Post/Author/DateTime	Post
11d7 02-20-05, 10:51 PM	1. Being canceled out 2. Being damaged at the subatomic level (disintagrate) 3. Being damaged at the cellular level (Inflict spells, and a will save?) 4. Effect that subverts Immune systems (lots of posions and desesie) 5. Your brain telling your body your dead (Phantasmal Killers should give a will save but not a fort save) 5. Being hit by an onmidirectional blast of energy (Fireball, not having to move from your current location is the problem I have, if its fire/heat just filling a 20ft radius sphere that includes inside of you, its not a expanding ball of fire anymore like in 2nd edition, it hits everwhere at once so it cant be blocked by dropping to the ground or covering vitals.) Now everyone else post what they think should be on this list
allenchan 02-20-05, 10:53 PM	You dont think those should have saving thows? But if they didnt have saving throws they'd be horribly broken, so of course I think they should have saving throws. :confused: Oh. Are you talking about logic? Logic has no place in dnd.
Dunelord 02-20-05, 11:08 PM	1. Being canceled out 2. Being damaged at the subatomic level (disintagrate) 3. Being damaged at the cellular level (Inflict spells, and a will save?) 4. Effect that subverts Immune systems (lots of posions and desesie) 5. Your brain telling your body your dead (Phantasmal Killers should give a will save but not a fort save) 5. Being hit by an onmidirectional blast of energy (Fireball, not having to move from your current location is the problem I have, if its fire/heat just filling a 20ft radius sphere that includes inside of you, its not a expanding ball of fire anymore like in 2nd edition, it hits everwhere at once so it cant be blocked by dropping to the ground or covering vitals.) Now everyone else post what they think should be on this list Being canceled out meaning what? Who said that disintagrate did damage at a subatomic level? Why wouldn't you get a save to things that subvert the immune system? Their are countless exsamples of diseases that have killed some people but not others, same for posion. Yeah your right on Phantasmal Killers. I could MAYBE see it if you go with the logic you always see the stuff and it's just can you take the shock but I still agree. Fireball isn't an onmidirectional blast of energy, it spreads out from a starting point which does give you a split second to cover your most important body parts so a save for 1/2 makes sence.
ShadowDragon8685 02-20-05, 11:08 PM	Logic has lots of places in D&D. Mostly, it's saying that if you're not a wizard after 7th level, you need to find a new profession. :) And for the record, I've always described Fireballs as explosions, not omnidirectional spheres of flame.
11d7 02-20-05, 11:18 PM	Oh. Are you talking about logic? Logic has no place in dnd. Maybe in your 'games' (and I use that term as a dirogitory) but I dont do things that way and neither should anyone else not even for the sake of 'fun'. Things have to happen logically given the parmaiters of the game world. Not by some abbitrarry system. Balence is for children who cant do things properly and need help along the way. A real gamer can play in a 'unbalenced' world where alot of things have clear and overwhelming advantages due to their nature. My dragons do what more damaged based on weight dropping onto the target, more than 15 times more thean their attacks in the book. This is the same of any monsters I use.
angryman 02-20-05, 11:29 PM	Maybe in your 'games' (and I use that term as a dirogitory) but I dont do things that way and neither should anyone else not even for the sake of 'fun'. Things have to happen logically given the parmaiters of the game world. Not by some abbitrarry system. Balence is for children who cant do things properly and need help along the way. A real gamer can play in a 'unbalenced' world where alot of things have clear and overwhelming advantages due to their nature. My dragons do what more damaged based on weight dropping onto the target, more than 15 times more thean their attacks in the book. This is the same of any monsters I use. Funny, you're being derogatory and you can't even spell the word. How about learning some English, then some manners, then posting next time, eh? It's only polite. Try also to construct your sentences in a way that makes some sense, and also, perhaps even throw in a point. Try www.dictionary.com for your spelling needs. * If you're not a native speaker of English or you are not yet in high school, then your English is OK, but you still need to learn manners. Thank you. :teach:
Dotac 02-20-05, 11:30 PM	6. Having your weapon/ armor affected by spells (maybe a reflex, but if you're "attending" an item... it shouldn't get your will/fort save)
ShadowDragon8685 02-21-05, 12:11 AM	Most objects don't have to make will saving throws, anyway. :)
Reinforcements 02-21-05, 12:28 AM	1.) What does that mean? 2 and 3.) You seem to have an impressive amount of knowledge on the intricate scientific workings of MAGIC. 4.) What Dunelord said. 5.) A point. Although you do make a Will save to disbelieve the illusion, and the Fortitude save would be representing a sort of "save or have a freaking heart attack." Also there's an issue of balance, and it would be sort of wonky to make two Will saves in a row. 6.) Meh. Mostly it's a balance issue, but I think you have to imagine that the blast is not actually completely omnidirectional or uniform, and that by dodging you can avoid the brunt of the fire.
Vharuck 02-21-05, 12:31 AM	11d7, first off, chill out. Nobody here will ever take you seriously if you keep up. You could say that the Earth revolves around the sun, but if you make fun of people doing it, chances are some people will just not listen/care/believe. Second off, it's magic. Since it's magic that's Disintegrating me, I really don't find it too much of a suspension of disbelief that my ability to take a hit would help. Second off, the entire idea of saving throws past like 5th level are illogical. Fighting off horrible poisons? Dodging 50 some odd darts shot by a trap? Want to play pure logic? Go and find a hidden temple in RL and start delving. If you want a no-save Disintegrate, make one that's a higher level spell. Poof! Balance is kept and your logic is appeased and we can all go on living.
The_Dark_One 02-21-05, 12:32 AM	Funny, you're being derogatory and you can't even spell the word. angryman beat me to it. Pointing that out would have been so much fun... :weep:
mercurywyrm 02-21-05, 12:48 AM	Dodging a "the ceiling block falls on you" trap, without leaving your square! Getting tossed around by telekinesis (Will save?)
Count Arioch the 28th 02-21-05, 01:34 AM	Logic has lots of places in D&D. Mostly, it's saying that if you're not a wizard after 7th level, you need to find a new profession. :) That's funny, you said "Wizard" when you meant to say "Druid", or possibly "Cleric". :smirk:
HomebrewedMonster 02-21-05, 02:07 AM	Yea, because being able to channel magical powers that let you cast spells at huge mythical flying reptiles that breath fire is logical. Its a fantasy world, when's the last time you saw God grant a priest cure light wounds?
Dunelord 02-21-05, 02:25 AM	Maybe in your 'games' (and I use that term as a dirogitory) but I dont do things that way and neither should anyone else not even for the sake of 'fun'. Things have to happen logically given the parmaiters of the game world. Not by some abbitrarry system. Balence is for children who cant do things properly and need help along the way. A real gamer can play in a 'unbalenced' world where alot of things have clear and overwhelming advantages due to their nature. My dragons do what more damaged based on weight dropping onto the target, more than 15 times more thean their attacks in the book. This is the same of any monsters I use. Man you just described real life. I think the point of D & D is to have fun. If you dig that kind of stuff great, but I for one would walk out on a DM who just gave a dragon 15 times damage for no extra XP. No the game will not always make sence BUT when dealing with Magic it's hard to say that their shouldn't be saving throws. I mean it makes just as much sence to be able to avoid most of a fireball as it does to be able to CAST a fireball. I say this with no intent of disrespect inteneded at you 11d7 but mayhap D & D isn't the game your looking for. There are other games that are might be better for what you are looking for - Rifts comes to mind as does RollMaster. Those are both games where you can be a good gamer, and have to deal with the fact that if your a (Rifts) 20th leve Victim a 1st level Dragon is just cooler then you, and always will be, and in RollMaster a Wizard can die from falling on the street after killing a insanely powerful Dragon. "D & D is a game of your imagination in which you participate in thrilling adventures and dangerous quests by taking on the role of a hero..." PHB, page 4 second paragraph. A hero is defined as "1. In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods. 2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war. 3. A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine. See Synonyms at celebrity. 4. The principal male character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation. 5. Chiefly New York City. See submarine. See Regional Note at submarine." you can go to http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hero to see it for yourself. NONE of these has to do with being a good gamer. I'm not saying that being a good gamer is BAD mind you but it is not the point of D & D. I for one think that the job of the runner isn't to rework the game to make sence but to use the rules that exsist to make sence. The fort saves for poisions and disease could represent your immune system being able to fight things off, fireball representing you avoiding a wave of fire not being surronded by a wave of fire. Balance isn't a bad thing. Playing Pets: the Shedding isn't a bad thing. Not for me mind you (Pets that is) but not bad. If you and your group have fun with your style GREAT but that doesn't make it any better. You also rob yourself of adult discourse when you take to saying things about others.
The_Dark_One 02-21-05, 02:31 AM	(and I use that term as a dirogitory) Also, derogatory is not a noun, its an adjective). The more you know...
FriendoftheDork 02-21-05, 02:56 AM	realism? Gosh, this is an old discussion. Let me try to summerize my thoughts: In D&D, one must accept some illogical rules for the sake of game balance. If you don't, the game will not work very well. But on the other side, many of the D&D rules are made and based on RL facts and realism. Why? To make the game more believable to the players. That's why there are rules for fatigue, carrying capacity, environment dangers etc. Without these rules the game would be more artifical and less logical and believable. So when you say realism has no place in D&D because magic exist... well you're wrong. Magic is not realistic, but it is believeable (actually alot of people in RL believies in it). When the game designers decided the balance of realism and playability in D&D they focused on the latter compared to other RPGs, but did not forget the former. Since 1ed the game has evovled to contain more rules, many of which makes the game more realistic. Wasn't carrying capacity an optional rule even in 2nd ed? Well, back to the original topic, I don't think removing the saves from that list would improve the game in any way. Ok, I like 3.0 disintegrate for flavour reason, but it was the most powerful 6th lvl spell there is. And I don't think removing save from inflict spell will unbalance them that much. A shocking grasp CL 5 deals 5-25 damage while a inflict light deals either 6-13 OR 3-6 damage. The wizard spell is still superior (as it should be). A cl 7 inflict critical wounds deals 11-39 damage or 5-19 damage... hmm that is actually quite much compared to wizard spell of same level, yet does it make it better than spell of equal level?
11d7 02-21-05, 11:40 AM	Ok I have two things to say to you: 1. I when said realistic I ment given the paramiters of the world so your BS out dragons flying and magic is not a valid point. Magic isnt some 'it just works out in the end' thing, it has set rules and ways of reacting, the proff of this is found in the need of spesific verbal, stomatic and material components for spells and years of training needed to control it (in the case of some classes becuase I know if i dont spesificly say it people will bring up sorcrers). If someone is being converted into dust/ash (via disintagrate) it happens one of 2 ways: They are ripped appart at the subatomic level becuase the nature of the effect or converted into energy and reconverted into matter as ash with loss of mass (not possable). Being canceld out mean being erased from existance with no trace remaining. Anothering that should not give a save is teleport (a will save?) becuase the space around and your occuping you is being moved to another location, no matter how hard you think your not going to beable to stop the effect on you but not the person bringing you, your being moved and thats it, you dont get a will save for being bullrushed, its the same thing exept with teleport its either space being moved or energy converson, you cant get out of either in most cases, unless its a spell that stopped teleportation, in that case it can stop it, not you thinking. 2. Why is it as soon as someone doesn't share your beliefs you always insult their english? I've noticed this many times before.
Aliquid 02-21-05, 12:09 PM	1. I when said realistic I ment given the paramiters of the world so your BS out dragons flying and magic is not a valid point. Magic isnt some 'it just works out in the end' thing, it has set rules and ways of reacting, the proff of this is found in the need of spesific verbal, stomatic and material components for spells and years of training needed to control it (in the case of some classes becuase I know if i dont spesificly say it people will bring up sorcrers).True, in D&D magic follows certain rules, but magic does not follow any sort of logical or consistent set of rules. Somatic and verbal components are simply there for the sake balancing and for the sake of flavor. D&D consistently contradicts the laws of physics (even with simple things like falling damage). Magic is a complete break away from the laws of physics… heck, it doesn’t even follow the law of conservation of energy. 2. Why is it as soon as someone doesn't share your beliefs you always insult their english? I've noticed this many times before.There are multiple reasons this is the case. 1. A debate is typically an intellectual dual between people, and it is hard to respect someone intellectually when they make blatant spelling mistakes (unless English isn’t their first language) 2. Even if you are a bad speller by nature, that doesn’t mean you lack intellectual capacity. There are many highly intelligent people out there who have challenges with spelling. That is what ‘spell check’ is for. It is very easy to take your post and run it through a spell check. Not doing so shows a lack of effort put into the post. 3. If you are not willing to take the effort to check your spelling and grammar before posting, then you are not taking the post seriously. A huge part of a good debate is effectively expressing your opinion (not just having an opinion). If people find it difficult to read your post, then you are not expressing your self effectively.
Nomad4life 02-21-05, 12:12 PM	They are ripped appart at the subatomic level becuase the nature of the effect or converted into energy and reconverted into matter as ash with loss of mass (not possable). Being canceld out mean being erased from existance with no trace remaining. Anothering that should not give a save is teleport (a will save?) becuase the space around and your occuping you is being moved to another location, no matter how hard you think your not going to beable to stop the effect on you but not the person bringing you, your being moved and thats it, you dont get a will save for being bullrushed, its the same thing exept with teleport its either space being moved or energy converson, you cant get out of either in most cases I’m sorry, but this just needs to be said: Dungeons and Dragons is a GAME. It is –NOT- a simulation. If you try to run the game as a physics problem, there will be consequences. One of these consequences will be that you feel the “need” to break certain spells and conventions of the game that should best be left alone. You will be left with a hybrid mess that is part fantasy, and part math book. Ultimately, you will have a GREAT deal of trouble convincing anyone else to “play” such an anomaly. Believe me, over the years I have seen countless attempts to turn various RPGs into uber realistic science formulas. These schemes always inevitably fail, because the end result is simply no fun to play, and no two people are going to agree on how to LOGICALLY approach issues of MAGIC. Just some advice you might keep in mind.
Thoronmir 02-21-05, 02:12 PM	2. Why is it as soon as someone doesn't share your beliefs you always insult their english? I've noticed this many times before.Personally, I only do this when someone doesn’t share my belief that proper spelling and grammar enhance effective communication. As the others have noted, if English isn’t your native tongue, say so and we’ll cut you some slack. Either I’ve missed the point of this thread or you’ve missed the point of the game. Perhaps we’re both being obtuse. The rules of physics only apply to the extent the RAW (or the DM, if he houserules a lot of issues) decides they apply. I can’t believe anyone really spends time trying to decipher the scientific basis of a Disintegration spell … it’s a magic spell in a fantasy game! Try to maintain a little perspective. As for your comment,Balence is for children who cant do things properly and need help along the way. A real gamer can play in a 'unbalenced' world where alot of things have clear and overwhelming advantages due to their nature.This is perhaps the most asinine thing I’ve ever read on this Board (and, yes, I mean that as a derogation, to be used in a derogatory fashion to derogate your comment). I’d be curious to know how your players would feel if you removed the “crutch” of balance and let the PCs all start off at different levels … and make them use different rules to create their characters, since consistency in PC creation exists solely for the sake of balance. Surely your players would prefer that you rid them of the “arbitrary system” of keeping PC levels and abilities “balanced.” Heck, next time you meet, send an entire flight of overweight Dragons after them. After all, balance between the PCs and their opponents is for “games” played by “children.” Since “balance” is such a sin, one thing we might agree on is that “imbalanced” seems a very apt word to describe your game.
Kittencaboodle 02-21-05, 02:32 PM	Dodging a "the ceiling block falls on you" trap, without leaving your square! It's a 5 foot square! And when you consider the fact that I am 5'2, that's a lot of foom to dodge in!
Vharuck 02-21-05, 03:54 PM	Ok I have two things to say to you: 1. I when said realistic I ment given the paramiters of the world so your BS out dragons flying and magic is not a valid point. Magic isnt some 'it just works out in the end' thing, it has set rules and ways of reacting, the proff of this is found in the need of spesific verbal, stomatic and material components for spells and years of training needed to control it (in the case of some classes becuase I know if i dont spesificly say it people will bring up sorcrers). If someone is being converted into dust/ash (via disintagrate) it happens one of 2 ways: They are ripped appart at the subatomic level becuase the nature of the effect or converted into energy and reconverted into matter as ash with loss of mass (not possable). Being canceld out mean being erased from existance with no trace remaining. Then say that there is a middle step. The one is which magical power must overcome a person's fortitude to begin the effect. Anothering that should not give a save is teleport (a will save?) becuase the space around and your occuping you is being moved to another location, no matter how hard you think your not going to beable to stop the effect on you but not the person bringing you, your being moved and thats it, you dont get a will save for being bullrushed, its the same thing exept with teleport its either space being moved or energy converson, you cant get out of either in most cases, unless its a spell that stopped teleportation, in that case it can stop it, not you thinking. Teleport was never explained as to how it works in D&D, so using an argument for your interpretation of how it works is pretty much moot. I mean, magic is not a thing wizards create, but shape. The wizard is willing magic to force you to go someplace else. If your will is stronger, it can act like a shield that the magic hits and breaks apart harmlessly against. By the way, teleporting large objects isn't possible either unless you switch the space you're teleporting with an equivalent space of where you're teleporting it to. Otherwise, you're teleporting into existing matter (air) and either setting off a nuclear explosion, being torn apart by the strong atomic force of the air and your body expanding to equilibrium, or you'll break a fundamental law of physics in which two objects exist in the same place at the same time. Magic does not follow physics. Using physics to describe *how* magic works is simply irrational, as magic is basically the mystical way humans came up with to circumvent the laws of physics. Physics only apply to magic *after* the magic's done with it, like in the case of Minor Creation or some such spells.
11d7 02-21-05, 03:57 PM	Heck, next time you meet, send an entire flight of overweight Dragons after them. After all, balance between the PCs and their opponents is for “games” played by “children.” I keep a maxium of 2-3 types of each dragon type on any world I create. I have most powerful creatures be next to uniqie on the game world and most are not native to the world they are on (I dont use the planes, I use differnt planets in diffent systems with dragons being one of the space farring races, along with Humans, Dwarves, Goblinoids and many others, you will never play one of them unless its in my future campaign). The situation you discribed would never happen in one of my games (well almost never). I dont think balence is a Sin however I dont like how it is used. I Balence things make setting paramiters in which things can happen in the world by making sure I know who controls what and has acceess to what reasorces. Balence to make sure things dont happen should not be in the rules It should be in the nature game world itself. Sure a level 15 Wizard (next to impossable to find) NPC could go around destroying cites and no one would stop him becuase the highest level NPC will usally only be lv. 9 in a metropolis but they dont becuase I make sure the single level 15 Wizard in the world is not like that. Another example is I make posion readily avalable to anyone with PC levels of wealth and the posions have much higher saves however you know why every warrior in the land doesnt go around with posion weapons? Some of them are honourable, the ones that arn't or dont care either way will still use the posions but still not always because if they are stopped by the guard in posseion of some types they will be fined or worse becuase say that posion was just found in part of a murder of the local magistrate and now the person would be suspect. Thats how I balanece things not by making them expensive and weak. One of the reasons I think magic should be more powerful the way I have said is becuase the amout of effort it is to learn spells in my game. for someone research a level 6 spell they need to make a DC 36 Knowledge (relivent type of magic) check every week for 12 months working 8 hours a day each day. One failed check doesnt ruin the spell, it just addes another week to the end of the research. This makes most casters reliant on guilds for research and creatures another set of RP rules a person playing a caster has to follow to make sure they dont do certian thing that would be so 'game breaking. In conculsion I belive things should not be balenced in mechanics but the world in which the game is being played should be the determaning factor to weither or an unbalenced thing can happen.
tarkin 02-21-05, 04:09 PM	5. Being hit by an onmidirectional blast of energy (Fireball, not having to move from your current location is the problem I have, if its fire/heat just filling a 20ft radius sphere that includes inside of you, its not a expanding ball of fire anymore like in 2nd edition, it hits everwhere at once so it cant be blocked by dropping to the ground or covering vitals.) That is just plain not reading the rules. Fireballs are NOT omnidirection filling a 20ft radius. They are and always have been an expanding EXPLOSION. Fireball Evocation [Fire] Level: Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) Area: 20-ft.-radius spread Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can’t see. Spreads are explosions. The word "burst" actually refers to what you think a Spread is - it burst on the entire area evenly and instantly, instead of spreading from a starting point - i.e. an omni-directional blast hat hits everywhere at once. Read the rules, before you post.
HomebrewedMonster 02-21-05, 04:46 PM	Well I'm glad that you have practiced magic and know how powerful it is, its nice to know that someone in this world knows its true power. Screw balence.
Nom 02-21-05, 10:21 PM	Opening question: which "realism"? Dramatic realism is different to "real life". Ever noticed how "main characters" get wounded but struggle on which "extras" just die. Or the same applies to their car / ship / tank / plane? Or how the heroes are only shown interviewing the 3 guys that are plot significant, and not the other 47 boring interviews? In dramatic realism, the amount of attention that gets paid to you is directly proportional to your role in the story. D&D (and most RPGs) seeks dramatic realism rather than "simulation". Beyond that, let's consider area effects and reflex saves. A grenade goes off. One guy is standing right next to it and walks away. Another is on the far side of the room and is killed by massive shrapnel wounds. A combination of luck and agility can mean that two people in proximity to an area attack can suffer wildly differing effects. In game, this is simulated by the Reflex save. And what of magic? You seem to be assuming that magic is a purely physical phenomenum. Yet the rules allow Will saves for many different things. The game model is plainly that "living creatures" are treated differently from the perspective of magic, and thus can "resist" many magics purely by force of Will. If a creature does not wish to be affected, it's a test of their will against the caster's power. Magic can also be extremely subjective. Consider invisbility: whether an action voids invisibility is not based on the physical properties of the action, but on the intentional properties (was it targeted at an enemy?). Obviously magic is not a simple physical force.
Vanigo 02-21-05, 11:13 PM	If someone is being converted into dust/ash (via disintagrate) it happens one of 2 ways: They are ripped appart at the subatomic level becuase the nature of the effect or converted into energy and reconverted into matter as ash with loss of mass (not possable).Because God knows being ripped apart at the atomic level, the molecular level, or the cellular level would have completely different effects, right? And a polymorph-type effect is just plain absurd; anyone can see that. Being canceld out mean being erased from existance with no trace remaining.Oh, you mean like what happens when you touch a sphere of annihilation? Well, you know, you kinda don't get a save against that. Tell me, when you watch Star Trek, do you complain about all the technobabble not making sense? You'd be absolutely right in that it doesn't make sense, but you'd also be missing the point entirely. It's not supposed to make sense; it's supposed to make the story work. If the story demands that the Enterprise's transporters be foiled by an electrical storm, the Enterprise's transporters are going to be foiled by that electrical storm, and to Hell with whether it makes any logical sense or not. The story demands that you get a fortitude save against disintegrate. It's just no fun when you can automatically kill anything, and it's even less fun when anything can automatically kill you. Quite aside from that, how can you possibly know anything about how magic works? In the case of Star Trek technobabble, you can extrapolate from real science and say, "That doesn't make sense, because the Law of Thus-and-such says thus-and-such." You can't do that with magic. All you can do with magic is throw meaningless theories around. If someone disagrees with your theory, there's not a damn thing you can do to convince them, because there's no real magic you can point to and say, "See, this evidence supports my theory." Any argument about the logic of magic (or the lack thereof) is, unless you've actually discovered magic and just aren't telling anyone, inherently meaningless. Of course, that's just for magic in general. There is evidence about how D&D magic works. It's in the various rulebooks, and especially in the PHB. The evidence there constitutes unassailable proof that you get a fortitude save against disintegrate. Therefore, any theory of D&D magic that predicts that you would not get a fortitude save against disintegrate is wrong. It doesn't matter how beautiful a theory it is, if it doesn't match observed evidence, it's wrong wrong wrong and all the logic in the world can't make it right.
allenchan 02-21-05, 11:29 PM	This recent WotC article addresses some of the things this thread is discussing: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/bs/20050218a
Lord Gwydion 02-22-05, 01:55 AM	1. I when said realistic I ment given the paramiters of the world so your BS out dragons flying and magic is not a valid point. Magic isnt some 'it just works out in the end' thing, it has set rules and ways of reacting, the proff of this is found in the need of spesific verbal, stomatic and material components for spells and years of training needed to control it (in the case of some classes becuase I know if i dont spesificly say it people will bring up sorcrers). 11d7, do you realize that you just undermined your entire arguement here? D&D magic is "realistic" within the parameters of the world. The parameters of magic in the default world for D&D are spelled out in the PHB. Guess what, those parameters include saving throws, not just "requiring specific verbal, somatic and material components." As you say, "magic has set rules and ways of reacting" and those include saving throws for Disintegrate spells, Teleports, Inflict spells, etc. Those parameters do not include the Theory of Conservation of Energy or other advanced real world physics. Heck, even the parameters of basic physics in the default game world are changed (terminal velocity deals 10d6 damage no matter your weight/mass, etc.). Now, you're well within your rights as a DM to change the parameters within your own game world. But I wouldn't go trying to trump the rules as illogical when, as you point out, they set up their own internal logic system for how magic applies in the default game world.
Ma'ElKoth 02-22-05, 02:17 AM	Is he even playing DnD? Sure a level 15 Wizard (next to impossable to find) NPC could go around destroying cites With what? Horrid Wilting? Sure, you can destroy a city as a 15th level wizard. It may take a few months, unless of course the subatomic disintegration causes a chain reaction that destroys entire cities in an omnidirectional blast of destruction and the 9th level NPC in the metropolis can't help you because the world nature doesn't work like that. There is no reasoning with this guy. He's just trolling, plain and simple. But on the other hand, if you sort of imagine his posts being read by Oglethorpe (the spiky yellow alien from Aqua Teen Hunger Force ) they become downright hilarious.
HomebrewedMonster 02-22-05, 03:18 AM	This recent WotC article addresses some of the things this thread is discussing: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/bs/20050218a Good article allen, thanks for posting.