2 Perform checks? [Archive] - Wizards Community

2 Perform checks? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Captain_Madrick
03-06-08, 11:45 AM I don't know why I can't figure this out...

One of my players has 12 ranks in perform (string instruments) and 12 ranks in perform (oratory). He basically, when he makes a check, wants to sing and play at the same time, for a better performance. Do I give him 2 performance checks? Somebody suggested put both at a -4 since his focus is split... it's still a really high number he gets as a result when we add them together. How would you rule this?
Lazzmaniandevil
03-06-08, 12:12 PM Personnaly, I would adapt the rules for aiding another so he can "aid himself" (well, kind of). A DC10 on his "secondary" performance grants a +2 bonus to his main performance. Since a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure for skill checks, it would basically be an automatic +2 for him on his highest check modifier.

I certainly wouldn't give him a penalty for his attention being split. It just seems wrong to punish a player who has invested in two different type of performance.
wrecan
03-06-08, 12:35 PM I don't know why I can't figure this out...

One of my players has 12 ranks in perform (string instruments) and 12 ranks in perform (oratory). He basically, when he makes a check, wants to sing and play at the same time, for a better performance. Do I give him 2 performance checks? Somebody suggested put both at a -4 since his focus is split... it's still a really high number he gets as a result when we add them together. How would you rule this?

First, he cannot sing. He has Perform (oratory). Perform (sing) is a different skill. At most he can tell a story while giving himself some background music. That should be considered a standard Perform (oratory) check since the music is just background. (Or perhaps he could play a kick-ass song and use oratory to tell a phenomenal intro -- that should be a standard Perform (stringed instruments) check.)

Second, what's the purpose of the check? As far as I know, the only time you make a Perform check is if you spend all day performing and you want to know how much money you make that day. If he decides to split his time between orating and strumming, I'd have him roll once for each and then use the mean.

Third, don't forget that you can get a +2 circumstance bonus using a masterwork instrument. That cannot apply to a Perform (oratory) check.
new_fashion_guy
03-06-08, 12:36 PM Personnaly, I would adapt the rules for aiding another so he can "aid himself" (well, kind of). A DC10 on his "secondary" performance grants a +2 bonus to his main performance. Since a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure for skill checks, it would basically be an automatic +2 for him on his highest check modifier.

I certainly wouldn't give him a penalty for his attention being split. It just seems wrong to punish a player who has invested in two different type of performance.

I second this. If a player wants to spend that many skill points to be good at something, he/she should get something out of it.
wrecan
03-06-08, 12:38 PM I second this. If a player wants to spend that many skill points to be good at something, he/she should get something out of it.

He does. With stringed instruments he can get all the benefits of bardic music and retain the ability to speak (and thus to cast spells with verbal and no somatic components). With oratory he can get all the benefits of bardic music and keep his hands free for weapons and magic items. Plus, he doesn't have to worry about someone eliminating his bardic ability by sundering his instrument.
ppirilla
03-06-08, 02:40 PM Agree with the others that Perform(Sing) would be needed for his plan. If you are a kind DM, you might want to suggest the change; though he may prefer the flavor of delivering speeches.

Be that as it may, I would grant a +2 synergy bonus for performing in two compatable ways. Flavor-wise, it makes sense, and it's not like synergy bonuses have any mechanical consistancy. Of course, he has to be both delivering his speech and playing his instrument for the bonus to work.
new_fashion_guy
03-06-08, 03:00 PM First, he cannot sing. He has Perform (oratory). Perform (sing) is a different skill.

I totally missed that one. Still, I don't think the player gets his points' worth by buying two of these unless they can work together somehow. Maybe a synergy bonus would be more in line with the rules that an assist other.
Mock26
03-06-08, 03:14 PM Just treat it like synergy, but possibly change the synergy rules to reflect that they are both perform skills. Maybe +2 plus +1 for every 4 to 6 ranks.
wrecan
03-06-08, 03:16 PM I don't think the player gets his points' worth by buying two of these unless they can work together somehow.
I don't think every player choice has to grant a mechanical benefit. The player wanted two Perform skills maxed out, probably for strategiic reasons. (He should take Perform (Dance) too so he can use his bardic music when silenced.)

Not every choice needs to come with a mechanical bonus. In the end though, the difference is likely to be minimal. Since the only reason to roll a Perform check is to figure out how much coin you made in a day of performing, and assuming he has a +4 Cha bonus (which might actually be low for a 9th level bard) and a masterwork lute. He would have a +18 on his stringed roll without the synergy and +20 with. (He really should be playing his instrument all the time -- since you don't get a masterwork bonus with oration or song.)

WITHOUT SYNERGY: Expected return of 6 gp, 4 cp per day.
WITH SYNERGY: Expected return of 6 gp, 9 sp, 8 cp per day.

If the 9 sp, 4 cp per day (343 gp and 1 sp/year if he plays every day that year) is really going to make a huge difference, I think you might be undertreasuting your party!!

Note: You can also use Perform, under the Epic Rules to sway people's attitudes (ala Diplomacy). I wouldn't recommend it. With an expected roll of 30-31, the bard could make hostile creatures indifferent, unfriendly creatures friendly, and everybody else helpful.
Captain_Madrick
03-06-08, 04:38 PM It's not the monetary gain that makes him put lots of ranks, it's not even the bardice abilities as much; it's the renown. In the perform description it says how popular you are, and the chances of attracting a lot of attention. Including both skills may make him an instant "rockstar". It's just a lot of fame very quick and easily...
wrecan
03-06-08, 04:53 PM It's not the monetary gain that makes him put lots of ranks, it's not even the bardice abilities as much; it's the renown. In the perform description it says how popular you are, and the chances of attracting a lot of attention. Including both skills may make him an instant "rockstar". It's just a lot of fame very quick and easily...

He shouldn't get two rolls for the same amount of performing time. Remember that a Perform check equals one day's worth of Performing. Even if performs as an orator-guitarist, it should only be one roll a day. The +2 synergy bonus some are suggesting is not a significant increase to his "popularity".

(A check of 30 is an "Extraordinary performance". With the +20 I estimated, he'll be extraordinary 55% of the time. Without the synergy bonus, he'd be Extrordinary 45% of the time. Either way, his reputation should be pretty extraordinary.)

He is a ninth level bard, at least, right? I mean in two levels, he'll be "legendary" as far as legend lore is concerned. By tenth level, he'll be at the peak of what mortals can achieve with Perform. By eleventh level, he will be "legendary", Performing at a consistently high level of performance that no mortal could hope to duplicate.

A 6th level Expert with a masterwork Lute and a natural Charisma of 19, and skill Focus (Perform) would get no more than a +18 (+20 if he was able to synergize with Perform (song) like the PC above), which should be considered the pinnacle of mortal achievement. Adventurers are a cut above mortal folk. (Note that I chose 6th level NPC classes as the pinnacle of human achievement based on the generally accepted analysis that led to the E6 D&D Game Style (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=206323)

The bard you've described is at the pinnacle of mortal achievement, which is great. He's as good as a non-adventuring character could ever be. This should give him a reputation in the town where the party is based, and perhaps a lesser reputation elsewhere. Any bard worth a bardic check roll should know his name and where to find him.

When he hits 11th level he'll be "legendary". His reputation should range far and wide. Wizards can use legend lore to find out all about his exploits. Women should swoon to hear him play and speak and Outsiders will occasionally visit his performance (in disguise). As an orator, people will try to retain him to speak on their behalf. As a strummer, taverns should offer him gold (paltry sums but still) to play in their establishment (or, at a minimum, not to play in their competitors' establishments).

I wouldn't give him the +2. His multiple skills make him versatile. But I certainly wouldn't give more than a +2 synergy bonus if he orates while he strums.
themocaw
03-06-08, 05:54 PM I cast another vote for the +2 Aid Self/Synergy bonus camp. It's enough to reward him for choosing two different skills and roleplaying out a way to combine them, but not so much it becomes ridiculous.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Captain_Madrick 03-06-08, 11:45 AM	I don't know why I can't figure this out... One of my players has 12 ranks in perform (string instruments) and 12 ranks in perform (oratory). He basically, when he makes a check, wants to sing and play at the same time, for a better performance. Do I give him 2 performance checks? Somebody suggested put both at a -4 since his focus is split... it's still a really high number he gets as a result when we add them together. How would you rule this?
Lazzmaniandevil 03-06-08, 12:12 PM	Personnaly, I would adapt the rules for aiding another so he can "aid himself" (well, kind of). A DC10 on his "secondary" performance grants a +2 bonus to his main performance. Since a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure for skill checks, it would basically be an automatic +2 for him on his highest check modifier. I certainly wouldn't give him a penalty for his attention being split. It just seems wrong to punish a player who has invested in two different type of performance.
wrecan 03-06-08, 12:35 PM	I don't know why I can't figure this out... One of my players has 12 ranks in perform (string instruments) and 12 ranks in perform (oratory). He basically, when he makes a check, wants to sing and play at the same time, for a better performance. Do I give him 2 performance checks? Somebody suggested put both at a -4 since his focus is split... it's still a really high number he gets as a result when we add them together. How would you rule this? First, he cannot sing. He has Perform (oratory). Perform (sing) is a different skill. At most he can tell a story while giving himself some background music. That should be considered a standard Perform (oratory) check since the music is just background. (Or perhaps he could play a kick-ass song and use oratory to tell a phenomenal intro -- that should be a standard Perform (stringed instruments) check.) Second, what's the purpose of the check? As far as I know, the only time you make a Perform check is if you spend all day performing and you want to know how much money you make that day. If he decides to split his time between orating and strumming, I'd have him roll once for each and then use the mean. Third, don't forget that you can get a +2 circumstance bonus using a masterwork instrument. That cannot apply to a Perform (oratory) check.
new_fashion_guy 03-06-08, 12:36 PM	Personnaly, I would adapt the rules for aiding another so he can "aid himself" (well, kind of). A DC10 on his "secondary" performance grants a +2 bonus to his main performance. Since a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure for skill checks, it would basically be an automatic +2 for him on his highest check modifier. I certainly wouldn't give him a penalty for his attention being split. It just seems wrong to punish a player who has invested in two different type of performance. I second this. If a player wants to spend that many skill points to be good at something, he/she should get something out of it.
wrecan 03-06-08, 12:38 PM	I second this. If a player wants to spend that many skill points to be good at something, he/she should get something out of it. He does. With stringed instruments he can get all the benefits of bardic music and retain the ability to speak (and thus to cast spells with verbal and no somatic components). With oratory he can get all the benefits of bardic music and keep his hands free for weapons and magic items. Plus, he doesn't have to worry about someone eliminating his bardic ability by sundering his instrument.
ppirilla 03-06-08, 02:40 PM	Agree with the others that Perform(Sing) would be needed for his plan. If you are a kind DM, you might want to suggest the change; though he may prefer the flavor of delivering speeches. Be that as it may, I would grant a +2 synergy bonus for performing in two compatable ways. Flavor-wise, it makes sense, and it's not like synergy bonuses have any mechanical consistancy. Of course, he has to be both delivering his speech and playing his instrument for the bonus to work.
new_fashion_guy 03-06-08, 03:00 PM	First, he cannot sing. He has Perform (oratory). Perform (sing) is a different skill. I totally missed that one. Still, I don't think the player gets his points' worth by buying two of these unless they can work together somehow. Maybe a synergy bonus would be more in line with the rules that an assist other.
Mock26 03-06-08, 03:14 PM	Just treat it like synergy, but possibly change the synergy rules to reflect that they are both perform skills. Maybe +2 plus +1 for every 4 to 6 ranks.
wrecan 03-06-08, 03:16 PM	I don't think the player gets his points' worth by buying two of these unless they can work together somehow. I don't think every player choice has to grant a mechanical benefit. The player wanted two Perform skills maxed out, probably for strategiic reasons. (He should take Perform (Dance) too so he can use his bardic music when silenced.) Not every choice needs to come with a mechanical bonus. In the end though, the difference is likely to be minimal. Since the only reason to roll a Perform check is to figure out how much coin you made in a day of performing, and assuming he has a +4 Cha bonus (which might actually be low for a 9th level bard) and a masterwork lute. He would have a +18 on his stringed roll without the synergy and +20 with. (He really should be playing his instrument all the time -- since you don't get a masterwork bonus with oration or song.) WITHOUT SYNERGY: Expected return of 6 gp, 4 cp per day. WITH SYNERGY: Expected return of 6 gp, 9 sp, 8 cp per day. If the 9 sp, 4 cp per day (343 gp and 1 sp/year if he plays every day that year) is really going to make a huge difference, I think you might be undertreasuting your party!! Note: You can also use Perform, under the Epic Rules to sway people's attitudes (ala Diplomacy). I wouldn't recommend it. With an expected roll of 30-31, the bard could make hostile creatures indifferent, unfriendly creatures friendly, and everybody else helpful.
Captain_Madrick 03-06-08, 04:38 PM	It's not the monetary gain that makes him put lots of ranks, it's not even the bardice abilities as much; it's the renown. In the perform description it says how popular you are, and the chances of attracting a lot of attention. Including both skills may make him an instant "rockstar". It's just a lot of fame very quick and easily...
wrecan 03-06-08, 04:53 PM	It's not the monetary gain that makes him put lots of ranks, it's not even the bardice abilities as much; it's the renown. In the perform description it says how popular you are, and the chances of attracting a lot of attention. Including both skills may make him an instant "rockstar". It's just a lot of fame very quick and easily... He shouldn't get two rolls for the same amount of performing time. Remember that a Perform check equals one day's worth of Performing. Even if performs as an orator-guitarist, it should only be one roll a day. The +2 synergy bonus some are suggesting is not a significant increase to his "popularity". (A check of 30 is an "Extraordinary performance". With the +20 I estimated, he'll be extraordinary 55% of the time. Without the synergy bonus, he'd be Extrordinary 45% of the time. Either way, his reputation should be pretty extraordinary.) He is a ninth level bard, at least, right? I mean in two levels, he'll be "legendary" as far as legend lore is concerned. By tenth level, he'll be at the peak of what mortals can achieve with Perform. By eleventh level, he will be "legendary", Performing at a consistently high level of performance that no mortal could hope to duplicate. A 6th level Expert with a masterwork Lute and a natural Charisma of 19, and skill Focus (Perform) would get no more than a +18 (+20 if he was able to synergize with Perform (song) like the PC above), which should be considered the pinnacle of mortal achievement. Adventurers are a cut above mortal folk. (Note that I chose 6th level NPC classes as the pinnacle of human achievement based on the generally accepted analysis that led to the E6 D&D Game Style (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=206323) The bard you've described is at the pinnacle of mortal achievement, which is great. He's as good as a non-adventuring character could ever be. This should give him a reputation in the town where the party is based, and perhaps a lesser reputation elsewhere. Any bard worth a bardic check roll should know his name and where to find him. When he hits 11th level he'll be "legendary". His reputation should range far and wide. Wizards can use legend lore to find out all about his exploits. Women should swoon to hear him play and speak and Outsiders will occasionally visit his performance (in disguise). As an orator, people will try to retain him to speak on their behalf. As a strummer, taverns should offer him gold (paltry sums but still) to play in their establishment (or, at a minimum, not to play in their competitors' establishments). I wouldn't give him the +2. His multiple skills make him versatile. But I certainly wouldn't give more than a +2 synergy bonus if he orates while he strums.
themocaw 03-06-08, 05:54 PM	I cast another vote for the +2 Aid Self/Synergy bonus camp. It's enough to reward him for choosing two different skills and roleplaying out a way to combine them, but not so much it becomes ridiculous.