1st level monk flurrying and two weapon fighting? [Archive] - Wizards Community

1st level monk flurrying and two weapon fighting? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Deluxe 247 G
04-18-05, 09:09 PM Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to –1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-1/2 or x 1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
Special: A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.
A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.

IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE [GENERAL]
Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you.
In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option.
Normal: Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack.
Special: A monk automatically gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at 1st level. She need not select it.
A fighter may select Improved Unarmed Strike as one of his fighter bonus feats.

So those are the general guidelines I’m basing this post on. So what happens if a monk at 1st level has 16 strength and 15 dexterity, has weapon focus (unarmed) and takes two-weapon fighting? Above it states that unarmed attacks always count as light weapons, so let’s add up all the factors:

+3, Str mod
-2, Flurry mod
-2, TWF mod
+1 Weapon focus (unarmed)

So that’s +0, and he’d get three of those attacks. So at first level the monk could take a full attack that was +0/+0/+0 each dealing d6+3 (because none of the attack are offhand). Am I getting that right? It seems like TWF shouldn’t be able to stack with flurry, but I’m not finding any discrepancies in any of the text…

Thanks,
Eli
Osiris Memnoch
04-18-05, 09:15 PM You've only got 1 unarmed. Unarmed is your whole body and you can't equip the same weapon twice. You could flurry and TWF if you use 2 weapons that you can flurry (unarmed, kama, nunchaku, siagnham, quarterstaff, shuriken)
Count Arioch the 28th
04-18-05, 09:17 PM According to the new FAQ, you can indeed use two unarmed strike as an offhand attack.
Keenath
04-18-05, 09:19 PM My group has always ruled (and yes, this is a houserule) that Flurry is a version of TWF that works only for monk weapons, but allows you to do it with unarmed strikes even though you normally can't do that.

So, in our campaign, a monk with Flurry and TWF would be able to produce two attacks at -2/-2 with fists or any monk weapon, and then could ALSO two-weapon-fight at -2/-2 with daggers, longsword/shortsword, double weapons, and so on. But they don't stack.
Ongorth
04-18-05, 09:20 PM I would like to kindly note that a first level monk does not have BaB +1 and as such cannot take weapon focus.
Count Arioch the 28th
04-18-05, 09:23 PM So that’s +0, and he’d get three of those attacks. So at first level the monk could take a full attack that was +0/+0/+0 each dealing d6+3 (because none of the attack are offhand).

the extra attack from two weapon fighting would indeed count as an off-hand attack, and have only 1/2 the strength bonus. Otherwise, you are entirely correct.
Deluxe 247 G
04-18-05, 09:25 PM Op, always forget the simple prereqs, thanks.

To Arioch, it specifically states that all the attacks are not offhand... does TWF override this? I'd think flurry rules would go over.
Ax'Orl
04-18-05, 10:28 PM I would have to agree with the previous poster as the description of Unarmed Strikes states (paraphrase) that a monks unarmed strike is never off hand for purposes of STR to damage.
Count Arioch the 28th
04-18-05, 11:09 PM To Arioch, it specifically states that all the attacks are not offhand... does TWF override this? I'd think flurry rules would go over.

I interpret the no off hand line in the phb as you cannot ever make off hand attacks with an unarmed attack, and the FAQ directly contradicts this.

Personally, I would interpret the flurry as an ability that lets you get an axtra attack, and two weapon fighting that grants you an extra attack with the added penalty of halving your strength bonus.

However, since we're talking about an FAQ ruling that doesn't really clarify a core rule, but contradicts it, I'd say that anyone's ruling is technically as good as mine in this case.
deduke
04-19-05, 04:23 AM i would definatly go with 3 attacks at a total -4 penalty with 2 attacks (normal and flurry) at full strength bonus and the other (off-hand from 2 weapon fighting) at half strength bonus. According to the FAQ

The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t
use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact
wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and
no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists.
When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk
suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting
(see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook) and the monk adds
only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand
unarmed strike hits.

(the bolding is mine)
so i guess this solves your problem since the FAQ overrides what is written in the published books.

regards deDuke
Lord Gwydion
04-19-05, 05:51 AM My interpretation has always been the same as Keenath's.

A Monk striking unarmed twice in a round is using flurry of blows, while anyone else doing it is using two weapon fighting. Flurry of Blows IMO is a virtual feat like the Ranger weapon styles. The Ranger can only TWF when wearing light or no armor. The Monk can only TWF (with FoB) when using unarmed strikes or special Monk weapons. Either class can take the feat if they want to use TWF in other situations. In my games, the two abilities don't stack, since they are the same thing.

And FAQs only override the core rules if I say they do (at least in games where I'm the DM).
Lord Ian Stark
04-19-05, 09:57 AM The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t
use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact
wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise) (Ok so fine go against the book and rule you can use TWF with unarmed attacks), and
no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists.
When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk
suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting
(see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook) and the monk adds
only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand
unarmed strike hits. (What? Now you just went against another rule in the book! So now your saying the PH is wrong when it said all unarmed strikes get full STR damage too!)

I have mentioned this problem with the FAQ before and it always falls on deaf ears.

First they go against the fact that a Monk can't make off-hand attacks with Unarmed Strikes because his body is one big primary weapon. Yes his ENTIRE body is, that's why it says the monk can head-butt, kick, elbow and all for the exact same damage as a punch and always get full STR damage to all attacks. There is no such thing as off-hand to a monk because he has trained his body to become a weapon.

Then they contradict themselves in the FAQ and say the Monks (illegal) off-hand attack doesn't get full STR damage? What? Comon, make up your mind people. :rolleyes:

As far as a flurry and a two weapon fighting lets look at it this way-

Two-Weapon Fighting takes a full round action.

Using the Flurry ability doesn't take up an standard or full-round action. It is just part of your attack that you can do.

Therefore you are allowed to flurry with a quarter staff and get an extra attack for the flurry and the off-hand attack (TWF).

So at 4th level if you had a +7 Attack Bonus (+3 BaB) and the TWF feat your attack could look like this...

+5, +5, +3

You can interchange your attacks with either the quarterstaff or Unarmed Strikes.
Lord Ian Stark
04-22-05, 11:08 AM So did this answer your question Deluxe 247 G Money?
Acceptableloss
04-23-05, 12:32 AM i would definatly go with 3 attacks at a total -4 penalty with 2 attacks (normal and flurry) at full strength bonus and the other (off-hand from 2 weapon fighting) at half strength bonus. According to the FAQ

Deduke is correct. A monk with two weapon fighting may make three attacks at -4, one of which will have 1/2 str bonus to dmg.
Decius
04-23-05, 01:06 AM How, then, does Flurry synergize with Perfect Two Weapon Fighting? Does the monk gain attacks at his highest Bonus per FoB, then double his attacks for PTWF, since:
The character can make as many attacks with his or her off-hand weapon as with his or her primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus. The character still takes the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons.
Normal: Without this feat, a character can only get a single attack with an off-hand weapon (or two attacks with an off-hand weapon if he or she has Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, or three attacks with an off-hand weapon if he or she has Greater Two-Weapon Fighting).

If I can make more attacks with my primary unarmed strike, I should then be able to make more attacks with my imaginary off-hand hand, or special monk weapon.

Now synergize this with Quick draw and +1 BANE shuriken. Or +1 kama and the throw anything feat. Now you have a clearly unbalenced (Even for epic levels) character. Therefore one of the postulates of the logic is wrong; The shakiest postulate we have made is that FoB is not mutually exclusive with TWF. Therefore the rules would be more balenced if that were not true.

For balence purposes, disallow FoB and TWF at the same time. The letter of the rules is not the deciding factor- they disagree.
Count Arioch the 28th
04-23-05, 01:15 AM It's not unbalancing to allow the two to work together, a monk isn't going to hit anything anyway, giving him more penalties is not going to break anything, in fact it'll hurt the monk.

If you don't allow it because it's useless, go ahead. (I don't allow great cleave in my games because it has no use, I'm not going to put multiple creatures that die in one hit against my players, great cleave will never come up. Ever.)
Thomar_of_Uointer
04-23-05, 01:16 AM There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed.

Therefore, a Monk may not dual-wield his fists.
Lord Ian Stark
04-23-05, 09:30 AM A monk with two weapon fighting may make three attacks at -4, one of which will have 1/2 str bonus to dmg.

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

You know it's one thing that the FAQ throws out the window that the Monk can't attack with an off-hand but then it goes even farther and says when you use your off-hand you get 1/2 the STR damage?

That's just rediculous. If the Monk's abilities were in error it should have been changed in the errata of the PH 3.5 which it wasn't. If the FAQ didn't blatantly go against what was in the PH or at least made an attempt at explaining why they decided to change the rules maybe I would except them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Deluxe 247 G 04-18-05, 09:09 PM	Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to –1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows. When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-1/2 or x 1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so. When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus. Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes. Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling. A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage. TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL] You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon. Prerequisite: Dex 15. Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.) Special: A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor. A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats. IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE [GENERAL] Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you. In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option. Normal: Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack. Special: A monk automatically gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at 1st level. She need not select it. A fighter may select Improved Unarmed Strike as one of his fighter bonus feats. So those are the general guidelines I’m basing this post on. So what happens if a monk at 1st level has 16 strength and 15 dexterity, has weapon focus (unarmed) and takes two-weapon fighting? Above it states that unarmed attacks always count as light weapons, so let’s add up all the factors: +3, Str mod -2, Flurry mod -2, TWF mod +1 Weapon focus (unarmed) So that’s +0, and he’d get three of those attacks. So at first level the monk could take a full attack that was +0/+0/+0 each dealing d6+3 (because none of the attack are offhand). Am I getting that right? It seems like TWF shouldn’t be able to stack with flurry, but I’m not finding any discrepancies in any of the text… Thanks, Eli
Osiris Memnoch 04-18-05, 09:15 PM	You've only got 1 unarmed. Unarmed is your whole body and you can't equip the same weapon twice. You could flurry and TWF if you use 2 weapons that you can flurry (unarmed, kama, nunchaku, siagnham, quarterstaff, shuriken)
Count Arioch the 28th 04-18-05, 09:17 PM	According to the new FAQ, you can indeed use two unarmed strike as an offhand attack.
Keenath 04-18-05, 09:19 PM	My group has always ruled (and yes, this is a houserule) that Flurry is a version of TWF that works only for monk weapons, but allows you to do it with unarmed strikes even though you normally can't do that. So, in our campaign, a monk with Flurry and TWF would be able to produce two attacks at -2/-2 with fists or any monk weapon, and then could ALSO two-weapon-fight at -2/-2 with daggers, longsword/shortsword, double weapons, and so on. But they don't stack.
Ongorth 04-18-05, 09:20 PM	I would like to kindly note that a first level monk does not have BaB +1 and as such cannot take weapon focus.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-18-05, 09:23 PM	So that’s +0, and he’d get three of those attacks. So at first level the monk could take a full attack that was +0/+0/+0 each dealing d6+3 (because none of the attack are offhand). the extra attack from two weapon fighting would indeed count as an off-hand attack, and have only 1/2 the strength bonus. Otherwise, you are entirely correct.
Deluxe 247 G 04-18-05, 09:25 PM	Op, always forget the simple prereqs, thanks. To Arioch, it specifically states that all the attacks are not offhand... does TWF override this? I'd think flurry rules would go over.
Ax'Orl 04-18-05, 10:28 PM	I would have to agree with the previous poster as the description of Unarmed Strikes states (paraphrase) that a monks unarmed strike is never off hand for purposes of STR to damage.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-18-05, 11:09 PM	To Arioch, it specifically states that all the attacks are not offhand... does TWF override this? I'd think flurry rules would go over. I interpret the no off hand line in the phb as you cannot ever make off hand attacks with an unarmed attack, and the FAQ directly contradicts this. Personally, I would interpret the flurry as an ability that lets you get an axtra attack, and two weapon fighting that grants you an extra attack with the added penalty of halving your strength bonus. However, since we're talking about an FAQ ruling that doesn't really clarify a core rule, but contradicts it, I'd say that anyone's ruling is technically as good as mine in this case.
deduke 04-19-05, 04:23 AM	i would definatly go with 3 attacks at a total -4 penalty with 2 attacks (normal and flurry) at full strength bonus and the other (off-hand from 2 weapon fighting) at half strength bonus. According to the FAQ The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists. When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting (see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook) and the monk adds only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand unarmed strike hits. (the bolding is mine) so i guess this solves your problem since the FAQ overrides what is written in the published books. regards deDuke
Lord Gwydion 04-19-05, 05:51 AM	My interpretation has always been the same as Keenath's. A Monk striking unarmed twice in a round is using flurry of blows, while anyone else doing it is using two weapon fighting. Flurry of Blows IMO is a virtual feat like the Ranger weapon styles. The Ranger can only TWF when wearing light or no armor. The Monk can only TWF (with FoB) when using unarmed strikes or special Monk weapons. Either class can take the feat if they want to use TWF in other situations. In my games, the two abilities don't stack, since they are the same thing. And FAQs only override the core rules if I say they do (at least in games where I'm the DM).
Lord Ian Stark 04-19-05, 09:57 AM	The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise) (Ok so fine go against the book and rule you can use TWF with unarmed attacks), and no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists. When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting (see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook) and the monk adds only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand unarmed strike hits. (What? Now you just went against another rule in the book! So now your saying the PH is wrong when it said all unarmed strikes get full STR damage too!) I have mentioned this problem with the FAQ before and it always falls on deaf ears. First they go against the fact that a Monk can't make off-hand attacks with Unarmed Strikes because his body is one big primary weapon. Yes his ENTIRE body is, that's why it says the monk can head-butt, kick, elbow and all for the exact same damage as a punch and always get full STR damage to all attacks. There is no such thing as off-hand to a monk because he has trained his body to become a weapon. Then they contradict themselves in the FAQ and say the Monks (illegal) off-hand attack doesn't get full STR damage? What? Comon, make up your mind people. :rolleyes: As far as a flurry and a two weapon fighting lets look at it this way- Two-Weapon Fighting takes a full round action. Using the Flurry ability doesn't take up an standard or full-round action. It is just part of your attack that you can do. Therefore you are allowed to flurry with a quarter staff and get an extra attack for the flurry and the off-hand attack (TWF). So at 4th level if you had a +7 Attack Bonus (+3 BaB) and the TWF feat your attack could look like this... +5, +5, +3 You can interchange your attacks with either the quarterstaff or Unarmed Strikes.
Lord Ian Stark 04-22-05, 11:08 AM	So did this answer your question Deluxe 247 G Money?
Acceptableloss 04-23-05, 12:32 AM	i would definatly go with 3 attacks at a total -4 penalty with 2 attacks (normal and flurry) at full strength bonus and the other (off-hand from 2 weapon fighting) at half strength bonus. According to the FAQ Deduke is correct. A monk with two weapon fighting may make three attacks at -4, one of which will have 1/2 str bonus to dmg.
Decius 04-23-05, 01:06 AM	How, then, does Flurry synergize with Perfect Two Weapon Fighting? Does the monk gain attacks at his highest Bonus per FoB, then double his attacks for PTWF, since: The character can make as many attacks with his or her off-hand weapon as with his or her primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus. The character still takes the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons. Normal: Without this feat, a character can only get a single attack with an off-hand weapon (or two attacks with an off-hand weapon if he or she has Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, or three attacks with an off-hand weapon if he or she has Greater Two-Weapon Fighting). If I can make more attacks with my primary unarmed strike, I should then be able to make more attacks with my imaginary off-hand hand, or special monk weapon. Now synergize this with Quick draw and +1 BANE shuriken. Or +1 kama and the throw anything feat. Now you have a clearly unbalenced (Even for epic levels) character. Therefore one of the postulates of the logic is wrong; The shakiest postulate we have made is that FoB is not mutually exclusive with TWF. Therefore the rules would be more balenced if that were not true. For balence purposes, disallow FoB and TWF at the same time. The letter of the rules is not the deciding factor- they disagree.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-23-05, 01:15 AM	It's not unbalancing to allow the two to work together, a monk isn't going to hit anything anyway, giving him more penalties is not going to break anything, in fact it'll hurt the monk. If you don't allow it because it's useless, go ahead. (I don't allow great cleave in my games because it has no use, I'm not going to put multiple creatures that die in one hit against my players, great cleave will never come up. Ever.)
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-23-05, 01:16 AM	There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. Therefore, a Monk may not dual-wield his fists.
Lord Ian Stark 04-23-05, 09:30 AM	A monk with two weapon fighting may make three attacks at -4, one of which will have 1/2 str bonus to dmg. Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes. You know it's one thing that the FAQ throws out the window that the Monk can't attack with an off-hand but then it goes even farther and says when you use your off-hand you get 1/2 the STR damage? That's just rediculous. If the Monk's abilities were in error it should have been changed in the errata of the PH 3.5 which it wasn't. If the FAQ didn't blatantly go against what was in the PH or at least made an attempt at explaining why they decided to change the rules maybe I would except them.