20 ranks of herbalist...lame? [Archive] - Wizards Community

20 ranks of herbalist...lame? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KingMerv02
02-24-06, 05:36 PM One of my players is doing a good job of roleplaying and wants to max out his ranks in Profession:Herbalist every level. How do I go about rewarding that kind of commitment? Magic is far more powerful than herbs, won't it become utterly useless by 3rd level or so?

He is a monk BTW.
Faithless the Wonder Boy
02-24-06, 05:49 PM Two ways.

1: Monetary rewards. The rules for Profession checks leading to monetary gains are quite simple. If you'd like, you can change this up a little. Every time the character utilizes the Profession (Herbalist) skill for someone else, they pay him in gratitude, the amount they pay being based on the Profession check. There are tables for determining that under the Profession skill in the PHB.

2: Change how it works! Don't make it a powerful substitute for magic, but allow Profession (Herbalist) to help him make items modeled after alchemical items. Sure, a potion of Cure Serious will be a lot better than that healing salve, but perhaps the healing salve is cheaper, and therefore more readily available. Nothing too powerful - the character should understand that he is giving up other skills for this, and can always start taking ranks in something else later if it really bothers him. It's his choice, after all.
KJW
02-24-06, 05:49 PM You can come up various concoctions he could develop with incredibly high DCs. Sure magic is more potent, but look at the real world and all the medicines and treatments we have, which are derived from herbalism. Also toss in the existence of magical plants and the like and you could have a high-level herbalist matching magical potions. Some ideas off the top of my head, a medicine which automotically stabilizes a person, a concoction that adds pluses to a person trying to control their lycanthropy, maybe something that gives bonuses to saving throws or abilities for a brief time, just think along those lines. I imagine that somewhere there is a copious amount of d20 rules on herbalism.
RevIron
02-24-06, 05:54 PM May I suggest - 1d8hp Healing Salve DC50, 1d4hp Healing Salve DC25, 1hp Healing Salve - DC17 - as a starting point?

Also, it should be possible to cure a disease by making a herbal concoction, the DC should be 10+Fort Save to throw off disease IMO.
CryoSilver
02-24-06, 05:55 PM 50? WHo the hell can make a DC 50 check?

I'd make the DC 30.
primemover003
02-24-06, 06:02 PM Try finding the rules for Drugs (in either Lords of Darkness or the Book of Vile Darkness) and using those mechanics as the basis for making salves, poultices, and other remedies. Drugs usually give Alchemical bonuses, so you could stick to that or just call it a Medicinal bonus.

Things like +2 to a skill check for an hour, or a boost to an Ability for one minute would make nice bonuses...
RevIron
02-24-06, 06:07 PM It's supposed to be equal to a Cure Light Wounds - as for who can make a DC50 check, a 7th level characater who's maxed out his ranks in Craft (Herbalism), takes 20 and rolls a natural 20 and has a Wisdom score of 10, it put's him on par with a Paladin of equal level to make the DC 30 for 1d8, 35 for 2d8, 40 for 3d8 and 45 for 4d8 with a succesful 50 for 5d8, with each increase of 1d8 being +5DC, d4 being half the DC of the d8.
Faithless the Wonder Boy
02-24-06, 06:10 PM 50? WHo the hell can make a DC 50 check?

I'd make the DC 30.

I've seen DC 50 checks made by level 3 or 4. It's rare, and requires a good bit of min/maxing, but it's more than possible.

If you have doubts, shuffle on over to the CharOp boards. There's actually a thread, the 10^100 challenge, where people are challenged to make characters capable of skill checks that should be impossible. Things like jumping a mile in the air, walking on clouds, etcetera.

But anyways, for a simple explanation...

Wisdom fuels Profession. A character who starts with an 18 in Wisdom, puts five ability boosts there, and buys items to further wisdom (+6 periapt of Wisdom, +5 tome) will have a Wisdom of 34, with almost no min-maxing, at level 20. If you're dealing with levels that high, you should be able to expect bonuses around there. That's +12, +23 from ranks, so +35 bonus. So, without any silly tricks, a 20th level character with maximized wisdom and full ranks will hit DC 50 on a roll of 15. Tough, but not impossible.

I do agree that DC 50 is a little high for healing only 1d8 points, though.
RevIron
02-24-06, 06:21 PM I do agree that DC 50 is a little high for healing only 1d8 points, though.

Which is why I made the revised suggestion of 5d8 points in my second post - the figures are intended to be what a character with 18 Wisdom and Maximum Ranks in the skill would be able to achieve on a roll of 11 when a Paladin gets accesses to the spell level that lets Clerics Cure that many dice of damage. It actually is possible at 7th level within these condions on a roll of 19 to get a result of 30 with a character with maximum ranks and no wisdom bonus or penalties, so that will be decreased by the characters actual Wisdom Bonus,
Lincoln Hills
02-24-06, 06:30 PM You should definitely reward the character's choice of skills (occasionally), just like the guy who took ranks in Disguise or Knowledge (undead) should sometimes shine. You, the DM, might have to fabricate more info about your world's plant-lore than you would otherwise, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Herbs don't necessarily have to be less POWERFUL than magic, but they should almost always be much, much more specialized. Let's say the group knows that giant scorpions infest Dungeon A. Your herbalist may know that a combination of certain roots (found only in Forest B) and dried aconite (available at practically any village healer's) will improve one's odds against that particular poison. See? - It only works to prepare the group against one particular poison, but the gang will probably be glad to get a +2 (or more, if you feel the effort necessary to get the herbs deserves greater reward) against that particular saving throw.

Herbs might grant unusual skill bonuses (usually with a trade-off: a drugged incense that causes improved Scry checks might penalize just about every other skill and check!) or improve saving throws. In rare circumstances they might even grant an outright immunity (for instance, a particularly vile-tasting mixture might cause charm spells to fail automatically for the few minutes the herb is active.)

Remember that any really powerful herb should probably be balanced both by a side-effect or two, and by rarity (not just "hard to find," but genuinely RARE - otherwise locate object will be in constant use by the group, if you know what I mean.)
DanjaNinja
02-24-06, 06:36 PM ...takes 20 and rolls a natural 20...
You realize that when you take 20, you don't roll again, right? You don't add +20 to your roll, you just add all your bonuses as if you had rolled a 20. The most the character in your example could make is a 30.

A level 20 character with max ranks and a +7 bonus in the appropriate ability score could make a DC 50 on a natural 20 alone. Of course, certain feats and/or magic items could conceivably allow someone to get a 50 earlier than that.
Board_Rider
02-24-06, 06:39 PM It's supposed to be equal to a Cure Light Wounds - as for who can make a DC50 check, a 7th level characater who's maxed out his ranks in Craft (Herbalism), takes 20 and rolls a natural 20 and has a Wisdom score of 10, it put's him on par with a Paladin of equal level to make the DC 30 for 1d8, 35 for 2d8, 40 for 3d8 and 45 for 4d8 with a succesful 50 for 5d8, with each increase of 1d8 being +5DC, d4 being half the DC of the d8.
Just to nitpick:
You can't take 20 AND roll. Taking 20 replaces the roll. Besides a nearly impossible task is DC40 in the PHB. Taking 20 assumes that you fail many times, if you fail many times you could lose half of the raw materials as per the craft skill text. Thats not good.

Profession (as with craft) skill checks are assumed for 1 weeks work..taking 20 would mean 20 weeks generally. Of course, if this is a house rule of yours...cool.

As for PCs maxing this out. Great. Let the guy get some downtime and make some cash. Give a +2 (or 4) to Knowledge: Nature rolls when they pretain to plants. Give the PC the same bonus when appraising or crafting poisons. Or even identifiying them.

Good luck,
BR
Melpomene
02-24-06, 06:39 PM Make interesting herbs.

While identifying useful plants is usually the perview of Know: Nature or Survival, it certainly crosses over here. If you throw in interesting herbage; trap-like, spell-like, or item-like, the ranks pay off.
Purkake
02-24-06, 06:44 PM It's supposed to be equal to a Cure Light Wounds - as for who can make a DC50 check, a 7th level characater who's maxed out his ranks in Craft (Herbalism), takes 20 and rolls a natural 20 and has a Wisdom score of 10, it put's him on par with a Paladin of equal level to make the DC 30 for 1d8, 35 for 2d8, 40 for 3d8 and 45 for 4d8 with a succesful 50 for 5d8, with each increase of 1d8 being +5DC, d4 being half the DC of the d8.

Taking 20 IS trying until you roll a 20 so you still need 20 more points there.

Also you try 20 times so you need a lot of materials for that.

Edit: beaten to it.. twice
Lokathor
02-24-06, 06:52 PM edit: beaten to the "taking 20" thing.. I left the window open and walked away before actually posting..

As to the topic, if a player wants to put 20 ranks in a less than optimal skill, why stop them? They know what they're giving up, and the picked it anyways.
RevIron
02-24-06, 07:11 PM Just to nitpick:
You can't take 20 AND roll. Taking 20 replaces the roll. Besides a nearly impossible task is DC40 in the PHB. Taking 20 assumes that you fail many times, if you fail many times you could lose half of the raw materials as per the craft skill text. Thats not good.

Profession (as with craft) skill checks are assumed for 1 weeks work..taking 20 would mean 20 weeks generally. Of course, if this is a house rule of yours...cool.

As for PCs maxing this out. Great. Let the guy get some downtime and make some cash. Give a +2 (or 4) to Knowledge: Nature rolls when they pretain to plants. Give the PC the same bonus when appraising or crafting poisons. Or even identifiying them.

Good luck,
BR

The House Rule in question shouldn't actually apply to craft skills - it reads:

When you take twenty, if the DC is higher than the result a natural 20 would give then add 20 and roll again, you may reroll every 20 rolled and add 20.
You may also reroll all other natural 20s rolled, adding 20 to the result of the next roll for the same task rolled at that time.

I haven't read the rules on taking 20 for a while anyway and that's what led to the confusion (taking 20 on craft checks isn't allowed under RAW anyway due to the 1/2 Raw Materials wasted thing)
edwardsobel
02-24-06, 07:45 PM bit on how I do Herbalism:
usually a craft skill but could be Profession as well

Herbalism (int) – Proficiency that allows the character to find and make poisons, salves and general mixtures that provide a varied number of negative effects. Also allows the character to bind wounds, slow poisons and find herbs used to restore health and treat all sorts of illness. Just by gaining one rank giving access to being able to find and use various healing herbs. All herbs can only be found between Spring and Fall, no herbs can be found in the winter.

Synergys 5 ranks in herbalism +2 to Heal, +2 craft Poisonmaking.
5 ranks knowledge nature give +2 to herbalism rolls

Note that the Heal skill is required for wound treatment and stabization rolls and long term care, while craft poisonmaking is making poisons using animal venom such from spiders and scorpions.

DC 12 Very minor injury or ability injury herbs.
DC 15 Minor injury or ability injury herbs
DC 20 Moderate injury or ability injury herbs, some effect herbs.
DC 24 Major injury or ability injury herbs, assorted effect herbs.
DC 27 Powerful injury or ability injury herbs, assorted major effect herbs.
DC 30 Rare and exotic herbs, herbs than can kill or permanently incapacitate.

some examples at each level:

Level 1 (DC 12):
Nerupia Sap: Heals 1 strength damage
Conulod Berries: Causes 1 point of temporary dexterity damage (save DC12)

Level 2: (DC 15):
Chalunga root: Heals 1d6 hp
Beruggia Berries: Causes subject to fall asleep for 1d3 hours. (Save DC 15)

Level 3 (DC 20):
Tempest Berries: Temp boost to strength, +1 for 1 hour
Root of Gorthar: Causes massive vomiting, -1 to strength and incapacitation for 1d4 rounds. (Save DC 17)

Level 4 (DC 24)
Worgar Root: Temp boost in reflexes, +3 reflex save for 1 hour
Viral asti seed extract: 1d8 points of damage, can coat a weapon for 3 strikes
(Save DC 19)

Level 5 (DC 27)
Caspore berries: Heals 5d8 hp damage
Braviar sap: 1d6 points of temporary strength damage (Save DC 21)

Level 6 (DC 30)
Stalk of the Dodematee: Imparts a Magic Resistance of 15 for 1 hour.
Plague olives: Disease which infects anyone who subject is in physical contact with, all affected suffer a permanent loss of 1d4 charisma points
(Save DC 23)

There are bonuses and penalties depending on terrain and climate (ie season/weather) many of the ill effects work like poisons and some have secondary effects all will have a monetary market value as well.
DanjaNinja
02-24-06, 08:08 PM Just a note on healing potions/salves--for me, instantaneous healing belongs solely in the realm of magic. If I were to allow a character to make mundane medical items, I would probably stick with things that give bonuses to saves or increase the rate or amount of natural healing.
Hariman
02-24-06, 09:39 PM Any Alchemical Healing should either convert Lethal Damage to Nonlethal or have a delay of several minutes so that it can't be used in battle.

The Iron Kingdoms books have Alchemical Healing items in them. Most have side effects like a fort save or 1d3 dex damage.
Kage_Ryu
02-24-06, 09:56 PM Herbalism has an extreme advantage over Potions in the fact that Herbs can be made anywhere potions can (Assuming that because there's the components there would be components for Herbs) and they can be made in the wild.

Perhaps you use magical ingrediants in the herbs, or that the herbs are magically enhanced somehow. In order to increase the potency.

As herbalism increases it could take less time to make herbal treatments, I mean potions take a little time, an herbal tea can be made in a minute.

Herbs can cure diseases/poisons like healing. Herbs are non-magical so magic disliking characters would be at ease around them.

Herbalism might lead to a bit of cooking ability.

Herbalism is a Profession after all! It can make money! Like the guy's before have said.

And don't forget! The best reward you can give to someone dedicated to a skill - Is by allowing them to use it. Who cares if it doesn't beat other skills in use, if it's used then it was worth it. I mean, when I hear about people playing other people's campaign's I sometimes hear, "Oh none of my scout's abilities were useful, I don't think I'm going to like this campaign". Even though some skill is useless, to be able to use it make's a player happy.

Soo just do things like others and myself have said.

You could always make herbalism interesting... Since herbalism is nature oriented it might help him get along with druids (+2 to diplomacy synergy), survivalism (+2 synergy), Heal (+2 synergy).

An interesting bonus could be: If you make a heal check with herbs you have prepared, every 5 points after the DC to make the herbs allows an extra +1 to the heal check.
edwardsobel
02-24-06, 10:28 PM Just a note on healing potions/salves--for me, instantaneous healing belongs solely in the realm of magic. If I were to allow a character to make mundane medical items, I would probably stick with things that give bonuses to saves or increase the rate or amount of natural healing.

actually with mine (although I failed to list everything as that would make for a rather long post) do have an onset time thus applying the healing salve that heals 5d8 damage must be applied and could take anywhere from 1d4 rounds to minutes or even hours to actually take effect.

so the instant healing is still magic.
Tashanen
02-25-06, 03:21 AM Let him put his skills anywhere he wants. Though if he wants superior benifits from the herbalism skill have him buy you a PDF copy of the Alchemy & Herbalists from Bastion Press.

Alchemy & Herbalists (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=5914&)
Reis
02-25-06, 03:30 AM many of the poisons in the DMG require herbs as ingredients...black lotus extract...

another option is to allow rare herbs gathered by the PC to act as an experience substitute when using the Brew Potion feat
rkr1970
02-25-06, 11:47 AM First, if he wants plenty of role-playing opportunities, he should provide some options himself. You might suggest that he pick up Bastion Press' Alchemy & Herbalism (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=5914&). For $10, he'll have a ton of new uses for this skill.

In addition, I'm sure you could find unusual ways to use this ability in your game. something along these lines strikes me as fun...

DM: The swamp seems to get calmer as the party walks through it. Bird song is hushing, giving way to the sound of the breeze. The insects aren't biting as much as they were a few moments ago. It's like an almost perfect moment. Monk, give me a spot check.
Monk: Um.. ok. <<rolls nervously>> 18!
DM: Cool. You spot a very rare and highly prized plant in the underbrush at the water's edge. It's called Black Fang Leaf. Normally collected for its ability to neutralize acids, it can also be used to treat chemical burns quite effectively.
Monk: Wow! That's neat. I harvest them. How much can I collect?
DM: You are able to get a quarter pound of the bright green oval leaves.
Monk: Bright green oval leaves? I thought you called it black fang leaf?
DM: I did. It's called that because it only grows in the fresh dung of a mature black dragon, not because of how it looks.
Monk: Oh! OK. Oh... Crap! Um... Guys...?
DM: Just as the party turns to listen to what you have to say, you get a feeling of absolute dread running through you, but whether from the now widened eyes of your companions, or from the ominous rushing of water behind you, its hard to say. The rest of you, just as you're turning to hear what the monk has to say, see a large, black, horned head rise slowly from the waters of the swamp behind him.

Let him take the herbalism. It doesn't hurt your campaign, and there are so many fun things you can do with it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KingMerv02 02-24-06, 05:36 PM	One of my players is doing a good job of roleplaying and wants to max out his ranks in Profession:Herbalist every level. How do I go about rewarding that kind of commitment? Magic is far more powerful than herbs, won't it become utterly useless by 3rd level or so? He is a monk BTW.
Faithless the Wonder Boy 02-24-06, 05:49 PM	Two ways. 1: Monetary rewards. The rules for Profession checks leading to monetary gains are quite simple. If you'd like, you can change this up a little. Every time the character utilizes the Profession (Herbalist) skill for someone else, they pay him in gratitude, the amount they pay being based on the Profession check. There are tables for determining that under the Profession skill in the PHB. 2: Change how it works! Don't make it a powerful substitute for magic, but allow Profession (Herbalist) to help him make items modeled after alchemical items. Sure, a potion of Cure Serious will be a lot better than that healing salve, but perhaps the healing salve is cheaper, and therefore more readily available. Nothing too powerful - the character should understand that he is giving up other skills for this, and can always start taking ranks in something else later if it really bothers him. It's his choice, after all.
KJW 02-24-06, 05:49 PM	You can come up various concoctions he could develop with incredibly high DCs. Sure magic is more potent, but look at the real world and all the medicines and treatments we have, which are derived from herbalism. Also toss in the existence of magical plants and the like and you could have a high-level herbalist matching magical potions. Some ideas off the top of my head, a medicine which automotically stabilizes a person, a concoction that adds pluses to a person trying to control their lycanthropy, maybe something that gives bonuses to saving throws or abilities for a brief time, just think along those lines. I imagine that somewhere there is a copious amount of d20 rules on herbalism.
RevIron 02-24-06, 05:54 PM	May I suggest - 1d8hp Healing Salve DC50, 1d4hp Healing Salve DC25, 1hp Healing Salve - DC17 - as a starting point? Also, it should be possible to cure a disease by making a herbal concoction, the DC should be 10+Fort Save to throw off disease IMO.
CryoSilver 02-24-06, 05:55 PM	50? WHo the hell can make a DC 50 check? I'd make the DC 30.
primemover003 02-24-06, 06:02 PM	Try finding the rules for Drugs (in either Lords of Darkness or the Book of Vile Darkness) and using those mechanics as the basis for making salves, poultices, and other remedies. Drugs usually give Alchemical bonuses, so you could stick to that or just call it a Medicinal bonus. Things like +2 to a skill check for an hour, or a boost to an Ability for one minute would make nice bonuses...
RevIron 02-24-06, 06:07 PM	It's supposed to be equal to a Cure Light Wounds - as for who can make a DC50 check, a 7th level characater who's maxed out his ranks in Craft (Herbalism), takes 20 and rolls a natural 20 and has a Wisdom score of 10, it put's him on par with a Paladin of equal level to make the DC 30 for 1d8, 35 for 2d8, 40 for 3d8 and 45 for 4d8 with a succesful 50 for 5d8, with each increase of 1d8 being +5DC, d4 being half the DC of the d8.
Faithless the Wonder Boy 02-24-06, 06:10 PM	50? WHo the hell can make a DC 50 check? I'd make the DC 30. I've seen DC 50 checks made by level 3 or 4. It's rare, and requires a good bit of min/maxing, but it's more than possible. If you have doubts, shuffle on over to the CharOp boards. There's actually a thread, the 10^100 challenge, where people are challenged to make characters capable of skill checks that should be impossible. Things like jumping a mile in the air, walking on clouds, etcetera. But anyways, for a simple explanation... Wisdom fuels Profession. A character who starts with an 18 in Wisdom, puts five ability boosts there, and buys items to further wisdom (+6 periapt of Wisdom, +5 tome) will have a Wisdom of 34, with almost no min-maxing, at level 20. If you're dealing with levels that high, you should be able to expect bonuses around there. That's +12, +23 from ranks, so +35 bonus. So, without any silly tricks, a 20th level character with maximized wisdom and full ranks will hit DC 50 on a roll of 15. Tough, but not impossible. I do agree that DC 50 is a little high for healing only 1d8 points, though.
RevIron 02-24-06, 06:21 PM	I do agree that DC 50 is a little high for healing only 1d8 points, though. Which is why I made the revised suggestion of 5d8 points in my second post - the figures are intended to be what a character with 18 Wisdom and Maximum Ranks in the skill would be able to achieve on a roll of 11 when a Paladin gets accesses to the spell level that lets Clerics Cure that many dice of damage. It actually is possible at 7th level within these condions on a roll of 19 to get a result of 30 with a character with maximum ranks and no wisdom bonus or penalties, so that will be decreased by the characters actual Wisdom Bonus,
Lincoln Hills 02-24-06, 06:30 PM	You should definitely reward the character's choice of skills (occasionally), just like the guy who took ranks in Disguise or Knowledge (undead) should sometimes shine. You, the DM, might have to fabricate more info about your world's plant-lore than you would otherwise, but there's nothing wrong with that. Herbs don't necessarily have to be less POWERFUL than magic, but they should almost always be much, much more specialized. Let's say the group knows that giant scorpions infest Dungeon A. Your herbalist may know that a combination of certain roots (found only in Forest B) and dried aconite (available at practically any village healer's) will improve one's odds against that particular poison. See? - It only works to prepare the group against one particular poison, but the gang will probably be glad to get a +2 (or more, if you feel the effort necessary to get the herbs deserves greater reward) against that particular saving throw. Herbs might grant unusual skill bonuses (usually with a trade-off: a drugged incense that causes improved Scry checks might penalize just about every other skill and check!) or improve saving throws. In rare circumstances they might even grant an outright immunity (for instance, a particularly vile-tasting mixture might cause charm spells to fail automatically for the few minutes the herb is active.) Remember that any really powerful herb should probably be balanced both by a side-effect or two, and by rarity (not just "hard to find," but genuinely RARE - otherwise locate object will be in constant use by the group, if you know what I mean.)
DanjaNinja 02-24-06, 06:36 PM	...takes 20 and rolls a natural 20... You realize that when you take 20, you don't roll again, right? You don't add +20 to your roll, you just add all your bonuses as if you had rolled a 20. The most the character in your example could make is a 30. A level 20 character with max ranks and a +7 bonus in the appropriate ability score could make a DC 50 on a natural 20 alone. Of course, certain feats and/or magic items could conceivably allow someone to get a 50 earlier than that.
Board_Rider 02-24-06, 06:39 PM	It's supposed to be equal to a Cure Light Wounds - as for who can make a DC50 check, a 7th level characater who's maxed out his ranks in Craft (Herbalism), takes 20 and rolls a natural 20 and has a Wisdom score of 10, it put's him on par with a Paladin of equal level to make the DC 30 for 1d8, 35 for 2d8, 40 for 3d8 and 45 for 4d8 with a succesful 50 for 5d8, with each increase of 1d8 being +5DC, d4 being half the DC of the d8. Just to nitpick: You can't take 20 AND roll. Taking 20 replaces the roll. Besides a nearly impossible task is DC40 in the PHB. Taking 20 assumes that you fail many times, if you fail many times you could lose half of the raw materials as per the craft skill text. Thats not good. Profession (as with craft) skill checks are assumed for 1 weeks work..taking 20 would mean 20 weeks generally. Of course, if this is a house rule of yours...cool. As for PCs maxing this out. Great. Let the guy get some downtime and make some cash. Give a +2 (or 4) to Knowledge: Nature rolls when they pretain to plants. Give the PC the same bonus when appraising or crafting poisons. Or even identifiying them. Good luck, BR
Melpomene 02-24-06, 06:39 PM	Make interesting herbs. While identifying useful plants is usually the perview of Know: Nature or Survival, it certainly crosses over here. If you throw in interesting herbage; trap-like, spell-like, or item-like, the ranks pay off.
Purkake 02-24-06, 06:44 PM	It's supposed to be equal to a Cure Light Wounds - as for who can make a DC50 check, a 7th level characater who's maxed out his ranks in Craft (Herbalism), takes 20 and rolls a natural 20 and has a Wisdom score of 10, it put's him on par with a Paladin of equal level to make the DC 30 for 1d8, 35 for 2d8, 40 for 3d8 and 45 for 4d8 with a succesful 50 for 5d8, with each increase of 1d8 being +5DC, d4 being half the DC of the d8. Taking 20 IS trying until you roll a 20 so you still need 20 more points there. Also you try 20 times so you need a lot of materials for that. Edit: beaten to it.. twice
Lokathor 02-24-06, 06:52 PM	edit: beaten to the "taking 20" thing.. I left the window open and walked away before actually posting.. As to the topic, if a player wants to put 20 ranks in a less than optimal skill, why stop them? They know what they're giving up, and the picked it anyways.
RevIron 02-24-06, 07:11 PM	Just to nitpick: You can't take 20 AND roll. Taking 20 replaces the roll. Besides a nearly impossible task is DC40 in the PHB. Taking 20 assumes that you fail many times, if you fail many times you could lose half of the raw materials as per the craft skill text. Thats not good. Profession (as with craft) skill checks are assumed for 1 weeks work..taking 20 would mean 20 weeks generally. Of course, if this is a house rule of yours...cool. As for PCs maxing this out. Great. Let the guy get some downtime and make some cash. Give a +2 (or 4) to Knowledge: Nature rolls when they pretain to plants. Give the PC the same bonus when appraising or crafting poisons. Or even identifiying them. Good luck, BR The House Rule in question shouldn't actually apply to craft skills - it reads: When you take twenty, if the DC is higher than the result a natural 20 would give then add 20 and roll again, you may reroll every 20 rolled and add 20. You may also reroll all other natural 20s rolled, adding 20 to the result of the next roll for the same task rolled at that time. I haven't read the rules on taking 20 for a while anyway and that's what led to the confusion (taking 20 on craft checks isn't allowed under RAW anyway due to the 1/2 Raw Materials wasted thing)
edwardsobel 02-24-06, 07:45 PM	bit on how I do Herbalism: usually a craft skill but could be Profession as well Herbalism (int) – Proficiency that allows the character to find and make poisons, salves and general mixtures that provide a varied number of negative effects. Also allows the character to bind wounds, slow poisons and find herbs used to restore health and treat all sorts of illness. Just by gaining one rank giving access to being able to find and use various healing herbs. All herbs can only be found between Spring and Fall, no herbs can be found in the winter. Synergys 5 ranks in herbalism +2 to Heal, +2 craft Poisonmaking. 5 ranks knowledge nature give +2 to herbalism rolls Note that the Heal skill is required for wound treatment and stabization rolls and long term care, while craft poisonmaking is making poisons using animal venom such from spiders and scorpions. DC 12 Very minor injury or ability injury herbs. DC 15 Minor injury or ability injury herbs DC 20 Moderate injury or ability injury herbs, some effect herbs. DC 24 Major injury or ability injury herbs, assorted effect herbs. DC 27 Powerful injury or ability injury herbs, assorted major effect herbs. DC 30 Rare and exotic herbs, herbs than can kill or permanently incapacitate. some examples at each level: Level 1 (DC 12): Nerupia Sap: Heals 1 strength damage Conulod Berries: Causes 1 point of temporary dexterity damage (save DC12) Level 2: (DC 15): Chalunga root: Heals 1d6 hp Beruggia Berries: Causes subject to fall asleep for 1d3 hours. (Save DC 15) Level 3 (DC 20): Tempest Berries: Temp boost to strength, +1 for 1 hour Root of Gorthar: Causes massive vomiting, -1 to strength and incapacitation for 1d4 rounds. (Save DC 17) Level 4 (DC 24) Worgar Root: Temp boost in reflexes, +3 reflex save for 1 hour Viral asti seed extract: 1d8 points of damage, can coat a weapon for 3 strikes (Save DC 19) Level 5 (DC 27) Caspore berries: Heals 5d8 hp damage Braviar sap: 1d6 points of temporary strength damage (Save DC 21) Level 6 (DC 30) Stalk of the Dodematee: Imparts a Magic Resistance of 15 for 1 hour. Plague olives: Disease which infects anyone who subject is in physical contact with, all affected suffer a permanent loss of 1d4 charisma points (Save DC 23) There are bonuses and penalties depending on terrain and climate (ie season/weather) many of the ill effects work like poisons and some have secondary effects all will have a monetary market value as well.
DanjaNinja 02-24-06, 08:08 PM	Just a note on healing potions/salves--for me, instantaneous healing belongs solely in the realm of magic. If I were to allow a character to make mundane medical items, I would probably stick with things that give bonuses to saves or increase the rate or amount of natural healing.
Hariman 02-24-06, 09:39 PM	Any Alchemical Healing should either convert Lethal Damage to Nonlethal or have a delay of several minutes so that it can't be used in battle. The Iron Kingdoms books have Alchemical Healing items in them. Most have side effects like a fort save or 1d3 dex damage.
Kage_Ryu 02-24-06, 09:56 PM	Herbalism has an extreme advantage over Potions in the fact that Herbs can be made anywhere potions can (Assuming that because there's the components there would be components for Herbs) and they can be made in the wild. Perhaps you use magical ingrediants in the herbs, or that the herbs are magically enhanced somehow. In order to increase the potency. As herbalism increases it could take less time to make herbal treatments, I mean potions take a little time, an herbal tea can be made in a minute. Herbs can cure diseases/poisons like healing. Herbs are non-magical so magic disliking characters would be at ease around them. Herbalism might lead to a bit of cooking ability. Herbalism is a Profession after all! It can make money! Like the guy's before have said. And don't forget! The best reward you can give to someone dedicated to a skill - Is by allowing them to use it. Who cares if it doesn't beat other skills in use, if it's used then it was worth it. I mean, when I hear about people playing other people's campaign's I sometimes hear, "Oh none of my scout's abilities were useful, I don't think I'm going to like this campaign". Even though some skill is useless, to be able to use it make's a player happy. Soo just do things like others and myself have said. You could always make herbalism interesting... Since herbalism is nature oriented it might help him get along with druids (+2 to diplomacy synergy), survivalism (+2 synergy), Heal (+2 synergy). An interesting bonus could be: If you make a heal check with herbs you have prepared, every 5 points after the DC to make the herbs allows an extra +1 to the heal check.
edwardsobel 02-24-06, 10:28 PM	Just a note on healing potions/salves--for me, instantaneous healing belongs solely in the realm of magic. If I were to allow a character to make mundane medical items, I would probably stick with things that give bonuses to saves or increase the rate or amount of natural healing. actually with mine (although I failed to list everything as that would make for a rather long post) do have an onset time thus applying the healing salve that heals 5d8 damage must be applied and could take anywhere from 1d4 rounds to minutes or even hours to actually take effect. so the instant healing is still magic.
Tashanen 02-25-06, 03:21 AM	Let him put his skills anywhere he wants. Though if he wants superior benifits from the herbalism skill have him buy you a PDF copy of the Alchemy & Herbalists from Bastion Press. Alchemy & Herbalists (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=5914&)
Reis 02-25-06, 03:30 AM	many of the poisons in the DMG require herbs as ingredients...black lotus extract... another option is to allow rare herbs gathered by the PC to act as an experience substitute when using the Brew Potion feat
rkr1970 02-25-06, 11:47 AM	First, if he wants plenty of role-playing opportunities, he should provide some options himself. You might suggest that he pick up Bastion Press' Alchemy & Herbalism (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=5914&). For $10, he'll have a ton of new uses for this skill. In addition, I'm sure you could find unusual ways to use this ability in your game. something along these lines strikes me as fun... DM: The swamp seems to get calmer as the party walks through it. Bird song is hushing, giving way to the sound of the breeze. The insects aren't biting as much as they were a few moments ago. It's like an almost perfect moment. Monk, give me a spot check. Monk: Um.. ok. <<rolls nervously>> 18! DM: Cool. You spot a very rare and highly prized plant in the underbrush at the water's edge. It's called Black Fang Leaf. Normally collected for its ability to neutralize acids, it can also be used to treat chemical burns quite effectively. Monk: Wow! That's neat. I harvest them. How much can I collect? DM: You are able to get a quarter pound of the bright green oval leaves. Monk: Bright green oval leaves? I thought you called it black fang leaf? DM: I did. It's called that because it only grows in the fresh dung of a mature black dragon, not because of how it looks. Monk: Oh! OK. Oh... Crap! Um... Guys...? DM: Just as the party turns to listen to what you have to say, you get a feeling of absolute dread running through you, but whether from the now widened eyes of your companions, or from the ominous rushing of water behind you, its hard to say. The rest of you, just as you're turning to hear what the monk has to say, see a large, black, horned head rise slowly from the waters of the swamp behind him. Let him take the herbalism. It doesn't hurt your campaign, and there are so many fun things you can do with it.