Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EdgeOfLife 09-07-04, 12:44 AM	So, I've been running a campaign for the last 6-7 months. The group has five players in it right now. They are all 7th level. Human Lawful Good Monk that will be multiclassing in Sorcerror at the next opportunity. Human (sneaky) Evil Rogue 5/Cleric 2 who will keep adding Cleric levels. (Also an expectant father with my Sorcerres NPC {she failed a birth control roll}) Half-Orc Chaotic Neutral Barbarian of Doom!!! Gotta love a guy who can get his STR to 24 when he rages. Especially since he is swinging an Orc-Double Axe. More damage from his STR bonus than the dice. Human Lawful Neutral Wizard specialized in Necromancy. He promised he would wait until 15th lvl to start trying for lichdom. Elven Chaotic Neutral Ranger who is the whirling dervish of death with his longsword and dagger. Came up with a cool house rule where he gives up his third attack of 4 on his Full Attack to take a 5' step, but only to the side of his opponent. Two new guys will be joining in our next session. They came up with an amazing back story that I REALLY like. The only thing I am concerned about is the effect their battle prowess will have upon combat in the group. They went the Sorc1/Fighter4 route to get to Dragon Disciple. I fear that I will have to throw monsters with higher ACs than their level would dictate because of the strength of their melee abilities, but this would be a detriment to the rogue, ranger, and monk. Either that or increase the HPs of everything they face just to lengthen combat. The barbarian allready gets four attacks a round if he full attacks because he is using the double axe. He took exotic weapon prof and TWF and weapon focus on the axe. When he rages he pretty much doesn't miss with his first two attacks and hits about 50% of the time combined between the 3rd and 4th. Any help would be appreciated. Just random ideas that you folks might have. Thanks. Matt
Critical Mass 09-07-04, 03:40 AM	Protip: Dragon Disciple looks great on paper. It really isn't. In fact, it's fairly underpowered. It can disrupt a newbie-friendly game, yes, but no more than a straight cleric or druid who has any idea what they're doing can.
Shalamanaster 09-07-04, 04:16 AM	Agreed on the deciple's lack plus, there's so many ways to lengthen battles and make things difficult where magic's concerned, there's some nasty spells and spell-like abilities out there to handle anything. Have a good look around and take advantage of them.
amethal 09-07-04, 05:24 AM	I agree that dragon disciple is not considered to be a very effective prestige class by many people on these boards, and I don't like the look of it myself. However, I don't know anyone who has ever played one, let alone had a party with TWO in it. Let us know how it works out - it could be very interesting.
Archangel 09-07-04, 06:27 AM	As I see it the problem is not two Dragon Disciples but that you now have 7 party members and CR is for 4 member party. So from now on just use 1 or 2 CR higher monsters or NPCs!
Shalamanaster 09-07-04, 06:47 AM	The Diciples may generate some interesting adventure hooks if you look at it that way. about half of my quest ideas come from the characters themselves, and each conclusion further evolves the character(s) the idea centered around. in this case you can ask yourself (or the characters can ask) if the dragons of his/her blood still live, do they know about the decendants, do the decendants care. etc? how will these questions be answered, who will answer them, etc? ... so really, is their power (or lack of) relevent?
Nom 09-07-04, 09:39 AM	As I see it the problem is not two Dragon Disciples but that you now have 7 party members and CR is for 4 member party. So from now on just use 1 or 2 CR higher monsters or NPCs!IMO, you're wiser to use a greater number of CR appropriate opponents rather than more potent opponents. So where you would previously have used 4 opponents, use 6. The trouble with power vs numbers is that it is usually unbalanced in favour of one side or the other. A single really big monster against a large party will either wipe them out without much effort or be overwhelmed by sheer volume of actions. Likewise, whether a horde of 20 opponents is a threat to a party really depends on whether the horde can survive a couple of fireballs or a Great Cleave. If they can, the party is probably in big trouble; otherwise the opponents will quickly evaporate. In terms of the DDs, I don't see much problem. You've already got 3 melee combatants; two more won't unbalance things much, and a DD is a little weaker than the equivalent fighter. Came up with a cool house rule where he gives up his third attack of 4 on his Full Attack to take a 5' step, but only to the side of his opponent.I assume this an extra 5' adjustment? A character is already allowed to take one 5' adjustment during their turn, even between attacks in a full attack action.
EdgeOfLife 09-07-04, 04:59 PM	I'm interested in why people think that a Dragon Disciple is underpowered when compared to a Fighter. The builds that these guys came up with seem to make them more effective than an equal level fighter. Fighter/DD Fort:7/9 Refl:4/3 Will:3/7 BAB:(7/2)/5 Skill Pts:40/40 Feats: 6/7 Add in the level of Sorc that they both took and the bonus spell that they get, it makes them easily the equivalent of an equal level fighter, if not more powerful. Then we start to look at the nice abilities they gather as they increase through the prestige class, stopping when they take on the Half-Dragon template, and you can see my concern. So, why is a 7th lvl fighter more powerful than a 1Sorc/4Ftr/2DD?
Critical Mass 09-07-04, 06:54 PM	First off, Fighters suck too. Barbarians, Clerics, and Druids own the hell out of them in melee. And the half-dragon template alone is better than 10 DD levels. The DD may have spells (tell me they at least took True Strike), but they also suffer from ASF and have a lower BAB, and don't get the bonus feats.
eRaz0r 09-07-04, 06:55 PM	I assume that the BAB you quoted was 7 for the Fighter and 5 for the DD, yes? That extra attack on the full attack makes quite a difference, right there. I don't know what it looks like at the higher levels, but I think the consensus is that, instead of DD, go for the Half-Dragon template.
EdgeOfLife 09-07-04, 07:09 PM	What I think people are forgetting is that when they reach the 10th lvl of DD they gain the Half-Dragon template. In the meantime they are gaining bonus spells. I'm not trying to help these guys make the most uber character possible. We don't play that way. If that was what we wanted, we would all just sit around at home and play NWN. When they get to the tenth level and take on the Half-Dragon template, their STR will be a minimum of 27. That doesn't take into account any magical item, or stat increase from 8th, 12th, or 16th lvl. So basically they will have the STR of a Raging Half-Orc Barbarian, which I have in the group, with none of the drawbacks. I'm simply looking for advice on how to handle combat with the addition of two powerful melee characters that can throw around a little bit of magic to help themselves.
dirkformica 09-07-04, 08:20 PM	What I think people are forgetting is that when they reach the 10th lvl of DD they gain the Half-Dragon template. In the meantime they are gaining bonus spells. <snip> Okay, newbish question here: If they get the Half Dragon Template, do they also get the +3 Level Adjustment? There doesn't seem to be any mention in the Dragon Disciple description, nor in the Monster Manual that they would be exempt from the LA penalty. If so, I would avoid that level like the plague. That's an overall hit to BAB, Saves, Skills, possibly feats, class abilities. I'd only go that route for Role-playing flavor. But that's just me.
Kilamar 09-07-04, 08:49 PM	When they get to the tenth level and take on the Half-Dragon template, their STR will be a minimum of 27. I think here lies your problem. The PrCs is badly formulated, but the general consensus is that they do not get the Half-Dragon Template ability increase at 10th level because they got them all before. The phrase "gains template" just means that they change their creature type. Kilamar
Nom 09-07-04, 09:00 PM	I'm interested in why people think that a Dragon Disciple is underpowered when compared to a Fighter. The builds that these guys came up with seem to make them more effective than an equal level fighter. Fighter/DD Fort:7/9 Refl:4/3 Will:3/7 BAB:(7/2)/5 Skill Pts:40/40 Feats: 6/7 Add in the level of Sorc that they both took and the bonus spell that they get, it makes them easily the equivalent of an equal level fighter, if not more powerful. Then we start to look at the nice abilities they gather as they increase through the prestige class, stopping when they take on the Half-Dragon template, and you can see my concern. So, why is a 7th lvl fighter more powerful than a 1Sorc/4Ftr/2DD?Compare Ftr 5 -> 15 vs 10 DD levels. The fighter gets 10d10 HD, Fort +5, Ref/Will +4 (+3.33), BAB +10, 5 bonus feats, 20 skill points. The DD is more complex. The easy part is 10d12 HD, BAB +7, Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +7, natural armour +4. The Str boost gives +4 to hit and +4 damage. The Con boost gives Fort +1 and +10 hp. The Int boost gives +3 skill points (total 23). Plus you gain a breath weapon, flight, improved senses and some immunities. At 1/day for low damage, the breath weapon is more of a gimmick than a real attack. The bonus spells do very little for you, since your sorc CL is too low to make over-much use of them and the class is melee focused anyway. You probably lose an iterative attack (remember the Sorc level too), but your melee attacks are more damaging. Your non-Ref saves are better. Natural armour is useful. Flying is good, except when your DM points out that you probably cant fit full plate around your wings (and at level 14 you should be easily able to get magical flight). The biggest drawback is that the class is very back-loaded. There's a bunch of really good stuff that you don't get until level 10: immunities, +4 Str, +2 Cha, good vision. The power jump between 9 and 10 is extremely significant. While a fighter is racking up the bonus feats and BAB, the DD is still waiting for the mythical level 10. ---------- I'm simply looking for advice on how to handle combat with the addition of two powerful melee characters that can throw around a little bit of magic to help themselves.Emphasis: "a little bit of magic". At the levels you're dealing with, the capabilities of 1 level of sorcerer are negligible. Caster level is too low to get much use out of the sorcerer abilities, and they won't be able to use them in armour. Simply treat them as two more melee guys, and increase the number of opponents to match. If you want to give them a chance to shine a little, throw in some low-level casters slinging Will spells: they'll have much better resilience to Will saves than your Ranger or Barbarian.