2 Questions...(sorta long but need help!!!!) [Archive] - Wizards Community

2 Questions...(sorta long but need help!!!!) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MrFahrenheit
12-09-04, 12:54 AM If you're in my campaign (UMBC DnD Tuesday nights at 8) then please don't read.

I'm a relatively new DM who is starting to get a hang of things rather quickly, but let me get right into this:

First problem: I am running a 6 player game. 3 of them are very experienced players and have been helping me (especially one guy). One hasn't played since 2nd edition ADnD was the latest edition out but has quickly adapted despite the ten years off and is fun and helpful. For another one of them, it's her first time playing but she's learning and though quiet, enjoys the game and has not caused any trouble. This leaves number six. One would think slamming doors open just upon entrance would be a strange quirk to snicker at. No. It is just the beginning of his annoyance. Allow me to further elaborate:

A) He is a power gamer. I wouldn't mind this so much if he wouldn't flaunt it and ask in the middle of important scenes or events or combat etc etc how long it would take to scribe every single magical scroll in DnD and if it would be possible for me to meta-give him about a month game time (even though he's only 6th level wizard) to try to do this. I have probably two other power gamers in the party, but they at least have roleplay reasons for being such and don't just take specific combat feats (since they're both melee-ers) to attain such (so I guess they're not really powergamers at all).

B) He is very very annoying simply at the table. We crack jokes quite often and have a good time, but he will always come along with something simply unfunny, crude and disgusting to kill it. (Ex: He plays a gnome wizard. Walks into a bar and says "I look for any medium sized women and say 'hey baby, you know what small people can do?'" and then raises his fist in the air in a quite blatant manner, to the annoyance and aggrovation of everyone at the table).

C) He plays a LN character. His previous one was CN but got killed. Despite this, his whole very mindset is to only play CN, despite whatever his character is supposed to be.

I'm getting quite tired of him. So is the rest of the party. However my dilemma is I'd feel just so bad simply blatantly kicking him out, or having his PC get killed and not allowed to create a new one. I have too much of a conscience in this regard, but would someone share some advice on what they would do/have done in this situation? (Keep in mind that I live at college and seeing him around in general is unavoidable so I sort of don't want to make any enemies).

Second problem: I am running very heavy combat scenarios and this is starting to tire on me simply because I'm seeing it tire on the PCs. I've been able to put it into more of a roleplay game as of late, but this has only consisted of making lots of diplomacy/sense motive checks and not much else. Soon they will be back on the material plane (on Mechanus right now) in occupied territory during a war. While it is obvious to have heavy combat, I want to think of a way in which a much more heavy roleplay situation can figure in for a few sessions.

I was thinking a people-smuggling operation from occupied territory into free territory, but I couldn't think of anything more than bluff checks to keep enemy guards at bay, and having a hidden tunnel or something of that nature already built to get the citizens out (with a few diplomacy checks to keep everyone together). Would someone also give me some advice as how to make this more interesting? (Obviously, killing a few errant enemies would be inevitable in this scenario, as well as killing enemies if they found out, but I do want to keep this extremely rp-heavy).

Thanks to all in advance for any advice!
Vharuck
12-09-04, 01:32 AM First Question: Get rid of him. Replace with me. :P

Seriously though, get rid of him. He's a nuisance who isn't playing the same style game as the others, you included. Tell him this, and suggest he find like-minded friends to start a game that they would enjoy. Nothing personal, just that you don't fit.

But seriously, I'm a UMBC student looking for a group. If you got room for a latecomer or know anyone who does, I'm here.

Second Question: Give them a goal, and let them run. Smuggling refugees is good. But don't give them the tunnel. And make them tell a real bluff, then roll. They'll have to devise everything, making a very engaging non-combat-oriented adventure.
October_Darkness
12-09-04, 01:40 AM Rather than just kicking him out, make sure he knows that his attitude is annoying and unwanted. If that doesn't work, then just give him the old boot.
Chaotica Maxima
12-09-04, 02:39 AM *Hears the distant sound of "Wham, dig, dig"-ing*
Seriously, I wonder why you still have this guy around. He sounds like hes so annoying its ruining both yours and the other players game.
If he truly is the annoying *peep* you make him out to be, I doubt talking to him would work, but I suppose thats one way of doing it.
I'd just give the boot, and watch him fly out of the front door, never to return to your games ever again.
Felonious Monk
12-09-04, 03:26 AM If the rest of the group is in agreement, then someone should have a talk with your problem player. (If you're the only one with a problem, it's on you.) Perhaps one of the old hands could have a word with him, but really, you know your group better than I do (I hope).

With the RP thing, think about your group. Can you think of instances of the kind of roleplaying that you want to occur? Has it happened before, is there a particular situation where it happens?

Alternately, you could put them in a situation where they can't fight to solve problems. Get them imprisoned, or have them stuck in a city or similar and make them solve problems in ways that don't involve metal piercing flesh.
tackleberry
12-09-04, 11:29 AM show him this post! he might need a wake up call to show him that he is a total arse! if that fails... strap on those boots of kicking.
MrFahrenheit
12-09-04, 11:41 AM Vharuck- If I kicked him out, I wouldn't take in a new character until after the winter break (what with two weeks and all left in the semester). At that point however, if your schedule syncs up, we can talk (game would probably still go on Tues at 8).

Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm still thinking up ways to get the smuggling operation done, but you've all helped.

The problem is the guy seems nice enough, he's just completely annoying etc (he's also just sorta....dumb). I'm going to be talking to my PCs (if they ever get online) hopefully before the next game session to see if they all feel the same way (I know two definitely do - one is one of the more experienced guys and the other...well if you anger the new girl who is almost totally quiet most of the time enough that she yells at you it should be a hint and a half). I think the rest of the group is simply too nice like myself to tell him to his face and instead go for the occasional "DUDE! STFU!"

Here's one more problem: He also thinks the group is out to get him. He plays a wizard, as I've said before, in a party where by roleplay background, two PCs HATE arcane spellcasters (one is CG so he puts up with it, but the other is TN). The TN AoO'ed him as he cast a spell last session and then tied and bound him after the fight because he cast web and hit the TN (a meat shield) as well as the party paladin (the other meat shield) who were in the middle of fighting a babau. This is all a session after his first character, a githzerai swashbuckler, was killed by kytons when the player himself was absent from the game, which leads him to think I'm out to get him as well. I've assured him that I'm not out to get him, but I'm still getting quite tired of him in general.

Again, thanks for the advice. If I can get in touch with the other PCs, we will hopefully definitely confront him before next session.
October_Darkness
12-09-04, 11:56 AM Well it's not really a good idea to kill someone's character if they're not there. The other thing is, he probably can guess how you guys sort of feel but doesn't care. Just have a talk with him eventually.
John Bezo
12-09-04, 01:05 PM 1st: What is UMBC, univeristy of M.... B... C... ? just curious

2nd: Talk to the guy once, or just shut him down in game everytime he gets out of line. Next time he interupts one of your discriptions for a useless bit a powergamer crap, just explane that
"Interupting people is rude and interuprting a DM is suicidal so sit down and listen and maybe your character will live thru the day"

If that kind of DM control doesn't change his table manners or convinve him that your table isn't for him, then boot him. It seems that you already have another player lined up.

3rd: As for roleplaying. roleplaying can be fostered by having the PC's work in the same area for more then one adventure. Its a war right, they are going to be escorting people to safty. But they will always return to the orginal starting point.

That is where the RP'ing should be. Maybe one of the refugees is a spy and they find links to a traitor back in there camp but they have to figure out who it is.
Maybe another solider is mad at them for taking the glory or always winning at gambling, or a love interest, or all the other crap that comes from living in close quaters in a stressfull situation.

Maybe the missions are less stressful then being at camp.

J.
rwarner3701
12-09-04, 01:28 PM University of Maryland, Baltimore County

I agree that you should kick him if he does not get in line. Have them spread out talking to various villagers while preparing them for the battle/siege. If he won't do it punish him for the lack of roleplaying by giving others a discount/gift from the grateful people of the town.

good luck
OmiKapSi
12-09-04, 01:51 PM You sound like a mature enough individual that the following advice might help more than it'll hurt.

Being the DM is a matter of making sure that everyone (including yourself) is enjoying the game. On occasion, personality types simply will not mesh, and it sounds like this is the case.

I've had to deal with a number of players who were less well socialized than the majority of the group, and were disruptive to my game as a result. This wasn't their fault, they simply didn't know that their behavior was a problem.

Since it sounds like this is the case, I think that it is important for you to have a serious talk with the player. Explain to him that you consider it your job to make sure that everyone at the table is having fun, no exceptions. (Assuming that you agree with me on this point.) Thus, being 'out to get him' would be totally counterproductive. Make sure that he understands this, and that he is aware that he has the option to simply leave the game if he is having problems with it.
Assuming that he wants to stay, establish that there would need to be a few changes to his play style.

I would recommend that you just set up a blanket rule that rules questions are not covered at the table. This is something that I do, and I find that it works very well. While we are 'in game', there are very few, if any, rules questions. Players declare actions and I describe results. Wherein the rules come up, I make a call on the spot, and it stands. Players have the option to bring up relevant text once per rule, otherwise, it'll be settled later.

Now, we don't spend entire sessions 'in game', and when the party has no immediate purpose, it's perfectly all right to ask or bring up any sort of rules or character related questions or statements. This is the appropriate time to ask about such things as scribing scrolls, or the nature of a feat or rule, or what the nature of the disease that the character is suffering.

Another thing that I do with my players as much as possible is talk to them about what my definition of alignment is. Since I'm running the game, I feel that it is my perogative to determine the exact nature of the alignments, filing in the vague bits. It is a players responsibility to inform me of the alignment that they intend to play, after that, their actions determine their alignment. I tend to be pretty flexible though.
I've had characters shift towards each of the alignment axis in game. I'll warn them that their action is the action of a good person (for example), and that if they do it, I'll make a note. If it becomes a consistent thing, I'll tell them to change the alignment that they have written down.

Another technique I've heard of is that where all character alignments are only noted in the DM's notes, not on character sheets, and players are allowed to ask about their characters current position alignment-wise out of game. This tends to help deal with characters stating one alignment and playing another.

Well, that was longer than anticipated, congratulations if you made it this far, and I hope that there's something in there that's helpful.
MrFahrenheit
12-10-04, 12:24 AM As for the problem player, I'm waiting for 2 more PCs to get back to me on their thoughts (as in, I haven't been able to get ahold of them yet) before I make a decision.

As for the rp: I like both the spy idea and the civilian leader's infidelity with his colleague idea.

My problem is, I don't want to just have the PCs sit down and have back and forth sense motive checks with the former (after narrowing him down from a cast of five using sense motive checks) and then kill/do what they will with him, and I don't want to have just diplomacy checks to reconcile the two leaders in the latter example. I come up with good combat encounters, but it's hard for me to come up with good rp-based scenarios when it comes down to really important events past "make DC, get XP, let's move on now..."

Again, thanks to any and all for advice!
fireangel37
12-10-04, 09:57 AM You should probably be making the sense motive checks for your party, so that they can't see the rolls. Given that, roll up a bunch before hand, make notes as to their modifiers and just look off the sheet whenever it would be appropriate to tell if they notice lies, whatever. That way you get the die rolling out of the RP (since it's an automatic kind of thing, anyway) to some extent.

Second of all, talk to the player before you do anything drastic. It's not fun, and he might even leave in a huff, but it's the fairest way. You're in college, so you're all young. I hate to think of my RP skills back when I was in college. Alternatively, you could try the carrot instead of the stick. Publicly offer rewards for good roleplaying ("Joe, that was great with the lietenant back there, have an extra 500 experience"). Make it clear that being crass without good reason doesn't earn experience and drags down the experience ("Problem player Bob, you did a good job talking to the guard, but the part where you were harassing that woman was a little out of line...").
MrFahrenheit
12-10-04, 02:02 PM But won't the players get mad if I make the checks for them?

Although this has given me quite an idea....I'm definitely going for people smuggling, but how do you hide what is essentially a caravan of 200 people? (6 PCs + 2 leaders + 10 chaplains of the nine gods of good and one of Farlanghn + 32 guards + 150 citizens is what I'm thinking).
John Bezo
12-10-04, 02:10 PM Where will they be traveling.. Behind friendly lines, along the battle lines, or do they have to cross over a unpopulated part of enemy lines..

knowing where they are going, will help you/us know how hiden they need to be.

Either way unless they are under ground or in the air, 200 people on the move is hard to hide, move quickly, and feed..

underground might be the best bet, a mines of moria kind of thing, minus the balrog.

J.
fireangel37
12-10-04, 02:20 PM But won't the players get mad if I make the checks for them?
It depends on the players and your own style, really. As the DM you have the right to make reactive checks for your PCs if you want. Alternatively, you can have each player make a dozen or so skill rolls at the start of the game and then tick them off as they would have been used.

I'm not suggesting that all rolls get made for them, but reactive rolls probably should be. I mean, if the DM asks the players to roll spot when someone is sneaking up on them, it kind of gives away some of the surprise. The same for bluff checks opposed by sense motive checks. Of course, if they're stellar roleplayers who never metagame, it can work.

From a purely speed perspective, it tends to be better, as well. The PCs are more than free to believe someone is lying if he makes his bluff check. The success or failure of such a roll just gives the PC a definite "he's lying" type of feeling.
Ayers
12-10-04, 04:24 PM Here's one more problem: He also thinks the group is out to get him.

Maybe you should just tell him you are out to get him and he'll leave after throwing a little tantrum. :D
Cantankerous
12-10-04, 04:40 PM The unfortunate fact of the matter is that you CAN NOT please all of the people all of the time. Get used to it. If your players are college students one has to hope that by now they'll me mature enough to be talked to. Tll them that you are planning on changing this, the reasons why, and then field their comments. If they're mature you shouldn't have any trouble with them.

Your real problem is that the problem child in your group is decidedly immature. I'm sorry, but suck it up, if he's a nuisance, heave him out. You aren't there to hold his hand for him.

Isshia
MrFahrenheit
12-10-04, 06:01 PM It would start in an occupied city behind enemy lines, probably have a tunnel that would go out into the open over the unpopulated area behind enemy lines, down another constructed tunnel underneath yet another enemy controlled city (which has been de-populated in order to turn it into a frontier fortress), back out of the tunnel AGAIN, and finally to an allied city.

A long trek with a heated dispute between the two civilian leaders as well as a spy in their midst responsible for civilians being picked up every now and again should prove an interesting month-long journey. :devil:

About the problem PC: I'm definitely gonna have a talk with him before this coming session. If his immaturity starts kicking in, then maybe I WILL use the "We ARE out to get you" line :P
SiruisBlack
12-10-04, 06:21 PM I still would try to talk with him. I'd like to think that being an adult means certain innate abilities of reasoning. Some people don't like confrontation and if you feel that way there is nothing wrong with that, but taking on the role of DM requires you to make certain decisions. I believe that if you were honest and just gave him an honest feedback session about his gameplay and listened to his points, then all can be resovled. If not then he does need to find another group. I also like the suggestion of a previous poster that suggested he read this thread.
MrFahrenheit
12-10-04, 08:04 PM Well I talked to the guy and he was understanding enough. Thanks for all the advice everyone. Now I just need to work on my scenario... :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MrFahrenheit 12-09-04, 12:54 AM	If you're in my campaign (UMBC DnD Tuesday nights at 8) then please don't read. I'm a relatively new DM who is starting to get a hang of things rather quickly, but let me get right into this: First problem: I am running a 6 player game. 3 of them are very experienced players and have been helping me (especially one guy). One hasn't played since 2nd edition ADnD was the latest edition out but has quickly adapted despite the ten years off and is fun and helpful. For another one of them, it's her first time playing but she's learning and though quiet, enjoys the game and has not caused any trouble. This leaves number six. One would think slamming doors open just upon entrance would be a strange quirk to snicker at. No. It is just the beginning of his annoyance. Allow me to further elaborate: A) He is a power gamer. I wouldn't mind this so much if he wouldn't flaunt it and ask in the middle of important scenes or events or combat etc etc how long it would take to scribe every single magical scroll in DnD and if it would be possible for me to meta-give him about a month game time (even though he's only 6th level wizard) to try to do this. I have probably two other power gamers in the party, but they at least have roleplay reasons for being such and don't just take specific combat feats (since they're both melee-ers) to attain such (so I guess they're not really powergamers at all). B) He is very very annoying simply at the table. We crack jokes quite often and have a good time, but he will always come along with something simply unfunny, crude and disgusting to kill it. (Ex: He plays a gnome wizard. Walks into a bar and says "I look for any medium sized women and say 'hey baby, you know what small people can do?'" and then raises his fist in the air in a quite blatant manner, to the annoyance and aggrovation of everyone at the table). C) He plays a LN character. His previous one was CN but got killed. Despite this, his whole very mindset is to only play CN, despite whatever his character is supposed to be. I'm getting quite tired of him. So is the rest of the party. However my dilemma is I'd feel just so bad simply blatantly kicking him out, or having his PC get killed and not allowed to create a new one. I have too much of a conscience in this regard, but would someone share some advice on what they would do/have done in this situation? (Keep in mind that I live at college and seeing him around in general is unavoidable so I sort of don't want to make any enemies). Second problem: I am running very heavy combat scenarios and this is starting to tire on me simply because I'm seeing it tire on the PCs. I've been able to put it into more of a roleplay game as of late, but this has only consisted of making lots of diplomacy/sense motive checks and not much else. Soon they will be back on the material plane (on Mechanus right now) in occupied territory during a war. While it is obvious to have heavy combat, I want to think of a way in which a much more heavy roleplay situation can figure in for a few sessions. I was thinking a people-smuggling operation from occupied territory into free territory, but I couldn't think of anything more than bluff checks to keep enemy guards at bay, and having a hidden tunnel or something of that nature already built to get the citizens out (with a few diplomacy checks to keep everyone together). Would someone also give me some advice as how to make this more interesting? (Obviously, killing a few errant enemies would be inevitable in this scenario, as well as killing enemies if they found out, but I do want to keep this extremely rp-heavy). Thanks to all in advance for any advice!
Vharuck 12-09-04, 01:32 AM	First Question: Get rid of him. Replace with me. :P Seriously though, get rid of him. He's a nuisance who isn't playing the same style game as the others, you included. Tell him this, and suggest he find like-minded friends to start a game that they would enjoy. Nothing personal, just that you don't fit. But seriously, I'm a UMBC student looking for a group. If you got room for a latecomer or know anyone who does, I'm here. Second Question: Give them a goal, and let them run. Smuggling refugees is good. But don't give them the tunnel. And make them tell a real bluff, then roll. They'll have to devise everything, making a very engaging non-combat-oriented adventure.
October_Darkness 12-09-04, 01:40 AM	Rather than just kicking him out, make sure he knows that his attitude is annoying and unwanted. If that doesn't work, then just give him the old boot.
Chaotica Maxima 12-09-04, 02:39 AM	Hears the distant sound of "Wham, dig, dig"-ing Seriously, I wonder why you still have this guy around. He sounds like hes so annoying its ruining both yours and the other players game. If he truly is the annoying peep you make him out to be, I doubt talking to him would work, but I suppose thats one way of doing it. I'd just give the boot, and watch him fly out of the front door, never to return to your games ever again.
Felonious Monk 12-09-04, 03:26 AM	If the rest of the group is in agreement, then someone should have a talk with your problem player. (If you're the only one with a problem, it's on you.) Perhaps one of the old hands could have a word with him, but really, you know your group better than I do (I hope). With the RP thing, think about your group. Can you think of instances of the kind of roleplaying that you want to occur? Has it happened before, is there a particular situation where it happens? Alternately, you could put them in a situation where they can't fight to solve problems. Get them imprisoned, or have them stuck in a city or similar and make them solve problems in ways that don't involve metal piercing flesh.
tackleberry 12-09-04, 11:29 AM	show him this post! he might need a wake up call to show him that he is a total arse! if that fails... strap on those boots of kicking.
MrFahrenheit 12-09-04, 11:41 AM	Vharuck- If I kicked him out, I wouldn't take in a new character until after the winter break (what with two weeks and all left in the semester). At that point however, if your schedule syncs up, we can talk (game would probably still go on Tues at 8). Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm still thinking up ways to get the smuggling operation done, but you've all helped. The problem is the guy seems nice enough, he's just completely annoying etc (he's also just sorta....dumb). I'm going to be talking to my PCs (if they ever get online) hopefully before the next game session to see if they all feel the same way (I know two definitely do - one is one of the more experienced guys and the other...well if you anger the new girl who is almost totally quiet most of the time enough that she yells at you it should be a hint and a half). I think the rest of the group is simply too nice like myself to tell him to his face and instead go for the occasional "DUDE! STFU!" Here's one more problem: He also thinks the group is out to get him. He plays a wizard, as I've said before, in a party where by roleplay background, two PCs HATE arcane spellcasters (one is CG so he puts up with it, but the other is TN). The TN AoO'ed him as he cast a spell last session and then tied and bound him after the fight because he cast web and hit the TN (a meat shield) as well as the party paladin (the other meat shield) who were in the middle of fighting a babau. This is all a session after his first character, a githzerai swashbuckler, was killed by kytons when the player himself was absent from the game, which leads him to think I'm out to get him as well. I've assured him that I'm not out to get him, but I'm still getting quite tired of him in general. Again, thanks for the advice. If I can get in touch with the other PCs, we will hopefully definitely confront him before next session.
October_Darkness 12-09-04, 11:56 AM	Well it's not really a good idea to kill someone's character if they're not there. The other thing is, he probably can guess how you guys sort of feel but doesn't care. Just have a talk with him eventually.
John Bezo 12-09-04, 01:05 PM	1st: What is UMBC, univeristy of M.... B... C... ? just curious 2nd: Talk to the guy once, or just shut him down in game everytime he gets out of line. Next time he interupts one of your discriptions for a useless bit a powergamer crap, just explane that "Interupting people is rude and interuprting a DM is suicidal so sit down and listen and maybe your character will live thru the day" If that kind of DM control doesn't change his table manners or convinve him that your table isn't for him, then boot him. It seems that you already have another player lined up. 3rd: As for roleplaying. roleplaying can be fostered by having the PC's work in the same area for more then one adventure. Its a war right, they are going to be escorting people to safty. But they will always return to the orginal starting point. That is where the RP'ing should be. Maybe one of the refugees is a spy and they find links to a traitor back in there camp but they have to figure out who it is. Maybe another solider is mad at them for taking the glory or always winning at gambling, or a love interest, or all the other crap that comes from living in close quaters in a stressfull situation. Maybe the missions are less stressful then being at camp. J.
rwarner3701 12-09-04, 01:28 PM	University of Maryland, Baltimore County I agree that you should kick him if he does not get in line. Have them spread out talking to various villagers while preparing them for the battle/siege. If he won't do it punish him for the lack of roleplaying by giving others a discount/gift from the grateful people of the town. good luck
OmiKapSi 12-09-04, 01:51 PM	You sound like a mature enough individual that the following advice might help more than it'll hurt. Being the DM is a matter of making sure that everyone (including yourself) is enjoying the game. On occasion, personality types simply will not mesh, and it sounds like this is the case. I've had to deal with a number of players who were less well socialized than the majority of the group, and were disruptive to my game as a result. This wasn't their fault, they simply didn't know that their behavior was a problem. Since it sounds like this is the case, I think that it is important for you to have a serious talk with the player. Explain to him that you consider it your job to make sure that everyone at the table is having fun, no exceptions. (Assuming that you agree with me on this point.) Thus, being 'out to get him' would be totally counterproductive. Make sure that he understands this, and that he is aware that he has the option to simply leave the game if he is having problems with it. Assuming that he wants to stay, establish that there would need to be a few changes to his play style. I would recommend that you just set up a blanket rule that rules questions are not covered at the table. This is something that I do, and I find that it works very well. While we are 'in game', there are very few, if any, rules questions. Players declare actions and I describe results. Wherein the rules come up, I make a call on the spot, and it stands. Players have the option to bring up relevant text once per rule, otherwise, it'll be settled later. Now, we don't spend entire sessions 'in game', and when the party has no immediate purpose, it's perfectly all right to ask or bring up any sort of rules or character related questions or statements. This is the appropriate time to ask about such things as scribing scrolls, or the nature of a feat or rule, or what the nature of the disease that the character is suffering. Another thing that I do with my players as much as possible is talk to them about what my definition of alignment is. Since I'm running the game, I feel that it is my perogative to determine the exact nature of the alignments, filing in the vague bits. It is a players responsibility to inform me of the alignment that they intend to play, after that, their actions determine their alignment. I tend to be pretty flexible though. I've had characters shift towards each of the alignment axis in game. I'll warn them that their action is the action of a good person (for example), and that if they do it, I'll make a note. If it becomes a consistent thing, I'll tell them to change the alignment that they have written down. Another technique I've heard of is that where all character alignments are only noted in the DM's notes, not on character sheets, and players are allowed to ask about their characters current position alignment-wise out of game. This tends to help deal with characters stating one alignment and playing another. Well, that was longer than anticipated, congratulations if you made it this far, and I hope that there's something in there that's helpful.
MrFahrenheit 12-10-04, 12:24 AM	As for the problem player, I'm waiting for 2 more PCs to get back to me on their thoughts (as in, I haven't been able to get ahold of them yet) before I make a decision. As for the rp: I like both the spy idea and the civilian leader's infidelity with his colleague idea. My problem is, I don't want to just have the PCs sit down and have back and forth sense motive checks with the former (after narrowing him down from a cast of five using sense motive checks) and then kill/do what they will with him, and I don't want to have just diplomacy checks to reconcile the two leaders in the latter example. I come up with good combat encounters, but it's hard for me to come up with good rp-based scenarios when it comes down to really important events past "make DC, get XP, let's move on now..." Again, thanks to any and all for advice!
fireangel37 12-10-04, 09:57 AM	You should probably be making the sense motive checks for your party, so that they can't see the rolls. Given that, roll up a bunch before hand, make notes as to their modifiers and just look off the sheet whenever it would be appropriate to tell if they notice lies, whatever. That way you get the die rolling out of the RP (since it's an automatic kind of thing, anyway) to some extent. Second of all, talk to the player before you do anything drastic. It's not fun, and he might even leave in a huff, but it's the fairest way. You're in college, so you're all young. I hate to think of my RP skills back when I was in college. Alternatively, you could try the carrot instead of the stick. Publicly offer rewards for good roleplaying ("Joe, that was great with the lietenant back there, have an extra 500 experience"). Make it clear that being crass without good reason doesn't earn experience and drags down the experience ("Problem player Bob, you did a good job talking to the guard, but the part where you were harassing that woman was a little out of line...").
MrFahrenheit 12-10-04, 02:02 PM	But won't the players get mad if I make the checks for them? Although this has given me quite an idea....I'm definitely going for people smuggling, but how do you hide what is essentially a caravan of 200 people? (6 PCs + 2 leaders + 10 chaplains of the nine gods of good and one of Farlanghn + 32 guards + 150 citizens is what I'm thinking).
John Bezo 12-10-04, 02:10 PM	Where will they be traveling.. Behind friendly lines, along the battle lines, or do they have to cross over a unpopulated part of enemy lines.. knowing where they are going, will help you/us know how hiden they need to be. Either way unless they are under ground or in the air, 200 people on the move is hard to hide, move quickly, and feed.. underground might be the best bet, a mines of moria kind of thing, minus the balrog. J.
fireangel37 12-10-04, 02:20 PM	But won't the players get mad if I make the checks for them? It depends on the players and your own style, really. As the DM you have the right to make reactive checks for your PCs if you want. Alternatively, you can have each player make a dozen or so skill rolls at the start of the game and then tick them off as they would have been used. I'm not suggesting that all rolls get made for them, but reactive rolls probably should be. I mean, if the DM asks the players to roll spot when someone is sneaking up on them, it kind of gives away some of the surprise. The same for bluff checks opposed by sense motive checks. Of course, if they're stellar roleplayers who never metagame, it can work. From a purely speed perspective, it tends to be better, as well. The PCs are more than free to believe someone is lying if he makes his bluff check. The success or failure of such a roll just gives the PC a definite "he's lying" type of feeling.
Ayers 12-10-04, 04:24 PM	Here's one more problem: He also thinks the group is out to get him. Maybe you should just tell him you are out to get him and he'll leave after throwing a little tantrum. :D
Cantankerous 12-10-04, 04:40 PM	The unfortunate fact of the matter is that you CAN NOT please all of the people all of the time. Get used to it. If your players are college students one has to hope that by now they'll me mature enough to be talked to. Tll them that you are planning on changing this, the reasons why, and then field their comments. If they're mature you shouldn't have any trouble with them. Your real problem is that the problem child in your group is decidedly immature. I'm sorry, but suck it up, if he's a nuisance, heave him out. You aren't there to hold his hand for him. Isshia
MrFahrenheit 12-10-04, 06:01 PM	It would start in an occupied city behind enemy lines, probably have a tunnel that would go out into the open over the unpopulated area behind enemy lines, down another constructed tunnel underneath yet another enemy controlled city (which has been de-populated in order to turn it into a frontier fortress), back out of the tunnel AGAIN, and finally to an allied city. A long trek with a heated dispute between the two civilian leaders as well as a spy in their midst responsible for civilians being picked up every now and again should prove an interesting month-long journey. :devil: About the problem PC: I'm definitely gonna have a talk with him before this coming session. If his immaturity starts kicking in, then maybe I WILL use the "We ARE out to get you" line :P
SiruisBlack 12-10-04, 06:21 PM	I still would try to talk with him. I'd like to think that being an adult means certain innate abilities of reasoning. Some people don't like confrontation and if you feel that way there is nothing wrong with that, but taking on the role of DM requires you to make certain decisions. I believe that if you were honest and just gave him an honest feedback session about his gameplay and listened to his points, then all can be resovled. If not then he does need to find another group. I also like the suggestion of a previous poster that suggested he read this thread.
MrFahrenheit 12-10-04, 08:04 PM	Well I talked to the guy and he was understanding enough. Thanks for all the advice everyone. Now I just need to work on my scenario... :)