Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crowmeister 06-12-05, 11:54 AM	I might have a little problem with my group. First the set-up 1. Level 19 Ranger Woodling (MM3) Many immunities and does lots of damage with his bow (6 arrows per round, can crit for 100 damage or more). No escape routes what so ever (except hide which isnt so strong at epic levels) 2. Level 22 Arcane Trickster. Can use her inpromtu (sp?) sneak attack and can cast up to level 7 spells. Problem is she 'doesnt believe' in lots of thing as buffs, fly, heals, sometimes teamwork, etc. She just doesnt use them because she do her 'thang'. On the fly so to say 3. A level 22 Eldritch Knight/Warmage/Fighter. Casterlevel 22, can cast LOTS of more spells then a normal Warmage trough the feat extra spell, such as Heal and Teleport. Has an attackbonus of about 35, can boost AC with combat expertise. He also uses his wands of metamagic (which he found in a campain of the other DM) so he can quicken spells. So he fights like a fighter with his artifact sword (which he also got from the other dm) and he casts spells way better then a normal warmage because of extra spell and praticed spellcaster. 4. Level 23 wizards/archmage/incantarix (3.0). She is just really stong with her max. timestop then she cast lots of del. fireballs and sphere of ult. destruction. Okay she goes through her spells too fast but she gets them out FAST. (EDIT) Forgot to mention she developed a epic spell which boosts her INT with like 20. So her saves are way too high for any monster to survive, about DC 43 for a level 9 spell. 2 problems: 1. If I put in too strong monsters (Paragon Mindflayers, everyone has trouble with those) and use antimagic fields I almost killed the whole party. But the mage got an artifact which she can use to plane shift so she can use it in an anti-magic field (which she got from the other DM in another campain) 2. If I use 'normal' CR's (about level 20 mages and fighters) the mage and warmage kill them in a few rounds without the other 2 doing a thing. And they (ranger and trickster) would prolly end up dead (they die A LOT) and I wont be able to touch the mage and warmage) 3. I did split up the party once, the ranger and trickster (both ECL 22-23-ish) fought a CR 15 dragon (OMG) and 1 of them died and I used some improvising (cough) not to let the other one die! And the warmage and mage fought a level 20 dragon! Which they killed in one round!. Timestop, Limited Wish to lower saves of the dragon by 7 and then a twinspell dominate monster! Yea well the dragon got owned. What am I to do? Break them up? Do nothing and let the Ranger and Trickster die almost every week? (no joke they really die once per 2 weeks) or something else?
prettyripples 06-12-05, 12:09 PM	Some people will recommend talking the two strong PCs out of their items, and that is an option. However, I feel that that could spoil their fun. Instead, I'd slip in a few magic items to help the two weaker ones. The two strongers should understand, and if they don't then lay down the law to them. One idea that depends heavily on your players is introducing an NPC (this would help your trickster most of all). The NPC would come along for an adventure or so and be 'best buddies' with the trickster, sharing spells and casting heal and buff a lot. Clearly, the heal spells can target the ranger as well. This NPC would hang around for a session or two and then disappear, handing the Trickster his "Wand of Cure ___ once/day" as a leaving present. By this time, if you're lucky, the Trickster has seen the use of buff and healing spells and will start to use her character to its potential. Another way to help is in the adventures you set. Now, you've mentioned that you've tried fixing the enemies and that's a good idea. But the scenery helps too, and if you run a few sessions with plenty of places to hide (an urban adventure, maybe, or a forest quest), then the Trickster and Ranger should hopefully feel more useful.
VirgilCaine 06-12-05, 12:43 PM	What am I to do? Break them up? Do nothing and let the Ranger and Trickster die almost every week? (no joke they really die once per 2 weeks) or something else? How players get this far and not understand things like flying is better than being on the ground or that you need to work together or be able to move quickly or be invisible or whatever is beyond me. So start over. New campaign, level one. Totally new start, characters use edition appropriate materials--no FR material (i.e. Archmage PrC) or anything from the other DM. Teach the trickster and the ranger that working together = staying alive. Using magic = staying alive. This should fix your problems.
Crowmeister 06-12-05, 01:16 PM	Thanks for the advise! The thing is they both have lots of magic items, I even gave the Trickster some new Far Realm Spells. (from a recent Dragon) I dont think I like the idea of a NPC, we had some before and the players really didnt like it. At the moment we play in a jungle but hiding doesnt help them a lot because of things like Blindsight and Smell. The enemy's arent stupid and if I would make them stupid that would just be stupid. Yep they ussually play just really really dumb; yesterday they (ranger and trickster) went out to scout while hiding and moving silent. But the Red Wizard had blindsight and was invisble so when the Pc's came withing 30 ft they were detected, the pc's couldnt see there enemy's. There were only 3. A wizard and 2 fighters. Stupid enough they wanted to fight them and almost got 1 down but then they kind of died. The problem is that the ranger can't leave (just run) and the enemy's wont give up (again, they arent stupid). I could give the ranger boots of teleport and I could use all the deux ex magica in the world but that would just be lame. The mage and warmage players are just real munchkins and powerplayers and the ranger and tricksters dont care about stuff and spells etc etc. They just wing it and do whatever they think is right at that moment. The player that plays the ranger is getting a little ****** off because he keeps dying which is his own fault every time! So I think we will start over after this adventure, but giving them stuff or npc's to help just because they really suck isn't the awnser I think.
krichaiushii 06-12-05, 01:30 PM	Carelessness kills. Its a fact of life - look at the Darwin Awards. Epic level scouts should know that they need to be able to see invisible creatures. Perhaps you could let the "less dedicated" players make Intelligence or Wisdom rolls regarding actions that epic level characters would or wouldn't make. Like go scouting with True Seeing or See Invisible running. Also, sharing the same PCs with multiple DMs is almost always a recipe for trouble, as the DMs will almost inevitably have different ideas of appropriate treasure for the PCs, resulting in the problem you face now. For future games, encourage everyone to play different PCs under each DM.
BW0222 06-12-05, 02:05 PM	Crowmeister, You have long left the levels at which 'balance' was even tested for. At 15th+ level combat is a high-speed chess game where one spell/action can basically nerf the otherside instantly. Don't worry about balance in such combats. It will never happen. You should be focusing on non-combat roleplaying. Things which the PCs can't just spell there way around and they need to think around. Making a fortress, negotiating a trade deal on behalf of a ruler, running a city/district/tribe/guild, curing a plague, rescuing a possessed gold dragon, etc. Tricks, traps, interesting NPCs, unusual situations, simple problems which can't just be overcome by high-end magic, etc. are going to be a lot more interesting than just looking something up in a book and casting/using it. Combat should be secondary. Make the situation/setting interesting, but don't try making the combat itself able to honestly defeat the PCs -- since it is almost impossible to balance the combats evenly so that the PCs get beat-up but not slaughters as in 1st through 10th levels. For example, I'll bet a combat in a large dark room with shifting anti-magic walls with six rogue/trolls would be more exciting than a face to face fight with a more evenly matched group of several demons. The PCs will likely find more joy in tracking down the trolls in the ever-shifting walls, than merely trading blows with something approximately their power -- often finding out it was too easy or too difficult.
Gort32 06-12-05, 02:46 PM	I agree with BW. By the time you get to those kinds of levels, combat is fairly irrelevent. Any random monster that could possibly challange them would've eaten Waterdeep by now or would've been slain by one of the other major powers in the realm for trying to do so. Which brings you to what these guys should be dealing with: the other major powers of the realm. Farun is basically run behind the scenes by, what, maybe 15 or so epic-level individuals who are currtly in places of power (leading the Red Wizards, etc)? We're talking the likes of Elminster, Tevich Xzat (sp?), and the others that are featured in the FR sourcebook. These guys all make small movements to further their own motives but are kept in check by the others. Your characters are starting to nudge in on attracting the attention of this elite circle and present a threat to their current views of how the world should be run. Some may support your characters as they feel that you could be used towards their own ends, while others would just as soon smack them all dead. At this point, your character's place in the world is as of yet undertimined. They need to find their role in the greater whole. If they've ever stepped on the toes of one of the great powers of the realm, have that one come forth. Then, when things are at their worst, plan out a deux ex machina involving another major power who is willing to support your party. Your party will then have an ally and an enemy worthy of their power and a great campaign involving dealing with this enemy power who has more personal power and other resources to make a pure frontal assult impossible, so things will have to be done stealithly and most likely economically and politically rather than pure combat. Meanwhile, some other powers gain interest in the party's doings and may also attempt to oppose or promote their actions to further their own ideals. The party become pawns in the great balance of powers in the realm and they will need to decide who to follor, who to oppose, and where their place is to be. If they are not aware and involved with these powers then they will be destroyed by them. Now *that's* epic-level gaming ;)