Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xalxika 11-30-03, 11:45 PM	My question is simple, and I haven't had this as a problem before, but it just occured to me now. What do you do about a player or monster (with Multi-attack, like the Xill) with more than one weapon with the Speed bonus? Do they get an extra attack with each weapon at the highest attack bonus, or just one? It says right in the description that it isn't an extra partial action like Haste, just an extra attack, so I would think the bonus attacks would stack, right? Correct me if I'm wrong anyone. Just curious. And for Epic characters, the Perfect Two-weapon Fighting... would this (if these bonus attacks stack) add an extra attack at the highest bonus for each weapon as well, since you get your attacks twice, just one with each different weapon? Thanks in advance. Xal
Ramses III 12-01-03, 12:35 AM	Yes, the multiple speed weapons each give their extra attack.
Inigo Carmine 12-01-03, 12:40 AM	actually, no. No matter how many weapons of speed you have, you are only entitled to one extra attack per round. I believe it's been said by the sage, and is also stated in the 3.0 FAQ.
Oakspar77777 12-01-03, 02:03 AM	But is it in the 3.5 SRD or FAQ? (and the sage is wrong from time to time) What? No lightning for that blaspheme? I must have spoken truth. As the rules stand, barring an actual sitation from an official source, yes, they stack as follows. A character fighting with two weapons, both enchanted with speed, gets an extra attack with each weapon, at that weapons best Att. A double weapon must have the speed enchantment on BOTH sides of the weapon to have two extra attacks. Again, one with each side. You can not enchant a single weapon with two speed abilities for double effect. From the SRD Speed: When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.) That means, that it does stack with, say, the Rapid Shot feat, but not a haste spell. Note that two weapons (or sides of a double weapon) are not cumulative effects, but seperate effects on seperate weapons. It is, and has always been, a very powerful enchantment, and I do not understand why it was nerfed down to a +3 from a +4 ability.
quaiven 12-01-03, 10:15 AM	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Speed: When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with SIMILAR effects, such as a haste spell.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let's see I think a second weapon of speed would qualify as a similar effect.
Lord Arkhaven 12-01-03, 10:23 AM	Originally posted by quaiven quote: Let's see I think a second weapon of speed would qualify as a similar effect. Look at it another way. A flaming weapon won't stack with another flaming enchantment, right? But if both ends of a double weapon have flaming does only one end flame? Of course not. A two fisted or double weapon fighter gains all the bonuses his weapon or weapons provide. I would allow the extra attack, after all it was paid for and while attractive, is not going to ruin any games.
quaiven 12-01-03, 11:54 AM	Well OK it's your game..."But DM I payed for my Boots of Speed to, so why can't those stack with a speed weapon too?" Myself I don't allow it. But that's my game so I'm allowed to make those calls.
king_of_evil007 12-01-03, 07:34 PM	I allow it. If the player wants to spend all the cash, why not? It's an expensive enchantment, and the +4 it costs could be better spend on adding extra damage or other effects to weapons. <snip>the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. With it, hence with that weapon. Two speed weapons (or a double weapon with both ends similarily enchanted), grant two extra attacks, one with each weapon (or side of a weapon) I had a player once who made a character with a double-bladed sword, put speed on each end, and with all the TWF feats he took, he had like 8 attacks per round, so he definitely wasn't overpowered. But, aside from his first two attacks, he only had a 5% chance to hit (nat. 20). (in fact, his weapon also did terrible damage the few times it hit) Ended up being a really cool character though. Called himself The Whirlwind.
Eldren 12-01-03, 08:59 PM	This was done recently on these boards, and the discussion, while quite long, got kind of nasty and flamey towards the end. :( What it boils down to is the question of whether you want to err on the side of logic or on the side of a Sage Advice ruling. Skip Williams indicated that you don't receive more than one additional attack if you're dual-wielding two Weapons of Speed. However, as has been previously noted in this thread, Skip has, from time to time, been "wrong" (if there is such a thing in Dungeons & Dragons). Personally, I fall on the side of "If you're dual-wielding two Weapons of Speed, you receive an additional attack from each one." My reasoning for this is the structure of Base Attack Bonus and dual-wielding. When using the "Two-Weapon Fighting" feat, your Base Attack Bonus "resets" for your off-hand, and you make your off-hand attack at your highest BAB, with appropriate penalties for dual-wielding, dependent on the weapon combination you're using, as delineated in the Player's Handbook. If they had structured dual-wielding in such a way that the bonus for your off-hand attack was derivative of your primary-hand attack, I would probably think differently, but the reality of your BAB "resetting" itself for your off-hand attack makes me think it ought to be tracked separately, and as such, it's then perfectly logical for a Weapon of Speed in your off-hand to grant you an additional attack just as a Weapon of Speed in your primary hand grants you an additional attack. There are definitely those who disagree with my approach, but I think the "Final word", at least from the last thread on this, was that no one could quite agree peaceably, and that you had to do whatever you thought was most appropriate for your campaign. Both sides of the argument had really good points to make while the discussion remained civil and constructive. I couldn't really fault someone for ruling that two Weapons of Speed don't grant more than one total additional attack, all I could really say is "I don't do it that way in my campaigns."
xect 12-02-03, 10:59 AM	I can't find actual ruling on it right now (no book handy), but the rules would most likely agree that they can't both provide bonuses (the rule that similar spell effects do not stack). I can, however, also say that I would personally allow each weapon to have an extra attack, so the user got one attack extra with each, but that'd be a house rule.