100 gp per spell, please... [Archive] - Wizards Community

100 gp per spell, please... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Elysianhero
10-16-06, 05:39 PM Can this be true? Could someone please explain why it costs 100 gp to put a new spell into a spell book? Isn't that a bit much for a wizard? I mean, they only get two spells per level otherwise! Does this make up for armor prices, etc.? Thanks again guys. All of you who have helped me has turned me into a decent DM (my players love me! I am sooo happy). =)

Elysianhero
Artector
10-16-06, 05:54 PM Ahem:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html

I'm not sure how it affects balance, but I don't like wizards anyways... (they're cool, just not as cool as they could be)
Arcen
10-16-06, 05:57 PM I think the PHB explains it as the cost of special materials (enchanted inks and whatnot) needed to properly copy the spell into your book. But yeah, it's pretty much for balance. Although it can make a wizard's life hell at early levels.
Ogmug
10-16-06, 05:58 PM Can this be true? Could someone please explain why it costs 100 gp to put a new spell into a spell book? Isn't that a bit much for a wizard? I mean, they only get two spells per level otherwise! Does this make up for armor prices, etc.? Thanks again guys. All of you who have helped me has turned me into a decent DM (my players love me! I am sooo happy). =)

Elysianhero
Free spells (the two per level) do not cost the player to place in the book:

Materials and Costs

Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page.

Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level.

It is only for spells obtained in other methods (scrolls, other caster's , etc) and it is the cost of the materials (inks, etc)
Cifer
10-16-06, 06:35 PM this make up for armor prices, etc.?
That's what it does.
pierow37
10-16-06, 06:41 PM Wizards are good for 1 thing. spechilzation.
The 2 good htings to specilize in are necormancy, and illusion. you have a dread necromancer(hoh) as a base class as well as a bard(phb).
so i'm under the firm impression that wizards are just morons. Be a sorcerr. Or be what i ALWAYS am. a bard!
Weaponbreaker
10-16-06, 06:59 PM It hoses you early on but what I have found is that as your players gain more wealth and levels the hardest part is finding 4-5 days to input all the new spells you just bought.
Cold Napalm
10-16-06, 07:05 PM It makes so little sense that it's not even funny. A level 1 mage has thousands of gold worth of rare ink and materials in their spellbook. Makes me wonder why commoners don't take a level of wizard so they sell the book and live comfortable for the rest of their lives...
Einvaldurinn_mikli
10-16-06, 07:09 PM Wizards are good for 1 thing. spechilzation.
The 2 good htings to specilize in are necormancy, and illusion. you have a dread necromancer(hoh) as a base class as well as a bard(phb).
so i'm under the firm impression that wizards are just morons. Be a sorcerr. Or be what i ALWAYS am. a bard!
1.Never take advice from someone that can't spell.(jk)
2. He is very, very wrong.
Specializing as a wizard is pretty awful. If you happen to specialize it should not be Necromancy, Illusion is a decent choice but Divination is the best.(may change with CM).

The costs are not very great if you get a Boccob's Blessed Book or just use secret page.

The wizard class overall is WAY stronger then either the Bard, Sorceror or the Dread Necromancer. And finally a wizard cannot be a moron. Int is after all their primary stat.
Cifer
10-16-06, 07:25 PM I wanted to say something, but Einvaldurinn took the words right out of my mouth. How dare you, Ein?

Wizard is one of the strongest non-CoDzilla classes out there and stomps every bard and dread necro into the ground in a "fair fight" from midlevels on. He can't destroy Tokyo with radioactive fire, but at least do so with its suburbs.
Limousine_Liberal
10-16-06, 07:29 PM Can this be true? Could someone please explain why it costs 100 gp to put a new spell into a spell book? Isn't that a bit much for a wizard? I mean, they only get two spells per level otherwise! Does this make up for armor prices, etc.? Thanks again guys. All of you who have helped me has turned me into a decent DM (my players love me! I am sooo happy). =)

Elysianhero
I believe its 100gp per spell level, so a 9th level spell coasts 900 gp (because it takes up 9 pages).

In part this is a way to balance wizard against the less expensive sorcerer. In practice, what it means is that you *must* invest in Blessed Books, since it costs nothing to scribe spells into them (once you have the book, at least). If you use Blessed Books, the impact of the rule is not so bad.
Neerie
10-17-06, 12:01 AM The gp price not only accounts for the (lack of) armor that other classes have to buy, it also serves to control the amount of spells one wizard put into their spellbook(s) in order to balance them with other caster classes.

Because even if a wizard need to prepare spells in advance and has a limited number of spells per day, having an (almost) unlimited library of spells to choose from would make them much more powerfull.
Chrono Nexus
10-17-06, 12:07 AM I only enforce the 100 gp/page rule on spells gained after normal class advancement.
The Simbul
10-17-06, 04:10 AM Technically you do not just pay 100gp per spell level for a new spell, the actual spell itself is also a cost that is derived from somewhere as well;

*To copy a spell from an NPC wizard's spellbook the standard fee is 50gp per spell level. In addition this also may require the NPC to have an improved attitude towards the PC (friendly or above), as it is unlikely that they are going to allow a complete stranger to peruse their spellbook.

*If you recieve a scroll or spellbook as part of treasure for an encounter, then that scroll or spellbook does count against your share of the treasure.

*Spells copied "for free" from an NPC ally are not truly free services, as having such an ally to begin with will entail other costs such as guild dues, apprentice tasks, or other past services or assistance to the NPC.

*Independently researched spells require you to have access to a library/labratory whose total collection has a value of 1,000gp or more, and requires 1 week of research and 1,000gp per spell level. Given the standard NPC demographics and the wealth limits of NPCs, you can rest assured that you should not be able to acquire every spell in the PHB simply by paying to copy it out of an NPC wizard's spellbook, and in the case of 9th level spells you shouldnt be able to acquire them from non-unique NPCs at all (as the highest level random NPC wizard in a standard community will be 16th level, as per the DMG).
Millennium
10-17-06, 07:03 AM 1) Keep in mind that the two freebie spells per level are exactly that: free. The 100gp-per-spell cost does not apply to these.

2) Two spells per level may not seem like much, but over 20 levels a wizard still ends up with more spells than a sorcerer does even if they only ever take the freebies. Taken in that light, charging 100gp to get even more spells starts to make more sense.
Chimaera2000
10-17-06, 07:16 AM Two words: Collegiate Wizard (Complete Arcane, p. 185 I believe). It gives you roughly double your free number of spells each level and gives you a +2 bonus on Knowledge (Arcana) to boot. It's as close to a must-have feat as I've ever seen for a wizard.

All the same, I do hope that they get rid of this ridiculous rule in 4th edition.
Dowjin
10-17-06, 07:50 PM Cold Napalm - Because Commoners don't go questing and gain experience like heroes(or villians) do. And because -most- commoners shouldn't have the INT for it. 11 being required for 1st level spells, and being that most commoners are sub-par.

In a metropolis, with a sufficient amount of people that meet the prerequisites, the economy -should- be a little cheaper concerning magic and other etcs because people have done just that. Studied some and sold they're works/ideas/productions.
Kimokeo
10-17-06, 08:56 PM I don't have the PHB II, so I'm referring to PHB I.

Page 179. Remember, the 100gp is per page, not per spell. A spell's level determines the number of pages it takes. A zero level cantrip takes up one page. As it was said before, a 9th level spell costs 900gp to scribe and takes up 9 pages.

The cost per page is half when duplicating an existing spellbook.

The spells the wizard gets each level is FREE. There is no cost for the spells at 1st level and every level thereafter. It is only for spells acquired outside of leveling and 1st level.

I agree about the selling the book and retiring. Think of it. The 1st level wizard has ALL the zero level spells. That's 100gp per page and one page per cantrip. Even at 1/2 price re-sell, that's a nifty profit for bumping off a 1st level wizard. Who cares about the sword and chain mail on the fighter. Give me the wizard's book.

19 zero level spells in the PHB. That's 1900gp. Two first level spells 200gp more. That's 2100gp worth in one book on a wizard at 1st. If sold at half-price, that 1050gp. Even a fighter, starting at 1st level and max gold isn't even worth that much.
CharlieRock
10-17-06, 09:36 PM It makes so little sense that it's not even funny. A level 1 mage has thousands of gold worth of rare ink and materials in their spellbook. Makes me wonder why commoners don't take a level of wizard so they sell the book and live comfortable for the rest of their lives...
You can't just wake up one day, go to the tavern, and go "hey, I'm taking one of wizard today". That book reflects the years that character spent as an apprentice under an experienced mentor (who likely had level1 ink laying around).
Cifer
10-18-06, 08:58 AM That book reflects the years that character spent as an apprentice under an experienced mentor (who likely had level1 ink laying around).

...or the two seconds of leveling up and multiclassing... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html)
CharlieRock
10-18-06, 11:25 AM :D that was funny,thanks.
But, the comic does point out that we are assuming ,should you multi-class wizard, that it is incorporating time studied in the past ("Oh, thats where I left my old Wizard's Apprentice Book. I've been looking for that"). If a DM feels like such a factor is absent he may disallow multi-classing into wizard. In such an instance sorcerer may be more IC than wizard. It all depends on the characters background.
Pegasos989
10-18-06, 01:51 PM :D that was funny,thanks.
But, the comic does point out that we are assuming ,should you multi-class wizard, that it is incorporating time studied in the past ("Oh, thats where I left my old Wizard's Apprentice Book. I've been looking for that"). If a DM feels like such a factor is absent he may disallow multi-classing into wizard. In such an instance sorcerer may be more IC than wizard. It all depends on the characters background.

Then again, why has elf wizard studied for a century longer than human counterpart to get level 1? If 10x as long-living races need 10x time to realize same stuff, they should get huge INT penalties. Sama goes for dwarves, etc...

Seriously though, those can hardly make sense. I just try to skip ingame logic in leveling and get back to actual playing fast. :D
CharlieRock
10-18-06, 02:12 PM Then again, why has elf wizard studied for a century longer than human counterpart to get level 1? If 10x as long-living races need 10x time to realize same stuff, they should get huge INT penalties. Sama goes for dwarves, etc...

Seriously though, those can hardly make sense. I just try to skip ingame logic in leveling and get back to actual playing fast. :D

Yeah, I often houserule the heck out of race lifespan. Otherwise why hasn't Elrunius the Elf have thousands of skill points and humans given a skill point penalty? You have to suspend disbelief somewhere or you can pull the game logic totally apart. ;)
wrecan
10-18-06, 04:54 PM If you make sure your Wizard maintains a Spellcraft check modifier (ie, ranks + Int modifier) at least as high as the highest spell level he can cast, he can take 10 to memorize any spell he can cast from any used spellbook.

This means you don't have to bother transcribing spells from captured spellbooks. Just hang on to the old spellbook.

And maintain lots and lots of scrolls. Scrolls are cheap, particularly if you scribe them, and they count like extra spell points.

Also, a blessed book costs 12,500 gp, which is the equivalent of 125 spell levels. By the time you have 125 spell levels you want to inscribe, you're probably tenth level. A blessed book makes sense only for a group of wizards to split the cost.

In my experience, I'm the only DM who actually plays by the inscribing cost rules (which is why you'll often hear people complain about how overpowered wizards are).
Cifer
10-18-06, 08:20 PM If you make sure your Wizard maintains a Spellcraft check modifier (ie, ranks + Int modifier) at least as high as the highest spell level he can cast, he can take 10 to memorize any spell he can cast from any used spellbook.
You might also attune to the spellbook with a spellcraftcheck against DC25+(highest spell level within) and use it just like yours from now on.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elysianhero 10-16-06, 05:39 PM	Can this be true? Could someone please explain why it costs 100 gp to put a new spell into a spell book? Isn't that a bit much for a wizard? I mean, they only get two spells per level otherwise! Does this make up for armor prices, etc.? Thanks again guys. All of you who have helped me has turned me into a decent DM (my players love me! I am sooo happy). =) Elysianhero
Artector 10-16-06, 05:54 PM	Ahem: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html I'm not sure how it affects balance, but I don't like wizards anyways... (they're cool, just not as cool as they could be)
Arcen 10-16-06, 05:57 PM	I think the PHB explains it as the cost of special materials (enchanted inks and whatnot) needed to properly copy the spell into your book. But yeah, it's pretty much for balance. Although it can make a wizard's life hell at early levels.
Ogmug 10-16-06, 05:58 PM	Can this be true? Could someone please explain why it costs 100 gp to put a new spell into a spell book? Isn't that a bit much for a wizard? I mean, they only get two spells per level otherwise! Does this make up for armor prices, etc.? Thanks again guys. All of you who have helped me has turned me into a decent DM (my players love me! I am sooo happy). =) Elysianhero Free spells (the two per level) do not cost the player to place in the book: Materials and Costs Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level. It is only for spells obtained in other methods (scrolls, other caster's , etc) and it is the cost of the materials (inks, etc)
Cifer 10-16-06, 06:35 PM	this make up for armor prices, etc.? That's what it does.
pierow37 10-16-06, 06:41 PM	Wizards are good for 1 thing. spechilzation. The 2 good htings to specilize in are necormancy, and illusion. you have a dread necromancer(hoh) as a base class as well as a bard(phb). so i'm under the firm impression that wizards are just morons. Be a sorcerr. Or be what i ALWAYS am. a bard!
Weaponbreaker 10-16-06, 06:59 PM	It hoses you early on but what I have found is that as your players gain more wealth and levels the hardest part is finding 4-5 days to input all the new spells you just bought.
Cold Napalm 10-16-06, 07:05 PM	It makes so little sense that it's not even funny. A level 1 mage has thousands of gold worth of rare ink and materials in their spellbook. Makes me wonder why commoners don't take a level of wizard so they sell the book and live comfortable for the rest of their lives...
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-16-06, 07:09 PM	Wizards are good for 1 thing. spechilzation. The 2 good htings to specilize in are necormancy, and illusion. you have a dread necromancer(hoh) as a base class as well as a bard(phb). so i'm under the firm impression that wizards are just morons. Be a sorcerr. Or be what i ALWAYS am. a bard! 1.Never take advice from someone that can't spell.(jk) 2. He is very, very wrong. Specializing as a wizard is pretty awful. If you happen to specialize it should not be Necromancy, Illusion is a decent choice but Divination is the best.(may change with CM). The costs are not very great if you get a Boccob's Blessed Book or just use secret page. The wizard class overall is WAY stronger then either the Bard, Sorceror or the Dread Necromancer. And finally a wizard cannot be a moron. Int is after all their primary stat.
Cifer 10-16-06, 07:25 PM	I wanted to say something, but Einvaldurinn took the words right out of my mouth. How dare you, Ein? Wizard is one of the strongest non-CoDzilla classes out there and stomps every bard and dread necro into the ground in a "fair fight" from midlevels on. He can't destroy Tokyo with radioactive fire, but at least do so with its suburbs.
Limousine_Liberal 10-16-06, 07:29 PM	Can this be true? Could someone please explain why it costs 100 gp to put a new spell into a spell book? Isn't that a bit much for a wizard? I mean, they only get two spells per level otherwise! Does this make up for armor prices, etc.? Thanks again guys. All of you who have helped me has turned me into a decent DM (my players love me! I am sooo happy). =) Elysianhero I believe its 100gp per spell level, so a 9th level spell coasts 900 gp (because it takes up 9 pages). In part this is a way to balance wizard against the less expensive sorcerer. In practice, what it means is that you must invest in Blessed Books, since it costs nothing to scribe spells into them (once you have the book, at least). If you use Blessed Books, the impact of the rule is not so bad.
Neerie 10-17-06, 12:01 AM	The gp price not only accounts for the (lack of) armor that other classes have to buy, it also serves to control the amount of spells one wizard put into their spellbook(s) in order to balance them with other caster classes. Because even if a wizard need to prepare spells in advance and has a limited number of spells per day, having an (almost) unlimited library of spells to choose from would make them much more powerfull.
Chrono Nexus 10-17-06, 12:07 AM	I only enforce the 100 gp/page rule on spells gained after normal class advancement.
The Simbul 10-17-06, 04:10 AM	Technically you do not just pay 100gp per spell level for a new spell, the actual spell itself is also a cost that is derived from somewhere as well; To copy a spell from an NPC wizard's spellbook the standard fee is 50gp per spell level. In addition this also may require the NPC to have an improved attitude towards the PC (friendly or above), as it is unlikely that they are going to allow a complete stranger to peruse their spellbook. If you recieve a scroll or spellbook as part of treasure for an encounter, then that scroll or spellbook does count against your share of the treasure. Spells copied "for free" from an NPC ally are not truly free services, as having such an ally to begin with will entail other costs such as guild dues, apprentice tasks, or other past services or assistance to the NPC. Independently researched spells require you to have access to a library/labratory whose total collection has a value of 1,000gp or more, and requires 1 week of research and 1,000gp per spell level. Given the standard NPC demographics and the wealth limits of NPCs, you can rest assured that you should not be able to acquire every spell in the PHB simply by paying to copy it out of an NPC wizard's spellbook, and in the case of 9th level spells you shouldnt be able to acquire them from non-unique NPCs at all (as the highest level random NPC wizard in a standard community will be 16th level, as per the DMG).
Millennium 10-17-06, 07:03 AM	1) Keep in mind that the two freebie spells per level are exactly that: free. The 100gp-per-spell cost does not apply to these. 2) Two spells per level may not seem like much, but over 20 levels a wizard still ends up with more spells than a sorcerer does even if they only ever take the freebies. Taken in that light, charging 100gp to get even more spells starts to make more sense.
Chimaera2000 10-17-06, 07:16 AM	Two words: Collegiate Wizard (Complete Arcane, p. 185 I believe). It gives you roughly double your free number of spells each level and gives you a +2 bonus on Knowledge (Arcana) to boot. It's as close to a must-have feat as I've ever seen for a wizard. All the same, I do hope that they get rid of this ridiculous rule in 4th edition.
Dowjin 10-17-06, 07:50 PM	Cold Napalm - Because Commoners don't go questing and gain experience like heroes(or villians) do. And because -most- commoners shouldn't have the INT for it. 11 being required for 1st level spells, and being that most commoners are sub-par. In a metropolis, with a sufficient amount of people that meet the prerequisites, the economy -should- be a little cheaper concerning magic and other etcs because people have done just that. Studied some and sold they're works/ideas/productions.
Kimokeo 10-17-06, 08:56 PM	I don't have the PHB II, so I'm referring to PHB I. Page 179. Remember, the 100gp is per page, not per spell. A spell's level determines the number of pages it takes. A zero level cantrip takes up one page. As it was said before, a 9th level spell costs 900gp to scribe and takes up 9 pages. The cost per page is half when duplicating an existing spellbook. The spells the wizard gets each level is FREE. There is no cost for the spells at 1st level and every level thereafter. It is only for spells acquired outside of leveling and 1st level. I agree about the selling the book and retiring. Think of it. The 1st level wizard has ALL the zero level spells. That's 100gp per page and one page per cantrip. Even at 1/2 price re-sell, that's a nifty profit for bumping off a 1st level wizard. Who cares about the sword and chain mail on the fighter. Give me the wizard's book. 19 zero level spells in the PHB. That's 1900gp. Two first level spells 200gp more. That's 2100gp worth in one book on a wizard at 1st. If sold at half-price, that 1050gp. Even a fighter, starting at 1st level and max gold isn't even worth that much.
CharlieRock 10-17-06, 09:36 PM	It makes so little sense that it's not even funny. A level 1 mage has thousands of gold worth of rare ink and materials in their spellbook. Makes me wonder why commoners don't take a level of wizard so they sell the book and live comfortable for the rest of their lives... You can't just wake up one day, go to the tavern, and go "hey, I'm taking one of wizard today". That book reflects the years that character spent as an apprentice under an experienced mentor (who likely had level1 ink laying around).
Cifer 10-18-06, 08:58 AM	That book reflects the years that character spent as an apprentice under an experienced mentor (who likely had level1 ink laying around). ...or the two seconds of leveling up and multiclassing... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html)
CharlieRock 10-18-06, 11:25 AM	:D that was funny,thanks. But, the comic does point out that we are assuming ,should you multi-class wizard, that it is incorporating time studied in the past ("Oh, thats where I left my old Wizard's Apprentice Book. I've been looking for that"). If a DM feels like such a factor is absent he may disallow multi-classing into wizard. In such an instance sorcerer may be more IC than wizard. It all depends on the characters background.
Pegasos989 10-18-06, 01:51 PM	:D that was funny,thanks. But, the comic does point out that we are assuming ,should you multi-class wizard, that it is incorporating time studied in the past ("Oh, thats where I left my old Wizard's Apprentice Book. I've been looking for that"). If a DM feels like such a factor is absent he may disallow multi-classing into wizard. In such an instance sorcerer may be more IC than wizard. It all depends on the characters background. Then again, why has elf wizard studied for a century longer than human counterpart to get level 1? If 10x as long-living races need 10x time to realize same stuff, they should get huge INT penalties. Sama goes for dwarves, etc... Seriously though, those can hardly make sense. I just try to skip ingame logic in leveling and get back to actual playing fast. :D
CharlieRock 10-18-06, 02:12 PM	Then again, why has elf wizard studied for a century longer than human counterpart to get level 1? If 10x as long-living races need 10x time to realize same stuff, they should get huge INT penalties. Sama goes for dwarves, etc... Seriously though, those can hardly make sense. I just try to skip ingame logic in leveling and get back to actual playing fast. :D Yeah, I often houserule the heck out of race lifespan. Otherwise why hasn't Elrunius the Elf have thousands of skill points and humans given a skill point penalty? You have to suspend disbelief somewhere or you can pull the game logic totally apart. ;)
wrecan 10-18-06, 04:54 PM	If you make sure your Wizard maintains a Spellcraft check modifier (ie, ranks + Int modifier) at least as high as the highest spell level he can cast, he can take 10 to memorize any spell he can cast from any used spellbook. This means you don't have to bother transcribing spells from captured spellbooks. Just hang on to the old spellbook. And maintain lots and lots of scrolls. Scrolls are cheap, particularly if you scribe them, and they count like extra spell points. Also, a blessed book costs 12,500 gp, which is the equivalent of 125 spell levels. By the time you have 125 spell levels you want to inscribe, you're probably tenth level. A blessed book makes sense only for a group of wizards to split the cost. In my experience, I'm the only DM who actually plays by the inscribing cost rules (which is why you'll often hear people complain about how overpowered wizards are).
Cifer 10-18-06, 08:20 PM	If you make sure your Wizard maintains a Spellcraft check modifier (ie, ranks + Int modifier) at least as high as the highest spell level he can cast, he can take 10 to memorize any spell he can cast from any used spellbook. You might also attune to the spellbook with a spellcraftcheck against DC25+(highest spell level within) and use it just like yours from now on.