Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JKnight 02-03-05, 01:22 PM	Players tend to start their characters young. I noticed this when I was in the eighth grade roleplaying at the local hobby store. Throughout life, this has not changed. In college, players still started their characters at the sixteen to twenty year bracket. Some odd cases came up, but mostly that's what my gaming group has done. Even now. Starting a wizard at sixteen years old, running through several games, building up the levels, does anyone find it odd at how early in life a character can rise to epic proportions? Typically we do a lot of roleplaying with combat intermixed, so the level progression versus in game time is slight to start with. But the idea that a character can hit 20th level in five years is not unbelievable... and that's five years in game. If the PCs stay active we're talking about some very young heros. That doesn't feel right to me. I believe that time in game should reflect a portion of a character's power. I believe that age should be necessary for the higher levels. If not, then why are all my strong NPCs so darn old? Without getting into elves, and why they achieve so little in such long lives, level wise, what do you guys do to offset this, if anything? The best I have heard is intense training rules. Something like one month per level progression. A lot of PCs hate this because they don't level up inside the dungeon, but gee whiz, a 21 year old archmage??? JK
murte 02-03-05, 01:32 PM	Well as a general rule, for any month that any time is spent adventuring, at least one month should be spent not adventuring. I've never liked the whole "save the world in 90 days" quest type campaigns. They do not give the characters time to develop. One of the things that went away which was great at "getting the characters int the world" was the good old Fighter gets keep and men at 9th level from 1st ed. There are a couple of way to slow it down with just using the RAW, first, no magic weapons are available for sale off the shelf, all are made to order. Second, enforce the Wizrds must research spells rules. Third, allow the characters to relax a bit every few levels. TSee what is like when they have a more mystery/puzzle adventure where combat happens infrequently in terms of game time, but frequently enough in session time to keep them happy. Lastly, have them fight ghosts, quick way to age them 10 years or more. ;)
Janusunaj 02-03-05, 01:33 PM	The youngest a wizard can be is 17 years old. He cannot be 16. In my group I have a 20 year old archmage named Jarid Limegold. I think it's common sense to make your characters that young. Ecspecialy with low ability scores. After all, +3 mental ability scores and -6 physical ability scores? Your 24 constitution will have become a mere 18. A wizard's mighty 14 constitution, in which he absolutely needs to survive, will have become a negligible 8. With that con score for a wizard, the group probably won't have that wizard for long. As for barbarians, what good will an 18 strength, dex, con do when he is at very high level?
hiryuu 02-03-05, 01:37 PM	Bah, you can be 16 if you wanna. Who says you can be 17 at the youngest? Besides, these are PCs. The heroes. The guys who are capable of things noraml people in the world only dream of.
Cantankerous 02-03-05, 02:14 PM	Sure, sure, start 'em out at eight weeks pre-birth and have them as Archmages before they can talk. These are heroes after all. This is the primary reason I dislike the entire combat tied experience system for Magic Using characters. For them it makes no sense whatever, not even the poor sense that it makes for Fighter characters... the problem is that there is nothing it can be well replaced with and still keep the game as relatively free formed and balanced as it is. It's a bad protrayal, but good DMing can make up for it. The average (sure 17 is possible for a newly Apprenticed Wizard, but the chances are 1 in 36 of starting at 17) starting age for our Wizard is going to be 22, as a fairly raw Apprentice. Then, with anything that vaguely resembles reasonable game pacing he'll probably gnab a level or two on the first adventure or linked set in a campaign. But then, why do we need to have the next adventure follow on the heels of the first set? What the heck ever happened to down time? Does the entire world revolve around the PC's? Or does the DM maybe allow a few months or years to pass in between adventures. Our avergae Wizard might still be 22 when he hits level four, but then there could be six to eight years of "life", no? He's still level four, maybe level five or six even if a few smaller things have cropped up that needed his personal touch and attention, maybe as part of the same group, maybe individually. Now he's late twenties at fifth say, and becoming a recognized figure. The next set of linked adventures comes along and he gnabs three more levels. Let's say he's now just 29 and he's coming up on seventh level. A few years later, at 31, again he's pulled away from his learning the secrets of magic and the universe, his real love and job, and thrust into the fray. A short series of adventures later he's 9th level, still just a young man of 31, with formidable powers. A decade and a bit passes. Our hero Wizard has been being a Wizard. He's been working on spell research, on improving his understanding of magic, doing the things that need to be done to explain his spent skill points from killing the Troll Lord of Garnoth with a fireball giving him access to Knowledge-Planar*11. It's been a busy time for him as an independant adventurer too. Five or six things came up and he's popped four levels during that time. He's massively powerful now. Thirteenth level and just mid fourties. He's just getting his first grey hairs and his collegues are envious as Hell. The few who ever adavanced as far as he did that is. But eeeyow; he's soooo young! He's a decade and half younger than the youngest of them before they began to have his command of the art. A small but intensive adventure that is part of the central theme of the campaign later he's fifteenth level and thinking Archmage thoughts. At just 44 years old he's done that which no one else in the Guild has managed before their mid sixties in more than three centuries... he's confirmed as an ArchMage. He's still solidly middle aged, his physical body isn't what it once was... but he's a Wizard... he's never cared much about that anyway. On the other hand he's older and wiser. His understanding of people is better. Does this not seem more sensible than the 21 year old Archmage? Doesn't it seem reasonable and doesn't the character seem more empathic? Isshia
Board_Rider 02-03-05, 02:15 PM	I personally do not do anything about it. Just don't see the point. But I see where you're coming from and even agree. But my old(as in prior campaigns, not age) high level PC's rarely have anything to do with the new campaign world. That is to say when we, as a group, play a new campaign then the old PC's are not even existent. So no skewering.
clarkvalentine 02-03-05, 02:24 PM	With that con score for a wizard, the group probably won't have that wizard for long. A bit off topic, but I'm playing a wizard PC with an 8 con, I've played him from 1st level. I just submitted my sheet for 13th level to my GM. It's tricky, but it can be done.
JKnight 02-03-05, 02:27 PM	Cantankerous, Isshia? Love your take on this issue. Reminds me more of the story impact that I should a DND game should revolve around. Problem is, most players want to jump into the middle of everything a young age, and they don't want to stop adventuring. This could be construed as meta gaming, and it most probably is. But what is one to do with players that want to stay active? Personally, I agree with your assessment of character growth. JK
clarkvalentine 02-03-05, 02:35 PM	Take a look at the game Pendragon. It has a great system for this. Basically, you get one adventure per year. That's it. An adventure might last three or four game sessions, but when it's done, everyone goes home for the winter. During the winter, you spend time training, managing your estate, etc. Basically, the equivalent of "levelling up". You could consider doing something like that. Dispense with XP, design your adventures to last 3 to 5 game sessions long, then everyone goes home and "levels up" over the winter. They meet up again in the spring to take on their next challenge. It also leaves room for side quests and such things that occur during the extended "downtime".
Alynn 02-03-05, 02:40 PM	Well in the olden golden days of knights and what not, the 20's was ones middle age, as the average life expectancy wasn't much over 40. There was no real school system, as soon as you were old enough you took on an apretiship, and later, you took over the business. It wasn't uncommon to be that young and be an expert (by the age of 20 you have already been doing ti for like 10 years. But possibly, maybe everything they players need to do is convieniently close. My second adventure will take the players 2 weeks to get there by a wagon over an established road, thats if they don't stop at any of the villages (and I'm sure I'll find a way to make them stop)... There is always downtime, usually between adventures, study, training, getting some, entertainment, that sort of thing, I've had months pass between adventures, last week it was summer, this week its late fall, and just turning to winter. These things that speed up time will help age your chars if you are so concerned about young and powerful.
Vol 02-03-05, 02:46 PM	In a world where the heroes perform amazing feat like surviving a 100 ft. fall, or cast in a fraction of second a Fireball, it is not so unlikely to gain 20 levels in 5 years, given a modicum of ability and intelligence. But if the DM thinks it's illogic, feel free to include years of training sessions to reach the upper levels. Of course, if you want a "realistic" campaign it is better than you consider many other aspects of the game that can seem odd, like the meaning of high skill check results and much more. Your players can raise more than an eyebrow if you say that a decade of training is necessary to become a Wiz15 but the party Rogue make a Search/Disable Device combo check and neutralize a completely hidden DC 25 trap in 3 rounds.
clarkvalentine 02-03-05, 02:51 PM	Well in the olden golden days of knights and what not, the 20's was ones middle age, as the average life expectancy wasn't much over 40. Although that didn't mean that most people died at 40. If you survived childhood, you stood a good chance of living to see 50, or more. The life expectency is skewed low by a high childhood mortality rate. By the time the PCs begin adventuring, they've made it through the "dangerous" time.
Kast 02-03-05, 02:55 PM	I like the idea that fast (campaign time-wise) advancement is possible. I think that the PCs (some NPCs too to some extent) are special individuals. The talent is already there and it just needs a little coaxing to get it to manifest. The rub, of course, is that to get that power, you have to challenge the world and take serious risks. Many challengers don't survive.
Vincent Grayson 02-03-05, 03:38 PM	Cantankerous, your idea gives a great sense of story, and I'm sure plenty of wizards would love to play out their lives like that...but that doesn't work in a party setting. Sure, maybe if some of the characters get killed, or leave, or you have players willing to change characters often, you could do that...but it'd be hard, since it'd focus so strongly on one character. While this wizard is happy to sit around for a decade at a time, I imagine the party rogue isn't going to be counting coins for ten years as his strength wanes and his reflexes dull. Again, I like your idea, but I don't see how it'd work in a normal, party-based game, unless every character is a non physical-stat focuses characer (or, is perhaps elven or some other longer-lived race)
Cantankerous 02-05-05, 02:26 AM	Cantankerous, Isshia? Love your take on this issue. Reminds me more of the story impact that I should a DND game should revolve around. Problem is, most players want to jump into the middle of everything a young age, and they don't want to stop adventuring. This could be construed as meta gaming, and it most probably is. But what is one to do with players that want to stay active? Personally, I agree with your assessment of character growth. JK Sorry, I got busy and then wanted one last decent snow hike... Anway, the DM is the pace setter. It's kind of impossible for the PC's to go from one major action to another without the DM's convivience. Adventures that a small group of PC's can take part in don't happen every day. The set up has to be "just right" for them. The group of fifth level characters that were great at stopping the disappearances in village A that a wolfwere and his pack of dire wolves were responsible for isn't going to be capable of stopping the three thousand strong Orc horde led by the Pit Fiend Baragal. Nor would their involvement be anything but overkill when facing the small clan of kobolds that moved into the woods of that quiet little town they used to base themselves out of. They, or one or two of them, might show up to scotch the problem, but even there they won't get much out of it. As the DM you simply inform the players that there is going to be an extended down time. Say three years and four months. What are they doing in that time? This is where such skills as Profession come in. Or they can seek service with a powerful nobleman and become part of the political set up in the area, or both and still have the time they need to research that new spell they wanted to research, or to train that dire wolf cub they took or whatever. Good players LOVE downtime as it gives them a greater degree of control over their characters. Also there is the possibility of romantic subplots, having a family life, raising children, all the thousands of little details that tie them more into the campaign and the campaign world; the things that make them feel as though thier characters areally a part of it, not just artificial constructs moving through. That more than any other reason is why I dispise PC RPG's. There is never any feeling, even the far more vague and non-interactive feeling, of being part of the actual story. Morrowind, perhaps the best PC RPG I've seen yet, even with the 100+ realism mods I've added to it, still has an assinine artificial feel to it, because unless you purposely just hang about for weeks on end doing nothing but fighting off the continual encounters everytime you sleep, you can are usually done with it, Bloodmoon and Tribunal and the upteen other side quests from the mods in four months or less. Call it an average of about 100 days or so for all three combined with side quests and having to sleep eight hours per night, et al. I've finished the bloody main quest with a thirteenth level character in 59 days who was also Master of Fighters Guild, the Archmage of the Mages Guild and the Grandmaster of House Telvanni by that time. It's a juggling act and you have to not install any mods that require sleep, but it's easily possible. Talk about idiocy! But that's the way the game is layed out. Isshia
Vharuck 02-05-05, 11:14 AM	I absolutely demand down time with every character I make because only two people adventure: People who want what is found adventuring and people who are so lucky there weren't asylums back then. I try not to design characters with traits of the latter, but instead the first. I design characters with a long-term life goal in mind, such as buying a boat and setting up a trade company and doing some cool exploration for minerals and such on the side, or (my newest one) collecting artifacts (read ancient pots, jewelry, and random stuff) and setting up a museum. I must have down time to build/buy/set up whatever my character wants!
11d7 02-05-05, 12:07 PM	If the party I'm DMing has a Wizard or Wu Jen (dispite them using Divine magic in my campaign world) they are defnetly stuck with long down time becuase a rule I have: These classes must research spells they dont get any at new levels. Sure the Wizard or Wu Jen could just get scrolls or copy from other spell books but they will not likly get very rare spells doing that, or spesific spells they want, and definetly not create origonal ones. Because the time and stuff involved in the prossess of researching spells most wizards/Wu Jen join guilds and share spells but when new spells are wanted they need to be found or researched and not everyone is willing to share spells that give them large power bonuses vs. any other Wizard/Wu Jen. Example a lv. 3 spell that does 1d6 per level damage to everything in 20ft of the center is very powerful and very rare. Few wizards have Fireball and next to none will ever give up its secret willingly. I have rules for all parts of spell reasurch but to shorten it I'll only list the time involved (assuming they pass all checks and have average working enviroment and no major distrations...which is unlikly given time needed). The Times: It takes 1 month per spell level to research a spell with a level of 4 or under, 2 months per level for a spells level 5-7 and 4 months per level for spells level 8 and up. For this purpose level 0 spell take 2 weeks. The magic user must work on the spell for 8 hours a day 6 days per week to make enough progress to make a check. The DC for the check is 20 + spell level for spells level 4 and under, this check is DC 30 + spell level for spells 5-7 and DC 40 + spell level for level 8 and up spells. A spell caster can choose to take 10 but cannot take 20. The check being refered to is a Knowledge (type of magic the caster uses) check. The DC are pritty high but there are lots of ways to get large bonuses like various facilities they have access to and assistence and additional researchers and even some cutting ethical corners to speed up research so it really is a group effort for the guilds. And all memeber are required to help research spells at one point or another, usualy not until they have achived quite a reputation though are they called for to help. So say a level 7 Wizard wants to research a level 5 spell (so they can use it once they reach level 9) it will take them assuming averge condtions being: Standard Magical Research Lab – No Modifiers 4-8 Assistants – Plus 5 2 Additional Researchers – Additional Checks (only one needs to pass) Spell has no/common Material component - No major cost or time for finding all the material needed increase It will take 10 months and 40 DC 35 Knowledge (Wizardry) checks. If a check fails it does not ruin research, a succsesful check = one week of progress, a natural 20 = 1d3 weeks of progress due to break through. And of course XP is gained for reseaching spells, its a CR spell level encounter per month of research (divinded bwtween researchers) so the level 7 wizard would gain 3500 XP (10500/3). During this time (has already happend one in a 5 session camapign the other party memebers did things like make professon checks to earn more money, pursure personal intrests exept the party fighter who entered a turny in the next town over and gained XP that way, he leveled up so now hes level 3 and the rest are level 2. This was only a 1 month period however, at higher levels the PCs will expect alot loner down time.
Jarlaxle_The_Rogue 02-05-05, 01:13 PM	This game is about having fun- not realism. I personally find it hard to create complicated plots that take years to unfold. I find only very specific circumstances will allow for that. Generally a complex plotline in one of my games will unfold over the course of a couple months to a year of game time, with very little down time. Its like a video game where the characters get pulled into something way bigger then they can handle and are forced to deal with it. How realistic is 5th level character anyway? I mean the average person has like 2 hp, the average HP for a 5th level character with a constitution of 10 is 12-13.
Kast 02-05-05, 03:43 PM	... Good players LOVE downtime as it gives them a greater degree of control over their characters. Also there is the possibility of romantic subplots, having a family life, raising children, all the thousands of little details that tie them more into the campaign and the campaign world; the things that make them feel as though thier characters areally a part of it, not just artificial constructs moving through. ... Isshia How do you accommodate a PC who doesn't want downtime, who wants to always be adventuring non-stop, who wants to make a name for themselves, a self-starter?
Art_Tillary 02-05-05, 05:30 PM	How do you accommodate a PC who doesn't want downtime, who wants to always be adventuring non-stop, who wants to make a name for themselves, a self-starter? I was going to post this as general reply, but this was a better opening. Give the party more adventures, but ones that don't earn as much XP. Instead of fighting tougher monsters, let them fight the same ones. As they go up in level, they get less XP per that type encounter per the rules. It makes for a bit more loot heavy campaign, but you could reduce the loot they keep in various ways. I don't see that they would start on more difficult quests as fast as most seem to. AT
11d7 02-05-05, 05:54 PM	How do you accommodate a PC who doesn't want downtime, who wants to always be adventuring non-stop, who wants to make a name for themselves, a self-starter? If a PC doesnt want downtime I let them adventure by themselves or with the other party members who dont want it However its not going to be at the weekly meeting, it will be at some point inbetween even if that time is 'passes over' during the session. Example: Its sunday and the party wants to take down time after an adventure well the Wizard, Martial Artist (variant Monk) and Druid do. The fighter however doesnt want to. He tells me this and we set up a time between this weeks game and next weeks game for him to do his personal adventure if it cant be done while the rest of the people are there. Last time this happend it could happen while the others where there because he entered a fighting tornament so on the days between the battles he fought I delt with the actions of the other PCs. The Wizard was researching a new spell (Phamtasmal Assalents and with that research XP he reached level 3). The Martial Artist and Druid made professon checks to earn money as well as take care of a few personal errands. The Fighter entered and took 5th place out of 30 in a tornement and won some prizes (500 SP and a golden statuet) and enouph XP to reach level 3. There that worked didnt it. It happend over the course of a month. Down time works.
Draco Strang 02-05-05, 05:56 PM	Is it just me, or does this whole 21 year old archmage remind you guys of Dougie Howser? I can imagine it now, at the end of every adventure, he writes in his little leather-bound journal what transpired, and the lessons he learned. "Dear Journal, Even though we banished Orcus to the bottom layer of the Abyss, I learned that arch-fiends have feelings to. Oh, and succubi are way hot."
evangelion1010 02-05-05, 07:12 PM	Depending on what you want to look at, and how magic manifests itself in your world, its not that unreasonable to be a wizard at 16. If magic is somewhat common, it may not be unreasonable to start magical training at 13 (a la Harry Potter). The magic system doesn't easily translate, but i'd say by book 3 Harry is easily a 2-4 th level wizard... I suppose i have a hard time with young clerics/druids most, as wisdom is something that comes with age... intelligence too, to a degree, but you can be born unnaturally smart. (the kid who played a piano nearly perfectly from just observing someone play... at age 4?) It shouldn't be common, but they are heros, and i'd have them include something in their background about being unnaturally gifted, which simply translates into a high casting score and a reason why they can achieve at 16 what most achieve at 23.
clarkvalentine 02-05-05, 11:09 PM	How do you accommodate a PC who doesn't want downtime, who wants to always be adventuring non-stop, who wants to make a name for themselves, a self-starter? I think this depends on the tone of the campaign. Some campaigns will be able to support that sort of endless adventuring, others are better suited to a slower pace. If the GM sets out to run a campaign spanning decades where the PCs become involved in their societies or raise families and estates and heirs or get into politics etc., I don't think this sort of PC can be accommodated.
burning_blood 02-06-05, 01:08 AM	Is it just me, or does this whole 21 year old archmage remind you guys of Dougie Howser? I can imagine it now, at the end of every adventure, he writes in his little leather-bound journal what transpired, and the lessons he learned. "Dear Journal, Even though we banished Orcus to the bottom layer of the Abyss, I learned that arch-fiends have feelings to. Oh, and succubi are way hot."LOL. One of the campaigns I'm in right now has almost no down-time at all. My first character started his adventuring career at age 17 (randomly rolled), and by the time the party suffered a TPK six in-game months later (just past his 18th birthday) he was already 13th-level. Not to mention the odd level-draining encounter along the way, and a resurrection or two. Our DM wasn't giving us extra XP or anything, we were just going that hard all the time. Sometimes it felt like the party was reeling from one disaster to the next; before we'd even mopped up the current situation, the next one was already cropping up. We yearned for a week off to copy spells, make items, or just relax. Of course this results in apparent absurdities, like (as someone else said in another thread some while ago) Jimmy the Farmhand going off adventuring, then returning a year later riding an Ancient Gold Wyrm as his steed and weilding the Legendary Sword of Godly Might. But it's certainly never boring. And of course, in my case that didn't happen anyway; a TPK happened. Non-stop adventuring for several straight months takes its toll on an adventurer's state of mind. How does the old saying go? Something about the brightest flame burns out quickest? Like Achilles.
dknight100 02-06-05, 07:05 AM	I recall reading higher up that the experience system in dnd is combat tied. This is true, experience is tied into combat, however, it also reccomends that non combat actions that overcome valid challenges should be rewarded experience too. Its simply that combat is the common ground shared by all classes, and so gets the most coverage in the rules. If Dnd was all about talking to people and investigating crimes, but not fighting, then i imagine experience would be fairly tied to Gather Information and various Knowledge checks. In my campaign i allow characters to level in quest, however, i also include downtime. i do this by dividing up the story archs, so that after one arch is complete, the next doesn't start immediately. most likely, it'll be a few years before something really notable happens. During this time i allow the PCs to describe what they get up to, and i also dish out some experience to them to represent that they are still keeping up with their various practices while they are not actively 'adventuring' using downtime that occurs over the years is great in a campaign that revolves around a couple of in depth locations, as the players get a chance to feel that they are in an active world, where things occur without PC interferance.
Cantankerous 02-06-05, 10:46 AM	How do you accommodate a PC who doesn't want downtime, who wants to always be adventuring non-stop, who wants to make a name for themselves, a self-starter? Let them join a military, then wait for a war/police action/whatever. They'll soon learn that the right event doesn't come along when ever they want it to. It comes along by happenstance, once in a while, not at their beck and call. The little things, driving the 2nd level evil Cleric out of the surrounding woods so that he doesn't succeed in his plan to forge an alliance between the humanoids there so that they'll destroy Village A is just not much of a challenge for the 5th level Fighter. He'll have to have the right set up. Also if he has the sense of a rutabega he'll take a pass on trying to go after the ancient, red Wyrm Adarasal. If not let the guy learn. The world does not revolve around the PC's. They may be vital players at some point, if they survive long enough, if they've earned the position, but not from the getgo. That's PC RPG idiocy that has no place in a well run TT RPG. Realism, as someone said earlier, is NEVER the point. BUT... reasonability definately IS! No well written story with more than a single main character that I can think of has them as saving the world as Herren Wunderkind. In a reasonable storyline it just doesn't happen. Isshia
Cantankerous 02-06-05, 10:48 AM	How does the old saying go? Something about the brightest flame burns out quickest? Like Achilles. According to most legends Achilles was in his late 30's when he died. Isshia
Art_Tillary 02-06-05, 12:09 PM	I think this depends on the tone of the campaign. Some campaigns will be able to support that sort of endless adventuring, others are better suited to a slower pace. If the GM sets out to run a campaign spanning decades where the PCs become involved in their societies or raise families and estates and heirs or get into politics etc., I don't think this sort of PC can be accommodated. I don't think that choice is up to the DM though without railroading. Or showing that the game world isn't thought out. Why should I be forced to raise a family? AT
Art_Tillary 02-06-05, 12:20 PM	Let them join a military, then wait for a war/police action/whatever. They'll soon learn that the right event doesn't come along when ever they want it to. It comes along by happenstance, once in a while, not at their beck and call. The little things, driving the 2nd level evil Cleric out of the surrounding woods so that he doesn't succeed in his plan to forge an alliance between the humanoids there so that they'll destroy Village A is just not much of a challenge for the 5th level Fighter. He'll have to have the right set up. Also if he has the sense of a rutabega he'll take a pass on trying to go after the ancient, red Wyrm Adarasal. If not let the guy learn. The world does not revolve around the PC's. They may be vital players at some point, if they survive long enough, if they've earned the position, but not from the getgo. That's PC RPG idiocy that has no place in a well run TT RPG. Realism, as someone said earlier, is NEVER the point. BUT... reasonability definately IS! No well written story with more than a single main character that I can think of has them as saving the world as Herren Wunderkind. In a reasonable storyline it just doesn't happen. Isshia Forcing them to be in the military sounds like railroading of a kind. If that is the only viable way to have adventures, I hope the world overall is fairly peaceful. Modern example: The only way to get involved in fighting is to be in the military of a country. All conflicts have to be only between armies, or armies and a population the party cant be considered part of. Then yes, you have to wait for a war to advance your career. Not only that, but you have to play the political game (maybe off camera) to be posted to units that see action. Again, think of modern US military between 1975 and 2001. All to easy to have been in combat units that never saw combat while station there. I don't see why the 5th level party would NOT stop the second level evil cleric. True, they won't get much XP (if any) but should get some loot. That is one of the ways I'd reasonably keep time between levels down. I also like level up time and money requirements, but that's not really relevent here. You make a valid point about the dragon. AT
Cantankerous 02-06-05, 04:12 PM	Forcing them to be in the military sounds like railroading of a kind. If that is the only viable way to have adventures, I hope the world overall is fairly peaceful. Modern example: The only way to get involved in fighting is to be in the military of a country. All conflicts have to be only between armies, or armies and a population the party cant be considered part of. Then yes, you have to wait for a war to advance your career. Not only that, but you have to play the political game (maybe off camera) to be posted to units that see action. Again, think of modern US military between 1975 and 2001. All to easy to have been in combat units that never saw combat while station there. I don't see why the 5th level party would NOT stop the second level evil cleric. True, they won't get much XP (if any) but should get some loot. That is one of the ways I'd reasonably keep time between levels down. I also like level up time and money requirements, but that's not really relevent here. You make a valid point about the dragon. AT I think you missed something. No said anything about forcing anything. I had said, "let them join" NOT "make them join"; which would be two entirely different approaches. The point is that there isn't always a handy situation laying around for the person to take advantage of. So sure, let them do fourty kill the first level schmuck adventurers. That aught to thrill and titilate a fifth level party. THAT is part of the point too. You have to provide challenges; as that's the DM's job. Doing so while maintaining an air of reasonability is a DM's art form. Isshia