Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johniemi 11-15-07, 06:36 PM	One of our group's players wants to play a 13-year old "brat" who has been brought up by thieves. The class is naturally rogue, but how could I tweak his character so that it is not totally underpowered compared to the rest of the group? I am afraid he will become frustrated with his character as, at this point, I think I really have no choice but to impose at least a -2 age penalty on all ability scores due to his young age (still underdeveloped motor and mental skills etc.)... What should I do to make the character not so underpowered compared to the others? -John
FrostWolf 11-15-07, 06:42 PM	I can only see bad things in the future for both the character, and this thread... Anyways, All classes have starting ages. Before then, your an expert,commoner, warrior, or adept. That is just my view. But if you DO allow a 13 year old character, I got an idea for a six month old psionic half orc I wanna try some time.:plotting: :evillaugh :schemes: :rofl:
Pezz 11-15-07, 06:43 PM	How about instead of adding in a -2 age penalty, make him 1 size smaller due to not being fully developed. that penalizes his strength, but it augments it with a few bonuses, and as he ages he grows up to a normal size. so, being human, he would be a small character instead of medium, netting a -2 to strength, but +1 to AC and the ability to squeeze into smaller spaces. it would also force him to use appropriately sized weapons for a 13 year old kid.
Malcaor 11-15-07, 07:08 PM	I agree with Pezz. This could be an interesting character concept, and if you feel it won't take away from your campaign you should allow it.
Crimson_Concerto 11-15-07, 07:13 PM	I honestly don't see any particular reason to implement any mechanical effects at all. In other words, if he wants to play a 13-year-old, so what? It doesn't need any mechanical effects.
Dragonsblood 11-15-07, 07:16 PM	I'd be more worried about him wanting to role play a "brat." What a nightmare for the other PCs...why would they even want to adventure with him? Are they running a daycare while they save the world? Just say no.
larry_the_titan 11-15-07, 08:10 PM	13 yrs old, hmmm I wonder I assume you mean human from the way you are putting it. If the player is just doing it to be childish tell them to pick between Gnomes, Halflings, or Kenders they are all Small and can be prank centered. If he just wants to play a younger character because of the age give him a Half-Orc or a Killoren both are capable of being playable around that age. Killoren are considered Adults at 10 years old and are fey. But if the player just want to play a Child let him play a child give him no bonuses make him limited in Max skills per level. Starting Skills should be (Class Skill+int)*2 with max skills being Character Level +2. If the player insists on playing a kid then he is going to play a kid. If he wants to play a Adventurer he will take something with in the rules. Other limits you should apply give him only half of his first HD apply a -2 to Str Con Wis and Cha. Just remember any kid wouldn't really be strong enough or skilled enough to be an adventurer and should be played as such.
SkyOdin 11-15-07, 08:50 PM	In d20 Modern, any character over the age of 12 technically has a normal, unmodified stat array. In other words, the same stats as an adult. So there is precedent in WotC d20 products for giving the character no stat penalties. So, I suggest that you stat him up like any other PC and leave it at that. It is much simpler that way. There is plenty of precedent for young heroes in fiction, so I can understand why he would want to do it.
Mock26 11-15-07, 09:07 PM	See if he would be OK with playing a "normal" age character but who is extremely youthful looking and could pass for a 13-year old child.
MareltEkiran 11-15-07, 11:05 PM	See if he would be OK with playing a "normal" age character but who is extremely youthful looking and could pass for a 13-year old child. To be honest, what would be the difference between that and actually playing a 13 year old character? Quite frankly, I don't see why everything that happens in the game should be expressed in game mechanics. If your player wants to play a 13 year old, then just let him... He's not asking for anything unreasonable, so just ask yourself... "If I don't concern myself with stat adjustments, will everyone enjoy the game more?". If the answer to that question is "yes", then there's the solution to your problem. I'm actually playing a Dread Necromancer who is a nine year old human girl, who obtained her powers from accidentally being buried alive after her family got killed. All we did in terms of game mechanics is take a human and drop her one size category, by the rules of the Monster Manual (and lowering her speed to 20 ft., even though that wasn't specified). No need to fret over the game stats more than that.
pigknight 11-15-07, 11:31 PM	So you guys are saying a 13-year old is 4' and a 15' is 5'?
Mock26 11-16-07, 01:10 AM	To be honest, what would be the difference between that and actually playing a 13 year old character? The difference would be that the character could pass himself off as a child without having to deal with any of the penalties of being a child. It would also be great for sneaking around a city.
CryoSilver 11-16-07, 01:19 AM	What penalties for being a child? When I was 13, I was 3 inches shorter than I am now and maybe 20 pounds lighter. I might have been a little stupider back then, but there ought not be any physical penalties, especially when wimpy elves don't have a strength penalty.
Novacat 11-16-07, 01:30 AM	No ability score adjustments needed. Thirteen-year-olds are on the brink of physical maturity, and their mental skills are, while unrefined, often faster and more adaptive than an adult's. It all balances itself out, with no need to fret over mechanical alterations. If anything, maybe give him a -2 to Intimidate and Knowledge checks, but a +2 on Escape Artist and Hide checks. At level 5, whether enough time has passed or not, tell him his character has matured enough from the harsh life of adventuring that he loses the bonuses and penalties, and becomes a normal human adult.
wrecan 11-16-07, 09:20 AM	Just say he developed early. There doesn't need to be a mechanical drawback for being 13. That said, this sort of character concept always gives me the willies because it's a sure sign of someone who wants to be a drama hog. Adventuring parties are teams and any character concept that doesn't sound like a team player is going to be a problem. An immature bratty thief does not sound like a team player to me. You can often spot a drama hog: Characters that are physically immature Characters with a demonstrable handicap (blind, deaf, lame, stutter) Characters with a mental or emotional disease (especially multiple personality disorder and phobias) Characters who begin the game with an obvious curse (leprosy, half-undead) Characters of exotic races in a campaign world that makes you (and your companions) a social pariah. (This often combines the worst qualities of drama hog and min-maxer.) Evil characters in a good-aligned party Characters who happen to be bigoted against a race to which another player's character belongs Thieves who steal from the party Clerics who try to convert the party. Druids who will turn on the party when they outnumber a foe in the name of "balance". Any character whose disruptive actions are justified with nothing more than "Well, that's what my character would do!" Avoid these character concepts at all costs.
Grumman 11-16-07, 10:17 AM	What should I do to make the character not so underpowered compared to the others? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. If they want to play a character who would only be accepted into the party because of PC-sense, you should do nothing to reward them. Bratty rogue -> killed at first opportunity, unless DM fiat prevents the rest of the party from exacting judgement on them.
trapspringer 11-16-07, 11:41 AM	I think this calls for a trait. Juvenile You're really too young for this Effect: You are one size category smaller than normal for your race and you take a -1 non-proficiency penalty on all skill checks, ability checks, and attack rolls. You receive a +1 luck bonus on all saves. Special: Because of the time it takes to learn to cast spells, a Wizard, Cleric, or Druid may not take this trait. A character with this trait may later take levels in Wizard, Cleric, or Druid without losing this trait.
Etarnon 11-16-07, 12:37 PM	Just make them a 1st level rogue.
kelvinaw273 11-16-07, 12:47 PM	Brat hmmm .... Why do I hear the protest: "But that's what my character would DO!" when the rest of the party are about to lynch him?
Slimgauge 11-16-07, 01:04 PM	"But that's what my character would DO!" And this is what my character would do in response. *PANTS* *TURBAN-WEDGIE* P.S. See this old thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-324792.html) for a d20 mechanical description of a Turban Wedgie.
annoyinglizardvoice 11-16-07, 05:49 PM	Just say he developed early. There doesn't need to be a mechanical drawback for being 13. That said, this sort of character concept always gives me the willies because it's a sure sign of someone who wants to be a drama hog. Adventuring parties are teams and any character concept that doesn't sound like a team player is going to be a problem. An immature bratty thief does not sound like a team player to me. You can often spot a drama hog: Characters that are physically immature Characters with a demonstrable handicap (blind, deaf, lame, stutter) Characters with a mental or emotional disease (especially multiple personality disorder and phobias) Characters who begin the game with an obvious curse (leprosy, half-undead) Characters of exotic races in a campaign world that makes you (and your companions) a social pariah. (This often combines the worst qualities of drama hog and min-maxer.) Evil characters in a good-aligned party Characters who happen to be bigoted against a race to which another player's character belongs Thieves who steal from the party Clerics who try to convert the party. Druids who will turn on the party when they outnumber a foe in the name of "balance". Any character whose disruptive actions are justified with nothing more than "Well, that's what my character would do!" Avoid these character concepts at all costs. In most of these cases I agree with you, but I have seen characters younger than the rest of the group played very well. In my home-brew game I have divided humans up into several human sub-races (to represent growing up in different environments). One of these is Vehine Hae (greek myth style amazons). Members of this race are extreemly well trained, to the extent where the avergae adult is a level 2/3 ranger or barbarian. After hearing this, my best mate asked if she could play a Vehine Hae character in her early teens. I lowered most of her character's stats slightly after she rolled them, but then allowed her to increase them due to level ups at a greater rate than the other characters to represent her growing up. She also started of with small bonuses to hide and climb. Said friend is a very good rper, so she managed to play this character seriously and without causing me any problems.
Voran 11-16-07, 09:01 PM	How about instead of adding in a -2 age penalty, make him 1 size smaller due to not being fully developed. that penalizes his strength, but it augments it with a few bonuses, and as he ages he grows up to a normal size. so, being human, he would be a small character instead of medium, netting a -2 to strength, but +1 to AC and the ability to squeeze into smaller spaces. it would also force him to use appropriately sized weapons for a 13 year old kid. Well done. I was going to suggest something along the same lines.
Moosh Nailo 11-17-07, 04:22 AM	I was thinking about doing something like this, but a little younger. Figured I'd just use halfling stats, and call it a kid. Minor changes only; -I'd switch the move silently bonus to swim -Drop the morale vs fear; add 1 skill point/level (is it worth dropping the thrown weapon bonus too?) -Switch the listen bonus to a bluff bonus Makes for a rough and tumble street kid, no? Plus saves the worry of designing and balancing something entirely new.
danielinthewolvesden 11-17-07, 03:43 PM	One of our group's players wants to play a 13-year old "brat" who has been brought up by thieves. Ask him "why" and pin him down until he explains fully. Sounds like the player wants to run a disruptive spotlite hog.:weep:
Tequila_Sunrise 11-17-07, 03:54 PM	One of our group's players wants to play a 13-year old "brat" who has been brought up by thieves. The class is naturally rogue, but how could I tweak his character so that it is not totally underpowered compared to the rest of the group? I am afraid he will become frustrated with his character as, at this point, I think I really have no choice but to impose at least a -2 age penalty on all ability scores due to his young age (still underdeveloped motor and mental skills etc.)... What should I do to make the character not so underpowered compared to the others? -John Who says this character needs mechanical mods? Just have him stat up his character as usual and leave the question of age to description. If you really want there this character to be mechanically modified, it doesn't need to be any more complicated than Small size, -2 Str, +2 Dex. Then when he hits standard starting age, reverse the mods. If you try to make this character too "realistic" you'll just end up with a headache.
Kn1ves 11-17-07, 06:00 PM	Wow, there's a lot of you here that just assume the player wants to be a spotlight hog. Why the rash conclusion and what's wrong with a player wanting to play something a bit out of the norm? Bratty doesn't mean completly stupid and obnoxious, they probably just want to play someone that isn't as experianced in the world as the standard character. If they're too immature to be with the party then they'll either learn to shape up quick and make themselves useful or they'll be left to their own devices when the party ditches them at heir next in town stop. Fiction is strewn with underage characters trying to be something they have no right attempting at their age or just follownig someone around and looking up to them for inspiration. The first couple that pop into my head are the girl from The Professional and the Tim Drake version of Robin. As far as the mechanics of the character go I agree with just dropping them a size catagory for about 5 or 6 levels.
echelon_house 11-17-07, 07:26 PM	Seriously guys, there's nothing particularly inappropriate about wanting to play a kid. What? Characters with some sort of trait or backstory that sets them apart from the other PCs? Oh no! I guess we should all stick to one-dimensional characters who smash things, huh? I can understand that a spotlight hog is annoying - someone who was raised by elves in the wilderness, and is secretly the the last descendent of the guy who defeated the BBEG a million years ago, and is the king of the only remaining human nation that stands up to the BBEG now is annoying - but I really don't think this is one of those cases.
trapspringer 11-17-07, 08:27 PM	Ask him "why" and pin him down until he explains fully. Sounds like the player wants to run a disruptive spotlite hog.:weep: I strongly disagree. I don't think there's really any reason to believe that.
Grumman 11-17-07, 08:27 PM	Echelon: By playing a kid, he's forcing everyone else to put up with something which really doesn't make any sense in-world. Why would any mercenary characters put up with some annoying brat who hasn't even had their growth spurt yet, yet expects a full share of loot? Why would any good characters choose to lead this kid into danger instead of leaving him at the closest town?
BW0222 11-17-07, 08:41 PM	johniemi, The issues with playing a child aren't just physical stats -- if you even bother with these on someone who is a few years younger than normal starting ages. However, what about a twelve year-old, ten year-old, etc. Eventually stats need adjusting and... The issues are that the player is choosing to play one of many concepts which may exclude him from actually being able to adventure. What if one of the other PCs sees this child as too young to adventure and doesn't allow him in the party? Even if a PC doesn't some NPC might grab him and toss him in the local orphanage. Even if this doesn't happen, you run into dozens of issues which might prevent the character from being allowed in specific adventures: * Folks who refuse to hire or pay children for dangerous missions. * Folks who refuse to sell children weapons, magic, or dangerous stuff. * Folks who refuse to allow children into bars, churches, noble houses, state dinners, ships, brothels, etc. without their parents present (or at all). * etc., etc. At some point, someone has to ask, why the city watch is allowing a child to walk in the city gates with 1000gp in his pounch and armed to the teeth. "Err... excuse me son... where did you get all this stuff?" Killing monsters isn't a terribly believable answer. You get into the same issues with trying to play a pregnant woman, a blind person, a cripple, etc. Eventually someone asks why they are allowing you to adventure... most good folk would be trying to keep you from harm. What should I do to make the character not so underpowered compared to the others? Recommend to the player that he try following the starting age rules. Be 16 or so. If he wants to disquise himself as a child from time to time, try that. However, intentionally being a character concept which should be excluded from participating in adventuring just makes the game silly. Forcing other players and the DM to meta-game not excluding you from adventuring isn't fair to them.
Ultima0071 11-17-07, 09:11 PM	Well, I reccomend not using any rules at all for the players' full enjoyment. Though, if you feel the machanics are really law then you can use the following: Teenager Template (Ages 13-15) -2 Strength, -2 Constitution, -1 Wisdom Fit/Unfit: A teenager can either be unfit or more fit than the average adventurer. If his constution score is below 11, then he takes a -5 to speed. If it is above 11, he gets a +5 to speed. No Knowledge: A teenager takes a -3 penalty on all knowledge checks. Expert Dodge: A teenager receives a +2 dodge bonus to his armor class. Unskillful: A teenager gets 2 skill points per level, regardless of class. LA: -1 (explained below) Once a teenager reaches an age above 15, he looses all his penalties. He also looses his Unskillful ability. Below +0 LA: Any creature without an LA of +0 or above can trade in his negatives for levels. Below is the exchange rate. When trading, no matter the level gain, the creature's LA goes to +0. Any level gain by this method does not give the creature a new hit dice, skill points, base attack bonus, or saves; just new class features. -1------------------------->1 -2------------------------->1 -3------------------------->2 -4------------------------->2 -5------------------------->2 -6------------------------->3 -7------------------------->3 -8------------------------->4 -9 to -25------------------>5
-thisisacat- 11-18-07, 01:20 AM	come on, at 13 just give him a -1 or -2 penalty to trained skills. and maybe give him a bonus or two for "youthful virility" I mean really, a lot of 13 year olds are pretty close to adulthood. you could maybe give a wis penalty and the ability to adjust more quickly.
KillerVole 11-18-07, 01:30 AM	If no one cares about his age, or wants to discourage it, don't penalize him. Also, a 13 year old is not necessarily size small. I was taller than my mom at age 13, about 5'6". Finally, to Ultima0071, I do not think hitting teens on knowledge checks is really justified. If they have had a formal education (as many have in a fantasy setting) teenagers are often more knowledgeable, in a general sense, than adults, because of school drilling things into their brains. While they will lack concentrated expertise in any one area, they will know a little about everything. I would change it to: General Knowledge: A teenager takes a -3 penalty on all knowledge checks, but they are allowed to make any knowledge check untrained.
Moosh Nailo 11-18-07, 04:17 AM	A lot of the so called black marks on playing children that are being brought up are roleplaying issues. While its all good and fine to bring these issues to light, nobody outside of the group itself can say what the reaction will be. That is for the players/characters to figure out for themselves. If hardened mercenaries decide to accept this child into their midst, who are you outsiders to question their motives?
Bee_B_CAN 11-18-07, 11:03 AM	If it's not an issue with your players, a -2 or -3 to all abilities sounds okay with Small size benefits (at the DM's discretion, even if the child isn't of "Small" size because of youthful reflexes and lack of mindfulness about their own skin). Be sure to not let them into any bars, allow for extraordinary amounts of discrimination based on age and ensure that the poor lad messes himself the first time an orc comes barrelling at him with a war axe. So long as the player is prepared to accept that being a kid in an adult's world is pretty crap, I'd enjoy the DM challenge. He's better be a good roleplayer though. When you think about it, a lot of fantasy movies use the "youthful scamp" template when coming up with rogue characters. I'd also add a touch of realism and keep track of time between adventures. The character would grow up and become a full adult after a few and it would add a touch of je ne sais quoi... hard to explain but I would appreciate the growing up of a fellow adventurer in my ranks. If his party members taught him some of their skills (and they would be the rogue's main teachers, obviously) the rogue would have a fairly well-rounded education. Some religion skills, spellcraft and a few combat feats in addition to self-taught rogue skills... typing this out I wish my group met often enough to support a character like this.
Crimson_Concerto 11-18-07, 03:11 PM	No, really, would somebody please explain to me why there need to be mechanical effects at all? Why not just stat the character up normally? I mean, is there any real reason to go out of your way to adjust any mechanics? We don't bother with giving characters with long hair any penalties to listen checks or obese characters a slower speed or characters from a rich family bonus starting gold, so why bother with doing anything about a young character? Really, what am I missing here? What's the problem? :confused: (( Oh, and your average 13-year-old human is already past D&D's height threshold for being of Small size, so I really don't understand why people keep suggesting that. It really makes no sense, just by the way... ))
Man in the Funny Hat 11-18-07, 03:16 PM	What should I do to make the character not so underpowered compared to the others?Put me in the camp with, "I don't see any reason at all to impose underpowering rules on him in the first place." This would be PARTICULARLY true of rogues. It is practically the archetype of rogues that they are street urchins right out of the gate. Look at your PH, p. 109 and you should see that you're being quite excessive at the very least with your penalties. Core rules starting age range for human rogues is 16-19 (same for barbarians and sorcerors too). And look at how scores are adjusted as characters go from Adult to Middle Age: -1 to Str, Con, and Dex, +1 to the rest. Think about what that is saying about the effects of aging. The adjustments for being YOUNGER than "adult" should not be so cripplingly severe. For the "young adult" age category of 13-15 I'd suggest -1 Str and Con, no adjust to Dex (as it's just my observation and opinion that kids can in some ways be MORE dextrous than adults), and -1 to Int, Wis, and Cha as being FAR more reasonable. All things considered I'd reserve the size adjustments suggested by others as more appropriate for being 12 or younger. My own "aging" chart for making characters younger might look like this for humans: Young Adult, 13-15, -1 Str, -0 Dex, -1 Con, -1 Int, -1 Wis, -1 Cha Adolescent, 8-12, -2 Str, -1 Dex, -2 Con, -1 Int, -1 Wis, -1 Cha Child, 5-7, -3 Str, -2 Dex, -3 Con, -1 Int, -1 Wis, -1 Cha Younger than 5 would be manifestly unplayable as a PC in any case. And all that is assuming I suddenly had a need to work up something like that to accomodate unusually young characters, especially PC's. Depending on what the characters stats actually ARE, I'm not sure I'd see a need to adjust them downward, much less then wonder how to make the downward adjustment less severe. A 13 year old rogue I can easily see acquiring skill and survivability beyond his years.
KillerVole 11-18-07, 03:26 PM	No, really, would somebody please explain to me why there need to be mechanical effects at all? Why not just stat the character up normally? I mean, is there any real reason to go out of your way to adjust any mechanics? From all I have seen, the goal is to discourage players from playing young PCs, likely due to roleplaying problems. It also depends on the campaign's flavor. I think it is unnecessary. C.S. Lewis' books (The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, etc.) are pretty much based around young people in wars and such. I think some people feel that ability penalties add realism, or they just don't want to have to deal with little kids in the party. If neither of those are the case, stat changes are pointless.
Count Arioch the 28th 11-18-07, 05:48 PM	If someone wanted to be 13 years old, I wouldn't put any sort of mechanical bonus or penalty to it. Just tell the player to arrange the stats appropriately. (For example, I have trouble envisioning a 13 year old with more than above average strength, or average wisdom.) Considering that if the 13 year old doesn't die, he could make level 20 before his 16th birthday, just having the PC arrange the stats like that would be sufficient. But this touches on the thing I hate most about 3E. The idea that there needs to be mechanics for EVERYTHING. IT seems that in the 3E world, a PC can't wipe his own ass without applying a -2 penalty or requiring a feat to do so.
Count Arioch the 28th 11-18-07, 05:52 PM	Be sure to not let them into any bars, Why? The 13 year old orders a short beer or watered wine instead of an ale, and that's fine. The idea of there being a minimum drinking age is a recent, American idea. In fact, that's what Short Beer was for, for children to drink. and ensure that the poor lad messes himself the first time an orc comes barrelling at him with a war axe. There are thousand upon thousands of 13-year-olds in the world's militaries. A 13 year old is just as capable of killing and dying as anyone else. To say that someone is a coward when they're 13 years old is purely a lie.
JulesCARV 11-18-07, 06:07 PM	Incidentally, I think that wrecan's "don't be a drama hog" criteria just wiped out every major character in The Dark Tower. Jake gets the boot for being a kid, of course. Susannah is physically disabled and also has psychiatric problems. Drama hog! Eddie might make it, but his being a heroin addict probably falls under "mental disease" or "curse" or something. Roland is a drama hog for having a maimed right hand, and also for getting arthritis later on (demonstrable handicap). Oy? Well, I doubt wrecan like animal PCs either, but technically I guess he doesn't violate any of wrecan's criteria. So maybe we could have Oy going on the quest for the Dark Tower all on his own.
Passivearmada 11-18-07, 07:05 PM	<snip> But if the player just want to play a Child let him play a child give him no or skilled enough to be an adventurer and should be played as such. <snip> I think that it's funny that you capitalized the C in Child. It felt like you were implying that it was a seperate race or template. :rofl:
Sezarious 11-18-07, 07:40 PM	Ask him "why" and pin him down until he explains fully. Sounds like the player wants to run a disruptive spotlite hog.:weep: Well not neccesarily. Imagine playing an Anikin Skywalker (Ep 1) character, or a kid who the party always tells to stay behind and guard the camp. Suddenly the party is bound up and the kid gets worried so heads off, finds them and gets the keys (sneaks successfully because he's small) and does the rescue. Or maybe the sort of kid that an enemy trys to kidnap, not realising the kid is a levl 5 monk and can do lethal damage when grappled. Picture the cliche boy slumped over a BBEGs back, trying to hit the guy in a rather comical fashion on the back, which works out to be more of a massage for him "Rrr.. let go of me you big bully". Good Roleplaying potential. I've played a game called "Little Fears" which is essentially a game where you play as a child, whos imagination can bring in both good things and bad things. In other words, it's the game where you try to escape the monster under the bed, or where the tooth fairy comes to protect you. That book has some good traits and flaws that can allow you to customise your childs personality e.g. (fearless) Blows a rasberry at a Giant Wyrem dragon, but (curious) always pushes the big Red button that gets the party into trouble.
wrecan 11-18-07, 08:49 PM	Incidentally, I think that wrecan's "don't be a drama hog" criteria just wiped out every major character in The Dark Tower. Characters that are game protagonists usually make horrible PCs. Why? Because they are usually not game players. They are the protagonists around which the other characters revolve. An author, who controls every character in the book can make sure they all shine if he wants to give each character a chance to shine, or he can let one character dominate. Who cares? The characters are fictional and not governed by players who each would like equal playing time. Well, I doubt wrecan like animal PCs either, but technically I guess he doesn't violate any of wrecan's criteria. Are they playing an animal with Int 2?! That's a demonstrable handicap. I'm no fan of any concept that confuses gimmick with role-play.
Pezz 11-18-07, 09:34 PM	the mechanical aspect in being a kid is, for me, because it seems like the person wants to do something completely different from normal. Having him as a normal statted human would not be normal, and thus there would be no point in having him 13 instead of 16. a mechanical difference between the two would add in more than just role playing differences, and thus make the whole experience different for the player.
Galaktia 11-18-07, 09:46 PM	This character sounds like a perfect D&D character because it sounds like a character from so many diffrent Fantasy books. Most notably (as I just read it) the Magician book by Raymond Fiest contains a character called "Jimmy The Hand" who when first met is about 13, uses a dagger, and acts as a runner and scout for the theifs group known as "The Mockers" I'd allow it. *snickers* heck as a player I have played 13 year olds before. And the size penalty is a good idea. I'd say the size penalty is pretty perfect, bonuses to hide, negatives to grapple, etc. I love characters younger or older than the norm becase they are one of (in my opinions) the wonderful splashes of colour in the worlds of Fantasy, the 40 year old near retirement fighter who is getting to old to lift a sword and still remembers the good old days when fights were fights and not this silly sword bashing they have today. The 13 year old wizard who has been stealing and reading his fathers wizarding books since he was 3 and has come into magic alot earlier than others due to him being just naturaly adept. Having young characters gives you the chance to roleplay puberty and the first love as well, both of which give wonderful jokes and serious roleplay to a character. example of a great puberty D&D joke. Party leader "No dating her" Boy "why the **** not, I can date who I want" Party leader "We are the good party, she is an evil drow sorceress with an army of undead" Boy "So shes got huge ***s and a nice ass!" Party leader "BOYS" *walks away in disgust* example of a great serious moment with a young party member would be the moment the young party member is faced with the fact he isn't actualy seen as a viable force due to his age and has to come to terms with the fact he is perhaps to young to be a respected member of a party of heros.
Galaktia 11-18-07, 09:51 PM	Oh I forgot to mention the balance aspect I meant to bring up properly. The cripling "balancer" for a 13 year old character is the fact in most D&D style societies, especially those in medieval settings, like D&D the 13 year old has little or no social force what so ever. He is unlikely to get into any of the upper class places, he is unlikely to be listened. At adventuring stores such as magic weapon shops he is likely to be outright ignored, if not chased of as a theif. Social crippling as a 13 year old is an effective method of gaining both roleplay and balance.
danielinthewolvesden 11-19-07, 12:10 AM	Well not neccesarily. Imagine playing an Anikin Skywalker (Ep 1) character, . True,not nessesarily, so that's why I said "Ask him "why" and pin him down until he explains fully." Besides, to me Anakin was annoying as all get out.:P
Crimson_Concerto 11-19-07, 01:18 AM	Okay, no, seriously guys, 13-year-old are not of small size by any stretch of the imagination. Please stop suggesting that. I mean, if you REALLY feel like you need any kind of mechanical effect for younger characters, that's the wrong mechanical effect. Really, I mean a quick Google search of "height by age" reveals the following on the first page: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhanes/growthcharts/set2/chart%2007.pdf http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhanes/growthcharts/set2/chart%2008.pdf http://www.babybag.com/articles/htwt_av.htm See? Now, consider the fact that the shortest Dwarves can be 3'9" and that's still medium size. In fact, the tallest Gnomes are 3'8", so we know even where the threshold is. Now, please look at the charts above for just a moment then then again suggest that a 13-year-old should be of small size...
Archangel_Tyrael 11-19-07, 02:24 AM	One of our group's players wants to play a 13-year old "brat" who has been brought up by thieves. The class is naturally rogue, but how could I tweak his character so that it is not totally underpowered compared to the rest of the group? I am afraid he will become frustrated with his character as, at this point, I think I really have no choice but to impose at least a -2 age penalty on all ability scores due to his young age (still underdeveloped motor and mental skills etc.)... What should I do to make the character not so underpowered compared to the others? -John You should tell him to make a 16 year old character, but that his character tells everyone that he's 13. the mechanical aspect in being a kid is, for me, because it seems like the person wants to do something completely differentfrom normal. Having him as a normal statted human would not be normal, and thus there would be no point in having him 13 instead of 16. a mechanical difference between the two would add in more than just role playing differences, and thus make the whole experience different for the player. That's a very good observation, Pezz. If they don't want a "normal" character, they shouldn't get a "normal" character. Balancing an underage character isn't "gimping" it, it's giving the player what he/she wants, a unique character. Welcome to the forums, btw. Okay, no, seriously guys, 13-year-old are not of small size by any stretch of the imagination. Please stop suggesting that. I mean, if you REALLY feel like you need any kind of mechanical effect for younger characters, that's the wrong mechanical effect. Really, I mean a quick Google search of "height by age" reveals the following on the first page: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhanes/growthcharts/set2/chart%2007.pdf http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhanes/growthcharts/set2/chart%2008.pdf http://www.babybag.com/articles/htwt_av.htm See? Now, consider the fact that the shortest Dwarves can be 3'9" and that's still medium size. In fact, the tallest Gnomes are 3'8", so we know even where the threshold is. Now, please look at the charts above for just a moment then then again suggest that a 13-year-old should be of small size... Okay, no, seriously guys, 13-year-olds are not playable characters by any stretch of the imagination. Please stop suggesting that. I mean, if you REALLY feel like you need to play a 13-year-old character, you should give up that idea. Really, I mean a quick search of d20srd.com "Starting Ages" reveals the following on the first page: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#tableRandomStartingAges See? Now, consider the fact that the age of a character is only a damn number, and it doesn't really matter what age you tell the NPCs you are. In fact, there are no rules for human PCs below the age of 16. Now, please look at the charts above for just a moment then then again suggest that a 13-year-old should be an adventurer in a fantasy world... Seriously, though, IT'S JUST A NUMBER. It has no effect on gameplay. That being said, Wizards has already set a rule for the minimum age of a Human Rogue PC: 16. You can choose or randomly generate your character’s age. If you choose it, it must be at least the minimum age for the character’s race and class. The problem at its core: If we allow our players to choose ages below the threshold, how far as DMs do we allow them to go? If a 13-year-old PC is fine, is a 12-year-old PC also acceptable? What about 10? 8? 6? 3 years old? In conclusion, NO!
aotrscommander 11-19-07, 07:31 AM	The problem at its core: If we allow our players to choose ages below the threshold, how far as DMs do we allow them to go? If a 13-year-old PC is fine, is a 12-year-old PC also acceptable? What about 10? 8? 6? 3 years old? In conclusion, NO! Why not? I mean it's not like there any young heroes out there that people might, y'know, want to base the odd character around, like say, off the top of my head (and this is but a brief example): Belgarion, Aang the Avatar, most of the shinobi from Naruto, most of the characters in Harry Potter, all five members of W.i.t.c.h, Gohan, Trunks, Alex Ryder, Anakin and Ben Skywalker, Anakin, Jacen and Jaina Solo, Jubilee, Kitty Pryde, Robin, Beast Boy (or for that matter and member of the Teen Titans, Generation X, New Mutants or New X Men), Power Pack, Jake Sisko or Wesley Crusher, most of the protagonists in Narnia, Tortall, Emelan and more console RPGs than I can shake a stick at to name but a few, covering a broad range of media and generas. And who range all across the board from child to teenager and for really annoying irritant to geniunely developed characters and all points in between (who falls into what category depends very much on personal preference). And pretty much all of whom were and/or are capable of dealing with adults on a level footing, even those whom supposedly had much more skill... Personally, I'd not blink an eyelid. The age restrictions are nothing more than flavour and a guideline for the beginners who might otherwise have no idea. I'd just leave them as completely unchanged. Also, if you do decide to apply roleplaying penalties to the characters because of his/her youth, remember to likewise apply the benefits as well when the bad guys completely ignore and/or underestimate the 'child' who is so obviously no threat, giving said character as advantage, because otherwise you're not being fair... The Romans, of course, considered you an adult from potentially as early as 12 or 14 (girls and boys respectively). Setting also has a big effect. The only thing I might have against the idea is if I believed the player was going to make a disruptive character (in which case it wouldn't get that far and a disruptive character is a disruptive character regardless of how you flavour or mechanically modify it, age, race, sex or class independant).
Kaede 11-19-07, 09:22 AM	Just want to say something... How many 14 years got married at medieval ages? LOTS! and earlier? LOTS TOO! Also the kings and queens marry at that age for political reasons, and the commoners did too... at that age you were consider an adult, and have to work in the field with the crops and cows or enter the militia or the church... I know this game is only BASED in a medieval environment, but WHY NOT LETTING HIM PLAY A 13 YEARS OLD BOY? I don't see the problem here... and don't penalice him for his age, not even make him smaller, or NOTHING... there are boys of 13 years old that are higher than me and i'm 24... height is not a problem... By the way, ask the player why he wants to have a 13 years old boy ingame, he wants him to be smaller? He wants him to be childish? Many 13 years old boys wrote BIG things you know? Just look at Tchaikovsky... He wrote his first work when he was only 12 years old... That little rogue may be a genius by the way... Why not? ALL IS POSSIBLE IN THIS REALITY AND EVEN MORE IN A ROLEPLAYING FANTASY GAME...
Archangel_Tyrael 11-19-07, 03:21 PM	Why not? I guess it's because everyone who supports the age 13 character thinks that's it's the most original thing they've ever heard. When clearly, I mean it's not like there any young heroes out there that people might, y'know, want to base the odd character around, like say, off the top of my head (and this is but a brief example): Belgarion, Aang the Avatar, most of the shinobi from Naruto, most of the characters in Harry Potter, all five members of W.i.t.c.h, Gohan, Trunks, Alex Ryder, Anakin and Ben Skywalker, Anakin, Jacen and Jaina Solo, Jubilee, Kitty Pryde, Robin, Beast Boy (or for that matter and member of the Teen Titans, Generation X, New Mutants or New X Men), Power Pack, Jake Sisko or Wesley Crusher, most of the protagonists in Narnia, Tortall, Emelan and more console RPGs than I can shake a stick at to name but a few, covering a broad range of media and generas. that isn't the case. I just can't stand the attitude of: "STOP LIMITING MY CREATIVITY BY NERFING MY UNORIGINAL, RULES-OPPOSED CHARACTER CONCEPT!" Also, if you do decide to apply roleplaying penalties to the characters because of his/her youth, remember to likewise apply the benefits as well when the bad guys completely ignore and/or underestimate the 'child' who is so obviously no threat, giving said character as advantage, because otherwise you're not being fair... Of course, that is the entire point of the original post. If you're going to play a child and be ignored by all of the enemies on the battlefield for the first few rounds, that's worth at least a -2 to all your stats until they react normally to your character at the beginning of combat. That's what the OP was asking for. The only thing I might have against the idea is if I believed the player was going to make a disruptive character (in which case it wouldn't get that far and a disruptive character is a disruptive character regardless of how you flavour or mechanically modify it, age, race, sex or class independant). Agreed. But, if you specify at the beginning of the campaign, "No Half-Orcs" and one of your players rolls up a Half-Orc, what do you do? You tell them "Hell no, you aren't a Half-Orc! If you want to play in my game you have to be a different race." Besides, if you don't change the character in some way it's just like all the other characters: Player: I want to play a 10-year-old wizard. DM: Why? Player: I want to be just like ______ from the ________ comics/movie. DM: Ok...that's not very original but I'll allow it, I guess. You'll have to take -2 to all stats and you're treated as small size until you reach the age of 15. After 15, you are treated as medium-sized. When you reach 17 you lose all negatives and you are then normal. Player: What?! That's not fair! DM: Why not? Player: You're just trying to nerf my character idea! DM: No, there aren't any existing rules for this so it's not a legal character concept. In cases where rules don't cover the way the players want to play, it's my job as DM to house-rule the situation so the situation is fair to everyone. Player: Why can't I just have normal stats like everyone else? DM: Why would you want to be like everyone else? Are you trying to make a memorable character? If so, you should try with all your power to be different than the other characters! You should be encouraging me to houserule different sets of rules for you! If you wanted to be like everyone else you should make a character that follows the rules. Player: I want to be a Wizard prodigy whose parents have died and he blah, blah, blah, blah. DM: And that's fine, but a 10-year-old Wizard prodigy is not going to have a higher intelligence than a 20-year-old Wizard prodigy (AKA, a normal D&D wizard)--it's just not going to happen. That's what the -2's represent. And the Small Size equivalent is because you'll be 60-75% smaller than a member of your race who is full-grown. You have to realize that ALL D&D characters are prodigies--if they weren't, they wouldn't be in the group. If you decide to play your 10-year-old prodigy, you had better find a way to make sure your character is not a burden to the group. Player: Oh, I get it now. I've got a new idea! I'm going to play a Halfling Barbarian whose mission in life is to get rid of the stereotype that Halflings are weak. DM: Much better. :D
aotrscommander 11-19-07, 05:50 PM	But, if you specify at the beginning of the campaign, "No Half-Orcs" and one of your players rolls up a Half-Orc, what do you do? You tell them "Hell no, you aren't a Half-Orc! If you want to play in my game you have to be a different race." Besides, if you don't change the character in some way it's just like all the other characters: Player: I want to play a 10-year-old wizard. DM: Why? Player: I want to be just like ______ from the ________ comics/movie. DM: Ok...that's not very original but I'll allow it, I guess. You'll have to take -2 to all stats and you're treated as small size until you reach the age of 15. After 15, you are treated as medium-sized. When you reach 17 you lose all negatives and you are then normal. Player: What?! That's not fair! DM: Why not? Player: You're just trying to nerf my character idea! DM: No, there aren't any existing rules for this so it's not a legal character concept. In cases where rules don't cover the way the players want to play, it's my job as DM to house-rule the situation so the situation is fair to everyone. Player: Why can't I just have normal stats like everyone else? DM: Why would you want to be like everyone else? Are you trying to make a memorable character? If so, you should try with all your power to be different than the other characters! You should be encouraging me to houserule different sets of rules for you! If you wanted to be like everyone else you should make a character that follows the rules. Player: I want to be a Wizard prodigy whose parents have died and he blah, blah, blah, blah. DM: And that's fine, but a 10-year-old Wizard prodigy is not going to have a higher intelligence than a 20-year-old Wizard prodigy (AKA, a normal D&D wizard)--it's just not going to happen. That's what the -2's represent. And the Small Size equivalent is because you'll be 60-75% smaller than a member of your race who is full-grown. You have to realize that ALL D&D characters are prodigies--if they weren't, they wouldn't be in the group. If you decide to play your 10-year-old prodigy, you had better find a way to make sure your character is not a burden to the group. Player: Oh, I get it now. I've got a new idea! I'm going to play a Halfling Barbarian whose mission in life is to get rid of the stereotype that Halflings are weak. DM: Much better. :D That's fair enough - in your game. I don't agree with you on that, personally, mind (I don't think that age needs to be anything other than a flavour factor any more than hair colour or eye colour; heck, we've never paid much if any attention to D&D's age categories at the best of times as a group; never did before 3.0 in any other system, so why start now?) But if that's what you as DM are happy with that's your business (and being the person that I am, if I were a player in your group I would accept that desicion). What prompted my somewhat verbose response was your implication that all DMs should subscribe to your methods, which I don't agree with, any more than I don't think everyone should try to run their games my way1. For the record, by the way, I'd personally be far more favourably inclined to a ten-years old wizard prodigy than a halfling barbarian reverse steriotype (which is nearly as cliche as a steriotype.) Especially if the player has planned the one in detail and decided on the latte on the spur of the moment. But, that, as they say, is me. Also for the record, I decided sometime prior to this conversation that my next character is going to be a Cleric with a dash of Monk whose mechanics I shall attempt to reflavour into Naruto-style jutsus with a Naruto-style personality (age undecided, but would be in the range from 12-16 probably). Just for the sheer fun of reflavouring the spells and seeing if I can actually do it. (And it means that no one else has to play cleric.) (Narut)oDZilla anyone? 1Excepting my Lawful Evil Lich-based egocentric arrogance that obviously means that everyone else in the entire universe should subscribe to my opinions and treat all I say as unquestionable fact even in the face of flatly contradictory evidence...
Man in the Funny Hat 11-19-07, 09:08 PM	There are thousand upon thousands of 13-year-olds in the world's militaries. A 13 year old is just as capable of killing and dying as anyone else. To say that someone is a coward when they're 13 years old is purely a lie.Too true, sadly enough. It is also utterly reprehensible that children are not just allowed, but FORCED to become soldiers. Depending on just what kind of campaign being run there need be no argument if the DM simply does NOT want the campaign to even chance delving into certain areas. Oliver Twist and the Artful Dodger are classic prototypes for young PC rogues - characters that would be even younger than 13. Such characters would be great additions to most campaigns and there would not only be no reason not to allow them but no reason to handicap them in any fashion for being young. Even when given some of the darker elements of Dickensian-era society. But there's also the prototype of a 13 year-old kid in some pathetic African dictatorship handed an AK-4 and a machete and told to kill people or be hacked to death himself. That's the sort of thing you can't really make a light-hearted musical out of. Depending on what your campaign focuses on, including young PC's can draw the game into places you simply do NOT want or need it to go. Younger-then-"normal" D&D characters are on a DM-approval and DM-house rules-territory basis for good reasons. There's plenty of room for them in D&D, but no reason that they HAVE to be allowed either.
tridiak 11-20-07, 02:42 AM	Physical stat wise : -2 Str, -1 Con, +1 Dex. Mental Stat : -2 Int (unless Education feat taken), -2 Wis, -2 Cha(??). Remove when reach 16-18.
Kaede 11-20-07, 10:14 AM	-2 Cha(??). No, i don't think to remove charisma a good deal... Inteligence as you threated i think's ok. Wisdom... Let's say ok because the boy is too young and didn't SEE the world. But let me ask a question: żIf you are living and being raised in the wilds, what hapends? I would let have another feat for Wisdom like you propose it for intelligence. For the physical stats... I think your opinion has been the best one... so we have: Unless you have more than 14 final score in CON you're small size. STR: -2 DEX: -1 CON: -1 INT: -2 (Unless getting the Scholar Education feat) WIS: -2 (Unless getting the Wild/Religious Education feat) CHA: +0 The Education Feats can be taken only at Level 1. It's pretty balanced in itself... I'm gonna use it for myself...
JulesCARV 11-20-07, 05:28 PM	I have some ideas on this subject (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12310513&postcount=3), by the way, but they involve somewhat more radical changes than are desired. To be specific, it gets rid of the distinction between first level and other levels (the quadrupling of skill points and maximization of the hit die), and it treats the transition from infancy to adulthood as a kind of "pseudo-monster class" which provides 4 hit points and 12 + (3 * int) skill points. A level 1 sorcerer who has gone through adolescence and is an adult had 4 + 1d4 + con hit points, and 14 + 4*int skill points, while a level 1 sorcerer who is still a pre-adolescent child has 3 + 1d4 + con hit points and 10 + 3*int skill points, from missing out on the "adolescent" level. My impressions as far as ability scores: -Kids ought to have lower strength -- their muscles just aren't as developed. -They might have higher dexterity, though -- they're generally smaller and more flexible, and once they're at the preadolescent stage, their equilibrioception is probably at its peak. -Probably a bit lower constitution -- they're smaller, don't have as many antibodies to common sicknesses, etc. -Intelligence is a bit complicated -- they should take a penalty to intelligence-based checks, such as knowledge and spellcraft, but have a bonus to skill points gained per level, since children know less but are usually quicker learners than adults. Perhaps penalize intelligence, but give extra skill points per level that slightly outweight the penalty -Wisdom? Hm... I'd be inclined to leave that unchanged. (Wisdom in D&D does not involve grasping the inner meaning of Zen koans or anything. It is perception of the outside world, which I don't think changes much between a 13 year old and a 20 year old. Remember: a raven -- which, in the wild, usually never gets older than 10 or 15 years, and whose stats should thus be presumed to apply to a younger bird -- has 14 wisdom on average.) -Charisma? Penalize it. Children aren't as self-confident or intimidating, generally aren't as smooth talkers or liars, and just generally don't have as much presence as adults. So, maybe -2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int, -2 cha, and +2 sp/level (+1 sp/level net, since there's -2 to int).
CryoSilver 11-21-07, 01:10 AM	I disagree with the Strneght penalty. A 13 year old kid is going to be substantially stronger than a halfling, who also has -2 to strength. A halfling is far smaller than a 13 year old human. As I recall, when I was 13-14, I could bench press about 120 lbs. Now I'm 19 (and haven't done much working out except for the last 4 months or so) and I can bench 160, and I know many, many people who would be lucky to break 100 lbs. That's not a very big difference.
JulesCARV 11-21-07, 01:51 AM	If you look at the carrying capacity table (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/carryingAndExploration.html), you'll see that for a medium creature, the difference between 120 lbs and 160 lbs is pretty much exactly a difference of 2 strength. Check it out.
CryoSilver 11-21-07, 01:55 AM	Depends on how you'd classify bench pressing. Benching is easier than lifting weight overhead (military press), so I'd consider that as "lift off the ground" capacity, which is equal to double maximum load, which is more like a difference of 1 point. In any case, I have trouble picturing an elf (always described as being thin, even wispy) being stronger than an adolescent human.
JulesCARV 11-21-07, 02:10 AM	If you can bench press twice your maximum load, then being able to bench press 160 lbs means having a strength of 8, and being able to bench press 120 lbs means having a strength of 6, which is, once again, a difference of 2. UPDATE: However, I think I was wrong about the constitution penalty. Constitution should be left unmodified.
True Avatar 11-21-07, 02:17 AM	i suggest some of your read/watch berserk. Guts/Gattsu was young during many of the flashbacks and handle a sword well
Grumman 11-21-07, 02:42 AM	i suggest some of your read/watch berserk. Guts/Gattsu was young during many of the flashbacks and handle a sword well Comic books are not a reliable source of information.
True Avatar 11-21-07, 06:41 AM	Personally i think berserk is a great comparison to d&d on the field of realism. *NEITHER* one has any. Both have impossible large weapons, creature that cant possibly exist in the real world and magic as young people learning to use weapons the first weapons i learned to use were a Long bow & hand and half sword starting at age 11 so its not too 'out there' for a D&D 13 year old to have no stat penalties
Grumman 11-21-07, 12:45 PM	Personally i think berserk is a great comparison to d&d on the field of realism. *NEITHER* one has any. Both have impossible large weapons, creature that cant possibly exist in the real world and magic Just because they're both works of fantasy doesn't mean that a particular aspect of one necessarily applies to the other. as young people learning to use weapons the first weapons i learned to use were a Long bow & hand and half sword starting at age 11 so its not too 'out there' for a D&D 13 year old to have no stat penalties Unless you were just as effective with those weapons at age 13 as an adult would be with those same weapons, your argument is flawed.
darkdrgon2136 11-21-07, 01:39 PM	This character sounds like a perfect D&D character because it sounds like a character from so many diffrent Fantasy books. Most notably (as I just read it) the Magician book by Raymond Fiest contains a character called "Jimmy The Hand" who when first met is about 13, uses a dagger, and acts as a runner and scout for the theifs group known as "The Mockers" Dont forget he gets a rapier from "Arthur". And I have played a 13 y/o charecter before, It was prety fun. a lot of NPCs underestimated me, aand I got to show them