Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alathriel 03-22-05, 11:16 AM	Hey, I'm beginning a fresh campaign up and there's no healer in the party. Instead of putting in an NPC cleric, I was thinking of having the party find more cure potions than normal. But I'm curious how I can do this in a proper manner. There's only 2 party members at the moment, but soon there will be 3 players. How many cure light wound potions should they come upon do you all think? There will be a normal amount of combat as per your usual game. I just don't want to give out too little or too much. And how do the rest of you handle this situation?
Tevandel Surefacet 03-22-05, 11:20 AM	In this type of case I sometimes have the characters relatives give them “graduation presents” in the form of scrolls or potions of Cure Light Wounds. The other thing is if they stay in town or close to town buying castings of CLW from a priest is not that expensive – does not work in combat but it does cut down on the bed ridden for 2 weeks thing.
Tyus Kanan 03-22-05, 11:20 AM	If they don't have one, when i am DM, i make sure they realize it, and then leave the solutions up to them. Don't baby your players, challenge them ;) maybe they'll have to use more strategy now, plan things out well ahead of time, use new items, etc... if htey know you're going to give them more potions, etc...they won;t my advice is to go that route, and make them think of solutions, you already have enough on your plate :)
cartel 03-22-05, 11:32 AM	All those Orcs that run into battle without clerics might just happen to carry the odd healing potion, that they don't get chance to drink before being killed by the PC's. OK don't baby your players, challenge them all the way, but with a party of 2 don't penalise them for not picking to play a cleric. Let the players play what they want, let them have the chance to find enough potions here and there or enough gold to go buy them.
primemover003 03-22-05, 11:49 AM	Just include a few more Healing potions here and there... a large temple that offers healing services regardless of faith helps. I mean where else are all those potions and wands of CLW coming from??? Or you can do as the Eberron setting does and have a organization run hospitals staffed with experts skilled in the Heal skill and Alchemy that charges for it's care.
Ludovico47 03-22-05, 11:58 AM	While I agree with the "not babying your players" idea, there's something to be said for not killing your players. If they're in reasonable danger from reasonable means, don't feel bad about throwing them the occasional bone. I'm not saying dump a million gazillion cure light wounds potions in their laps, but consider this: four kobolds are guarding a fairly heavily trafficked entrance to their home caves. It is not uncommon that they get into little skirmishes, and not a one of them is a healer. Now, they probably have skill ranks in healing (and so should your players), but when they're in the thick of it, fighting that battle they're not so sure they can win, they want a little extra insurance. So they get healing potions from their clan's shaman. Now, this doesn't mean they have thirty different potions to chug at will (brewing potions costs exp and gold, and they've probably used a couple of them in some more heated battles with other clans), but there's bound to be one or two on their bodies when your players have ruthlessly slaughtered them all. Thing is, a party without a healer needs to take that into account when they're considering character builds and party tactics (everybody needs skill ranks in heal, and they shouldn't go picking fights they might not win, because there's no easy heal/rez right around the corner). Smart players without a healer can still be perfectly effective, but every party needs the occasional lifeline, and not all players are that smart. Long story short, don't throw a healing potion at the players every time they get a booboo, but don't deny them the ability to heal themselves. NPC clerics (and, no offense here) are a stupid idea, because it gives the players the wrong idea about your relationship; it makes them feel like some deific outsider will intervene any time they're in danger and if you do that, they won't ever respect your campaign. So don't be afraid to throw them the occasional potion in a dungeon, even if it's in a weird place at a weird time, but don't be afraid to let them kill themselves. After all, you didn't make them pick the classes they picked, so you shouldn't be the one who pays for their bullheadedness.
danielinthewolvesden 03-22-05, 12:13 PM	If they're going to have the "normal" amount of combat, they will need healing. Maybe a partially charged Wand of CLW? Special herbs or bandages that do Cure Minor? OTOH- only 2 PC's and level 1 is a real easy way to get a TPK. Have you considered letter them run Gestalt characters? or 2nd level?
smaugchow 03-22-05, 12:39 PM	Same situation - new party, few characters, no cleric. I ran an NPC cleric for the first adventure, but dropped him afterward. I had the first party adventure be in the service of a temple. They neded an ald, abandoned temple lost in the war but since reclaimed to be cleaned out. The party cleaned out the old temple and returned as heroes. They were given special amulets which identified them as friends of the temple - kinda like a discount card at Sam's Club. :D After that, they get large discounts on healing spells and potions. Once they level up a bit and branch out to other areas they leave the temple area and must then find a new source of healing. I don't think we ever got a cleric in that group. Tha party started to lean a little too heavily on the church and the church started coming up with more (and more dangerous) chores for them, so it worked out well.
Lord Ian Stark 03-22-05, 12:45 PM	Hey, I'm beginning a fresh campaign up and there's no healer in the party. And how do the rest of you handle this situation? I don't. If the party is all noobs to the game I can understand and i would have advised them that they should think of healing. However if those two players have played the game before they will figure it out. If they didn't have a Bard, Cleric, Druid or multiclassed into one of those then I would say it is there lack of planning. You should not have to bend the rules to help them. Just make sure there is plenty of healing potions or salves in towns they visit. If they don't buy them too bad.
Tyus Kanan 03-22-05, 01:54 PM	yeah, i didn't mean to not ever give them a lifeline at all ;) sorry if i came off a hardass :D
Gargs454 03-22-05, 02:56 PM	I believe I remember having seen a variant rule in Unearthed Arcana that gives each character a set of reserve points. (Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong in any of my statements here). Essentially, every character has a set of reserve points equal to his or her HP. Reserve points can be used at the rate of 1 point per minute (or whatever time frame you choose) to heal lost hit points. 1 reserve point heals 1 hit point. The catch is that reserve points will not renew until you rest I believe, unless you find some form of magical healing. Even then though, HP will regenerate first. This, or something like it, could work rather well for your group. They should not necessarily be penalized though when there are only two of them. Hard for them to cover every typical party function when there are only two players.
Kayista 03-22-05, 03:32 PM	Personally, I've never been in a party with a cleric. I've had parties with druids and paladins, but no clerics. Not to mention the parties I've been in without any healing classes at all. These have generally worked out fine. When we get our butts handed to us we'd flee the encounter and have to come up with a way to regroup, rest up, and come up with a better plan than charging in head first. That said, until level 2 or 3 give your PCs a way to run away from combat, or have an option open where they can be 'sneeky' and perhaps avoid it entirely. Therefore, when they are caught by the monsters/npcs it's because their plan failed. And if this causes them to die, then it's because of their own actions, not due to lack of cleric. So, basically what I'm saying is, don't 'force' your PCs to fight too many monsters, give them the chance to be tactical.
Lina_Inverse 03-22-05, 04:45 PM	heres what you do.they have choosen to be dumb.not haveing a cleric/druid.therefore,make them understand there idiots. refuse them healing at all turns,make cure potions rarer than normal,refuse to have clerics to heal them except for extended services(my spells are for my gods benefit,how do you benefit him?).and hound them with multible encounters and ambushs. eventully theyll realize that the reason pcs come in groups,is so they can have what they need without relying on the outside world. rule of thumb,if a party cant get something by there own power,dont let them have it.
danielinthewolvesden 03-22-05, 05:26 PM	heres what you do.they have choosen to be dumb.not haveing a cleric/druid.therefore,make them understand there idiots. refuse them healing at all turns,make cure potions rarer than normal,refuse to have clerics to heal them except for extended services(my spells are for my gods benefit,how do you benefit him?).and hound them with multible encounters and ambushs. eventully theyll realize that the reason pcs come in groups,is so they can have what they need without relying on the outside world. rule of thumb,if a party cant get something by there own power,dont let them have it. Lina- there's only two players................. :rolleyes: :banghead:
Alathriel 03-22-05, 05:37 PM	There are only 2 players, and they are quite experienced at D&D. We will have a 3rd joining us, but there's no telling what he's going to be playing atm, cuz he's on vacation. The party consists of a Ranger and a Rogue btw, neither one with healing skills. Though they definately got sneakiness. I think I might kind of have a theory like.. ok, a normal cleric can maybe cast 2 cure light wounds a day, possibly 3. So maybe the group should get 1 cure light wounds potion every other encounter, just so they can keep on fighting. Possibly they could come upon a cache with several potions too later on. (Frankly, I don't want days of downtime just for them to heal up between adventures) The town does have a small Temple of Lathander that can provide some services, but not an unlimited supply of potions.
Maghwi 03-22-05, 06:03 PM	I wouldn't show them any mercy in combat, but I would give them cheap access to healing in town. I might let them find a want of CLW which they could take to a temple and, for a token fee, have the priests there use it on them. One thing I did for my low levels was have the local temple give them free healing in exchange for digging ditches, casting identifys, etc. It was roughly 1 day's worth of labor/spells per person needing healing. Players thought it worked out great, and it gave me an opportunity to flesh out my town a bit. NPC Cleric: "Hmmm. That's a deep gash you got there. I'll fix you up, but tomorrow, you will have to go help old farmer Dom muck his stalls. He's getting too on in years to do it properly, and what with his sons all off in the wars, he's got nobody to give him a hand.... 'Sides, Erma's a great cook, and it'll save you a bit of coin on food and lodging." Then like 3 or 4 adventures later, I had orcs attack farmer Dom's place. After spending several days between adventures over at Dom's fixing it up, and enjoying his hospitality, it was amazing how much easier it was to get the PC's to go along with my plotline and track down the orc raiders. They kinda took it personal. :plotting:
tiercel 03-22-05, 06:22 PM	For starters, if they are close to a town with a significant temple, then you don't need to worry so much about downtime *between* adventures: as has been pointed out, the PCs will be able to donate to the church to have spells cast upon them, in addition to buying some number of potions. (Having cure light wounds cast on you, at caster level 1, costs 10gp.) Even if you don't go with the NPC-cleric-to-help-with-church's-mission angle, you could simply have the church give them a mission and include being healed up afterward as part of their reward. (Unwounded characters might earn a potion, or a minor favor, e.g. "any spell of 3rd level or lower cast free, please present this voucher at any of our 67 locations across Furyondy!"). Small parties will always be "missing something" compared to a party of 4+, but in a party of any size, when you give up one thing you get something else. Thus, you use what you have to make up for what you don't -- here, it sounds like there will be an emphasis on stealth to avoid needing lots of healing. That's cool... often stealthy characters can't really "do their thing" when stuck in a party of 4+, most of whom are unstealthy.
RogerWilco 03-22-05, 06:45 PM	My first DM (this is 2nd ed) had a small hospital in town where we could buy healing salves, those did 4 HP after 12 hours of rest. I think they were 1 gp. My level 8 character still has one left. There was a deadline in the adventure, and we basically spent all our money on healing, just so we could continue exploring after 1-2 days, instead of needing rest for 6-10.
Sildatorak 03-22-05, 06:50 PM	The party consists of a Ranger and a Rogue btw, neither one with healing skills. Though they definately got sneakiness. Recommend to the rogue that he or she take ranks in Use Magic Device. Eventually drop a partially charged wand of lesser vigor into a treasure cache. It is a 1st level spell that gives fast healing 1 for 10 rounds+1 round/level, so a 15 gp charge from a wand can get back 11 hp. It is pretty worthless for combat, but it is excellent non-combat healing.
Kragar's Shadow 03-22-05, 06:56 PM	They have a Ranger? Then correct me if I'm wrong, but Cure Light Wounds appears on the Ranger's spell list, so they can use a wand of Cure Light Wounds. Best 750g they'll ever spend.
Lina_Inverse 03-22-05, 08:46 PM	Lina- there's only two players................. :rolleyes: :banghead: thats still not a good enough reason to be a druid or cleric.actully thats more reason to be them as you they fill multible roles easily. for a two person party,a wizard and druid are ideal.
Nom 03-22-05, 10:08 PM	At 1st level, a typical cleric can only cast 2d8+2 points of healing anyway. This is useful as a top-up or in an emergency, but won't make a huge difference. Once the party can afford a wand of cure light wounds they become more able to simple heal bulk hitpoint damage, but 50 charges of CLW can go pretty quickly compared to the 750gp they cost. A party without a cleric just needs to be a little more careful, since without a cleric they have less of an emergency buffer. A couple of cure light wounds potions can serve the same role, though less economically.
Kes Alanadel 03-22-05, 10:08 PM	Why force a class onto someone? Just because there is no healer in the group...you as the DM should not go out of your way to kill off a party just to prove some kind of point. That just makes a "DM vs. PC's" game, where if you don't have the standard party (nevermind that you don't have 4 players), which ever class is missing will be exploited. "hmmm....you have no rogue? sorry you were just hit by a symbol of death." Sorry but that is not my idea of having fun, and I would walk out of a game like this. :(
FriendoftheDork 03-22-05, 11:22 PM	Lina do you tell your player beforehand that they cannot play what they want but have to play what is tactically wise? there is no reason to punish players for choosing character consepts instead of just the most effective class available. This is an RPG not just a tactical game wher the goal is to win. Alathriel the best idea I heared so far is to allow the PCs gestalt classes. If you're not familiar with it, don't worry, it's simply to use the best of two classes. This makes all the PCs more powerul but you can balance it out by tougher challenges. A rogue/cleric gestalt would have 0 bab, 8hp, 8 skill points, traps ability, sneak attack, turn undead, heavy armor proficieny AND spells. Sounds munckhkin at first, but it can be cool character concepts without sacrificing power. This way you have a rogue than can also be a healer.
Alynn 03-22-05, 11:24 PM	thats still not a good enough reason to be a druid or cleric.actully thats more reason to be them as you they fill multible roles easily. for a two person party,a wizard and druid are ideal. So in your games you would rather your players fill in what is "ideal" instead of what they want to play... so you can have uninspired characters that the players aren't really interested in playing. And then you state make healing just about impossible to find because you think that the players are dumb... and you consider them dumb because they didn't pick what you call "ideal" This by far has to be the most ignorant, and blatently stupid thing I've read on this board. Your philosophy is broken, by this rational, they can never have horses unless they train them themselves, no arcane spells, so forget ever using a scroll... the though process is just... retarded. Please tell me you are new to the DM scene.
Chandaroon 03-23-05, 12:40 AM	Rogue - Use Magic Device - Wand of cure light wounds Ranger - On spell list - Wand of cure light wounds A wand of cure light wounds at a randomly charged number, that the characters don't know. Will also help them to appreciate how valuable it is. They will have to use it sparingly or it might run out when they really need it. Potions are great to throw in if the party is in a desperate situation. Party members can also purchase potions from their local church. I'd give the players help in the first adventure but after that they are on their own.
Plastik 03-23-05, 01:00 AM	Lina - A wizard and a druid? Have you ever actually DMmed a game? Honestly, if some dig beaters came to town (so like, orcs at lvl 2 or somesuch) they'd mutilate your party's corpses before they even rolled init. Also, you do not punish your players. Ever. It's their choice to play with you. If they make a foolish decision you work around it. You don't make a player lose an arm at level 2 and not let him die. You can challenge them, but if you want to have a group to DM, you don't punish ever. And I mean ever. The reason I'm a DM now is because my old DM felt that punishing us for not talking to characters was a good idea. He'd have a wizard run into the middle of battle (without his saying a word) and then we'd kill him because, let's face it, it's the middle of battle, and he'd be like "Oops, this door in the back of the room RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR OPJECTIVE is magically locked. I bet a Wizard could open it for you. Hmmm...". There are very few things you can do that I would consider "critical failures" as a DM. One is allowing characters in a balanced party to powerlevel. Another would be punishing your characters. ** Honestly, I think the most elegant solution here, and it's really not elegant, is to give them Ammys of Regeneration. You gain 1 health every 4 turns in battle, and 1d4 every hour out of battle. It's nice, but they'd have to be... somewhere. I'll leave that up to you. Also, make them 1gp. So that when they find them, they won't sell them. Or make nobody buy them.
Law S 03-23-05, 01:18 AM	Not every party needs a healer; it's a matter of strengths versus weaknesses. For one, if I remember correctly, the DM's guide presents CRs with the assumption of a four-person party, correct..? So, of course, you'll have to tone down the encounters appropriately to accomodate this. Secondly, again, the main point is strengths. Where do their strengths and weaknesses lie? As an example, if you have a fighter and a rogue, or any combination of melee, then straight combat with standard CRs should be fairly easy for them, allowing them to get through mostly unscathed. However, the ease with which they make it through encounters will be countered by how well magic will work against them when facing the evil wizards and clerics; so while they won't soak up as much damage in normal fights like a more balanced party would, they'll be taking extra damage when confronted with magical opponents that can target them directly with spells. Point being, you shouldn't have to go out of your way to give them extra healing potions. That isn't to say that healing potions shouldn't be fairly easy to get; many churches and even shops, while not needing to be a McMordenkainen's, can reasonably have a few 1st-level potions, with cures taking the lion's share, since those can easily have the broadest application to anyone that could potentially afford them, even non-adventurers. What I would do instead, is perhaps drop them items that nudge them more towards bolstering their weaknesses, though not protecting them entirely. And you don't have to baby them, but it's perfectly alright to have their opponents trip up due to perceived weaknesses. After all, a pair of odd adventurers, and (to a seasoned villain) without a cleric either, does not an intimidating duo make. For instance, if they're supposed to run into a CR 3 ring leader and his group of CR 1 thugs? The leader laughs, tells his boys to "take care of this", then leaves, to be confronted later after a little chance to recharge, instead of a full battle. Both should be respectable fights for a pair of first-level characters, and the end result is the same, albeit staggered. Also, you'll be forcing the PCs to work smarter, not harder. There are few fights outside of deus ex machina that can't be avoided or otherwise worked around... A little planning and tactical maneuvering on the part of the PCs should let them whittle down opponent's to a more manageable battle. If they let themselves get outnumbered and outmaneuvered by simply charging into the fray, then... That's the price of overestimating yourself and not planning things through. True, this may lead you to having to play a little... 'Dumber' than usual ("What, Gluk's not back from investigating that noise! You two stay here, I'll go check on him!"), but fantasy is filled with plenty of heroic duos and trios. If handled properly, the worst problem to come up should be worrying about who gets to be called the 'sidekick'.
weasel fierce 03-23-05, 01:26 AM	Give them a couple of potions or whatnot, then let them realize through play, that if you dont have the firepower, you better have the brains. I'd go easy on combat encounters, since they dont sound like they are well prepared for that. Low power groups are fun to play with, though, since things that their maxed out brethren would steamroller, will actually present a great sense of danger. Give them plenty of options to RP their way out of things
Pfisiar 03-23-05, 07:01 AM	In my opinion, the game is not simply about combat. It is the DM's responsibility to encourage roleplaying, allow their players freedom to develop the character concepts they want to play. If these players are getting their asses handed to them in combat, then add a Cleric NPC. After all, if it's stupid not to have a Cleric in the party, then the DM should provide one as an NPC or allow a player to play multiple characters. (Considering that these players are experienced, I don't think that should be a problem.) Punishing players for not playing the typical party is ridiculous, draconic and flat out contrary to the point of the DM. But hey, that's my opinion.
Hot Rod 03-23-05, 08:19 AM	Lina - A wizard and a druid? Have you ever actually DMmed a game? Honestly, if some dig beaters came to town (so like, orcs at lvl 2 or somesuch) they'd mutilate your party's corpses before they even rolled init. Lina's been around a long time. The druid's companion and the druid would be able to take out the orcs alone... I think the wizard's there as an investment for L10+, since they generally can't pull their weight till then. (and I LIKE wizards :( )