couldn't save you...Mr. Flufferton...