Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dazzer 04-21-07, 02:05 PM	Hey there fellow DM's, It got me thinking the other day, while I was talking to my DM during the week OOC of course at a subways, that players who get access to something they can abuse, can, will, shouldn't but always do, abuse it to the maximum potential. This spurred from me OOC between games asking my DM if we had probably missed 10000 sidequests for windwalking...everywhere, to get around traps, monsters, anything that can't detect use, we skip. So I would like to see, the greatest player abuses. Please number them so as to keep track if possible! 1.) Wind-Walk - Players will abuse this spell, physically and mentally. 2.) Bag's of Holding - Players will find new uses for this item whenever possible. 3.) Wizard's Spellbooks - Yes, you'd be surprised, but when the rogue gets a hold of one, and instead of selling it begins charging wizards to copy the spell from it...he'll attempt to get infinite money this way... 4.) Pre-Magic-Item Compendium Spool of Endless Rope....Rope Shop anyone? 5.) Triad Spell - Cleric 5, allows a cleric to triple his 3rd level spellslots and lower...first time I've seen it was when I was a fighter...and our cleric spent 3 weeks triading all his spells of 3rd or lower...I would've complained but 75 healing spells per day just felt nice (level 11 party). 6.) Glibness - Lets just say, +30 to bluff, PC's vs. NPC's...bad idea 7.) Librarians - Must browse every book.....must get all the best everythings 8.) Sleight of Hand - Whenever a PC has it, they attempt to abuse it to all heaven...that PC always has the item the party needs because even if the Paladin has it...not for long...DC 20 to take a thing! No rules exist to stop this. 9.) NPC's - PC's Abuse these guys, constantly, it's like they are walking XP/Money/Story and aren't actually people.... 10.) OOC knowledge of abilities - Specific Case Only: NPC: GOODBYE! *walks up the wall, jumps off then teleports during the jump* PC: He can't do that DM, he runs out of actions after the jumping part...so he's just gonna land flat on his face... DM: Fine, he just casts teleport, next time I won't be nice in letting you know he has spider climb through interesting description. That's all I can think of for now. This isn't a worse player thread. The player himself may be awesome, but he may have found an abuse for some item, spell, or ability that just wasn't meant to be used that way. Reply Reply Reply!!!
twad 04-21-07, 04:20 PM	Just use a bit of common sense here... cmon.. 1.) Wind-Walk - Players will abuse this spell, physically and mentally. Oh please, the answer is easy. Just be more creative with your traps. Or add monsters around traps. Maybe add strong winds to "shake" the PCs a bit. Of just add an ennemy caster.. with dispel magic. Falling damage is nice.. ranged weapons are good too. 2.) Bag's of Holding - Players will find new uses for this item whenever possible. I dont see any problems with it. Limited air inside,very limited room and weignt capacity, pierce it and it is ruined. 3.) Wizard's Spellbooks - Yes, you'd be surprised, but when the rogue gets a hold of one, and instead of selling it begins charging wizards to copy the spell from it...he'll attempt to get infinite money this way... Explain who is the buyer, Is he a PC or NPC?? The wizzard does not have to buy from HIM. And there is no "infinite" gold in the buyers pockets. What prevent the buyer from simply killing the rogue to have the spellbook back? (Sound like it was stolen) 4.) Pre-Magic-Item Compendium Spool of Endless Rope....Rope Shop anyone? Dont know the specifics of this item, but you could decide that after a while, the ropes that are detached from the bundle start to decay rapidly. 5.) Triad Spell - Cleric 5, allows a cleric to triple his 3rd level spellslots and lower...first time I've seen it was when I was a fighter...and our cleric spent 3 weeks triading all his spells of 3rd or lower...I would've complained but 75 healing spells per day just felt nice (level 11 party). Dont know about this thing.. looks like a massive misunderstanding of that spell. 6.) Glibness - Lets just say, +30 to bluff, PC's vs. NPC's...bad idea Bluff isnt a 100% garanteed success roll (same with diplomacy). The situation and your actions must be.. favorable in some way with your roll. And does glibness apply only to speech-based rolls? Sometimes, the NPC just WONT budge, no matter what you say. Try as you want, try to get the kings treasury keys for free from the guards by making up some lie wont succeed if they are half competent. 7.) Librarians - Must browse every book.....must get all the best everythings What? If you mean players that use many DnD books, just dont use those you dont have/seen. And "best" is a very vague term. If the game have varying chalenges in all kinds of situations, being "best" at something X isnt a safe bet to be best at Y, Z and W. 8.) Sleight of Hand - Whenever a PC has it, they attempt to abuse it to all heaven...that PC always has the item the party needs because even if the Paladin has it...not for long...DC 20 to take a thing! No rules exist to stop this. Wrong. The opposite of SOH is the spot skill. And IIRC there is a roll to take the item itself and a roll to avoid detection by the owner of said item. So its pretty risky. And if the stolen item is big, and that the PC dont have anywhere/anything to hide it after theystole it.. then logical consequences happens. 9.) NPC's - PC's Abuse these guys, constantly, it's like they are walking XP/Money/Story and aren't actually people.... Then, as a DM, make sure those NPCs are "people" and not just XP/Money/Story. And if the PCs treat them badly, make sure that there is some high-level NPCs (make sure its credible, like the guard captain may be a 6 lvl fighter or something) around to stop them and show them the consequences of their actions. 10.) OOC knowledge of abilities - Specific Case Only: NPC: GOODBYE! *walks up the wall, jumps off then teleports during the jump* PC: He can't do that DM, he runs out of actions after the jumping part...so he's just gonna land flat on his face... DM: Fine, he just casts teleport, next time I won't be nice in letting you know he has spider climb through interesting description. The DM does as he wish if it adds to the overall fun of the game. And in my view, if something is possible bythe NPCs, the PCs can do it too (if they are creative)
Senevri 04-21-07, 05:04 PM	1.) Wind-Walk - Players will abuse this spell, physically and mentally. And, pray tell, what will you do after they gain Teleport? 2.) Bag's of Holding - Players will find new uses for this item whenever possible. And that's bad? There's just been talk of rewarding creativity... Remember, the players are SUPPOSED to win. 3.) Wizard's Spellbooks - Yes, you'd be surprised, but when the rogue gets a hold of one, and instead of selling it begins charging wizards to copy the spell from it...he'll attempt to get infinite money this way... Yes, like modern-day DVD rentals. A spellbook only holds so many spells, and there's only so many wizards don't already know. Also, there's only so many wizards. 4.) Pre-Magic-Item Compendium Spool of Endless Rope....Rope Shop anyone? ...And who's buying, again? If they're running a shop, they're not adventuring. This may lead, in worst case, to xp loss. If they're adventuring, there will be thieves... 5.) Triad Spell - Cleric 5, allows a cleric to triple his 3rd level spellslots and lower...first time I've seen it was when I was a fighter...and our cleric spent 3 weeks triading all his spells of 3rd or lower...I would've complained but 75 healing spells per day just felt nice (level 11 party). I see your slots and raise a wand of cure light wounds. 6.) Glibness - Lets just say, +30 to bluff, PC's vs. NPC's...bad idea Well, chances are: they'd have succeeded anyway, if it's reasonable, or if it's unreasonable, there's a hefty penalty. Remember, all that a successful bluff means, is that the target believes what they say. Remember, this is an OPPOSED CHECK vs. sense motive. Anyone living in a city should have ranks in sense motive. 7.) Librarians - Must browse every book.....must get all the best everythings ....Abuse? 8.) Sleight of Hand - Whenever a PC has it, they attempt to abuse it to all heaven...that PC always has the item the party needs because even if the Paladin has it...not for long...DC 20 to take a thing! No rules exist to stop this. Well, yes. Sleight of hand, if interpreted slavishly, will allow you to strip an opponent naked, mid-combat. "Stop that, it's silly!" 9.) NPC's - PC's Abuse these guys, constantly, it's like they are walking XP/Money/Story and aren't actually people.... Clearly we'll need to nerf/ban NPC's then. Oh, dear... 10.) OOC knowledge of abilities - Specific Case Only: NPC: GOODBYE! *walks up the wall, jumps off then teleports during the jump* PC: He can't do that DM, he runs out of actions after the jumping part...so he's just gonna land flat on his face... DM: Fine, he just casts teleport, next time I won't be nice in letting you know he has spider climb through interesting description. ...swift teleport? But, abusing OOC knowledge, now we're getting somewhere! ( Otherwise known as 'Metagaming' ) Reply Reply Reply!!! ...As you can see, there's some disagreement, here.
Zandolit 04-22-07, 02:12 PM	9.) NPC's - PC's Abuse these guys, constantly, it's like they are walking XP/Money/Story and aren't actually people.... Not everybody does this! I know some people who do, and it drives me crazy. It makes things so artificial if the characters seem to know somehow that the world is divided into PCs and NPCs, and act accordingly. Characters should just know that people are people, and shouldn't treat them badly just because they're run by the DM rather than another player. This is one of my gaming pet peeves... possibly my biggest pet peeve. To be fair, I may go too far in the other direction. For example, one time we were fighting a major battle and we knew there were going to be heavy losses. We knew (long story) that the NPC my character loved was going to die in this battle, and my character knew there was a very good chance she'd die too. She only had money to bring one person back from the dead, so she instructed a fellow party member to use the money to bring back the NPC. My character didn't end up dying (though she came very close and much of the party did die) so it never came to that, and I don't know if it would have all worked out somehow or not, but I would rather have had her die than save her own life instead of someone she cared about-- even if that someone was an NPC. But yeah, in general I think it really destroys the realism if the characters seem to know intuitively that the world is divided into PCs and NPCs.
matrix_king3 04-23-07, 06:41 PM	10) A Drow, Dragon Shaman...
Senevri 04-23-07, 06:51 PM	10) A Drow, Dragon Shaman... ...You're going to have to elaborate on that. I don't get it. Hmm. I wonder if I can think of anything... 11.) Relying on DM's kindness to stay alive.
Dm_Farble 04-23-07, 07:18 PM	7.) Librarians - Must browse every book.....must get all the best everythings I can be totally evil with this one. Allow them to use content from books you dont know of, familiarize yourself with the book, and come up with a method to counter it. Buy a book called, "Heroes of Horror." Then buy every montser manual and pit their worst nightmares against them. If they get to use every book, so do you. Have the heads of their loved ones rain from the sky... Good god I've turned into a Gygaxian... *evil grin*
PwnageLlama 04-23-07, 09:11 PM	Remember, the players are SUPPOSED to win. Win? DnD? Huh?
MethaneGranola 04-23-07, 09:48 PM	a lvl 1 lolth-touched orc barbarian
Nall_The_Azure_Guardian 04-23-07, 10:06 PM	12) monster templates I can do very scary things combining drow with vampires Then again, it makes the sun suck that much more As far as bags of holding go one of the guys I play with had a cute trick: He used the bone template and bone mages to generate an undead army the bone mages recursively controlled stronger and stronger bone mages until he could basically pull 20th lvl wizard skeletons out of a bag, they were tiny sized somethings but still had 20 lvls in wizard (i can't remember exactly it was three years ago) I have no idea how "legal" that was though and the DM blew the bag up right away
T3hB4k4 04-23-07, 10:18 PM	During my younger years as a DM I tried running a 3.0 campaign at 15th level...very very bad idea. Needless to say my players began play with ridiculous scores etc. so I called an audit and found the reason why... Part of their gold had gone to a Polymorph Other spell casting, they became Solars with no LA for I think it was 280 gp.
Nall_The_Azure_Guardian 04-23-07, 10:20 PM	That was such a great day. One of our better tricks
Shatari 04-23-07, 10:23 PM	Personally, I don't mind when the players come up with a cheap strategy or two. Anything they can come up with, I can thwart fairly and easily. I tend to wait until their getting bored with the tactic (no sense in spoiling their fun), and then I force them to do something else for most of the time. It encourages creativity, and it makes them feel more important if their enemies are constantly trying to spy on them to discover their favorite tactics.