Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rumple_Cragstan 06-14-07, 05:33 PM	Ok, I realized something thats written in the DMG that we all take for granted appears to be incorrect. It says that every encounter of an appropriate EL should expend a fifth of the party's daily resources (HP, spells, etc.). But it really doesn't. Maybe in the first few levels it does, but after about level 5 or so, there's not a whole lot of chance that so much is going to be used on a single encounter. I'll do some math to prove my point; lets take the standard PC adventuring party at level 5 (Fighter, Rogue, Cleric of Pelor, Wizard). Lets say that they all have 16 in their primary stat, 14 in their secondary stat, and 12/10 in the rest. And for the purposes of this, Con will be the fighter's primary stat. And on top of that, they have an item that will boost their primary stat by 2, bringing it up to 18. Lets assume the cleric took the Healing and Sun domains. Fighter HP:52 AC:20 (using a greatsword) Wizard HP:19 AC:12 (before spells) Spells: 4/4/3/2 Rogue HP:25 AC:19 Cleric HP:31 AC:22 (before spells) Spells: 5/5+1/4+1/3+1/3+1 Lets choose a CR5 monster: a Winter Wolf. After looking at the stat block, I somehow find it hard to believe that this creature will dish out a whole lot of damage, as well as absorb alot of the party's spells. One fireball (assuming it Passes its save, which it probably will) it'll be taking about 17 damage. Then the cleric hits it with an Inflict Serious, and deals about 18 damage. The fighter charges, hits reliably, and deals about 14 damage. Already, thats equal to the Winter Wolf's HP. And the rogue hasn't even gone yet. Even if you assume that the wolf got initiative, which it more than possibly could have, and it hits anyone for max damage (20 damage) thats still not a fifth of the party's resources. Hell, even if it attacks the Wizard, all that means is that the cleric will use a Cure Moderate on him and (most likely) get him back to near-full HP. An average party of 5th level just killed a creature of equal CR to them, all the while expending all of 2 3rd level spells, and 1 2nd. How is that a fifth of thier resources for the day?
Dragonsblood 06-14-07, 05:49 PM	First of all, not every fight goes that smoothly. The wizard might not be able to angle it without catching his friends in the blast, or he might prefer to cast a defensive spell or two first. The cleric and fighter could miss. The rogue might not be able to line up a sneak attack. And you can count on a winter wolf to go near the top of the initiative with a +5 bonus along with +7 to move silently, and darkvision and scent (ambush). Second of all, you're just looking at one monster. Not all monsters of the same CR are created equal.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-14-07, 05:55 PM	They just used up two of their 3rd level spell slots, which they probably only have about five of to start with. Plus a second level spell slot. It may not have drawn off 20% of their total resources, but in terms of resource efficiency, they've just lost 40% of their most effective resource and some more besides. This assumes, of course, that no one misses. And that the wizard happens to have a fireball prepared and is willing to waste an AoE spell on a single target. Of course, one must wonder why the winter wolf didn't breathe rather than biting. But even if it does bite, maybe it should be biting the fighter to prevent him from charging and also to trip him so that his attacks are less effective. It's an Int 9 creature; it's going to have a basic grasp of the tactics which it can use rather than just "bite something at random". However, run this scenario four times rather than one time. After the first couple of times the 3rd level spell slots will have run out. Suddenly the party's effectiveness goes down a fair bit. The third time will be harder. The fourth time will be more so (since now their 2nd level spell options are dwindling too). And in at least one of those cases, given the WW's intelligence and other capabilities, it ought to be attacking when the party is otherwise distracted or occupied, giving it a better tactical situation.
Vharuck 06-14-07, 06:00 PM	Ok, I realized something thats written in the DMG that we all take for granted appears to be incorrect. It says that every encounter of an appropriate EL should expend a fifth of the party's daily resources (HP, spells, etc.). But it really doesn't. Maybe in the first few levels it does, but after about level 5 or so, there's not a whole lot of chance that so much is going to be used on a single encounter. I'll do some math to prove my point; lets take the standard PC adventuring party at level 5 (Fighter, Rogue, Cleric of Pelor, Wizard). Lets say that they all have 16 in their primary stat, 14 in their secondary stat, and 12/10 in the rest. And for the purposes of this, Con will be the fighter's primary stat. And on top of that, they have an item that will boost their primary stat by 2, bringing it up to 18. Lets assume the cleric took the Healing and Sun domains. Boosting a stat by two? 4,000 gp item each, which is nice for 5th level. Also, remember that the fighter's weapons and armor should help him out. But whatever, for the sake of debate, I'll go with it. Fighter HP:52 AC:20 (using a greatsword) Wizard HP:19 AC:12 (before spells) Spells: 4/4/3/2 Rogue HP:25 AC:19 Cleric HP:31 AC:22 (before spells) Spells: 5/5+1/4+1/3+1/3+1 2+1 for the Cleric's 3rd level spells. Lets choose a CR5 monster: a Winter Wolf. After looking at the stat block, I somehow find it hard to believe that this creature will dish out a whole lot of damage, as well as absorb alot of the party's spells. One fireball (assuming it Passes its save, which it probably will) it'll be taking about 17 damage. Then the cleric hits it with an Inflict Serious, and deals about 18 damage. Inflict Serious Wounds is a touch attack spell. The cleric will incur an attack of opportunity from the wolf, which will likely bite(dealing an average of 14 damage) and use a free action to trip the cleric (extraordinary ability). Casting defensively is not completely reliable at this level, so that's an iffy. The fighter charges, hits reliably, and deals about 14 damage. Already, thats equal to the Winter Wolf's HP. And the rogue hasn't even gone yet. Even if you assume that the wolf got initiative, which it more than possibly could have, and it hits anyone for max damage (20 damage) thats still not a fifth of the party's resources. Also, the wolf uses tactics. The CR system assumes that you use the creatures as intended. Dragons will be easy if they're played like moronic beat-sticks instead of superhumanly intelligent creatures, and winter wolves will be easy if you don't notice that they have racial bonuses to Hide and Move Silently as well as the Track feat. That screams ambush. Hell, even if it attacks the Wizard, all that means is that the cleric will use a Cure Moderate on him and (most likely) get him back to near-full HP. An average party of 5th level just killed a creature of equal CR to them, all the while expending all of 2 3rd level spells, and 1 2nd. How is that a fifth of thier resources for the day? Let me pick a CR 5 opponent. A young black dragon. Size: Medium HP: 85 Abilities: Str 15, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10 BAB: +10 (wow), which results in a +12 attack (like that'll really miss) A 6d4 acid breath weapon every 1d4 rounds. It can fly with a speed of 150 ft. and poor maneuverability. So only the wizard, with fly, can hope to touch it unless the dragon wants to come in close. All it has to do is fly 15' above the ground over them and breathe every 1d4 rounds until their bodies stop twitching. And hey, it's only supposed to use up 20% of their resources!
Narthon 06-14-07, 06:02 PM	Why would Con be the fighter's primary stat? Traditionally they chose Str. I rarely see clerics memorize inflict spells.
Matthew77 06-14-07, 06:07 PM	I'm not enamoured of the CR system, so I'm not going to try too hard to defend it, but I think you are being unfair to the Winterwolf. 1) Single monsters are usually under-perform compared to a group of lower-CR monsters. 2 CR 4s will usually fare better than a single CR 5. "Winterwolves usually hunt in packs" 2) The winterwolf should take advantage of its stealth and speed to ambush the party. Starting off with a 4d6 cone that catches 3 of the party members might do some damage. Or charge the wizard and use improved trip to put him on the ground. 3) Even if we use your scenario.. it deals 20hp and costs the party 2 third level spells. The party has 127 total Hp, so thats 16% of the party's hp. And they used 2/5 of their highest level spells, which might be close to 20% of spell power for the day, if you assume only the top two spell levels are really effective in combat. So even if it did only 10% of resources, that's not bad against a fully rested party. What if this was their 4th encounter of the day, and the Wizard was down to a single 2nd level spell, and the Cleric had no healing left...
tricky_bob 06-14-07, 06:08 PM	Why would Con be the fighter's primary stat? Traditionally they chose Str. I rarely see clerics memorize inflict spells. It was an example! To the OP, I agree to a point. As soon as the party gets a Wand of CLW, the encounter is never really going to use up 1/5 of the resources.
Master_of_Flames 06-14-07, 06:10 PM	That's why you don't let them get a wand of CLW. :P
Drausktanchache 06-14-07, 06:14 PM	I rarely see clerics memorize inflict spells. ALWAYS memorize inflict spells, because if you need later, they can just be dropped for healing, but they come in really useful.
Narthon 06-14-07, 06:21 PM	ALWAYS memorize inflict spells, because if you need later, they can just be dropped for healing, but they come in really useful. Along with lots of other useful spells. For dealing damage, most clerics do ok with their weapons.
Onikani 06-14-07, 07:09 PM	First off a 16, 14, 12, 12, 10, 10 at 5th level is a 26 point buy, so that's fine. Adding a stat boosting item at level 5 is a little early, since they cost nearly half each pc's wealth, but we'll let that slide... Next flaw: One fireball (assuming it Passes its save, which it probably will) it'll be taking about 17 damage. Then the cleric hits it with an Inflict Serious, and deals about 18 damage. An average fireball from a 5th level wizzy deals about 17 damage. Which is 8 after the wolf fails its save. This is a little more realistic: Wizard (somehow) wins init and casts fireball - wolf takes 8 Wolf attacks on wizard - deals 14 average damage however on a lucky roll it may knock wizard out in one hit. Cleric now must cure the wizard, or he will DIE next turn when the wolf attacks him again (assuming 19 HP on the wiz, 2 hits of 14 will drop the wiz to -9 which is too close for comfort). Cleric casts cure moderate on the wiz and pulls an average of 14 points. So far a 2nd and 3rd level spell are used, no one is buffed, the party is at full HP, and the wolf has lost 8. The fighter full power attacks with his great sword. By your stats the fighter has 14 st, which means he will hit for 2d6+3+10, for an average of 20. (This also means the fighter needs an 11-13 to hit the wolf depending on feats - so he's taking a 50/50 chance to hit.) The rogue may take him out if he can get into flanking and hits with 2 weapons (short swords?) 2x(d6+3d6) = 8d6 = 28 damage average. Wolf has taken 56 points of damage, assuming every attack against him hit and did average damage, a single bad roll, and this goes another round. Assuming an 18 dex and weapon finesse the rogue has +7, +9 on the flank. So he hits 66% of the time, if both hit, he got lucky, but its within the realm of reason. 3 Lucky rolls: cost to the party, 1 cure mod, 1 fireball. At 5th level, ouch. How about this: Same start: Wizard casts fireball, wolf passes save, takes 8 damage. Wolf hits wizzy for 14. Cleric casts Inflict Serious and does 18 damage (wolf has taken 26). Fighter misses. Rogue gets the flank, but misses (can't full attack since he moved). Wizard full retreats. Wolf hits rogue for 14. Cleric takes a 5 foot and cast CMW on the rogue for 14. fighter hits for 20, rogue finished him off. Cleric heals wizzy with a CMW for 14. Spells used: 1 fireball 2x CMW, 1x ISW. In a slightly different version, the wolf crits on the wizard and kills him in one shot. Losing 1 out of 4 party members certainly qualifeis as 20%...
ArchonJohn 06-14-07, 08:14 PM	Why would Con be the fighter's primary stat? Why wouldn't Con be any characters primary stat? Con says 'I have life' - which also means that the Cleric isn't forced to yell "LIVE!" as much. Con is sexy. Period. If the encounters use of less than 1/5 of the resources, make more challenging encouners. Like... 40 winter wolves instead of 1. ;)
Lykor 06-14-07, 09:02 PM	Con usually isn't a primary stat because it doesn't help you kill stuff. Str/Dex lets you hit, int/wis/cha give spells, but con (while helpful) doesn't give a damage boost.
Cartigan 06-14-07, 09:11 PM	Why wouldn't Con be any characters primary stat? Con says 'I have life' - which also means that the Cleric isn't forced to yell "LIVE!" as much. Con is sexy. Period. If your job is "team punching bag."
Kaldric 06-14-07, 09:24 PM	Since I use the Magic Item Compendium random tables to distribute loot, my players don't get +2 stat items until around 8th-10th level. A VOP guy gets his first enhancement at 7th level. A fifth level party all having +2 stat items is a wee bit overpowered. If they were normally equipped, they'd need to expend buff spells to get those stats, or use scrolls. And thus use up the expected amount of resources.
Edymnion 06-14-07, 09:35 PM	Why wouldn't Con be any characters primary stat? Con says 'I have life' - which also means that the Cleric isn't forced to yell "LIVE!" as much.Well, for most characters, if you're taking more than token HP damage, you're doing something wrong.
Blackstorm_SK 06-14-07, 10:05 PM	Why wouldn't Con be any characters primary stat? Con says 'I have life' - which also means that the Cleric isn't forced to yell "LIVE!" as much. Con is sexy. Period. If the encounters use of less than 1/5 of the resources, make more challenging encouners. Like... 40 winter wolves instead of 1. ;) Overkiller. Get 3 winter wolves. It seems a 20% each, a 60% whole, yup? :D Bye bye wizzy! Cleric, cure those poor souls... Rouge, fighter, get down. And stay down(trip rulez :D ) ... oh, I almost forgot... 4d6x3 cone of cold is at least 6d6, assuming all save. The rogue is get ok, but the rest... 6d6 every 1d4 round. 1.Breath 2.Run. 2.Then return. 3.Then 1. 4.Then fight. Goodbye, party.
Empirate 06-15-07, 04:22 AM	Don't think about single monsters. Think about pairs of CR3 monsters. Two medium Air Elementals? Ouch, whirlwind! Two Quasits? Ouch, flight, poison, invisibility!
lastknightleft 06-15-07, 10:54 AM	ALWAYS memorize inflict spells, because if you need later, they can just be dropped for healing, but they come in really useful. what if you're character doesn't think inflict spells are something his god would appreciate. I hate when people say ALWAYS, nothing against you, but each character should be unique. not every cleric should run around with IW spells just because it makes tactical sense. To the OP yeah just make sure there are 4 encounters in a single day and more downtime between days like that instead of 1 encounter every day. And your right sometimes players can get lucky and beat an encounter without wasting more than 1/8, but you should be as clever as you players and sometimes have them using 1/2 their resources on an =CR encounter.
Escef 06-15-07, 11:10 AM	Lets say that they all have 16 in their primary stat, 14 in their secondary stat, and 12/10 in the rest. The system is also balanced for a party built using 25 point buy. A 16, a 14, and four 10's is already at 26 (if those 10's were 12's it'd be a 34 point buy). Also, the CR system seems to assume that players are idiots with no true grasp of tactics. Additionally, folks are right, not all creatures of a given CR are equal. A large fire elemental is a CR 5 and a slight bit tougher. Keep in mind that monsters are also sub-optimally statted out, the Tarrasque has 6 of its feat slots filled with Toughness despite the fact that it qualifies for Epic feats. If you feel an encounter was too easy award less XP for it.
Phrennzy 06-15-07, 11:44 AM	An average fireball from a 5th level wizzy deals about 17 damage. Which is 8 after the wolf fails its save. Winter Wolves have the cold subtype and has vulnerability to fire, which means it takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from fire, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure. Inflict Serious Wounds is a touch attack spell. The cleric will incur an attack of opportunity from the wolf, which will likely bite(dealing an average of 14 damage) and use a free action to trip the cleric (extraordinary ability). Casting defensively is not completely reliable at this level, so that's an iffy. Unless I am mistaken, anyone using a touch spell is considered armed, and so the cleric would not suffer the AoO. However - I would consider the use of 2 third level spells to be a considerable resource expenditure for a 5th level party, especially at the start of the day when they are fully loaded. Any damage caused by the wolf requires the use of even more resources. Also, it is a fact that a single creature is much easier to defeat than multiple creatures. Take two ogres, for example. A much tougher fight than one Winter Wolf.
Selgard 06-15-07, 12:00 PM	Changing the Cleric's deity to Wee Jas solves the Inflict problem (assuming there is a problem anyway.) The main point of the Inflict argument though being this- You can't say" If you use this tactic, the CR guidelines don't balance, ergo CR doesn't work" and then refuse to utilize any other (non-cheezy) tactic that a reasonable group might employ. If your group refuses to utliize the best reasonable spells at their disposal, then it isn't the CR system that is broken- regardless of the reasons you give for not using the best spells at their disposal.
carcrazy202 06-15-07, 12:40 PM	Escef, I think that it is more that the CR system assumes that the DM will play the monsters to the best of their abilities, which unfortunatly fails to happen in most games. :P
TarlSS 06-15-07, 01:11 PM	Hitting any party five tims in a day with equal CR encounters will probably do them in. Not just in terms of magic and resources, but also mental. Running through that many combats is stressful. Buffs start to wear off, 1/day abilities run out. Not to mention, what if you select many different encounter times? Perhaps an intelligent enemy waits for a PC to use the bathroom, and ambushes him while his pants are down. Perhaps they ambush at night and get some free shots in while everyone is getting up. Eventually PCs get so paranoid they're forced to sleep in the day, and stay at night where the limits of thier vision are not as good, etc. The players themselves will likely feel the grind of combat, and start making mistakes. 1's will be rolled, and they will be critically hit. You can preclude things like CLW wands by a constant onslaught of attacks. And yeah, the CR system is nothing but a guideline, and generally an unreliable one. But frankly it's the only other tool than your gut feeling, and probably the two are best used toghether.
The man they call Boxhead 06-15-07, 04:13 PM	Much like what has already been said, but what happens when a second Winter Wolf attacks? Does the Wizard still have an offensive 3rd level spell? How many 3rd level Cures does the Cleric want to use? If the Winter wolf breathes, everyone takes a bit of damage. Now, how about the 3rd Winter Wolf? (Yes, it's a monotonous crawl). The wizard is certainly down to 2nd or 1st level spells by now (assuming he's a pure blaster). The heals don't help as much from the Cleric. The fighter or rogue may not start at full hp for the encounter. Now the fourth Winter Wolf in a row. This one they'll feel for sure. A smart party will have resources left to deal with it, but not one that used it's high-level stuff too early in the day. Thus this fight will likely be one they just scrape by... A fifth will likely kill them. That's how CR works.
solbergb 06-15-07, 05:54 PM	An average party of 5th level just killed a creature of equal CR to them, all the while expending all of 2 3rd level spells, and 1 2nd. How is that a fifth of thier resources for the day? Well for primary spellcasters, your "combat resources" are pretty much your two top tiers of spells. The lower tiers are generally used for utility spells or buffing, or special circumstance spells such as silence or glitterdust (being quiet or making invisible visible is useful at any level). So for a level 5 party, of four people, with a cleric and a wizard, they've got about 5 top tier arcane spells and 7 top tier divine spells. And you just burned 1/5 of the arcane and 2/7 of the divine spells. The only resource the fighter and rogue have is hitpoints, and to refresh those, you needed one of those divine spells. So yeah, you did burn 1/5 of their meaningful X/day resources. When the wizard and cleric run out of level 2 and 3 spells, the party is usually looking for a way to hide and rest - consider that winter wolf encounter with the fighter and rogue doing most of the work and the cleric being a low bab/no feat/moderate to low strength melee and the wizard being a half-BAB crossbowman. The party will win, but they'll be mauled and need to burn consumables to heal. That party facing an actually dangerous encounter (EL+2 or EL+3) is going to be hosed lacking its L2-3 spells.
Dunsel 06-15-07, 07:41 PM	I just attack the PCs until they get "that look" in their eyes. You know the look, "Oh crap, one more encounter and I'm toast." It is at this point I let them rest.
Lootus 06-15-07, 10:03 PM	Even though it's not the best example (Winter Wolves are described as attacking in packs), I agree that the issue Rumple is pointing out is a valid and important one. There is a lot of information that is implied or assumed with most creatures' Challenge Ratings. A creature should not have to rely on lucky rolls or tactics such as ambushing the party's unarmored spellcaster in order to have a shot at doing its job. A Winter Wolf encountered as part of a pack earns its Challenge Rating of 5, whereas one encountered by itself might not. Even though the Organization and Combat sections of the Winter Wolf's entry indicate that it's part of a pack, nowhere do the rules say, "CR 5 (in pack)", even though it is pretty obvious that this is the situation in which the creature is intended to be encountered. This particular entry is a simple one that relates to the original example given, however not all creature entries are anywhere near this easy to figure out. Before I continue, I want to make two notes. This first is that the newer Monster Manuals have tried to do a better job of explaining just how a monster is supposed to threaten the PC's or use its abilities, and the new MM even has examples of entire encounters and maps, which I think is great. The second note is that the DMG attempts to address this problem on page 39, by stating that experience awards can be scaled down, based on how circumstances have helped make the fight easier for the PC's. However, I don't believe that these are a sufficient answer to the problem at hand - namely, inadequately labeled Challenge Ratings.
Empirate 06-19-07, 08:40 AM	I'm afraid I have to disagree completely, Lootus. Why on earth shouldn't a monster use tactics to account for its Challenge Rating? Each and every monster should use its options to the best of its abilities. For Winter Wolves, this means sneaking up on the party and probably opening with their breath weapon in the surprise round, then attacking the least-armored character on their first turn. This tactic is what makes WWs a challenge. Shouldn't a dragon or other flying opponent use its flight, combined with feats such as Flyby Attack and Snatch, tactically? Shouldn't a spellcasting creature employ its spells or SLAs tactically? If you say CR is just about BAB, HD and damage output, you're missing some important part of what the challenge in a fight is about. On the other hand, IMHO you're taking the interpretation of the fluff text a bit too far if you say Winter Wolves are supposed to attack in packs, and that this is what makes them challenging: One, a single Winter Wolf can pack quite a punch if it employs its abilities tactically. Two, once there's a pack of Winter Wolves, the only thing that makes them more challenging than a bunch of single Winter Wolves is if they use group tactics to work together: Flanking, singling out weak individuals for massed attacks, breathing into melee... So what exactly are you getting at? Tactics are a substantial part of "what a monster can do to you". And that is what accounts for the monster's CR.
Kimokeo 06-19-07, 09:25 AM	Raising a stat by 2 is hardly overpowering. As for the wizard, the issue is distance to target. Fireball against one target? Hardly. I'd probably be thinking Scorching Ray 4d6 ranged touch. Magic Missile is 2-5 x 3. 3.5x3 =10.5 dam avg. Since I believe in preservation, I'd probably be levitating or flying as a wizard. Put the 20' space between me and that wolf. Now, the wizard is watching his three friend fight for it while he happily is safe. As an elven wizard, the bow comes out if spell won't do. Touch base spells for the cleric? I'd be thinking buff the party or self spells. Rushing up to the WW isn't what my cleric would be doing. Fighter probably will take the breath weapon damage full force. 4d6, avg 3.5x4 = 14pts. The WW bites with an extra 1d6 cold. Trips which it'll probably succeed at least one. My rogue would be sniping with his bow. I just keep thinking what a breath weapon, 14pt damage does to this party: Fighter HP:52 (38 left) Wizard HP:19 (5 left) Rogue HP:25 (11 left/18 left with save) Cleric HP:31 (17 left) The wolf has a 50' move. It's going to keep moving, breathing, and take down the loner. Considering at least a spell from the wizard and cleric, and cure spells to catch up. That's using up resources. Even if a wand of CLW is used, that using up charges. We're only trying to use up 20% of resources. The group has a combined hpt total of 127 points. The wolf's breath weapon, striking all four (with the rogue saving) loses 49 hpts. 1/3 of the groups total hitpoints in one breath. If the wolf attacks the Wizard, he's probably dying and you just lost 1/4 of the group and a number of attack spells. The rogue and cleric don't fare to well after a bite and trip. Chances are, the second attack on the rogue or cleric and they're dying and the healer is unconscious. This could easily be a deadly encounter for at least one character.
Onikani 06-19-07, 10:23 AM	not to nitpick, but by this stage (level 5) the rogue has evasion... Your numbers are a little off... But don't sweat it, i also screwed up my math in this thread. :D
Madfox11 06-19-07, 11:31 AM	From my experience with LG there are a few things to keep in mind: - Single opponents do not fit the EL mold very well. At low levels they can be extremely deadly (1 assassin vine at APL 1), while at higher APLs they are dead before they can move due to the single target focus. - If the CR of a creature is dependend on one single save-or-die like effect their true threat becomes all the more difficult to predict. If your players roll crap, it is a TPK. If not, they tend to have killed the creature without a sweat... (think basilisk, bodak) - Large groups of opponents do not fit the mold very well, but the DMG actually already warns for this effect. They tend to be too weak to affect the PCs at all. - CR and EL are average values that generate a baseline, but although the DMG states that the baseline is EL = APL, the reality is that this baseline changes a bit over the levels. It has a tendency to increase the higher level a group becomes - meaning you need stronger encounters to actually drain that 20%. - Timing of the encounters is vital. If you are running a dungeon crawl and the PCs are aware of it, they tend to have mid-duration spells running throughout the whole adventure, making them that much tougher. On the other hand, if you pace those 4 encounters spread over the whole 24 hours it suddenly becomes all the nastier. - Since these are average values, they tend to work quiet well in convention play where the groups actually are unknown. In a home campaign you need to adapt it to your group since they tend to have specific known strong and weak points. For example, trolls proved to be easy for our group, but we are terrified at the prospect of facing a couple of grells (no wizard, and cork tactics we use to protect the ranged fighters do not work very well when the opponent can fly over the cork).
Archangel62 06-19-07, 11:52 AM	If you want to look at the CR system issues take a look at my CR analysis in my sig, it goes over the problems that the CR system has if not applied carefully.
Alyri 06-19-07, 12:05 PM	The system is also balanced for a party built using 25 point buy. A 16, a 14, and four 10's is already at 26 (if those 10's were 12's it'd be a 34 point buy). Also, the CR system seems to assume that players are idiots with no true grasp of tactics. I've never been a fan of this concept. The system isn't balanced with a party using the elite array. Have to remember that most of the humaniods we come up against are not what we would consider to be 'adventurers'
BW0222 06-19-07, 01:04 PM	Rumple_Cragstan, But it really doesn't. ... Your example is completely off. First, the winter wolf is normally encountered in cold forests. It is intelligent and cunning. It has reasonable hide checks, scent, and improved initiative. And yet... you have fireballed it at a distance, nearly every PC has gone first, and the creature is played neither intelligently nor with any cunning. If a creature isn't within its environment, can't use its abilities (like improved intiative, breath weapons,etc.) then subtract two or three from the EL. Let's see how this should be played. A group of PCs is moving along the trail in a cold forest. A winterwolf, picks up their trail via scent and decides to go hunting. It's smart. It stays back a few hundred feet in the trees (none of the PCs make make DC 30+ spot checks) observing the party. It sees two heavily armored folks, a lightly armed guy, an unarmored guy, and a weasel (the wizard's familiar). Ok, it continues following from a distance using scent. The group stops and makes camp. It waits until about three hours after dark and comes in silently from down wind and smells for one of the unarmed folks to be on guard duty. Say the rogue. Even if the rogue has good spots (say +10) he can't see past 30' or so from the camp fire. The wolf will easily get within 30' before anyone can even get a spot check. The weasel (if awake) is about their only hope. The winter wolf moves to the tent and (being large) pulls it down over top of the three inside. Round 1. Rogues goes first (lucky) draws a bow and shoots the winter wolf (4hp). Winter wolf blasts the collapsed tent for 18hp of cold damage and moves to the rogue. Fighter stands, quick draws a weapon, and cuts his way out of the tent. The cleric stands and casts a cure spell to keep the wizard alive. Wizard stands and casts mage armor. Round 2. The rogue drops his bow, draws a shortsword and readies an action to attack for when the fighter gets behind the wolf. The winter wolf attacks the rogue for 12hp of damage, trips him, and then moves 50' into the darkness. The rogue gets an AoO (at -4 due to being prone) and misses. Fighter moves over to the rogue. Wizard gets out of the tent and moves to the rogue. Cleric gets out of the tend and moves to the rogue. etc., etc. Group took about 50hp of damage total, the wizard was nearly killed, the cleric used several 2nd and 1st-level spells for healing, the tent is toast, and the wolf (down 4hp), can repeat this all night -- or until the PC get some serious precautions up -- double-duty guard shifts, traps, etc. Even if the wolf does this say one more time (just before dawn) the wizard won't get his 8 hours of rest and in any case the cleric isn't getting spells back in the morning -- since he cast these spells within 8 hours of dawn. And that isn't even being brutal. The wolf could have been mean and just gone for the weasel, then ran off (-1000xp that's fun!). If the PCs have mules or pack animals, he could just kill them. He could have gotten the wizard or cleric on guard duty shift -- likely killing them before the others could get out of the tent. He would trail behind them until someone gets too far away from the party. Say someone 100' for the camp gathering firewood. It could repeat single round breath weapon attacks every three to five hours at night such that the spell casters are virtually out of spells each night. etc., etc. Played properly, EL = APL should use a reasonable amount of resources. All you have proven is that your DM isn't playing monsters to their potential.
Escef 06-19-07, 01:09 PM	I just keep thinking what a breath weapon, 14pt damage does to this party: Fighter HP:52 (38 left) Wizard HP:19 (5 left) Rogue HP:25 (11 left/18 left with save) Cleric HP:31 (17 left) Rogue has 25 left with a successful save: evasion. Just sayin'.
Dan Hemmens 06-19-07, 01:17 PM	I think it's also worth pointing out that your "daily" Hit Points is only equal to your character level. That's what you get back with rest. So a level 5 party has a "daily" HP total of 20. That's the number of Hit Points they can lose before they're worse off tomorrow than they were today. 20% of 20 is 4. If you lose a bunch of hit points, and use all your healing magic, then tomorrow you've got to either use all your healing in advance (bad) or go into fights half battered (equally bad).
Kimokeo 06-19-07, 01:48 PM	Rogue HP:25 (11 left/25 left with save) ok. The scenario of the evening fight is another thing to consider. The fighter and cleric probably have no armor on and that will make the WW even more of a danger to them. Without a light source, WW's darkvision at night is also another major tactical advantage. Is the Rogue by the campfire, or hiding while on watch. Does the party members know where to find the Rogue in the night? Campfires out in the wild - isn't it great to inform the whole world where you are?
solbergb 06-19-07, 04:47 PM	Rogue HP:25 (11 left/25 left with save) ok. Campfires out in the wild - isn't it great to inform the whole world where you are? Yeah, well, the alternative is endure elements for everyone in the kind of woods where a winter wolf roams. Consuming more resources. Also the fire provides light for the PC's who can't naturally see in the dark, which can also be a problem in a forest situation with sky overcast at night even for those with lowlight.
Lootus 06-20-07, 12:45 AM	So what exactly are you getting at? Tactics are a substantial part of "what a monster can do to you". And that is what accounts for the monster's CR. Sorry for being unclear (and using an incorrect example). I agree that a creature’s tactics are included in the CR that is assigned to them. What I was trying to say is related to that fact. If a creature employs more challenging tactics than it was designed for, or less effective tactics than what it was designed for, the effective CR may go up or down, respectively. Of course, “tactics” not only includes a creature’s actions as they relate to combat, but also the entire encounter (environment and circumstances under which it is encountered). A better example might be the Tyrannosaurus. Maybe it would be ideal for it to ambush the party and use its surprise round to swallow the wizard. But it’s not designed to be an ambusher. If it benefits from an environment where it can ambush, it would seem that a higher CR is in order. Examples: An “ambusher” creature that does not attempt to gain surprise (or can’t due to improper environment or circumstances) means a lower effective CR. A “mastermind” creature that has no minions, special setup, or contingency plans, means a lower effective CR. A “destroyer” creature, meant to engage a group of PC’s head-on, encountered in an ambush situation or very favorable environment, means a higher effective CR. Of course, this idea doesn’t apply to situations where the PC’s have neutralized or carefully avoided a creature’s tactic – it’s when the creature doesn’t attempt to - or can’t (through no action of the PC’s) - execute tactics that make it a challenge (or a DM chooses to use a creature differently). So, even though a creature’s tactics are quite clearly thought of and calculated into a creature’s entry (CR, description, etc.), nowhere does it say, “lower/raise this creature’s CR by X if you don’t do things in this way”. Even if a creature’s relation between its abilities and tactics is obvious (or its preferred tactics are spelled out for you), I think that something as critical as the CR rules, which govern the rate at which characters rise in level, could at least benefit from some more guidelines. Perhaps boiling a creature’s tactics down to some keywords and including them in its entry could be a handy reference for adjusting XP awards. If a creature is used in a way that is not listed in its entry, a DM could consult a corresponding table and feel comfortable adjusting the CR up or down accordingly. For example: T-Rex, CR 8 (destroyer) Reading this entry, you would reference the description of destroyer and note that this means the creature can take the party in a head-on encounter. If you were to have it ambushing the party, the table might say to add +1 CR (for sake of example). The reverse would be true for an ambusher that isn’t going to ambush. And of course, a creature’s entry could list multiple types, and/or a combination of one or more types, in order to give it a correct categorization (more than the three I listed, of course). This would in no way tell a DM how they must use a creature in their encounters, only more clearly define how it uses its abilities and tactics in order to provide the correct challenge, and allow for a simple way for the DM to modify the CR if the creature is going to provide a different (easier or harder) type of challenge. (and, if after this adjustment, the encounter is still an equal level challenge, it will better conform to the guideline of the expenditure of 1/5th of party resources)
Leilond 06-20-07, 06:56 AM	I will try to summarize lot of usefull things said in this post 1) Put the monster in their proper environment, using their proper tactis or change their CR value, making it "higher" if you give them some unproper advantage, or making it "lower" if you give them unproper disadvantage 2) It isn't usually a good idea to use a single CR X monster. It usually work better to use two CR X-2 or three CR X-3 monster. For instance it is usually more interesnting an ecnounter with 2 ogres, or an ogres commanded by a 3rd level orc sorcerer, than a single winter wolf I is better to use three troll, than a single Behir. More tactic chance, more enemy to keep at by, more interesting encounter 3) Luck has his importance. If the players roll good and the DM roll bad, an encounter can end in a massacre... there's not way to prevent this
RadicalTaoist 06-20-07, 11:26 AM	I'm going to have to agree with the "it'll hurt by the fourth or fifth encounter" line of thought. It's not until then that you'll run out of Deep Slumbers, Glitterdusts, Pyrotechnics, and other spells which will pretty much bum rush the winter wolf and his weak Will save. Blinding, sleeping, and company will end the encounter. Even the lowly hidden dragon, Color Spray, costs the wolf a round the party will beat on him - a round he's stunned, giving the rogue free sneak attack (plus the chance to move to flank). CR always has to take tactics into play.
Downtym 06-20-07, 02:14 PM	How is that a fifth of thier resources for the day? This is what I have: Fighter, 5th level, human Attack: +9, AC: 20, HP: 52, Init +5 Str 14, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10; Saves: Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +1; Skills: Climb +10, Ride +9, Swim +10; Feats: Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Specialization (GreatSword); Gear: Amulet of Health +2, Full Plate +1, Greatsword +1, Other gear. Wizard, 5th level, human Attack: Ignored, AC: 12, HP: 19, Init: +2 Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10; Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +4; Skills: Concentration +9, Decipher Script +12, Knowledge (Arcana) +12, Spellcraft +12, Knowledge (Nature) +12, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +12; Feats: Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (Evocation), Greater Spell Focus (Evocation), Empower Spell; Gear: Headband of Intellect +2, Assortment of scrolls, potions, and wands. Spells: 4/4/3/2 Rogue, 5th level, human Attack: +8, AC: 19, HP: 25, Init: +4 Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10; Saves: Fort +2, Ref +8, Will +1; Skills: Spot +8, Listen +8, Search +8, Tumble +12, Hide +12, Move Silently +12, Climb +10, Jump +10, Escape Artist +12; Feats: Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility; Special: Sneak Attack +3d6, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +1, Evasion, Trapfinding; Gear: Gloves of Dexterity +2, +1 Chain Shirt, +1 Short sword Cleric, 5th level, human Attack: Ignored, AC: 22, HP 38, Init +5 Str 10, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10; Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +8; Skills: Concentration +10, Spellcraft +8, Knowledge (Religion) +8; Feats: Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Scribe Scroll; Gear: Full Plate +1, Heavy Steel Shield +1, Headband of Wisdom +2. Spells: 5/4+1/3+1/2+1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Assumptions: Party encounters a Winter Wolf (W) in its environment (Cold Forest). We're going to assume that we ignore trees, cold effects, cover and concealment, and movement modifiers for snow. Winter Wolf gets a +7 bonus to its Hide check for being in snow, so its Hide is a +6 total. For the purposes below, every roll will be average. Skill checks before combat are done as "Take a 10". Assume the party marches straight in file with the Fighter (F) out front, Rogue (R) second, Wizard (Z) third, and Cleric (C) fourth. The Winter Wolf hides at a +6, so 16 if it takes 10. The Rogue Spots at +8, so 18 if it takes 10. Encounter distance will occur at roughly 20 feet from the Rogue. Optimal combat under these assumptions would go something like this: W is spotted by R when he is 20 feet straight in front of R. Initiative is rolled. Assume W wins (W has +5, F +5, Z +2, R +4, C +5). W moves 25 feet towards the party and to one side; to where his breath weapon at the end of its 15 foot cone will hit F, R, and Z. Ref save DC for the breath is DC 16 F has +4 to Ref, fails on average. Z has +3 to Ref, fails on average. R has +8 to Ref, saves on average. F and Z take 14 damage each from 4d6 on average. Breath recharges in 2 rounds for W. F's HP: 38; Z's HP: 5 F goes. F moves 10 feet over to W and attacks. Assigns 5 points to Power Attack. F's attack roll is at a +4 versus W's AC of 15. F hits and deals 2d6 + 15 damage (22 on average). W's HP: 29 R goes. R moves 30 feet and tumbles to avoid AOO. Tumble DC is 15, R has +12 so gets a 23 on average. R succeeds to avoid AOO. R gets into flanking. R attacks W at a +10 versus W's AC of 15. R hits and deals 1d6 + 3d6 + 3 (17 on average). R assigns his dodge to W. W's HP: 12 Z goes. Z can fireball W, but that would hurt R and F. Z magic missiles W for 3d4 + 3 (10 on average). W's HP: 2. C goes. C can either close and attempt to finish off W or heal Z. C chooses to heal Z with a Cure Moderate (2nd level spell) for 2d8 + 5 (14 on average). Z's HP: 19 W goes. W attacks R. W's attack is at a +9 and R's AC is 20. W hits for 1d8 + 6 + 1d6 (cold) (14 on average). W attempts to trip R. W's trip is at a +8 versus R's +4 to resist. W wins and R eats dirt. W takes a 5 foot step away from F, but stays in position to threaten R. Doing this breaks flanking. R's HP: 11 At this point, F attacks and W is dead. C must use 14 points of healing on F to bring him back to full and 11 points of healing on R to bring him back to full. (2 Cure Moderate on average) At the end of the fight, everyone is back to full health. Z has expended 1 1st level spell and C has expended 3 2nd level spells. Total spell level consumption: Z: 1/16th spell levels (1 1st level spell from a total of 4 1st levels, 3 2nd, and 2 3rds); 1/9th of total spells (Discounting 0th). C: 6/22 spell levels (3 2nd level spells from a total of 5 1st levels, 4 2nd, and 3 3rds); 3/12th of total spells (Including Divine Spells in both totals). For a total of 7/38 spell levels and 4/21 total spells. HP's consumed in the fight: F: 14/52 Z: 14/19 R: 11/25 For a total of 39/134 (Ignoring Potential HPs from healing) Resources consumed during this fight: Spell levels: 18.4% (Non-replenishable) Total Spells: 19% (Non-replenishable) HP's: 29% Efficiency: Spell Levels: 81.6% Total Spells: 81% HP's: 71% ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Things to note: 1. This is an optimal situation for the party because the fight was a straightforward slugfest. The Winter Wolf was denied the use of its most advantageous powers (Low-light, Darkvision, Tracking, and a 50 speed which would have easily out stripped everyone in the party). 2. This scenario assumes no cover bonuses from ranged, no trees, and no movement penalties from the snow. Trees can be extremely important in this scenario because if Rogue had not gotten a sneak attack in, the wolf would have had 12 hit points (on average) at the beginning of round 2. 3. This scenario assumes that each of the characters rolled average. It's entirely possible that the Winter Wolf could have rolled extremely well on his Hide and Move Silently; allowing him to sneak up on the party and get a surprise round. Breathing on the surprise round followed by winning initiative and an early attack could easily kill the Wizard; or it could have seriously hurt the Cleric; or even killed the rogue. It's also entirely possible that the Wolf rolls poorly and is spotted much further away giving the party a greater advantage. Further, crits and failures happen 5% of the time. It's entirely possible that the fighter could have crit and with lucky rolling have killed the wolf outright. It's also entirely possible that the wolf could have crit and downed the rogue outright when he bit him (You're looking at a spread of 15 to 34 damage on a crit which averages out to 24.5. So, if the wolf had crit on the rogue, the rogue had a 50% chance of being at 1 hit point if we round down. Not odds I want to bet my life on). Also, on a lucky roll, the initial breath weapon could have possibly dropped the wizard to the negatives (Spread of 4 to 24 for an average of 14.). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- As it is, the wolf consumed almost 30% of the party's total health in *2* attacks. If the party had not killed it quickly, the amount of hit points used would have pushed over 50% of the party's total health when its breath weapon refreshed. Further, it consumed 18% of the total spell levels of the party and 19% of the party's total spells for the day. Even worse for the party, the spells consumed from the cleric were all but his Domain spells for second level spells. The Cleric lost about 27% of his total spell levels for the day in one fight. Considering that when he uses his 3rd level spells, he'll be down another 27%, the party could be in trouble if another Winter Wolf came around the corner. So, yeah. What was the issue again?
RadicalTaoist 06-20-07, 04:50 PM	1. This is an optimal situation for the party because the fight was a straightforward slugfest. The Winter Wolf was denied the use of its most advantageous powers (Low-light, Darkvision, Tracking, and a 50 speed which would have easily out stripped everyone in the party). I've got to take issue with this as the optimal situation isn't a direct slugfest but an easy beatdown after the Wizard nails the Wolf with the proper save-or-suck. But otherwise your analysis was very in-depth and well-done. :bow:
Kimokeo 06-20-07, 05:09 PM	A better example might be the Tyrannosaurus. Maybe it would be ideal for it to ambush the party and use its surprise round to swallow the wizard. A sneaking Tyrannosaurus? That is a great idea. A dinosaur, that large, with stealth capabilities...
Scipio 06-20-07, 06:10 PM	Much like what has already been said, but what happens when a second Winter Wolf attacks? Does the Wizard still have an offensive 3rd level spell? How many 3rd level Cures does the Cleric want to use? If the Winter wolf breathes, everyone takes a bit of damage. Now, how about the 3rd Winter Wolf? (Yes, it's a monotonous crawl). The wizard is certainly down to 2nd or 1st level spells by now (assuming he's a pure blaster). The heals don't help as much from the Cleric. The fighter or rogue may not start at full hp for the encounter. Now the fourth Winter Wolf in a row. This one they'll feel for sure. A smart party will have resources left to deal with it, but not one that used it's high-level stuff too early in the day. Thus this fight will likely be one they just scrape by... A fifth will likely kill them. That's how CR works. This is about right. It's not that every equal CR encounter will use 20% of the parties resources, its that on the average, they will.
Vharuck 06-20-07, 06:50 PM	Unless I am mistaken, anyone using a touch spell is considered armed, and so the cleric would not suffer the AoO. This is true, but it's the casting of the spell that provokes the AoO. I'm pretty sure a cleric can't cast IW, take a 5' step, then touch. To get that free touch it has to be at the end of the casting.
Vharuck 06-20-07, 06:56 PM	A sneaking Tyrannosaurus? That is a great idea. A dinosaur, that large, with stealth capabilities... I know the game I'm about to mention carries with a certain... disdain amongst many posters here, but anyways: Ever play World of Warcraft? There's a dense rain forest zone where myriad dinosaurs roam. However, the worst two are modeled after the T-rex. Funny thing is that creatures only make sounds when in combat. Also, size didn't matter when determining how far away an object could be seen; this was limited to a set distance for dynamic objects in order to reduce lag. So, many times while happily beating down one of the zone's normal denizens, I was caught by surprise by a three story tall T-rex. I swear, it's stealth would put any ninja to shame.
Dan Hemmens 06-20-07, 06:59 PM	A better example might be the Tyrannosaurus. Maybe it would be ideal for it to ambush the party and use its surprise round to swallow the wizard. A sneaking Tyrannosaurus? That is a great idea. A dinosaur, that large, with stealth capabilities... Sounds rather like a lot of Living Greyhawk modules I've heard about. "And then a bunch of dire elephants attack: with surprise!"
Some_call_me_Tim 06-20-07, 07:04 PM	Of course, one must wonder why the winter wolf didn't breathe rather than biting. This is a real good point. If you assume he catches everyone in the AoE and everyone saves (rogue evades) the wolf rolls average damage that is still 14 points of damage to three characters with is about 1/3 of the party's total hit points. Plus that will take three cure moderate wounds spells to fix. Add that to what they need to defeat the critter and yes it does take a considerable chunk of resources.
Some_call_me_Tim 06-20-07, 07:08 PM	This is true, but it's the casting of the spell that provokes the AoO. I'm pretty sure a cleric can't cast IW, take a 5' step, then touch. To get that free touch it has to be at the end of the casting.Per the SRD: "In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target." While it doesn't specifically mention the 5-foot step, I think it is pretty safe to say that was the intention.
Vharuck 06-20-07, 07:11 PM	Per the SRD: "In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target." While it doesn't specifically mention the 5-foot step, I think it is pretty safe to say that was the intention. Wow, touch spells are much better than I thought. Thanks for the correction!
Downtym 06-20-07, 07:15 PM	I know the game I'm about to mention carries with a certain... disdain amongst many posters here, but anyways: Ever play World of Warcraft? There's a dense rain forest zone where myriad dinosaurs roam. However, the worst two are modeled after the T-rex. Funny thing is that creatures only make sounds when in combat. Also, size didn't matter when determining how far away an object could be seen; this was limited to a set distance for dynamic objects in order to reduce lag. So, many times while happily beating down one of the zone's normal denizens, I was caught by surprise by a three story tall T-rex. I swear, it's stealth would put any ninja to shame. There's a great comic from Machall (From http://www.machall.com/) that references this: http://www.machall.com/view.php?date=2005-02-07 Trexv("DANG I'M HUGE!");
yrogerg 06-20-07, 09:41 PM	Unless I am mistaken, anyone using a touch spell is considered armed, and so the cleric would not suffer the AoO. Mistaken! Well... sorta. You are correct that someone using a touch spell is considered armed, and thus aren't subject to the AoO that someone, say, using an unarmed strike would be, but someone casting a touch spell is still subject to spellcasting-related AoOs. Plus, an Winter Wolf is Large, so in order to cast and inflict in the same round, he would need to start off by casting the spell in a threatened square.
yrogerg 06-20-07, 09:44 PM	Per the SRD: "In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target." While it doesn't specifically mention the 5-foot step, I think it is pretty safe to say that was the intention. ::Agreement:: However, Winter Wolves are Large. Ergo, AoO.
BW0222 06-20-07, 09:44 PM	Downtym, We could come up with scenerios all day. My issue is why would the WW attack a prepared party in broad daylight out in the open? It has darkvision, scent, and reasonable stealth abilities. It understands that folks have big swords, spells, and other nasty abilities. It knows that humans can't see in the dark, that they eventually have to sleep or rest, without armor and weapons handy, etc. It can even speak. Normal wolves will follow a herd for days, attack a weaker member when it is alone or resting, and will make repeated hit and run attacks. Yet... this one can't even figure out how to gain a surprise round, use hit and run tactics, wait until dark, smell trails, leave false clues in the snow, notice folks that aren't hiding across a plain, etc.? If you are going to play it an intelligence and wisdom of 3 or something, then either lower the APL by 3, give it a few levels of barbarian or something, or feeblemind the PCs before the fight that it is somewhat fair. Party encounters a Winter Wolf (W) in its environment (Cold Forest). ... 2. This scenario assumes no cover bonuses from ranged, no trees, and no movement penalties from the snow Cold forest without trees? Why doesn't the WW wait until they move into an area with trees so he has concealment and can sneak up? Why not bury himself in snow behind a tree on the trail and start close enough to breath in the surprise round? Why not wait until dark and cry "Help" and lead them into a snow covered pit trap or circle around and destroy their tents, bedrolls, and carry off a few back packs? Why not say 100' away at night and demand 500gp and half their food or it will howl/sing "Harry had a little halfling." until some frost giants or ice trolls come along? IMO, your WW is a moron. In my example at least played the beast to the level of intelligence and wisdom it has. Playing him really nasty isn't required for the ECL. However, playing him that dumb is a good example of why many folks don't think a CR 5 creature is an adequate challenge.
Draginja 06-20-07, 09:58 PM	Consider these... Fighter,Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, Bard. All Lvl 8. Against one mind flayer (or dragon). Mind Flayer (or dragon) eats bard's brain (or entire bard). Bam. 1/5 of the party consumed. Problem solved.
BW0222 06-20-07, 10:39 PM	yrogerg, ::Agreement:: However, Winter Wolves are Large. Ergo, AoO. Winter wolves may be large by they only have a 5' reach. There is no AoOs from a WW if your take the action 10' away. Someone exactly 10' away could cast, 5' step, and then touch. You can take a 5' step during the spell casting. You only provoke AoOs when you start an action, so the WW doesn't get an AoO if you move once you start the action.
Man in the Funny Hat 06-21-07, 12:46 AM	Ok, I realized something thats written in the DMG that we all take for granted appears to be incorrect.In discussing this topic you must first and foremost accept that CR and EVERYTHING associated with it is not science. CR exists for two basic reasons: to calculate XP for encounters, and to ASSIST - not FORMULIZE but merely assist - in encounter DESIGN. Why can't you consider CR and encounter creation a science, you may ask? Because you CANNOT account for all the variables that can nonetheless significantly affect encounters. Encounters need a certain amount of design. To a VERY limited extent you can just plug-and-play with numbers for CR, EL, and party level but it's not going to be a very pleasing result. That alone will not make your encounters "predictable" because your party can be of slightly lower or higher level, have more or less gear, have more or less EFFECTIVE gear even though the gp value is in the target range, the PC's can have an effective plan of attack or be feckless and uncoordinated, you can run the monsters with cunning and skill or just listlessly have them run through standard attack routines by rote, terrain can favor one side or another, and on and on and on. In actually reading the DMG information on Encounters and putting them together you will understand that CR is a mere tool. It is something in the game that helps to provide something reasonably like a baseline from which to create encounters. The numbers are not dead-on-balls-accurate, but they are at least reasonably reliable. It doesn't say on p.49 that the PC's WILL incur 20% losses of hp and so forth - it says that if the encounter is an EL equal to the party level then they should expend about 20% of their resources. Text on the following page repeats this equivocation in describing a "Challenging" encounter [one where EL=party level] - the average group should be able to handle four such encounters before running low on resources. CR and EL will not run your game for you and make it EITHER predictable or interesting. YOU are really responsible for both and you're about guaranteed not to succeed consistently at them unless you DM by using The Force or some similar mystical intuition. Encounter design really only STARTS with CR and EL, it doesn't END there. The DMG also says that EL=Party Level is not for EVERY encounter. Encounters need variety in difficulty as well from cakewalks to knock-down-drag-out TPK's-in-the-making - and you'll note that it doesn't go into more than vague notions of what kind of drain those easier/tougher encounters will have on resources. It is not titled the Dungeon Master's GUIDE without good reason. Don't use it like a textbook.
Phrennzy 06-21-07, 10:01 AM	Mistaken! Well... sorta. You are correct that someone using a touch spell is considered armed, and thus aren't subject to the AoO that someone, say, using an unarmed strike would be, but someone casting a touch spell is still subject to spellcasting-related AoOs. Plus, an Winter Wolf is Large, so in order to cast and inflict in the same round, he would need to start off by casting the spell in a threatened square. You can cast the touch spell, move your move (30' or so) and deliver the touch attack all in the same round. Winter Wolves are large, but they are quadrupeds. They have a 5', not a 10', reach. Now, casting a touch spell on an orge is much more difficult...
Sunic_Flames 06-21-07, 10:40 AM	Downtym, We could come up with scenerios all day. *snip* Why doesn't the WW wait until they move into an area with trees so he has concealment and can sneak up? Why not bury himself in snow behind a tree on the trail and start close enough to breath in the surprise round? Why not wait until dark and cry "Help" and lead them into a snow covered pit trap or circle around and destroy their tents, bedrolls, and carry off a few back packs? Why not say 100' away at night and demand 500gp and half their food or it will howl/sing "Harry had a little halfling." until some frost giants or ice trolls come along? Now this is just pure awesome, and :rofl:. *withdraws :cookie: from pack, passes it over*
Downtym 06-21-07, 12:17 PM	Mistaken! Well... sorta. You are correct that someone using a touch spell is considered armed, and thus aren't subject to the AoO that someone, say, using an unarmed strike would be, but someone casting a touch spell is still subject to spellcasting-related AoOs. Plus, an Winter Wolf is Large, so in order to cast and inflict in the same round, he would need to start off by casting the spell in a threatened square. Winter Wolves have a 10 foot space, but only a 5 foot reach.
Downtym 06-21-07, 01:25 PM	My issue is why would the WW attack a prepared party in broad daylight out in the open? Because I wanted to give the party every advantage it could have against a "stupid" Winter Wolf in order to minimize the amount of resources that the party would use (Assuming "Average Rolls"). The scenario I present is the one I tend to mentally run through in order to feel out a bad guy. I put the two sides on effectively even ground and run the combat out using a mechanical process of putting everyone where I think they could be best used. Obviously, I could have changed some tactical decisions here and there. The Fighter and Rogue could have held actions for the Wizard to Fireball (The Cleric would not have had to cast a cure mod on the Rogue, but a cure mod is second level while fireball is third, so Total Spell Levels stays the same. Total Spells used would be reduced by 1, for a total of 14% of spells used in this fight. But, the Wizard's Spell Levels used would have increased to a whopping *18%* from the casting of that one spell. And HP consumption would have been about 20.9% for that fight. Given those facts, I decided it was best for the Wizard to hold back on the fireball and use a Magic Missile). Also, the Fighter and Cleric both had Improved Initiative which is a feat which I feel is useful in changing the flow of combat, but it often appears that PC's don't take Improved Initiative at least from anectdotal evidence. So, it's entirely possible that the Fighter or Cleric could have gone first and changed the battle layout in interesting ways. I feel, however, that the scenario I laid out, if not optimal for the party while taking into consideration the threat of the Winter Wolf, is certainly up there in displaying how battle will go on average. My purpose, in that scenario, was to place the monster across the street from the party at a reasonable range and ask myself, "Okay, would this be an equal level CR given this setup?" The answer, I found, is yes. Further, the setup was purposefully weighted in the PC's direction by removing the influence of all environmental factors and "playing the Winter Wolf" as a straight up "Bash your head in" monster. It has darkvision, scent, and reasonable stealth abilities. It understands that folks have big swords, spells, and other nasty abilities. It knows that humans can't see in the dark, that they eventually have to sleep or rest, without armor and weapons handy, etc. It can even speak. I pointed all of this out in (1). The Winter Wolf was denied its greatest advantages - the implication of which is that it should be used as a night time attacker if you want to make it extremely useful. As I stated, my scenario was purposefully weighted for the players to try to minimize resource usage. The only concessions I gave the Winter Wolf were 1) It gets it's +7 to hide in snowy areas. 2) It actively hides from the party. 3) It wins initiative. 4) The party marches single file. None of these 3 concessions rise to the level of being unfair for the Winter Wolf, in my opinion. Normal wolves will follow a herd for days, attack a weaker member when it is alone or resting, and will make repeated hit and run attacks. Yet... this one can't even figure out how to gain a surprise round, use hit and run tactics, wait until dark, smell trails, leave false clues in the snow, notice folks that aren't hiding across a plain, etc.? All of these would obviously INCREASE the amount of party resources used. As I was trying to counter the original poster's thesis, I felt it more appropriate to attack this by assuming his thesis was correct and apply it. This is sort of like using science to blind. Note that even without any of its significant strategic advantages, which you so happily point out, the Winter Wolf can easily consume 20% of the party's resources. Cold forest without trees? Once again, trying to minimize the party's losses. The method I applied here was a minimization to show that as you removed my assumptions, the party was in a worse position. One can theorize because they are in a worse position, their resource usage would increase - or at least be sub-optimal. Why doesn't the WW wait until they move into an area with trees so he has concealment and can sneak up? Why not bury himself in snow behind a tree on the trail and start close enough to breath in the surprise round? Why not wait until dark and cry "Help" and lead them into a snow covered pit trap or circle around and destroy their tents, bedrolls, and carry off a few back packs? Why not say 100' away at night and demand 500gp and half their food or it will howl/sing "Harry had a little halfling." until some frost giants or ice trolls come along? All excellent points which only show the party will be worse off and will probably use *more* than the small number of resources I outlined. IMO, your WW is a moron. In my example at least played the beast to the level of intelligence and wisdom it has. Thank you, that was my point entirely. However, playing him that dumb is a good example of why many folks don't think a CR 5 creature is an adequate challenge. He was an adequate challenge, though! Even a "moron[ic]" Winter Wolf managed to consume a good 20% of the party's resources (This was the point that so cleverly eluded you)! In 2 attacks, the Winter Wolf managed to consume 18.4% of the party's Total Spell Levels for the Day (Non-replenishable), 19% of the party's Total Spells for the Day (Non-replenishable), and 29% of the party's Total HP! That's a freaking dangerous Wolf! Not to mention, the spell levels it did use were the medium levels which are usually the most efficient (Both in power to spell level and efficiency ways). If there had been 2, the party would have lost the Wizard on the initial attack, putting them into the realm of a close "TPK" very quickly. Not to mention that the Fighter and Rogue would have been very close to being overwhelmed by 2 Winter Wolves beating on them. Assuming that the Second Winter Wolf gets into the mirror opposite position from the First (W in my scenario above); F would be down another 14 hit points in the first round of combat and Z would have been at *-9*. Assuming the fight still goes the way it goes, the second Winter Wolf could quickly move forward and attack Z again, putting him back down to -5 after C's heal. F would have to use an attack to finish the first Winter Wolf then move to threaten the second. Even assuming R could move into flanking, that means the second Winter Wolf will easily get a second attack. Assuming C uses a second cure mod on Z to bring him up to 9, Z uses a second magic missile on the Wolf, then on the Wolf's turn he hits Z again. Z goes to -2 and the Wolf is killed. So, at the end of the fight, the HP and resource total would be: F: 24 HP left; 28/52 HP used R: 14 HP left; 11/25 HP used Z: -2 HP left; 40/19 HP used, 2 1st level spells used (2 spell levels and 2 spells) C: 38 HP left; 0/38 HP used, 2 2nd level spells used (4 spell levels and 2 spells) (Total of 6 spell levels and 4 spells) To resupply the party, C would have to cast 1 Cure Light, 1 Cure Serious, and 1 Cure Minor (4 spell levels and 3 spells) on F, 1 Cure Light and 2 Cure Minors (1 spell level and 3 spells) on R, and 1 Cure Light and 1 Cure Moderate (3 spell levels and 2 spells) on Z. (I think this is the optimal spell number and spell level usage here, check my math) (Total of 8 spell levels and 8 spells) So, at the end of the fight against 2 *moronic* Winter Wolves, the party consumed Total spell level consumption: Z: 2/16th spell levels (2 1st level spells from a total of 4 0th level, 4 1st levels, 3 2nd, and 2 3rds); 2/13 of total spells (Discounting 0th). C: 12/22 spell levels (3 0th level spells, 3 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells, 1 3rd level spell from a total of 5 0th level, 5 1st levels, 4 2nd, and 3 3rds); 10/17 of total spells (Including Divine Spells in both totals). For a total of 14/38 spell levels and 12/30 total spells. HP's consumed in the fight: F: 28/52 Z: 40/19 R: 11/25 For a total of 79/134 (Ignoring Potential HPs from healing) Resources consumed during this fight: Spell levels: 36.8% (Non-replenishable) Total Spells: 40.0% (Non-replenishable) HP's: 60.0% Efficiency: Spell Levels: 63.2% Total Spells: 60.0% HP's: 40% Our Cleric is in a bad way because he's left with 2 1st level spells (1 normal and 1 Divine), 1 2nd level spell (1 Divine), and 2 3rd level spells (1 normal and 1 Divine). Our Wizard was almost killed in the first round of combat. So, 2 (pretty dumb) Winter Wolves against our party tore it up pretty bad and ate through a lot of our resources. Our Cleric is screaming for rest and our Wizard is probably paranoid that the GM is out to get him. (Actually, it's because Wizards taste like Sirloin) Note: I wrote this in a bit of a rush, so check my math above. I think it's right. I still think the healing could be optimized a bit, but I doubt it's on the order of more than 1 or 2 spell levels and 1 or 2 spells. Further, since I used 0th level spells in this encounter, I added them into the total. 0th level spells are a bit of a sticking point in resource calculation because *Sometimes* they're useful and change the course of battle or are valuable resources, but sometimes they're not. If you were to completely remove the 0th level spells from the above equation you would have used 2/9 spells for the Wizard and 7/12 spells for the Cleric (Spell levels stays unchanged). That's 22% and 58.3% respectively, for a total of 9/21 or 42.9%. So that's another way of looking at it. Whoops. Winter Wolf's bite attack should do 13 on average (ignoring halves). 1d8 + 6 + 1d6 would be 4.5 + 6 + 3.5, so 13 or 14. Take that in to account, our Rogue and Wizard should be VERY unhappy. GM error in their favor - until the next Winter Wolf attacks.
BW0222 06-21-07, 04:24 PM	Downtym, My appologies. The point of your post was not entirely clear to me. Side topic, the cleric could have finished the wolf off in the first round -- though you allowed the rogue to tumble 30' so I'll call it a reasonable scenario. However, I'll disagree on your assumption that so many resources were actually consumed in the fight. Spell levels: 18.4% (Non-replenishable) Total Spells: 19% (Non-replenishable) HP's: 29% First, the party has no consumable items. The cleric and wizard would easily be walking around with several scrolls (he can make them) and everyone would carry a few potions, oil, and alchemists fire. Give the party two (used) wands, three potions each, and ten scrolls (total spell levels say 85) and getting through even a sliver of that takes a lot more than what the WWW did. Second, you used repeated cure moderate wounds to heal. By 5th, I see no reason they shouldn't have a wand of cure light wounds. In which case, they went through perhaps 10% of a wand to heal and they only cast two spells during the combat. Third, IMO, you can't count both hit points and spells which returned hit points if they have time to heal between encounters. They either lost the curing spells or the hit points, not both. You either take count before they heal up or after they healed. Forth, it didn't consider that fact that someone might have a more expensive consumable to just end the combat quicker -- a scroll of scorching ray for example. IMO, the results would have been closer to: Spells: 11% HP's: 0% Consumables: 4% (5/85 spell levels, 75/2500gp) Average (even weighting the consumables heavier because they don't come back the next day) is still well under 10%. IMO, the WW would have to repeat that attack two or three times to near 20%. The OP has a point. However, mine is that if played intelligently the WW could have pulled closer to 20% of the resources from the party. Repeated hit and run attacks, stealing some backpacks, blackmail/intimidating them for 500gp, keeping them from regaining spells all night, etc. is honestly necessary to go through 20% of their total resources.
Downtym 06-21-07, 05:57 PM	Side topic, the cleric could have finished the wolf off in the first round -- though you allowed the rogue to tumble 30' so I'll call it a reasonable scenario. Finishing off the wolf would have required the cleric to use an Inflict Moderate which would decrease spell levels used by 1 (C goes before Z and blasts the Wolf). So it is an optimization over previous. That puts HP used at 28/134 (20.9%) Spell levels used at 6/38 (15.8%) Spells used at 3/21 (14.3%) So, it is a more optimal solution. I assumed the Cleric would probably want to heal Z since that's what Clerics should do. heh. Our Cleric is still left with few spells after this 1 fight, but our Wizard is still ready to rock and roll. First, the party has no consumable items. The cleric and wizard would easily be walking around with several scrolls (he can make them) and everyone would carry a few potions, oil, and alchemists fire. Give the party two (used) wands, three potions each, and ten scrolls (total spell levels say 85) and getting through even a sliver of that takes a lot more than what the WWW did. You're getting into Long Term Resources versus Daily Resources. An equal level CR should use 20% of the party's Daily Resources. Long Term Resources are counted as wealth (Determined under the Average Character Wealth table in the beginning of the Campaign section of the DMG). Yes, a party that makes intelligent consumption of their wealth and is constantly resupplied in wealth to purchase more consumables can stretch their Daily Power much farther. This is because Long Term Resources are viewed as a cushion in the game mechanic to allow the party to fight longer or to overcome CR's which were definitely harder than just 20% of their resources. Essentially, a potion of cure moderate is the game's way of balancing the CR's that are harder than expected or giving the party some lasting power to deal with more than 4 encounters per day. Most PC's convert a large amount of wealth into Lasting Resources (Such as an Ability boosting item, a Skill boosting item, +X Armor, or +X Weapons). Anectdotally, this seems to mean that most Consumables get purchased by spell casters. You're exposing a flaw where there really is no flaw. The CR system states that an equal CR generally uses 1/5th of daily resources, not all. If it did, then by the end of the 5th fight on the same day, the party's armor and weapons would fall apart in their hands and they would have to find a chest filled with level appropriate money to purchase all their gear back for the next day's fights. Wealth, as it currently stands in D&D, is sometimes assumed into the system (+X Weapons, Armor, and Resistance items are definitely assumed) and sometimes not (Potions, Scrolls, and Wands are often seen as a sort of "Player Fudge Factor"). This also gets into the issue of "Character Assigned Wealth" versus "GM Assigned Wealth"; which is to say that PC's, if given gold and an open market, will have items that are much more useful to them in terms of combat power. Whereas, if the GM assigns treasure randomly (By the tables in the DMG no less!) the party will have a much more diverse set of gear - which if they go to market can only be sold for 1/2 value. By the time we get to the 1/2 value issue, we're getting into the problem of assessing character wealth and power and when the GM should step in to balance characters against the wealth table. And let's not even get into the PC created item problem which adds a big fluffy cushion under any party willing to trade time for security. Second, you used repeated cure moderate wounds to heal. By 5th, I see no reason they shouldn't have a wand of cure light wounds. In which case, they went through perhaps 10% of a wand to heal and they only cast two spells during the combat. See previous statement. Third, IMO, you can't count both hit points and spells which returned hit points if they have time to heal between encounters. They either lost the curing spells or the hit points, not both. You either take count before they heal up or after they healed. It's important to keep track of both because it highlights how threatening a monster is and gives you a general idea of the strain on the healer(s) during a given fight. Looking at Spells and Spell Levels used versus HPs consumed is also an indicator of combat and healing efficiency, both for the party and for the monster. Forth, it didn't consider that fact that someone might have a more expensive consumable to just end the combat quicker -- a scroll of scorching ray for example. A scroll of scorching ray would have been 150gp See above. IMO, the results would have been closer to: Spells: 11% HP's: 0% Consumables: 4% (5/85 spell levels, 75/2500gp) Average (even weighting the consumables heavier because they don't come back the next day) is still well under 10%. Most of the liquid wealth in the party in the scenario I outlined above would be concentrated in the Wizard (Who would have about 5,000 gp left to spend). The other characters have a liquid worth of about 2,620 gp split between them. The party's total liquid (Consumable) wealth would be about 7,620. Assume that all 7,620 gp was available to be converted into items on the fly and assume that all spells used above were converted into consumable wealth and used (Replacing healing potions for Cleric heals and a scroll of Magic Missile for the one used by the Wizard) I get: 3 potions of Cure Moderate at 500 gp each (1,500 gp) 1 Scroll of Magic Missile at 125 gp (125 gp) For a total of 1,625 gp. The party has used 0 spells and 0 spell levels. That means they used 1,625/7,620 Wealth. 21.3% Wealth. Assuming your optimized solution for the 1 Wolf above, we get: 2 potions of Cure Moderate at 500 gp each (1,000 gp) 1 Scroll of Inflict Moderate Wounds at 125 gp (125 gp) For a total of 1,125 gp. The party has used 0 spells and 0 spell levels. That means they used 1,125/7,620 Wealth. 14.8% Wealth. Looking at my 2 Wolf solution, we get: 3 potions of Cure Minor at 250 ea. (750 gp) 3 potions of Cure Light at 250 ea. (750 gp) 3 potions of Cure Moderate at 500 ea. (1500 gp) 1 potion of Cure Serious at 750 ea. (750 gp) 2 scrolls of Magic Missile at 125 ea. (250 gp) For a total of 4,000 gp. The party has faced 2 equal CR's and used 0 spells and 0 spell levels. That means they used 4,000/7,620 Wealth. 52.5% Wealth. In any of the above cases, optimizations between spell casting and wealth usage could have been done (We could probably reduce costs by getting rid of the Cure Serious and Cure Moderates and replacing them with more efficient Cure Lights). Also, this assumes that the party can literally convert gold to useful items on the spot with no opportunity costs or availability concerns. Also, this assumes the party is carrying no other useful equipment (No grappling hooks, rope, horses, spare weapons, etc.). Further, this assumes the party attempts to survive the combat "Paying as they go". Obviously, some simple optimizations immediately present themselves. You could replace all of the potions with a Wand of Cure Light (750 gp) (11.5% Wealth in the first example; 13.1% Wealth in the second) which would now be missing 8 charges after the first example and 16 charges after the second (16% and 32% respectively). Of course, this means that in the second example, the Cleric used a Wand of Cure Light on the Wizard after he was taken to -9, so the Wizard was at -4 at the start of the second round of combat. Being the bastard GM I am, the Wizard goes to -17 as soon as its the wolf's turn. Why? To teach the Cleric an important lesson and because Wizards taste like Sirloin. One way or another, conversations about Wealth are essentially off-topic since the CR system is clearly half-agnostic and half-aware of character Wealth. IMO, the WW would have to repeat that attack two or three times to near 20%. The OP has a point. However, mine is that if played intelligently the WW could have pulled closer to 20% of the resources from the party. Repeated hit and run attacks, stealing some backpacks, blackmail/intimidating them for 500gp, keeping them from regaining spells all night, etc. is honestly necessary to go through 20% of their total resources. Played intelligently, a Winter Wolf will kill an entire party of 5th level characters. Everytime. With no exception. The same could be said for a Troll. The issue comes down to "How much fun would you rather be having when the GM is playing 'Hunt down your characters and murder them'?"
Lootus 06-21-07, 06:29 PM	Sounds rather like a lot of Living Greyhawk modules I've heard about. "And then a bunch of dire elephants attack: with surprise!" Ok, the point is, if T-Rex was able to easily ambush, this would give it an advantage that was not factored into its CR. That's all. Not saying they can or should be able to sneak up on things, only that if they somehow could, it would add to the CR. Regarding the Winter Wolf, I don't think anyone has taken into account the fact that it would try to save its own hide by fleeing (or surrendering, etc.), instead of fighting to the death, once it becomes obvious it cannot easily take down all four enemies. This would affect the amount of resources expended in the fight, correct?
solbergb 06-21-07, 06:58 PM	not as much as you'd think. The party is getting four actions to the winter wolf's one, and the winter wolf is likely to start out thinking it is winning (damaging everybody in the party, getting surprise, maybe dropping a weaker party member) Unfortunately, if you invert the CR system, that winter wolf is fighting a CR+4 encounter, and when you do that, you can go from full or barely hurt to dead very suddenly. consider in that "average" scenario when the fighter, rolling with a +4 to hit does NOT connect with the power attack. The winter wolf goes into the next round feeling pretty good...dodging the melee, taking minor damage from other attacks, hurting the enemy...then the next round the fighter connects and he's suddenly in single digits with 1-2 PC's yet to go. Sometimes running away will reduce resource on the party. OTOH, I've seen parties blow fairly significant resources chasing an enemy that is worth cash to them (anyone with equipment, or maybe there is a bounty on that wolf) or dangerous to them (we don't wanna fight that wolf again after it healed!) Running away may result in tossing a battlefield control spell, or a mobility spell or ranged attack spell to keep the escape from succeeding. Surrender can reduce the resources to win the fight, but now what do you do with your prisoner? Ensuring loyalty (eg, charm, geas, mark of justice) or knocking out and transporting (tenser disk, mount) can consume resources, or you risk the "subdued' enemy alerting others or even actively helping in a future encounter. All outcomes have their problems.
RadicalTaoist 06-21-07, 06:58 PM	*ahem* I'm going to have to agree with the "it'll hurt by the fourth or fifth encounter" line of thought. It's not until then that you'll run out of Deep Slumbers, Glitterdusts, Pyrotechnics, and other spells which will pretty much bum rush the winter wolf and his weak Will save. Blinding, sleeping, and company will end the encounter. Even the lowly hidden dragon, Color Spray, costs the wolf a round the party will beat on him - a round he's stunned, giving the rogue free sneak attack (plus the chance to move to flank). CR always has to take tactics into play. Your analyses, guys, are still not taking the most effective spell choices for the wizard or cleric into play. Targeting the wolf's true weakness allows the party to present a much stiffer threat and the DM to employ more tactics on the part of the wolf (who will get owned by the right barrage of save-or-sucks).
Downtym 06-21-07, 07:34 PM	*ahem* Your analyses, guys, are still not taking the most effective spell choices for the wizard or cleric into play. Targeting the wolf's true weakness allows the party to present a much stiffer threat and the DM to employ more tactics on the part of the wolf (who will get owned by the right barrage of save-or-sucks). Actually, I took your points into consideration and immediately dismissed most of them. Color Spray has a range of 15 feet. To be able to use it, the Wizard would have to first win initiative then move to within 15 feet of the Winter Wolf and use Color Spray. On average, the Color Spray would stun the Wolf for 1 round and would allow the fighter and rogue to get into position to hit the Wolf. Of course, the Wolf would still get its turn and would breath on the Fighter and Wizard. Also, the failure chance for the Wolf against Color Spray is only 55%. That's cutting it dangerously close for the Wizard to be running around within 15 feet of the Wolf. Also, the Winter Wolf still gets a turn on average and will still breathe. Deep Slumber is a 3rd level spell and the Wolf will be immediately awakened by the first hit against it. The Fighter could feasibly coup de grace the Wolf while it was sleeping for 52 damage, killing it outright. Of course, it still uses 1/9 spells and 3/16 spell levels (11.1%; 18.8%) from the Wizard; with 4/21 spells and 9/38 spell levels total (19.0%; 23.7%); and 39/134 HP (29.1%) Glitterdust is a 2nd level spell - increasing spell levels used by 1 - and even blinded, the wolf can still breath in the direction of the fighter, wizard, and cleric easily. Pyrotechnics is 2nd level. Also, it will blind everything within 120 feet with line of sight or create smoke. Smoke would benefit the Wolf since it has a ranged breath weapon. And blinding the rest of the party would obviously benefit the Wolf. Edit: Actually, if the Wolf goes before the Wizard, it still inflicts damage on the party to where healing spells must be used. So, Deeper Slumber is not optimal.
Lootus 06-21-07, 08:13 PM	not as much as you'd think. The party is getting four actions to the winter wolf's one, and the winter wolf is likely to start out thinking it is winning (damaging everybody in the party, getting surprise, maybe dropping a weaker party member) Unfortunately, if you invert the CR system, that winter wolf is fighting a CR+4 encounter, and when you do that, you can go from full or barely hurt to dead very suddenly. consider in that "average" scenario when the fighter, rolling with a +4 to hit does NOT connect with the power attack. The winter wolf goes into the next round feeling pretty good...dodging the melee, taking minor damage from other attacks, hurting the enemy...then the next round the fighter connects and he's suddenly in single digits with 1-2 PC's yet to go. Sometimes running away will reduce resource on the party. OTOH, I've seen parties blow fairly significant resources chasing an enemy that is worth cash to them (anyone with equipment, or maybe there is a bounty on that wolf) or dangerous to them (we don't wanna fight that wolf again after it healed!) Running away may result in tossing a battlefield control spell, or a mobility spell or ranged attack spell to keep the escape from succeeding. Surrender can reduce the resources to win the fight, but now what do you do with your prisoner? Ensuring loyalty (eg, charm, geas, mark of justice) or knocking out and transporting (tenser disk, mount) can consume resources, or you risk the "subdued' enemy alerting others or even actively helping in a future encounter. All outcomes have their problems. Good point! If the combat is only two rounds, and the Winter Wolf flees after round 1, it only reduces 14 points of damage to the Fighter. Do you think that in other situations (or other creatures) this would be a bigger factor? I still think it's something to take into consideration though; I think that when a CR is assigned to a creature, it is probably with an assumption of whether or not is the type that typically fights to the death (I think of Troll when I think of an intelligent creature known for fighting to the death). Anyway, if the original point of Rumple's post had to do with a creature's CR/effectiveness seeming way off when the DM (accidentally?) runs the creature in the "wrong" way, then the Winter Wolf continues to be a bad example. Or I'm reading an entirely different meaning into the original post than was intended. In which case, two thumbs up for Winter Wolf looking to be decidedly not underpowered! :)
BW0222 06-22-07, 11:09 AM	Downtym, Finishing off the wolf would have required the cleric to use an Inflict Moderate which would decrease spell levels used by 1 (C goes before Z and blasts the Wolf). So it is an optimization over previous. At the time the cleric went (by your scenario) the WW had 2hp left. A mace, alchemists fire, etc. could easily have dropped him. Again, I consider it a wash vs. the rogues tumbling mistake. You're getting into Long Term Resources versus Daily Resources. An equal level CR should use 20% of the party's Daily Resources. Let us look at what that DMG actually says... DMG p49, What's Challenging? "An encounter with an Ecounter Level (EL) equal to the PCs' level is one that should expend about 20% of their resources -- hit points, spells, magic items uses, and so on." Your assumption that the CR/EL system is only expected to deal with daily usage items is mistaken. It says nothing about daily and it even says magic item uses. Most of the rest of your arguements simply don't apply, so I won't address them. Consumables are a hard think to factor in, but about 10%-20% of the characters wealth will typically be in consumables. Either found, created, or purchased by the savy party. This means on an APL 5 party, will likely be holding around 2,000+ gp worth of consumables. The amount of consumables are typically stable. PCs do find treasure and consumables are common. On average a 5th-level party should find 1,600gp worth of treasure per encounter. About 200gp-400gp of this would be in the form of consumable items. This is well in excess of any consumables that the PCs may have had to use in your WW fight -- 4 cure light wounds charges from a wand (60gp), and a potion of cure light (50gp). Now the WW might not have any consumables (say just a pelt worth 200gp and some blood with 50gp), but it is highly unlikely that within 8 encounters they won't make it either back to town with a pile (16,800gp on average) of non-consumables to sell, or will have found some (2,500gp+) consumables. At the rate the PCs just used consumables vs. the WW (about 5%) they could easily continue at that rate through 19 more encounters before running low. In most campaign settings, they would have leveled, found considerable consumbles during their looting and/or been to town several times. In other words, the OP is correct. In your fight, the party is not going through consumables at even rates at which they will be finding new consumables, let alone being likely to run out of them prior to getting a chance to repurchase them in any normal campaign setting. I'll also point out that you are always using the most expensive means to accomplish things in your examples. In the combat, the cleric needed to cast one cure moderate to keep the wizard alive. Fair enough. However, after the combat, there is no reason to use potions of cure moderate (300gp each), when they could use wands of cure light (2x15gp), scrolls (2x25gp), or potions of cure light wounds (2x50gp) for the same amount of healing. PCs are going to save the expensive healing for combat. Played intelligently, a Winter Wolf will kill an entire party of 5th level characters. Everytime. With no exception. The same could be said for a Troll. The issue comes down to "How much fun would you rather be having when the GM is playing 'Hunt down your characters and murder them'?" Everytime? No. First, I'm not sure that is true. I've come up with some pretty nasty tactics, but even these would have a hard time killing the party. We know that the WW can't defeat the PCs in a straight fight even with surprise. In my best cases it might have managed to steal some stuff, damaged some items, extorted goods, or done a few hit and runs before being tagged and needing to rest. It is typically only going to get one good lick in before the PCs take reasonable precautions. In none of my scenerios could the WW (baring luck) actually defeat the PCs and still survive. It isn't suicidal so it won't kill itself just to kill one of the PCs. It can likely get one good lick in and survive -- say, it yells "Help" and while the PCs are going out in the dark, it circles around and steals a backpack. After that, it is going to be mighty difficult to get another lick in. The PCs are then going to put up reasonable precautions. The familiar is now on guard duty (and can sleep during the day). The rogue is putting up tin can traps around the area. The PCs can prepare ambushes (say an illusion of the rogue sleeping on guard duty). They could also just toss out the considerable resources to chase the WW off -- say a summon a fiendish wolf, followed by a scroll of fireball. At this point, the injured WW isn't coming back for days, if at all. At best, I can drain them of a few more resources (which actually get them to around 10-15%), but provided the PCs are willing to use their resources, the WW can't defeat them baring really bad luck or play. Second, even if I could come up with instant kill tactics -- causing an avalance, bringing in frost giants (which isn't an EL 5 combat), etc. -- I wouldn't employ them. My goal is to use up about 20% of their resources, not to kill them. In short, the OP is correct. Your straight fight example does not use 20% the resources. You have to play the WW intelligently to come close to that. My better cases might have used up 10%-15% in repeated attacks until killed or driven off by enough damage.