2 question about CRs [Archive] - Wizards Community

2 question about CRs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jogan
07-05-05, 01:46 PM hey there, just two quick questions:

CR = challenge rating.

A level 6 party should be set up against a monster who's CR is 6:

I was told that in an average session, the ideal amount of encounter's was 4 before the party was allowed to rest. This model would have them use up most of their resources and have them pretty worn out for a big bad evil guy or boss at the end of the session.

1) Do people generally feel the above is generally the case, or am i way off track?

2) In the various "complete" books out, example NPCs are level x, and their CR is also x (for example, Shasty McNasty is level 12, and his CR is also level 12). Surely this doesn't mean that a level 12 PC could take on a level 12 party?

Thanks for any help, much appreciated
Astinex
07-05-05, 01:57 PM hey there, just two quick questions:

CR = challenge rating.

A level 6 party should be set up against a monster who's CR is 6:

I was told that in an average session, the ideal amount of encounter's was 4 before the party was allowed to rest. This model would have them use up most of their resources and have them pretty worn out for a big bad evil guy or boss at the end of the session.

1) Do people generally feel the above is generally the case, or am i way off track?

2) In the various "complete" books out, example NPCs are level x, and their CR is also x (for example, Shasty McNasty is level 12, and his CR is also level 12). Surely this doesn't mean that a level 12 PC could take on a level 12 party?

Thanks for any help, much appreciated
The first bold sentence answers the bold question. A 12th level NPC can take on a party of 4 12th levels but is almost assured to lose. But, before the NPC dies it will cause the PC's to expend 20-25% of their resources to kill.

The CR system is set up so equal CR will eat up the party's resources. But, you shouldn't set up 4 equal CR encounters just before a BBEG fight. You should allow for the party to rest just before the battle with the BBEG, otherwise the party will have effectively 0% resources when taking on the BBEG.

If your looking to challenge the PC's with a single encounter you need to set up an encounter with a single or combined CR of the PC average level +3, or +4.
Bruunwald
07-05-05, 02:02 PM hey there, just two quick questions:

CR = challenge rating.

A level 6 party should be set up against a monster who's CR is 6:

I was told that in an average session, the ideal amount of encounter's was 4 before the party was allowed to rest. This model would have them use up most of their resources and have them pretty worn out for a big bad evil guy or boss at the end of the session.

1) Do people generally feel the above is generally the case, or am i way off track?

2) In the various "complete" books out, example NPCs are level x, and their CR is also x (for example, Shasty McNasty is level 12, and his CR is also level 12). Surely this doesn't mean that a level 12 PC could take on a level 12 party?

Thanks for any help, much appreciated

He could, and he'd die, but he'd challenge them first. CR ratings are based on challenge, not total party kill. So you expect that the villain will be overcome. But you expect it to tax the party, drain resources, hurt them, and kill them if the dice go way bad or somebody does something really stupid.

Example: Your level 12 wizard villain could catch the party flat-footed, and possibly kill the PC wizard with a single fireball, if the PC didn't have the appropriate tools and spells in place. Because a 12th-level Wizard with no Con bonus who managed to roll a 4 for every hit die would still only have 48 hit points, but the fireball of a 12th-level opponent could possibly deliver 60 points of damage.

That's unlikely to happen, but the extreme example shows how he's still a challenge to them.
The Abominable Darkling
07-05-05, 02:31 PM Single monsters tend to make really lousy encounters. In general, a group of four CR 8 monsters makes a much better encounter for a level 12 party than a single CR 12 monster (even though both encounters are EL 12).

An NPC of level X is CR X only by definition. Generally speaking, NPCs are very weak for their CR. If you want to design a high CR NPC to face your party, it's best to choose a high CR monster and then add 1-3 class levels.

Finally, the players should face a variety of encounter levels. About 15% of their encounters should be hard (EL 1-4 higher than the party level), and about 10% should be easy (EL lower than the party level).
windquake
07-05-05, 02:58 PM In general, a group of four CR 8 monsters makes a much better encounter for a level 12 party than a single CR 12 monster (even though both encounters are EL 12).
I thought that when you have two CR X creatures, the CR only goes up by one. Example: Four CR 8's = Two CR 9's = One CR 10.

Have I been getting it wrong all this time? No wonder my players are rolling 3d6 often.

:)

-Windquake
Sildatorak
07-05-05, 03:06 PM An NPC of level X is CR X only by definition. Generally speaking, NPCs are very weak for their CR.

I'm going to take issue with the "very" in this sentence. While a single level 12 human of any class is going to get diced to pieces by a level 12 party in short order in a fight in which nothing is done but stand there and trade blows, NPC's have the advantage of preparation, useful gear, and excellent synergy in groups.

Even intelligent monsters' CR is based on the idea that they will most likely have very few useful magical items since you are rolling randomly. NPC's have a certain value of gear that should be selected for them. A level 12 wizard with maximized fireball, maximized acidball (fireball with energy substitution), swift invisibility and a potion of invisibility is likely to eat up a good chunk of PC resources by starting out invisible, dropping a nuke, going invisible again, and then doing the same thing the next round. Through preparedness and even a touch of useful gear (300 gp is a drop in the bucket at level 12), this wizard is nasty.

Dropping the NPC levels a bit and putting a mixed group of classes together provides better synergy than putting together a mixed group of monsters, generally. I don't have time to put a lot of detail into this part of the post, but consider how much better a PC party that is balanced can be than one that is a party that is all one class.

Also, don't forget that taking the leadership feat for an NPC will let him have a buddy with no CR bump.
rbrt_Spade
07-05-05, 03:10 PM for pc classes level = cr
but also remember el
the dmg have lots of info on this-check it out or in the srd(link in my sig)
Bruunwald
07-05-05, 04:17 PM I prefer a single creature of a CR one or two higher than the party (CR 10 versus party of 8th-level, for instance).

The reason is that it's a challenge that doesn't go on forever and ever. When you have several players (for me six is several), combats with multiple foes can take all day.

Single, powerful foes work better for my group. I still hit them with armies, but I try to keep that to a minimum.
jogan
07-05-05, 04:44 PM thanks for the help people. i've planned a session which was four level 11 characters, during which they were going to fight:

5 trolls (CR 9?)
2 Frost Giants (CR 10?)
1 Mature Adult White Dragon (CR 12)
1 Ice Devil (CR 13)

The Ice Devil was going to be the big bad evil guy for the session, and I had it in mind that the 3 other encounters would've taken place on the same day (i.e. no rest).

From what i've read so far, am i right in thinking that i'd be off track with this (i.e. the session would be too hard)?

Would it be better replacing the Ice Devil with a Level 13 NPC perhaps, or allowing the PC's to rest before fighting the Ice Devil?

again, thanks for any input. If anyone could give me a run down of the different encounters they would run during a session to give me a good idea of what i should be aiming for, that'd be very interesting to read (particularly on when people allow the PC's to rest for the next day)

jogan
Astinex
07-05-05, 04:55 PM ...i've planned a session which was four level 11 characters, during which they were going to fight:

5 trolls (CR 9?)
2 Frost Giants (CR 10?)
1 Mature Adult White Dragon (CR 12)
1 Ice Devil (CR 13)...

From what i've read so far, am i right in thinking that i'd be off track with this (i.e. the session would be too hard)?
Based on the little information you've given us, this may be just fine. The lower CR encounters will burn up less resources which may be conserved for the "big" fight.

There are a lot of variables to consider though. Are your PC's on par with the amount of character wealth expected for their level? What are the environments for each encounter? Will the PC's have the strategic advantage or will the NPC's have it? etc. All these variables may affect the actual CR of each encounter.

5 kobolds with a single rock each in an open field are not as difficult as the same 5 kobolds in a cave network with traps set up, and good weapons/equipment.
Nom
07-05-05, 10:32 PM I agree with Astinex. Once your PCs have a few levels under their belts, it's better to lead up to your "finale" encounter with a mix of low EL and standard EL encounters (less than 4 standard) and then set the finale encounter at slightly above standard EL. If you wish a primary opponent, choose one at or below party EL and then pad out the EL with helpers.

For a major finale ("chapter" finale not just adventure) you can push the EL a little higher, into the risky territory, thus moving from "PCs unlikely to die" to "some PCs might die", and thus a more intense closure. Alternatively, you can let the PCs rest before a powerful final encounter, but this is more likely to go the "wrong" way if the PCs get unlucky.
Shaken, not Stunned
07-05-05, 10:52 PM I suggest you drop the ice devil, use the dragon as your BBEG for the day (and play him really, really smart), and for encounter three use a really diveous puzzle-trap thing.

Dragons are notoriously difficult for their CR.

As is, it should work out OK if your players are clever and you don't punish them for being creative.
Gutcheck Hammerfall
07-06-05, 01:11 AM I thought the rule for CR's was the if you double the number of Creatures, then the CR goes up by 2.

For example two CR 3's = CR 5.

This is in line with the chart in the DMG 3.5 page 49.

Quote:

"...so that four CR 7 creatures (say, four hill giants) are an EL 11 encounters, as are eight CR 5 creatures..."

1 CR 7 = 7; 2 CR 7 = 9 (7+2); 4 CR 7 = 11 (7+4); with 8 it is CR 13
1 CR 5 = 5; 2 CR 5 = 7 (5=2); 4 CR 5 = 9 (5+4); with 8 it is CR 11

seems pretty straight forward. every time you double the number, add two to the EL.
Gutcheck Hammerfall
07-06-05, 01:16 AM thanks for the help people. i've planned a session which was four level 11 characters, during which they were going to fight:

5 trolls (CR 9?)
2 Frost Giants (CR 10?)
1 Mature Adult White Dragon (CR 12)
1 Ice Devil (CR 13)

jogan

2 Frost Giants is an EL 11 (1 = 9, 2 = 11 [you double the encounter, so add two to CR]) DMG 3.5 49-50

Only correction.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jogan 07-05-05, 01:46 PM	hey there, just two quick questions: CR = challenge rating. A level 6 party should be set up against a monster who's CR is 6: I was told that in an average session, the ideal amount of encounter's was 4 before the party was allowed to rest. This model would have them use up most of their resources and have them pretty worn out for a big bad evil guy or boss at the end of the session. 1) Do people generally feel the above is generally the case, or am i way off track? 2) In the various "complete" books out, example NPCs are level x, and their CR is also x (for example, Shasty McNasty is level 12, and his CR is also level 12). Surely this doesn't mean that a level 12 PC could take on a level 12 party? Thanks for any help, much appreciated
Astinex 07-05-05, 01:57 PM	hey there, just two quick questions: CR = challenge rating. A level 6 party should be set up against a monster who's CR is 6: I was told that in an average session, the ideal amount of encounter's was 4 before the party was allowed to rest. This model would have them use up most of their resources and have them pretty worn out for a big bad evil guy or boss at the end of the session. 1) Do people generally feel the above is generally the case, or am i way off track? 2) In the various "complete" books out, example NPCs are level x, and their CR is also x (for example, Shasty McNasty is level 12, and his CR is also level 12). Surely this doesn't mean that a level 12 PC could take on a level 12 party? Thanks for any help, much appreciated The first bold sentence answers the bold question. A 12th level NPC can take on a party of 4 12th levels but is almost assured to lose. But, before the NPC dies it will cause the PC's to expend 20-25% of their resources to kill. The CR system is set up so equal CR will eat up the party's resources. But, you shouldn't set up 4 equal CR encounters just before a BBEG fight. You should allow for the party to rest just before the battle with the BBEG, otherwise the party will have effectively 0% resources when taking on the BBEG. If your looking to challenge the PC's with a single encounter you need to set up an encounter with a single or combined CR of the PC average level +3, or +4.
Bruunwald 07-05-05, 02:02 PM	hey there, just two quick questions: CR = challenge rating. A level 6 party should be set up against a monster who's CR is 6: I was told that in an average session, the ideal amount of encounter's was 4 before the party was allowed to rest. This model would have them use up most of their resources and have them pretty worn out for a big bad evil guy or boss at the end of the session. 1) Do people generally feel the above is generally the case, or am i way off track? 2) In the various "complete" books out, example NPCs are level x, and their CR is also x (for example, Shasty McNasty is level 12, and his CR is also level 12). Surely this doesn't mean that a level 12 PC could take on a level 12 party? Thanks for any help, much appreciated He could, and he'd die, but he'd challenge them first. CR ratings are based on challenge, not total party kill. So you expect that the villain will be overcome. But you expect it to tax the party, drain resources, hurt them, and kill them if the dice go way bad or somebody does something really stupid. Example: Your level 12 wizard villain could catch the party flat-footed, and possibly kill the PC wizard with a single fireball, if the PC didn't have the appropriate tools and spells in place. Because a 12th-level Wizard with no Con bonus who managed to roll a 4 for every hit die would still only have 48 hit points, but the fireball of a 12th-level opponent could possibly deliver 60 points of damage. That's unlikely to happen, but the extreme example shows how he's still a challenge to them.
The Abominable Darkling 07-05-05, 02:31 PM	Single monsters tend to make really lousy encounters. In general, a group of four CR 8 monsters makes a much better encounter for a level 12 party than a single CR 12 monster (even though both encounters are EL 12). An NPC of level X is CR X only by definition. Generally speaking, NPCs are very weak for their CR. If you want to design a high CR NPC to face your party, it's best to choose a high CR monster and then add 1-3 class levels. Finally, the players should face a variety of encounter levels. About 15% of their encounters should be hard (EL 1-4 higher than the party level), and about 10% should be easy (EL lower than the party level).
windquake 07-05-05, 02:58 PM	In general, a group of four CR 8 monsters makes a much better encounter for a level 12 party than a single CR 12 monster (even though both encounters are EL 12). I thought that when you have two CR X creatures, the CR only goes up by one. Example: Four CR 8's = Two CR 9's = One CR 10. Have I been getting it wrong all this time? No wonder my players are rolling 3d6 often. :) -Windquake
Sildatorak 07-05-05, 03:06 PM	An NPC of level X is CR X only by definition. Generally speaking, NPCs are very weak for their CR. I'm going to take issue with the "very" in this sentence. While a single level 12 human of any class is going to get diced to pieces by a level 12 party in short order in a fight in which nothing is done but stand there and trade blows, NPC's have the advantage of preparation, useful gear, and excellent synergy in groups. Even intelligent monsters' CR is based on the idea that they will most likely have very few useful magical items since you are rolling randomly. NPC's have a certain value of gear that should be selected for them. A level 12 wizard with maximized fireball, maximized acidball (fireball with energy substitution), swift invisibility and a potion of invisibility is likely to eat up a good chunk of PC resources by starting out invisible, dropping a nuke, going invisible again, and then doing the same thing the next round. Through preparedness and even a touch of useful gear (300 gp is a drop in the bucket at level 12), this wizard is nasty. Dropping the NPC levels a bit and putting a mixed group of classes together provides better synergy than putting together a mixed group of monsters, generally. I don't have time to put a lot of detail into this part of the post, but consider how much better a PC party that is balanced can be than one that is a party that is all one class. Also, don't forget that taking the leadership feat for an NPC will let him have a buddy with no CR bump.
rbrt_Spade 07-05-05, 03:10 PM	for pc classes level = cr but also remember el the dmg have lots of info on this-check it out or in the srd(link in my sig)
Bruunwald 07-05-05, 04:17 PM	I prefer a single creature of a CR one or two higher than the party (CR 10 versus party of 8th-level, for instance). The reason is that it's a challenge that doesn't go on forever and ever. When you have several players (for me six is several), combats with multiple foes can take all day. Single, powerful foes work better for my group. I still hit them with armies, but I try to keep that to a minimum.
jogan 07-05-05, 04:44 PM	thanks for the help people. i've planned a session which was four level 11 characters, during which they were going to fight: 5 trolls (CR 9?) 2 Frost Giants (CR 10?) 1 Mature Adult White Dragon (CR 12) 1 Ice Devil (CR 13) The Ice Devil was going to be the big bad evil guy for the session, and I had it in mind that the 3 other encounters would've taken place on the same day (i.e. no rest). From what i've read so far, am i right in thinking that i'd be off track with this (i.e. the session would be too hard)? Would it be better replacing the Ice Devil with a Level 13 NPC perhaps, or allowing the PC's to rest before fighting the Ice Devil? again, thanks for any input. If anyone could give me a run down of the different encounters they would run during a session to give me a good idea of what i should be aiming for, that'd be very interesting to read (particularly on when people allow the PC's to rest for the next day) jogan
Astinex 07-05-05, 04:55 PM	...i've planned a session which was four level 11 characters, during which they were going to fight: 5 trolls (CR 9?) 2 Frost Giants (CR 10?) 1 Mature Adult White Dragon (CR 12) 1 Ice Devil (CR 13)... From what i've read so far, am i right in thinking that i'd be off track with this (i.e. the session would be too hard)? Based on the little information you've given us, this may be just fine. The lower CR encounters will burn up less resources which may be conserved for the "big" fight. There are a lot of variables to consider though. Are your PC's on par with the amount of character wealth expected for their level? What are the environments for each encounter? Will the PC's have the strategic advantage or will the NPC's have it? etc. All these variables may affect the actual CR of each encounter. 5 kobolds with a single rock each in an open field are not as difficult as the same 5 kobolds in a cave network with traps set up, and good weapons/equipment.
Nom 07-05-05, 10:32 PM	I agree with Astinex. Once your PCs have a few levels under their belts, it's better to lead up to your "finale" encounter with a mix of low EL and standard EL encounters (less than 4 standard) and then set the finale encounter at slightly above standard EL. If you wish a primary opponent, choose one at or below party EL and then pad out the EL with helpers. For a major finale ("chapter" finale not just adventure) you can push the EL a little higher, into the risky territory, thus moving from "PCs unlikely to die" to "some PCs might die", and thus a more intense closure. Alternatively, you can let the PCs rest before a powerful final encounter, but this is more likely to go the "wrong" way if the PCs get unlucky.
Shaken, not Stunned 07-05-05, 10:52 PM	I suggest you drop the ice devil, use the dragon as your BBEG for the day (and play him really, really smart), and for encounter three use a really diveous puzzle-trap thing. Dragons are notoriously difficult for their CR. As is, it should work out OK if your players are clever and you don't punish them for being creative.
Gutcheck Hammerfall 07-06-05, 01:11 AM	I thought the rule for CR's was the if you double the number of Creatures, then the CR goes up by 2. For example two CR 3's = CR 5. This is in line with the chart in the DMG 3.5 page 49. Quote: "...so that four CR 7 creatures (say, four hill giants) are an EL 11 encounters, as are eight CR 5 creatures..." 1 CR 7 = 7; 2 CR 7 = 9 (7+2); 4 CR 7 = 11 (7+4); with 8 it is CR 13 1 CR 5 = 5; 2 CR 5 = 7 (5=2); 4 CR 5 = 9 (5+4); with 8 it is CR 11 seems pretty straight forward. every time you double the number, add two to the EL.
Gutcheck Hammerfall 07-06-05, 01:16 AM	thanks for the help people. i've planned a session which was four level 11 characters, during which they were going to fight: 5 trolls (CR 9?) 2 Frost Giants (CR 10?) 1 Mature Adult White Dragon (CR 12) 1 Ice Devil (CR 13) jogan 2 Frost Giants is an EL 11 (1 = 9, 2 = 11 [you double the encounter, so add two to CR]) DMG 3.5 49-50 Only correction.