Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Delguidance 02-22-04, 01:59 PM	Hi long time player first time DMer. For the first adventure next week it is possible that after two or three other encounters the pc's could run into an Ogre chasing after a helpless girly damsel deep in the forest. I thought this was a reasonable encounter because we have a combat heavy party (fighter, cleric, ranger, and sorcerer) and everyone has fairly high stats (for example; 11, 14, 15, 16, 17, 17). To make it fairer I was going to make it easier for the pc's to get a surprise round in. My question: Is this a reasonable encounter or will a CR 3 Ogre wipe out my first level party? And if you have any stories about wiping out first level parties I'd be interested. Thanks in advance for your help.
Nifft 02-22-04, 02:09 PM	Why is the ogre chasing the girly-girl? 1) She's a Nymph, and she recently blinded him with her Unearthly Beauty. He now operates on sense of smell only. He lacks the Blind Fight Feat. 2) She's a low-level Sorceress, and she's Enfeebled him. He's not as strong as a normal ogre. 3) She's a good witch, and she's recently cast Bestow Curse on him. He's -2 on all rolls -- attack, damage, saves, etc. 4) She's a good Druid, and cast the unique spell Feet of Clay on him, and his movement is now permanently reduced to 20 ft. -- in this case, he's not chasing her very quickly. Any of the above scenarios will lower the CR of the ogre, due to circumstances which leave him weaker than he should be. For a twist, make him a neutral ogre and her an evil witch. She cursed him because he wouldn't do her evil bidding. -- N
NestroEmichae 02-22-04, 02:14 PM	An Ogre? I don't know. It's the absolute max of what I would throw at a party that low and expect them to have a chance of surviving. A smart group can kill it with difficulty. There is the possibility of a TPK in this case. First-level TPKs? Too many to count. My favorite was the group that kept entering the lair of a Red Great Wyrm (even after being warned by everyone in town that's what it is and ignoring the signs at the entrance to the lair) and dying. That dragon was so amazed at the free meals the town was sending him that he didn't terrorize them for six months. That's the only time where I've had 20 TPKs in one session. The one thing that makes it even more comical was that the PCs were trying to get into a tomb in the opposite direction and were not bothering to read the maps given to them.
avian tiefling 02-22-04, 02:21 PM	You could rig up traps, and have the ranger or someone pull the girl out of the way before she trips them, but not before the ogre runs into them. i'm thinking along the lines of tripwires, mainly. if you took that course, the damsel could simply run *under* them, and they should be pretty quick to set. just take out a rope from someone's pack and string it between a couple trees or rocks. even if its not a strong enough rope to stop the ogre, it would slow it or at least distract it from the girl it was pursuing. you could also place the ranger and sorceror and maybe a couple others in trees overhead to launch volleys of missiles and spells at it from where it can't reach them, weakening it enough that it won't obliterate anyone trying to engage it in a melee on the ground.
Jell_Moo 02-22-04, 02:27 PM	An Ogre? I think it's a decent challenge for a 1st level party, if they play it smart. Pretty much an all encompassing encounter though. If you give them a surprise round, they can pretty much win it easily. Ranger and fighter pepper it with arrows Cleric casts Doom (-2 saves, attacks and damage) DC 14 (15 with SF) Ogre has a +1 to Will saves, needs to roll a 13 (or 14) Sorceror casts Sleep. DC 14 (15 if sorc has SF). Ogre needs to roll a 13 or 14. However, if Doom is successful, the Ogre must roll a 15 or 16. Encounter over.
Nagol 02-22-04, 02:30 PM	Difficult situation to analyze without more detailed info, but here it goes. I am going to assume that the group has typical 1st level equipment, i.e. no masterwork or magical items except possibly a CLW potion. If the group is range-heavy, they may live. It depends on how lucky the group gets and how stupid the ogre is played. If the combat starts at about 100 feet and the whole group fires appropriate missile weapons at the ogre (longbow, sling, longbow, crossbow), they have about 2 shots each (surprise plus one round of ogre closing distance) before the ogre gets close enough to start killing them. With an AC of 16, the group will be hard-pressed to roll enough hits to drop the creature in that time. A typical ogre has about 30 hp. The group will typically do 4.5 per hit. 7 hits to drop the ogre. Character need to roll between 11 - 15, assume an average requirement of 13. So the party will hit with 40% of attempts, needing 8 hits. So typically, the group will need 19 rolls to hit to drop the ogre. 8 attempts are made before the ogre can respond with violence. It depends how lucky those first 8 attacks are. Once in melee, they will likely die. The ogre does high enough damage (9 is minimum, 16 hp is average) that any character is at risk of dropping from a single hit and has a good enough attack roll (+8) that typical 1st level characters will be hit over half the time. The ogre has reach which means it gets an attack of opportunity as the meleers close and can strike then move forcing additional attacks of opportunity on the group. Now, there are many potential variations depending on spells known and carried and variant campaign starting equipment. Entangle or Sleep make the encounter much more survivable as do tanglefoot bags. Likely it will be a TPK with a modest chance of it being a walk-over for the group instead.
PenderGrass 02-22-04, 02:52 PM	It seems that you have the answer at your own fingertips. You have the stats of the Ogre that they are due to encounter, right? You have all the PC stats, right? You know where and how the encounter will begin, right? Now, get creative and imagine HOW your Players think - if one of them is overly reckless, another is timid and always hangs back, and the rest all seem cautious - then play out the encounter using average die roll results (imagine everyone rolling a '10' and doing average damage as well - don't roll the dice, as that will always change depending on everyones luck on game night). You know exactly what the Ogre will do - so it makes it simple to plan and do his actions (use average die roll results for him to). This will give you a good basis to know how survivable this encounter will be for your PC Group. Good luck.:cool:
barnaby36 02-22-04, 04:10 PM	As a DM, you can put ANYTHING in front of them if you so desire, and you can make them win. What is a DM if not the ultimate god of your campaign? The ogre could be under the influence of a ray of enfeeblement for example. My 0.2 sp barnaby36
Winternova 02-22-04, 04:23 PM	They've got a fair chance of winning if they ambush the sucker. striking from advantageous positions with missile weapons, or something would work fine. Add a couple lucky charges, and it should be easy XP. Well, not 'easy' but not like... 900xp for that archmage lich...
Cindre2000 02-22-04, 05:47 PM	Don't forget that an Ogre is pretty stupid so it will most likely hit the character with the most hitpoints first and therefore if the fighter survives, 1 more chance for the PC's to kill it.
Korhal_IV 02-22-04, 09:40 PM	Usually, a party should survive an encounter 2 Crs above it, but 1st level is so chancy that there's absolutely no guarantee. I'd secretly meddle with the Ogre's stats a bit, because its melee power is unavoidable at such low levels (later on Invisibility, Gaseous Form, Stoneskin, and full plate armor will make it harder for the poor bum). -4 Str and -10 HP. It's a scrawny Ogre, which is why its tribe kicked it out and it's all by its lonesome.
MinusInnocence 02-22-04, 11:36 PM	One time, a barbarian who refused to Rage, a Dwarven fighter who insisted on charging every time combat seemed about to commence, and a Human druid whose favorite spell was Shillelagh (even though he had a Strength of 13) came across a Ghast in the depths of a crypt. I made every attempt to tell them this encounter was way out of their league - I let them roll Intelligence and Wisdom checks out the wazoo to discern that every stat it had was higher than theirs. It simply was not afraid of these armed and seemingly dangerous adventurers clamoring into his home, which should have been the first red flag for the party. They all dropped out of the combat within three rounds. They came within 4 HP of killing the beastie but, no such luck. They even had the Druid's animal companion and an NPC with them, to no avail. Ghasts are also CR3, if that helps you at all. I agree that numerically, a 1st level party should be able to tackle CR3 if they play their cards right. But statistics don't mean much when you're rolling 6s and 7s and you need 12s or 13s. As another poster said, it's simply too up in the air when a character is just beginning their career to truly discern what they can handle. I would be very hesitant to drop the Ogre encounter into the game... though they are under no obligation to do anything to help the maiden in distress. A more savvy and pragmatic group would let the beast slay her then begin to drag her corpse away, or do whatever while they snuck up on it. An Ogre munching on his new toy is easily distracted from what's going on in the trees around him. Then again, if you do decide to throw the encounter into your next gaming session and the group simply decides, "We charge, roll initiative!" They deserve what they get. I have zero compassion for foolhardiness. There has to be something wrong, psychologically, with adventurers in the first place... but there is no reason to be reckless with your life. Whatever happens, happens, at that point. The trashcan in my kitchen pantry is called "The Graveyard."
kasanthegr8 02-22-04, 11:41 PM	i suggest you either let the ogre be enfeebled or injured by the person hes chasing or just weaken the ogre by making him a half ogre .Better yet i suggest that if you have savage species,you should put the party again someone with 1-3 lvls of ogre
deadDMwalking 02-22-04, 11:44 PM	I would approach this from the perspective of giving them a real learning experience. Your job as DM is not to always give them encounters they can kill. Ideally you will give them encounters they can overcome. In the case of the ogre, do they have to kill it? Or do they just need to distract it? In this case, if they're not smart, they could all die. But if they are smart they'll save the girl and avoid tangling with the ogre. I would expect it could play out something like this. DM: Listen checks (DC 10) You hear the sounds of crashing brush from ahead and the right. What do you want to do? Okay, after a few moments a young woman (insert description) runs past you, apparently being chased by a large creature. You can hear the sounds of her pursuer. (DM rolls a spot check for girl) It appears she doesn't see you in her desperate panic -OR- She sees you and screams "Help! I'm being chased by an Ogre!" as she continues through the trees. (Give one more round for them to do anything [ready arrows, cast mage armor, etc]) Then the ogre appears. They could pepper it with arrows, and it probably loses a round abandoning the girl and whirling to face the new threat (readied action + 1 round action, + attack on the way) At that point the party should scatter. With luck it follows the one that has the best hide ability. If they run before the ogre gets there, they could all get away. And if they get enough distance they might be able to drop it... Something like that.
barnaby36 02-22-04, 11:45 PM	What's this...? Originally posted by MinusInnocence The trashcan in my kitchen pantry is called "The Graveyard." :mymy: :looloo: YOU DON'T RECYCLE!?! :tantrum: :OMG! Ashamed of the world that we humans made for ourselves, barnaby36
Dragontooth 02-22-04, 11:47 PM	Yes Ogre in melee is a nightmare for low lvl party, But what isn't a nightmare for 1st lvl PC's? The DM could make some bad rolls vs players good rolls, or it could be oppisite. Our group faced an Ogre at 1st lvl and we all survived, of course I was the one that fought and killed it, and I had a very high AC due to a tower shield, and some lucky rolls.
Llewelynn 02-22-04, 11:51 PM	I just had something like this come up with a group I run. Set in the Silver Marches of the FR, an ogre came across them during the night, and they blew spot checks until he was 30' from their camp. They got very lucky with the encounter, and won it easily. However, the Barbarian (who used a Glaive and got an Enlarge Person spell) only stayed conscious after a below-average ogre hit due to raging. In one round, they got a solid crit from a longbow and a massive hit from the Glaive. Without a little luck, they could have very easily lost one member or even all. It was a random encounter, and due to the emphasis I've put on how dangerous the world around them is in this region, I let the encounter stand. Normally though, if I were using it as a plot hook, I wouldn't throw an ogre at level 1's. They can easily die from one hit (23 points is plenty to kill all but the hardiest characters). If your goal is to use it as a tie-in, have the ogre weakened....lower AC, lower HP, under the effect of some spell to make him less deadly. Have him punching (for non-lethal damage only) as he dropped the club during the pursuit. You'll need to do something unless you want this encounter to have a chance for a TPK.
zifnab2525 02-22-04, 11:55 PM	A single Ogre probably won't TPK the party. My party fought four orc fighters, a 2nd level orc shaman, and an Ogre at 1st level (cause our DM is a freaking nut!) and we came out of the fight alive... mostly. It's not the total kill that's a problem at such a low level but the single kill. While the fighter types could probably kill the Ogre in a few rounds, every round that the Ogre connects is a solid chance for a character to go unconsious. If he somehow manages to connect on the Sorceror, that's pretty much game for the guy right there. With the new raising rules - 5000gp for a simple Raise Dead - returning a dead first level character to life isn't even a remote option. Not that the 500gp cost wasn't prohibitive in 3.0 but currently getting a rez without divine intervention is nigh impossible. If you want to run a truly challenging campaign, throwing an Ogre at the party when they've got a round to ambush it isn't bad at all. The party, of course, has the option of "saving the girl" rather than "slaying the beast". A good Entangle spell and a few Expeditious retreats will do as much for them as a pitched battle. If they're confident this will still constitute a "win" they'll probably be happy to take that alternative. If you get :censored::censored::censored::censored: retentive and say they didn't actually kill the ogre and therefore don't actually get full XP, they'll probably fight to the death for better or worse.
Donnavin Snowolf 02-23-04, 12:04 AM	they didn't actually kill the ogre and therefore don't actually get full XP, they'll probably fight to the death for better or worse. You don't have to kill anything, just overcome the obstacle. Full experience for an entangle and a few rounds of running. I sense you were putting on sarcasm though ;)
Bopple 02-23-04, 12:07 AM	I'd suggest against that encounter. The party will win. But the cost can be a death of one of the party.
Elendur 02-23-04, 12:37 AM	I'd say its a reasonable encounter. Just give the party some distance and room to manuver, and the potential for surprise. Play the ogre stupid, and fudge any crits he might roll(since that could take a 1st level char pat -10 in one hit). This a good encounter to teach the pcs that you can'y charge into combat with everything you encounter. Also a good time to teach them about reach :)
zifnab2525 02-23-04, 01:38 AM	If the encounter doesn't have a chance one of the characters is going to die, it's not a very good encounter in my opinion. Not much fun in saving the damsel from distress if the damsel could take her persuer without you. Admittedly the Ogre is hard, but then so are orcs with Falcons, kobolds with crossbows, or a drow or two. Fudge the crits and play up the fact that like Elendur said Ogres aren't the brightest bunch in the world. Just cause a creature hits hard doesn't mean its too much of a challenge. If your players are smart they can win without trouble. If your players are dumb, they might win with luck. In any event they'll learn more about the game this way and hopefully come out the better for it. But if a party of five 1st level characters truly can't handle an Ogre, don't have too much hope for them when they start tackling gibbering mouthers at 5th level or Illithids at 9th.
Bopple 02-23-04, 01:55 AM	The problem is, if the ogre succeeds in rolling the save against Sleep(of which there is a fair chance: 25~40%), it will get really nasty - and that may lead to a couple of deaths, and perhaps TPK if unlucky. But if the ogre fails, it is a piece of cake. I don't like encounters dependent solely on 1 spell save.
Nifft 02-23-04, 02:12 AM	Originally posted by Bopple I don't like encounters dependent solely on 1 spell save. This issue only intensifies at higher levels... -- N
Bopple 02-23-04, 02:16 AM	Aye, but at that level, the party can raise/resurrect or pay for it.
RivitingOne 02-23-04, 02:38 AM	Funny story. Actually, My lvl 1 sorc and another lvl 1 fighter just killed an ogre 2 nights ago. Granted I rolled ability scores incredibly well and my sorc has a dex of 18 = +4 and he's a halfling. All in all that's an AC of 16 against the ogre. Not much you say? Well, you'de be right if not for a few things. Mage armor, shield and suprise. With the spells he has an AC of 24. My halfling just pestered the ogre with taunts and when he got dareing(er) ranged attacks from between and under the ogres legs (opertunity attacks arent's nearly as dangerous with a 24 AC) or takeing a full defence (AC now 28) while the fighter missled the thing to death. Took only 5 rounds to do too :) . Woot, go halfling sorcs!
Escef 02-23-04, 10:39 AM	Well, you could turn i into a roleplaying encounter. When the PCs attack the ogre, the female intervenes. Maybe the ogre isn't a brute, but is very simple minded and innocent, and is just playing tag with a friend? Or maybe he has a bad accent and is trying to bring this girl to the local regent so he can get his swamp back? :) Or maybe the lady stole something of his, and he just wants it back? (PCs attack ogre and he goes "What you do? Leave me be! Me must get shamans sakred pikuls back from teif!") The idea is make it so the ogre isn't interested in fighting, and by helping him the PCs get XP for defeating him.
Naeron 02-23-04, 10:50 AM	If you start the encounter at range so that the PCs have the chance to soften the Ogre up while its closing (because its used its Javelins) then the EL would be lessened. But is really is a call that relies on how tactical the players are, what their ranged combat abilities are etc. Options you might consider is an unarmoured Ogre (AC 13 so much easier to hit), a lot of undergrowth or broken ground so half movement rate to give them 2 rounds of shooting or having it as the first/only encounter of the day so they are on full spells. I would generally avoid reducing the Ogres stats below base as that would give the players the wrong idea of the realtive strengths of an Ogre which may really penalise them later on.
olshanski_home 02-23-04, 11:22 AM	The problem as I see it (and probably someone has already said it), is that the ogre is capable of dealing a LOT of damage in one shot... and that it is pretty random. 1st level PCs usually have 6-12 HP. An ogre, assuming it scores a hit with its greatclub will do 2d8+7. (average 16 hp). This will drop everyone, and possibly kill them outright. If it scores a critical hit It will kill anyone in the party. Now, if you are a heavy-handed DM, you'll need to fudge the ogres rolls if he hits in combat... you will certainly fudge any critical hit, and there is a good chance you'll fudge a damage roll if it rolls better than average. Frankly, I never fudge rolls, so I would never put myself into a position where a single blow will kill a party member. (I don't like siccing a troll on even a 4th level party, because if it hits with its two claws, it gets the rend attack.. you are looking at an average of 4d6+21... thats assuming that the troll doesn't roll a critical hit... it can still easily be 40hp of damage, enough to outright kill most 4th level characters. If you really want to keep this a challenging encounter, consider giving the ogre a one-handed weapon and a shield.. this will tone down a little of the randomness... perhaps a regular club and a large heavy shield. Now you have an ogre that has +2 AC... meaning a longer battle, but the ogre only does 1d8+5 damage (x2 crit). A character can probably survive a hit (although he will be in negative numbers)... which gives another party member time to adminster some healing or stabilize the victim... that is assuming the ogre doesn't hit someone who is down. As far as "Riveting one" being pretty much immune to the ogre at AC 24... I think that the DM was throwing softballs... especially with the sorcerer attacking from under the ogres legs. The Ogre should use grapple checks once the halfling is under his legs, both for his AoO and for his regular attacks. His touch attacks will hit the halfling about 40-50% of the time. (if the halfling is in his space, then he flanks the halfling). The ogre doesn't suffer an AoO from the sorcerer (which ain't gonna be much anyway) if the sorcerer is using a ranged attack. The Ogre's grapple is +12, The halfling should have a grapple of about -3 (assuming he has an outstanding 12 strength). This means that the halfling is grappled about 95% of the time, and takes a MINIMUM of 1d4+5 subdual damage on the Ogre's turn. That's one squeeze and the halfling is out. Full defense doesn't work with ranged attacks (is my understanding). Lets say the halfling has a touch AC 20 vs the ogre. The ogre hits 40% of the time. round 0: halfling runs up close to the ogre (provoking no AoO). due to suprise round. Round 1a: Halfling attacks ogre (who is still flat footed) Round 1b: Ogre attacks halfling (40%) to hit with grapple Round 2a: Halfling range attacks ogre again... this time suffering 40% chance to be hit on the AoO. Round 2B: Ogre attacks halfling (40% chance to hit.) By the end of the 2nd round, there is an 80% chance that the halfling has been grappled at least once... and once is all it will take. For a halfling to have survived 5 rounds is highly improbable... less than a 2% of not getting hit.
YRM 02-23-04, 04:13 PM	At low levels, the scariest type of opponent, especially for a combat style group that lacks fear spells, is a powerful brute with reach. A first level party would be best suited to try to take out the Ogre at range, not engaging it in hand to hand combat. A surprise round would aid them a great deal. Either way, a first level party can beat an Ogre, but be prepared for a potential fatality due to the Ogre's massive damage and the AoO it'll get once it's not flat footed. Remember, you can close with an Ogre in the first round, or surprise round, before the Ogre gains it's footing against the party and can then make AoOs. Just move in before the Ogre takes it's initiative... after that, don't move in (or tumble in). Better to simply plunk away at range though, since an Ogre stinks at ranged attacks. Try to keep some cover, so that the Ogre can't charge, and then tumble away and run when it closes with one character. Anyway, it's entirely possible for a party to win this fight with no casualties. Although you shouldn't just 'grant' surprise rounds... just make it likely that the characters will win their checks against the Ogre and gain surprise. It's also possible that a few rounds of bad rolling could result in a mostly dead party. If the Ogre drops most of the party members, have some kind of plan where he'll let the last party member tend to the others if he drops his weapons and strips the others of their weapons first. Then the Ogre will summon some nearby orcs while this is happening, and you take the party captive, creating a new adventure where they must escape from the prison, regain their items, and fight their way through an ogre's lair to escape.
Kaya Kenobi 02-23-04, 05:32 PM	Originally posted by Delguidance Hi long time player first time DMer. For the first adventure next week it is possible that after two or three other encounters the pc's could run into an Ogre chasing after a helpless girly damsel deep in the forest. I thought this was a reasonable encounter because we have a combat heavy party (fighter, cleric, ranger, and sorcerer) and everyone has fairly high stats (for example; 11, 14, 15, 16, 17, 17). To make it fairer I was going to make it easier for the pc's to get a surprise round in. My question: Is this a reasonable encounter or will a CR 3 Ogre wipe out my first level party? And if you have any stories about wiping out first level parties I'd be interested. Thanks in advance for your help. Ogre is definately a hard one... But I had 1st level players whack an ogre.. Here's what should be done: Command very nice spell.. Daze can work wonders. Sleep also a great spell. The ranger and fighter are great shots, and a bless spell by the cleric can be all that's needed to kill an ogre at 1st level.
TaisharMalkier 02-23-04, 06:12 PM	Zug Zug. It definately depends on how smart they are. Against average players I'd guess 1-2 would die on average. "With the new raising rules - 5000gp for a simple Raise Dead - returning a dead first level character to life isn't even a remote option. Not that the 500gp cost wasn't prohibitive in 3.0 but currently getting a rez without divine intervention is nigh impossible." Shrug, I do 250 / character level for raise dead (basically devide cost by 20 and times by level). Definately giving him a club + heavy wooden shield would do wonders. Cheers
Kaya Kenobi 02-23-04, 09:51 PM	Originally posted by TaisharMalkier Zug Zug. It definately depends on how smart they are. Against average players I'd guess 1-2 would die on average. "With the new raising rules - 5000gp for a simple Raise Dead - returning a dead first level character to life isn't even a remote option. Not that the 500gp cost wasn't prohibitive in 3.0 but currently getting a rez without divine intervention is nigh impossible." Shrug, I do 250 / character level for raise dead (basically devide cost by 20 and times by level). Definately giving him a club + heavy wooden shield would do wonders. Cheers The raise rule I have to implement! :D But at a different rate of course... Like percentages...
Delguidance 02-24-04, 08:24 PM	Thanks for all the awesome ideas. I like the club and heavy wooden shield, giving the party chances to make ranged attacks, and having the Ogre under that spell with all the -2s (Doom?). Here's my current plan without too much flavor text... As you walk through the woods your trail begins to run along the edge of a 20 foot cliff. With a Listen check (DC 10) you here yelling and running below. There's a young lady down there, we'll call her Rudy-Mae, who is trying to climb up the cliff in a panic. When she sees you she yells "Help an Ogre is chasing me" With a spot check (DC 15) you can see the Ogre about 80 feet off into the trees. The girl might as well have already cast doom on the Ogre so he's at the -2. The party will have this as a surprise round. The 1st round the Ogre will be moving in. I expect them to use these rounds to both secure the girl somehow, make their ranged attacks, or set a trap of some kind. The 2nd round the Ogre will have to start climbing the wall The 3rd round the Ogre will be up the wall and presumably entering melee if the party hasn't high tailed it out of there. Too easy? The party has rope. I'm sort of hoping things will work out so the girl starts to climb up and the Ogre is about to catch her, but someone swings in to the rescue. Since this Ogre's got his own thread I'd like to give him a name. Any suggestions?
Bort333 02-25-04, 02:03 AM	Uh? The level of the party shouldn't have much to do with what they encounter. They could just... I dunno RUN.
TaisharMalkier 02-25-04, 02:14 AM	Zug Zug. I like Ogad. Cheers
deadDMwalking 02-25-04, 08:03 AM	I think for a name you should take either the most useful reply to this thread, or the least useful (depending on how you want to view this ogre). Fitting tribute, right? You might take just the first syllable to make it sound more ogre like.