Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Amon_WinterfallIV 05-23-06, 07:36 PM	My player characters have decided to evacuate a large number of people (3,000) from a civilized area. As this is because these people are getting slaughtered by undead, I don't expect getting them to leave is a major issue. The problem is logistics: How does one get 22 tons of foodstuffs (which is just 15 days worth of food for this many people) in a very short time frame (like on the scale of days.) Because the town (and the surrounding countryside) is in a state of civil war, this isn't exactly lying around. Normally these people have to scrounge for the foodstuffs anyhow, but if they are moved inside of an derelict palace that's also not possible. Purchasing food from elsewhere is possible, but delivery would be very difficult (and actually, magic doesn't seem to help very much) in this time frame, as well as very dangerous. How much would this cost, assuming that the commoners will eat anything (Potatoes, Fish, Bread, etc) Is there a magic answer to this? Can Limited Wish create 1,800G worth of foodstuffs? This clearly is very challenging (and the the Undead attacking the commoners are clearly going to attack the PCs as they try to evacuate them) Is this beyond the ken of a 5th level party? Note: The PCs don't really seem to understand how difficult this is (I was TRYING to get them killed the undead behind this, so this is kind of a plot hook that went the wrong way). Oh well, they've got an adventure all right!
PenderGrass 05-23-06, 07:44 PM	If they aren't picky eaters.... Have them resort to cannibalism. 1 avg adult human should feed at least 6 people per day. Reduces the space needed to house them, also reduces the need to keep track of food other than knock down the # of survivors by 1/6th per day. Other than that, use the PHB for buying food and discount as you see fit for rotted or less-than-average fare. :dragon: ****
The_Normal_Anomaly 05-23-06, 07:49 PM	Limited wish should meet your needs.
stargate525 05-23-06, 08:09 PM	Limited wish should meet your needs. and if it cant get the food directly, a couple dozen heroes feasts or murlin's(sp) spoons should do the trick.
Always-Late 05-23-06, 11:24 PM	Wish can get you 50,000 person-day rations, or 25 tons of food. Limited Wish, I'd say would get maybe a fifth of that, so 5 tons of food. Wash, rinse, repeat. Or buy 22 tons of food from a faraway peaceful land. Position the food on the edge of a cliff. Gate from the bottom of the cliff to wherever you want it. Push the food off the cliff. A Gold Wyrm has a light load carrying capacity of just over 34 tons. You could probably hire one or two just to carry some stuff.
Necrosis 05-24-06, 12:38 AM	the town will have graniereis and horses, a horse will have quite a bit of edible meat on it-for the desperate there are also recipes where you eat the guts lungs etc remebmer you can put ANYTHING in soup, so does the town have 22 draft horses?-they must mass close to a ton each, for peasants boiled horse is going up in the world :) hmmhmm.
myeviltwin 05-24-06, 12:38 AM	It could just be unfeasible to move that many people. The real problem with running away from undead is that undead don't have to rest, so they'll probably catch up to the retreating peasants in a matter of days. Now if I were an intelligent undead and I wanted to make havoc, I wouldn't attack the PCs, because that's a quick way to get re-dead. I'd go after the commoners, probably in the dead of night, and kill as many as I could, and run away before anyone who could put up a fight showed up. After a few nights of this, at most, if will probably become clear that the people won't survive long enough to get where they're going, food or no food, and so the PCs will have to take the fight to the undead. Just my thoughts. You might be able to salvage most of your original adventure idea (depending) while letting the PCs try their evacuation.
Amon_WinterfallIV 05-24-06, 12:48 AM	I ground through the math, and found out simply buying bread alone would cost 1,800gp for this quantity. Also, buying this much bread at once would probably manipulate the economy of whereever this is done. This purchase is as 'bare bones' as I could possibly allow--eating simply bread for 15 days is going to cause malnutrition. Dragon Airlift sounds cool. Have no idea what that would cost though. It would be just a mundane errand for a Gold Wyrm, but such dragons are EPIC, and probably way too pricey for the party. Here's the kicker though--the party is 5th level. I was pretty sure that this logistical challenge would be rather serious (let's face it, this is pretty harsh!) More info on Spoon, please. As Hero's feast is small scale (and also 6th level), I don't think its viable.
Always-Late 05-24-06, 12:51 AM	Deleted.
Amon_WinterfallIV 05-24-06, 01:00 AM	It could just be unfeasible to move that many people. The real problem with running away from undead is that undead don't have to rest, so they'll probably catch up to the retreating peasants in a matter of days. Now if I were an intelligent undead and I wanted to make havoc, I wouldn't attack the PCs, because that's a quick way to get re-dead. I'd go after the commoners, probably in the dead of night, and kill as many as I could, and run away before anyone who could put up a fight showed up. After a few nights of this, at most, if will probably become clear that the people won't survive long enough to get where they're going, food or no food, and so the PCs will have to take the fight to the undead. Just my thoughts. You might be able to salvage most of your original adventure idea (depending) while letting the PCs try their evacuation. I personally think that this evacuation is possible, but also very difficult. An attack by the undead is inevitable, but this is not a 'free move' situation: Other forces are attacking the undead while this is happening, the Party simply wants to choke off the source of more undead, which is pretty clever and may well strategically defeat the undead. Also, this many people would almost certainly have continous guards. The undead are intelligent, but not very intelligent (shadows and wights here). I tend to free-form my campaign, and I personally believe that the Party made the harder choice, so good luck to them. :P
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 05-24-06, 01:04 AM	It's very simple actually. Cast Summon Monster, summon a Djinni. Have it use its abilities :D
BladeBoy 05-24-06, 01:14 AM	at level 5, they're not gonna be summoning any Dijnni.
Eldharis 05-24-06, 01:31 AM	well personally i would like some more information on the town. Do they have food stores? How does the average family get their food? I think that it is accurate to say that the town or city has food stores or graniers, which could be emtied and carried. Also i believe that the phb says that a poor meal costs 1 sp. So if the commoners are used to less than this i would say that it is possible. This is an emergency situation so the commoners are probally going to be willing to go without food for about a week or so.
kelvinaw273 05-24-06, 02:01 AM	Comendier what you can from farms and surrounding villages ravaged by the undead (after all the undead do not eat). Remember that in agrarian society the food will be stored in barns and graneries within the villages themselves, and a village has to grow enough to feed itself for a year and (hopefully) a surplus. If it is late autumn the stores should be burting, if it is early summer they will be empty, but there will still be a lot around. If all else fails find a hostile faction of the war and raid their supply trains.
Amon_WinterfallIV 05-24-06, 02:04 AM	The situation is that these people are being evacuated to a castle near the town. For their own security, the people have to have their food stores inside the castle, and they don't have anywhere near this much food. This is actually part of a larger city--which has been turned into a war zone. The people are actually slowly starving as is, as they don't have enough food to feed themselves now. If they lock themselves in this run-down castle, they will be entirely unable to get food. These people are lower-class, and essentially out of resources. They are able to get food only sporadically as is, and they will be unable to get food entirely if they lock themselves up. Which means that they need food--and water. The water I've got down--Create water creates Gallons of Water per casting, and that can sustain these people. Basically, every person needs a quart of water, and two dozen casters burning their level zero spells can create the thousand gallons of water of such needed per day. If these people are evacuated to the castle, they must have or get the food they need. Problem is, there's a war zone in the way! As for starving for a week--People aren't going to put up with starving like this, I doubt that's reasonable. Yes, this is wartime, but that's really extreme.
Always-Late 05-24-06, 02:17 AM	The situation is that these people are being evacuated to a castle near the town. For their own security, the people have to have their food stores inside the castle, and they don't have anywhere near this much food. This is actually part of a larger city--which has been turned into a war zone. The people are actually slowly starving as is, as they don't have enough food to feed themselves now. If they lock themselves in this run-down castle, they will be entirely unable to get food. These people are lower-class, and essentially out of resources. They are able to get food only sporadically as is, and they will be unable to get food entirely if they lock themselves up. Which means that they need food--and water. The water I've got down--Create water creates Gallons of Water per casting, and that can sustain these people. Basically, every person needs a quart of water, and two dozen casters burning their level zero spells can create the thousand gallons of water of such needed per day. If these people are evacuated to the castle, they must have or get the food they need. Problem is, there's a war zone in the way! As for starving for a week--People aren't going to put up with starving like this, I doubt that's reasonable. Yes, this is wartime, but that's really extreme.Scrounge up some portable holes and have them be shipped around by familiars, animal companions, or wildshaped druids. A portable hole (at the low, low price of 20,000) can hold approximately 300 cubic feet of food. Scrounge up the abosolute densest food you can find - it measures volume, not weight.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 05-24-06, 02:38 AM	at level 5, they're not gonna be summoning any Dijnni. Alright Alright, didn't see that one. :doh: But you do realize that the point is essentially moot right? It only takes one level 13 Wizard or Cleric to save the day. (surely there's one of those out there that are friendly to the PCs or would really like to become famous for saving entire villages of people).
Amon_WinterfallIV 05-24-06, 04:37 AM	Summon Djinn, Djinn casts Major creation--Creates 9 a cubic. foot potato, and its permanent. I like that line of reasoning, and it would create 550 lbs of food "vegatable matter" per casting. But this is a 1/day casting, so this is going to require 82 castings of this spell. That's going to be incredibly expensive (Paying a 13th level mage for 82 castings of summon monster 7) Part of the challenge of this is figuring out a way that is both feasible and affordable to the party. The problem is that I don't think a mage of 13th level can cast summon monster 7 6 times a day. If he was 15th level, he could use summon monster 8 to get more djinn to create permanent food, and the summon monster 7 to do the same. Please, lets not consider a charity case here. The party has managed to get themselves into a nasty pickle with the logistics they've got to do here. I'm wondering if there is a cheaper way to do this than just hiring that wiz 13 and having him cast limited wish.
Amon_WinterfallIV 05-24-06, 04:40 AM	Scrounge up some portable holes and have them be shipped around by familiars, animal companions, or wildshaped druids. A portable hole (at the low, low price of 20,000) can hold approximately 300 cubic feet of food. Scrounge up the abosolute densest food you can find - it measures volume, not weight. 20k GP is a lot of money; the party is probably worth about 25k-30k gp right now, and they could only raise this amount by taking a hefty loan or parting with gear that they desperately need to fight their enemies. I think the party might have about 5k in liquid assets; beyond that, they are going to be hurting.
Cifer 05-24-06, 05:07 AM	20k GP is a lot of money; the party is probably worth about 25k-30k gp right now, and they could only raise this amount by taking a hefty loan or parting with gear that they desperately need to fight their enemies. I think I know about 3000 persons who would not really object to spend about 7gp each. I know that's a lot for a commoner, but since the alternative would be starving or being eaten by undead I'm relatively certain they would pay... The real problem with running away from undead is that undead don't have to rest, so they'll probably catch up to the retreating peasants in a matter of days. Depending on the kind of undead, a couple of days may be all the PCs need. The word "castle" indicated to me a source of relative safety. Additionally, undead movement depends on several factors: How fast are they and are any of them light-sensitive (means no moving during daytime). Also, can the pcs sabotage any kind of infrastructure - a bridge running over a stream would be more or less irrelevant since the undead could simply walk through, but a bridge over a large chasm would slow the creatures down quite a while.
Androcus Divinicus 05-24-06, 05:15 AM	Murlynd's Spoon feeds four people a day. So, you'd need 750 to feed 3,000. There's a 3rd level Cleric spell Create Food and Water which creates enough food to feed 3 people for a day per level. That's 15 for a 5th level caster ... getting closer, but you'd still need 200 castings per day. You could possibly work your clerics around the clock ... A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. <snip> As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared. The rules say that clerics pick a certain time of day to pray for their spells ... which does imply that they'd only be preparing once a day ... but it doesn't state it expressly. So you could allow your clerics to pray for spells as soon as their 8 hour limit is up. It's a bit of a stretch of the rules, but you could rule that a benevolent deity allows it in these trying times. In so doing, you could double the spell output of any given cleric (since casting time takes 10 minutes ... and praying for spells can't be instantaneous) ... but that'd still require you to have 100 5th level clerics working round the clock to provide food for these people. Another option could be to use magic to augment whatever mundane means the party is using to get food. If you can supply a third or half the food through magic (which seems unlikely) then there's that much less to buy. A few other issues: If shadows are involved, why are the PCs taking the villagers to a castle? Shadows are incorporeal, and only need to pass through the walls of the keep and continue attacking commoners. How much infastructure do your PCs have access to? Because they're going to need it. Lots and lots of stowage capacity ... and lots and lots of contacts with merchants. Because honestly, at their current level, they're going to be doing this work (or at least the majority of it) by hand unless you deus ex machina a powerful NPC or magical item in ... which rather defeats the purpose. Regards, Justin
Amon_WinterfallIV 05-24-06, 05:38 AM	Part of the problem is timing--the party is planning to do this all in 24 hours. As for the security of the keep, part of the deal is that it is away from the warzone. Also, most of the monsters (Such as the wights, zombies, Lemures) would have problems engaging the commoners. It's pretty much only the shadows that can tail them, and fortunately for the PCs, Shadows are only int 6--not nearly smart enough for a grandoise attack and destroy mission. If the operation takes place in daytime (as it should), the shadows are probably too dumb to figure out where the commoners went. Another part of the Castle is the storage capacity, 22 tons of material takes up a good deal of space. The commoners getting taxed--interesting idea. I don't think though that a commoner has 7 gp in liquid assets. Yes, selling a commoner's house for money would get you well more than enough. Holding a massive sale would probably not work--it would attract the wrong attention in the middle of a war. I believe that most commoners might have 1-2sp as liquid assets, that's about it. If that were thrown at the cause, it might pay 450 GP towards the project, but that's too little to even buy the food they need--even if its stale bread. Taxing the commoner's sounds pretty smart. It would be difficult to collect this money from this many people, but it would be possible in this timeframe. And it would be needed. Remember though, 22 tons of food is not immediately available. There are merchants around would could get it, given time (maybe two weeks--they take a ship or magic gate) Also, how fast can this be executed? The PCs want to do this in a SINGLE DAY--and that would be nothing less than heroic.
Androcus Divinicus 05-24-06, 05:51 AM	Also, how fast can this be executed? The PCs want to do this in a SINGLE DAY--and that would be nothing less than heroic. I smell divine intervention.
Shaggy_Shaggs 05-24-06, 05:54 AM	If you've got a druid willing to crash-course train a lot of new ones, and a source of berries, Goodberry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/goodberry.htm) could be rather useful in this situation.
Thelandrach 05-24-06, 07:13 AM	Burn me for a heretic, but I think you're making up a problem the players don't have to answer. If it's a town full of people, it's also a town full of food. What would they be eating if they weren't being evacuated? Have them bring that. If it's not feasible for three thousand people to move that much stuff, it's certainly not possible for a small group of 5th-level PCs to do it.
Androcus Divinicus 05-24-06, 07:20 AM	This is actually part of a larger city--which has been turned into a war zone. The people are actually slowly starving as is, as they don't have enough food to feed themselves now. If they lock themselves in this run-down castle, they will be entirely unable to get food. These people are lower-class, and essentially out of resources. They are able to get food only sporadically as is, and they will be unable to get food entirely if they lock themselves up. Which means that they need food--and water. Burned, Thelandrach.
FriendoftheDork 05-24-06, 09:42 AM	Not to be a pessimist but... no way. Without divine intervention (DM ex machina) the PCs won't be able to do this. Nonmagical means take too long time, and the magic available to the party of 5th level is not powerful enough. The PCs can try their best, ration the food. The weakest part of the 3000 will starve first, but if even half their number makes it out alive the PCs have done something great.
Just another user 05-24-06, 09:44 AM	Part of the problem is timing--the party is planning to do this all in 24 hours. Oh, well, then is a lot more simpler. They can't do it. That people is going to starve.
Sulaco 05-24-06, 09:51 AM	How about 1 pig an a liberal use of Regeneration spells? Part of the problem is timing--the party is planning to do this all in 24 hours. They can't do it in 24 hrs.
Brehon 05-24-06, 10:10 AM	Forage. A simple DC 10 Survival check (which can be done untrained) gets you enough food for 1 person for 1 day. Plus every 2 points you beat the DC 10 by adds another person/day to the total. The peasants could do it themselves with a 55% success ratio (assuming they don't have a Wis modifier). So, on average, 1350 fail their checks (roll 9 or less) and the other 1650 have varying degrees of success (roll 10 or higher). 150 (1 out of every 20 peasants) roll 20's and can feed themselves and 5 other people (generating 900 person/days of food). 300 roll 18's and 19's and can feed themselves and 4 other people (generating 1500 person/days of food). 300 roll 17's and 16's and can feed themselves and 3 other people (generating 1200 person/days of food). 300 roll 15's and 14's and can feed themselves and 2 other people (generating 900 person/days of food). 300 roll 13's and 12's and can feed themselves and 1 other person (generating 600 person/days of food). And 300 roll 11's and 10's and can only feed themselves (generating 300 person/days of food). This means the peasants, on average, could generate 5400 person/days of food on a daily basis by themselves. This does not take into account any preexisting food stores or how availble food is to forage (although I would assume that any area capable of generating food for 3000 people on a regular basis has a decent, local food supply). This solution allows the players to avoid the logistical nightmare of involved in the evacuation by leaving the issue to the peasants and allows them to concentrate on more important things, namely preventing the undead from slaughtering the refugees they're protecting.
Always-Late 05-24-06, 10:50 AM	Part of the problem is timing--the party is planning to do this all in 24 hours. As for the security of the keep, part of the deal is that it is away from the warzone. Also, most of the monsters (Such as the wights, zombies, Lemures) would have problems engaging the commoners. It's pretty much only the shadows that can tail them, and fortunately for the PCs, Shadows are only int 6--not nearly smart enough for a grandoise attack and destroy mission. If the operation takes place in daytime (as it should), the shadows are probably too dumb to figure out where the commoners went. Another part of the Castle is the storage capacity, 22 tons of material takes up a good deal of space. The commoners getting taxed--interesting idea. I don't think though that a commoner has 7 gp in liquid assets. Yes, selling a commoner's house for money would get you well more than enough. Holding a massive sale would probably not work--it would attract the wrong attention in the middle of a war. I believe that most commoners might have 1-2sp as liquid assets, that's about it. If that were thrown at the cause, it might pay 450 GP towards the project, but that's too little to even buy the food they need--even if its stale bread. Taxing the commoner's sounds pretty smart. It would be difficult to collect this money from this many people, but it would be possible in this timeframe. And it would be needed. Remember though, 22 tons of food is not immediately available. There are merchants around would could get it, given time (maybe two weeks--they take a ship or magic gate) Also, how fast can this be executed? The PCs want to do this in a SINGLE DAY--and that would be nothing less than heroic.Surrender to the nearest sentient force. They'll hopefully provide.
Zombayz1 05-24-06, 10:54 AM	If it has not already been asked, what type of undead? Zombies and Skeletons would be controlled by spell casters, who probably have to rest. Ghouls and Ghasts are a bit of a problem, because they can spread, albeit slowly. And Wights are just ****ing nasty. They multiply like rabbits when attacking commoners. I missin' any low level undead?
Shaggy_Shaggs 05-24-06, 11:20 AM	Forage. A simple DC 10 Survival check (which can be done untrained) gets you enough food for 1 person for 1 day. Plus every 2 points you beat the DC 10 by adds another person/day to the total. This requires cutting your speed in half to pull off. Outrunning tireless undead at half speed.... good luck.
Androcus Divinicus 05-24-06, 11:22 AM	This requires cutting your speed in half to pull off. Outrunning tireless undead at half speed.... good luck. ... in the middle of an urban area, let's not forget.
Jarrad 05-24-06, 11:36 AM	Part of the problem is timing--the party is planning to do this all in 24 hours. So... the commoners they wish to evacuate can get to their destination in 24 hours? As for the security of the keep, part of the deal is that it is away from the warzone. But not THAT far away, presumably, if the party think they can get the population their in 24 hours...? I must admit, I don't have the situation clear in my head! Another part of the Castle is the storage capacity, 22 tons of material takes up a good deal of space. 22 tons is nothing. It really needn't take up all that much space. 3,000 people isn't all that many. It's a small concert venue's worth of people. How big is the castle? Even a relatively small castle can hold a couple of thousand people in cramped conditions with enough food stores for several months. The commoners getting taxed--interesting idea. I don't think though that a commoner has 7 gp in liquid assets. Yes, selling a commoner's house for money would get you well more than enough. No it wouldn't. Who'd buy it, in the middle of a war? Who'd want anything that commoners could sell, and why and how are they stockpiling 22 tons of food to offer in exchange? Houses get burned down in the middle of a war. The probability is very high that even if the common folk own the houses (which actually isn't in itself all that likely) they wouldn't own the land the houses stand on so any "investor" would have to be out of his or her gourd to consider the idea. Even if they raised the money, if there's that much food stockpiled somewhere then it would probably have been commandeered for the armed forces or raided by the populace. A handful of guards - game statistics be damned - would not stand there and slaughter hundreds of angry people (their OWN people) with pitchforks and torches who are out to feed their children. If someone was rich enough, well-resourced enough and ruthless enough to hold and defend that much food, they're not going to sell it for the usual price either. Holding a massive sale would probably not work--it would attract the wrong attention in the middle of a war. Or, more likely, none at all. I believe that most commoners might have 1-2sp as liquid assets, that's about it. If that were thrown at the cause, it might pay 450 GP towards the project, but that's too little to even buy the food they need--even if its stale bread. Again, where would they get it, anyway? All the PHB prices assume some sort of normal infrastructure is in operation. A city torn apart by war runs by different rules - in modern times as much as mediaeval - and things cost whatever the market will bear. Taxing the commoner's sounds pretty smart. It would be difficult to collect this money from this many people, but it would be possible in this timeframe. And it would be needed. It's a waste of time, unless you have a source of food a long way outside the city. And if it's sufficiently far from the city for the war to have no influence on the price of goods, it's too far to get the food there quickly. Remember though, 22 tons of food is not immediately available. There are merchants around would could get it, given time (maybe two weeks--they take a ship or magic gate) Ah, right, didn't read this bit properly to start with :blush: Could you be a bit more specific about what's going on? Also, how fast can this be executed? The PCs want to do this in a SINGLE DAY--and that would be nothing less than heroic. Well... they ARE heroes, aren't they? ;) But what is the "this" that you want time-frames around? I just don't get it. What you seem to be discussing is: 1) Notifying, gathering and organising 3,000 people to head to a safe destination. - Is the destination within 24 hours' travel of the city? If so, then why in the name of all the gods haven't all the people capable of making the journey already fled the city? And why the need to get food so very quickly? If the destination is MORE than 24 hours away from the city/town, why would anyone think that the undead won't be able to follow? They might not be very bright, but 3,000 people along with wagons, horses and who-knows-what-else are very easy indeed to track. 2) Pooling resources - re-distributing appropriately - organising guards, marching orders, wagons, beasts of burden, weapons and armour, plus ensuring that at the very least every "section leader" knows where they're going: if the destination was well-known and obvious, the run-down castle would already be full of commoners. It's not a case of standing on a table and shouting "come with us, we'll take you somewhere safe"; there'd be wholesale slaughter come nightfall unless the organisation was really good. 3) Actually moving the people to the destination and trying to keep them safe along the way. 3,000 people will - unless you're prepared to sacrifice stragglers - move at the rate of the slowest, most infirm member of the group or the most heavily-laden pack mule. Assuming a proportion of children, the elderly and the sick you're not going to get much more than 8 miles in a day's travel, and that's with the least-capable travellers safely stowed on wagons. A couple of other points: foraging won't work. You can't continually forage the same area for more and more food; again, game mechanics be blowed. The more days you spend foraging in the same spot, the harder it gets to find recognisable food as all the obviously-edible berries are picked clean, all the small game frightened off or caught, all the fungi made into stews... I'd suggest increasing the forage DC by at least 2 per day whilst the group is relatively stationary. Foraging also won't work quite as described in terms of numbers because not all the commoners are going to be capable of it. They're not all going to be healthy adults - a significant proportion will be too young or too frail for one reason or another. When you combine that with guard duty and other essential tasks, probably only half the population are going to be able to forage. Even so, how many people can successfully find food in the same spot? To forage, they'd have to spread out over an unfeasibly large and undefensible area. Myeviltwin's point about the undead being able to travel without tiring is also important. Are there strategic points along the way that the group could occupy and fortify to withstand minor assaults? How far away is this castle? What out of everything above are the party trying to achieve in 24 hours? If the answer is "all of it" then it's simply not possible at that level (at higher levels it's emminently possible with the right magic) but it could be done in a few days. And if it's a choice between starving or being eaten by a horde of undead, I reckon most people would put up with a day or three without food. If I were a party member, I'd be thinking about the quickest and surest way of getting the populace to safety and worrying about how to feed them on an ongoing basis once they're there. After all, once they're bedded in you need far fewer people to defend them than if they're in the open. Local hunters can be pressed into service. The party can negotiate with (or charm) merchants, farmers and others within a radius of the castle into playing ball - this is no time for half measures. I'm all for your party doing this - I think it's great and bizarrely similar to something that happened a few months ago in my game when the party moved 3,000 people 80 miles, likewise to escape an undead horde - but perhaps a few more details? :D
Brehon 05-24-06, 01:18 PM	This requires cutting your speed in half to pull off. Outrunning tireless undead at half speed.... good luck. But the DM had initially intended the PC's to fight the undead anyway. So now they're fighting the undead in an attempt to allow the people enough time to escape. My point was that the PC's don't have to be in charge of the evacuation. The town elders (or what have you) can lead the retreat while asking the adventurer's to hold back the undead tide to give them much needed time to get safely away. And, voila, the adventure is now back in sync with the DM's original plan minus 3000 walking Happy Meals for the monsters to chow down on. Aside: Now I'm wondering what sort of toy comes with the Undead Happy Meal.
fendrin 05-24-06, 01:22 PM	@Brehon: A new undead companion! @those who have not read the entire post: If I am understanding correctly, the castle/keep that the people are fleeing to is in the same war-torn city. This means that time is not an issue. The commoners have a single day in which to move a short distance to relative safety. The issue is that they are already starving, and if they flee to the (presumably empty) castle, they will be barricaded in and cannot forrage. That would be why they have not gone there yet. @the OP: Unless you are planning on a Deus Ex Machina, most if not all of these comoners ae going to die. Nevermind starvation, once the shadows attack, it's all over. Even an INT 6 shadow is smart enough to attack the helpless commoners instead of the party. That's no less intelligent than a human child. Even children are smart enough to avoid the tough and dangerous bullies on the playground. Presumably, the commoners will be barricaded in a variety of rooms, likely with doors shut and maybe locked. Unless they use divination magic or get very lucky, the shadows will enter the keep in a location not directly guarded by the PCs. It will take time for the party to get into a room to save the commoners under attack. By then, the shadows will likely have killed at least one of the commoners. 1d4 rounds later, there is another shadow starting to attack the commoners. Assumptions: 1) A pair of shadows (EL 5) attack the castle. 2) The shadows attack a room of commoners first. 3) All variables take the average. 4) Commoners all have 10 str. 5) The PCs are asleep, with one on guard. 6) The PCs can destroy a shadow in 2 turns. ROUND EVENTS 1 The 2 shadows (S1 and S2) attack commoner C1 in room R1. C1 is dropped to 3 str. The other R1 commoners wake up and start to scream. The guard PC wakes up the other PCs. 2 S1 kills C1. S2 lowers C2 to 6.5 str. The other commoners get out of bed and run to the door. The PCs pick up their weapons/gear and run to the door of R1. 3 S1 and S2 finish off C2. The commoners open the door and run out of R1. The PCs attack S1 and reduce it to 50%. 4 S1 and S2 withdraw through the floor to room R2. The commoners of R1 have fled to 'safety'. The PCs start waking up as many commoners as possible. 5 S1 and S2 attack commoner C3 in R2. C3 is dropped to 3 str. C1 rises as S3. The other R2 commoners wake up and start to scream. The PCs run to R2. 6 S1 kills C3 and flees to R3. S2 flees to R3 and attacks C4. C4 drops to 6.5 str. S3 moves to R4 and attacks C5. C5 drops to 6.5 str. C2 rises as S4. The PCs run to R3 and destroy S1. At the end of six rounds, the shadows have a net gain in power of 50%. The PCs have expended resources and thus are at a net loss of power. We can extrapolate that there would be 4.5 shadows in round 12. Given that the PCs have no hope of defeating them all, the shadows continue to multiply... In less than 2 hours, all of the commoners have been killed. there are now a couple thousand shadows inhabiting the castle. Woe to the next band of adventurers that explore that place!
Jarrad 05-24-06, 02:05 PM	@Brehon: A new undead companion! @those who have not read the entire post: If I am understanding correctly, the castle/keep that the people are fleeing to is in the same war-torn city. This means that time is not an issue. Well, I HAVE read the entire post, several times, and I'm still not sure this is the case which is why I had so many questions! The situation is that these people are being evacuated to a castle near the town. For their own security, the people have to have their food stores inside the castle, and they don't have anywhere near this much food. This is actually part of a larger city--which has been turned into a war zone. So is the "this" that's part of a larger city referring to the castle, or is it referring to the town? If it's referring to the castle, then a) why the OP's statement that getting the people in there in 24 hours would be truly heroic, b) what would they be hoping to achieve by "evacuating" people into a castle that's IN a war-torn city and c) it's a complete bust anyway; the castle will already be packed full of people and/or undead. Nah, the idea that the castle is IN the city doesn't scan. The whole idea is pointless if the shadows could get to the castle easily and the OP has already said that he doesn't think the shadows can follow (although I'm not sure why). Still, I have to agree about the likely consequences, should shadows infiltrate a building crammed with commoners. Nasty!
KJW 05-24-06, 03:07 PM	OK here is the situation as I have read it: 1) Large undead army is sweeping the countryside and heading for the community. 2) Other forces are fighting the undead. 3) The PCs have decided to evacuate the town, as they assume the undead are going to defeat the other forces and take the community. 4) They have 3000 people to evacuate. 5) There is a castle, relatively nearby (within a day's travel), that can house the refugees, but it does not have sufficient stockpiles of food. 6) They have about 24 hours before the undead reach the community, remember the OP said shadows and wights, which are quick, but it is easy to rule that during the day they don't move about that much, which means they have a little more time if they get a move on. This is the beginning of a great adventure and well within the realm of possibility. The PCs need to tell everyone to gather what food they have and set off, this is not the time of supermarkets and fast food, so most people will have some degree of food at hand. Each family should have enough food for at least a few days. Think if you were told right now to flee, you could scrounge enough food from your house for a few days. The PCs could also try gathering up nearby herds of livestock, a community this size has quite a bit, and have the livestock follow behind the refugees this depends upon the distance and time to the castle. They should be able to acquire enough food for a week with some conservation. As has been stated the problem is with a lengthy siege. DM Intervention Yes, the DM can intervene to help out the PCs, but the best way is that the DM help those who help themselves sort of approach. 1) Sunny Weather. This alone could give the PCs time and slow down the undead, which both shadows and wights, while they have no real sunlight vulnerabilities do dislike it immensely. So if the weather is bright and sunny, then the refugees and PCs should give thanks to the Gods for this miracle. 2) Castle has Wards. Maybe some of the castle is consecrated or warded against undead, this is about the only way you are going to have a long siege. This is something that is very reasonable and is a legitimate way for the DM to toss his players a bone. 3) Play the Enemy Realistically. The undead will stop in the community to search the cellars for fools who stayed behind (probably several hundred) and to await instructions from their masters. Their masters are not all knowing they may not know where the refugees went, let's say the Gods caused a heavy rain during the night to cover the tracks and slow the undead, and may have to send out scouts, which gives the PCs more time and a situation where they have to eliminate scouts before they return with their location. 4) A Better Plan. A NPC could suggest that the old and brave stay at the castle for a last stand, while the main group of refugees keeps pushing on to safety. This will extend the food reserves of the castle, force the undead to focus on the castle, and allow the other refugees to escape. This would also probably divide up the party. Your PCs are taking the harder and definitely more heroic route, you shouldn't save their hides, but give them a few opportunities to make the situation closer to a fair fight. Yes, lots of the people will die, but this plan is more likely to save lives than fighting a desperate battle might have.
Kragg Bonemeal 05-24-06, 03:12 PM	Time to rattle the cages and offend the Western sensibilities here... There is this thing in war that us fat, soft, weak, coddled Western thinkers forget about... its called "acceptable losses". You know you aren't going to be the next incarnation of Pelor and save all of them. You get what you can into the castle, slam the doors, and hold out. One thing you didn't mention is sanitation. I expect 10-15% to die from dysentery and cholera. Another 20% from lack of food. 5% from other issues... minor fighting/rioting from low resources... look at the Katrina hurricane evacuations in the strongest country in the current real world. Now look backward 1500 years. You are shooting for SURVIVAL. Not halo-glowing, I'm-so-great, mythic accompliments. You save what you can to rebuild and repopulate. Welcome to the real fantasy-world. :) People die in wars. If you accomplish the goal of surviving the undead onslaught, you technically win. PS- this is a great role play opportunity for the Good aligned characters. How do they decide on the rationing of food? Feed the young men first so they are stong enough to help repel the attackers knowing that the elderly and some young will die in the process? How brutal do you become to stop "hoarders" that won't share food? What about other crimes committed while locked away?
Rolof 05-24-06, 04:30 PM	I like what KJW had to say, also would point out that in the 3.5 rules there is no longer any such thing as 0 level, so all your commoners will be 1st level: which means they have 5d4 gold in resources. Even assuming that in a time of war things are rough, I'd say that leaves them with 5 gp worth of something...whether it be chickens, the wedding ring of the missus, a hoe for tending garden and a few vegetables from said garden. I would assume that the people can all be fed from their own resources for 1 day or even 1d4 days. And though I think Brehon was a bit too optimistic due to the difficulty of mass foragers, still the idea had some merit just won't be as effective. And whoever mentioned the idea of living off of livestock wasn't far off either-in times of war, dogs get scarce, know what I mean? Also consider that in theory at least, since you say water is covered, people can survive without food for up to a month-not happily, but it can be done. That's going off modern times, with modern medicine and health/food levels, so it would be safe to say less for a common medieval society...perhaps 2-4 d6 days instead. Should still definitely cover the 1 day journey, no problem. The logistics of food shouldn't really factor until they're IN the castle. Somebody also mentioned that some fools will probably not abandon their homes-I agree with that. Might be an encounter or two you could have, the PCs trying to convince them to with diplomacy, force, whatever-as was said, some good opportunities for roleplaying and morals debates for the good aligned members of the party.
Zombayz1 05-24-06, 05:31 PM	Ok, there's wights. YOUR PLAYERS ARE SCREWED!! W1/2: attacks and kills commoners(2) Commoner:wake up and scream/run party:get halfway to commoners w1/2: attacks and kills commoners(2) party:kills w1 w2/3/4: kill commoners(3) party: kill w2 w3/4/5/6: killl commoners(4) party: kill w3 w4/5/6/7/8/9:kill commoners party: kill w4 w5/6/7/8/9/10/11: kill commoners(6) Do you see where this is going? Kill those commoners now, because that is better than 3000 wights running around spawning 24/7!! PS: Spay or nueter your wight now. One wight can mutiply into 994519296000000 in one year! (this is the actual number).
Amon_WinterfallIV 05-24-06, 07:38 PM	Exponential Growth of Wights and Shadows--yes indeed. That's why this effort is being taken in the first place. This isn't so much a forfeit as the PCs are trying to deliberately reduce the casualties of the commoners,as well as the other factions trying to fight for control of the the city (and the country). Exponential growth UNCHECKED would mean certain doom for everyone, but the undead are getting killed (rekilled?) in combat with other factions. Said keep is behind battle lines, so unless those break entirely, the commoners would get through. I recognize that if this plan goes completely awry, the PCs have just created a nearly unstoppable wave of 3k shadows/wights. The party recognizes that too. @"Acceptable losses". Remember, the Party is only planning on 15 days in the castle. Beyond that point, they should be able to buy from foriegn powers or something (albeit at heavy cost, but it can be done). Also, everyone that dies to shadows or wights turns into them. The Necromancer faction in this nation deliberately planned this as a "mass wasting" attack. These plans can well come true. @Zombay: Wights, fortunately take 1d4 rounds to reanimate. Yours is the worst case scenario. They are only +3 to hit so they'll miss about 1/3 of the time, and the commoners are not going to stand around and get slaughtered--they will run around in large circles if they have to, or they will simply drop the portcullis in front of the Wights. And with a Wight's 12 Str, that could well do it--their energy drain is the chief killer, they can not either break or lift a portcullis.
Zombayz1 05-24-06, 07:58 PM	Point taken. But as an undead expert, I assume wost case scenario. THEY'RE EVERYWHERE!!! YOU CAN RUN, BUT THEY WILL CATCH UP!!! BHUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! *ahem* Sorry 'bout that got a little carried away...
Gedrin 05-25-06, 12:06 AM	Shadows are incorporeal. They will ignore the weapons of the soliders in the castle. They will ignore the armor of the soliders in the castle. However, the real issue is that they will ignore the castle itself. Of course they can also fly if they decide they don't want to just incorporeal their way through the castle's interior walls (the main wall is safe, as it is 6' thick or more, the interior walls aren't that thick, nor are the tower and gatekeep roofs). The castle is a big box that the peasants can't escape, and that the undead can walk into and out of at thier leisure. If the undead have a clever commander, he's also realized that "battle lines" are a pretty silly thing when one of your front line troops (you know, the one's that can't be hurt by your enemy's weapons) can phase through earth AND fly through the sky.
Amon_WinterfallIV 05-25-06, 12:54 AM	You are completely correct Gedrin- The commoners will be quickly finished if the Shadows go after them. If the PCs are smart though, the evacuations will take place in the daytime. The Castle/Palace would be a swift end to everyone if it was stormed by the shadows. But are they smart enough to do it? That depends on what they are ordered to do-and even if they decide to go after the commoners, the PCs have got the approval of the Necromancer's enemies in this plan. Therefore, the Shadows probably wouldn't get the chance, as they'd be polished off before they made it that far. If the PCs plans work correctly, this would either cut off the Undeads recruitment arm--or it would force a massive decisive battle on grounds of the PCs choosing. Also, I beleive that Shadows are too stupid to pick and choose easy targets (Int 6, remember)--they are driven by undead rage against the living, so they hit the nearest targets, not the weakest. If that decisive battle is lost--and if it is even fought in the first place--the Shadows get to reload their ranks and possibly finish their foes for good.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-25-06, 01:13 AM	How about 1 pig an a liberal use of Regeneration spells? A dagger and cure spells would work. Sleep the pig, then begin surgery. I wonder how much pork you can cut off before Petunia hits -9 and needs a cure mod?
Shaggy_Shaggs 05-25-06, 01:20 AM	Also, I beleive that Shadows are too stupid to pick and choose easy targets (Int 6, remember)--they are driven by undead rage against the living, so they hit the nearest targets, not the weakest. Animals have Int 1 or 2, and predatory animals can and will go after the apparently weakest, slowest, easiest prey. There's no reason shadows should be considered too dumb to do so. I think it might be accurate to say, however, that while the shadows are smart enough to go after what seems to be the easiest target, they may have some difficulty distinguishing ruses and odd circumstances from true weakness. For example, a shadow sizing up a commoner and a typical fighter by watching them move, likely sees the fighter as the weaker of the two - after all the fighter is slower and clumsier (check penalty and speed reduction from armor) - and goes after him. Does it consider that the fighter's armor and/or big sword may be Ghost-Touched? Probably not. If the shadow goes after the fighter and gets clobbered by a Ghost-Touch greatsword but survives, does it have the smarts to back off and pick another target? Probably. Just something to think over.
Amon_WinterfallIV 05-25-06, 01:58 AM	Well, here's the trump card. Let's see what difference this makes... The Shadows and Wights are controlled Pyramidally (Someone controls someone else) The Problem is that the controllers aren't any smarter than their underlings. Control is not well explained--nor is the fact that Shadows and Wights aren't given a language. Indeed, wouldn't "having none of the abilities they had in life" actually suggest that they lack a language? A Shadow 4 steps removed from master Shadow discovers that the commoners are heading to the castle. How does it relay this information to his controllers? Would a Shadow (Alignment CE) even think of doing that? I guess I entirely fail to understand the organization of Undead. Wights are LE, so they might co-operate more. They are also not given a language, and have the same "None Abilities" clause in their description. I guess I fail to understand how Shadows and Wights trade information through their pyramidal scheme. For the record, the Shadows and Wights are being controlled through their pyramid, not by direct control, so they are really held to their low Int score, at least at the moment.
ManTimeForgot 05-25-06, 03:20 AM	Doesn't really matter since there are a wealth of circumstantial modifiers in play that serve to ameliorate if not completely neutralize the immediate threat to the commoners by the undead. Geographically the keep is situated on a peninsula. Geographically the keep is located not far to the north of the main guild house of a guild rival to the necromancers (and happens to be on friendly terms with the party). Situationally the party has managed to secure the support of a group of local Kordite clerics to guard the keep. All told this will make it much more difficult for an undead incursion to be successful. As far as the commoners deaths being a forgone conclusion... Well consider for a moment that if the commoners were left in the war zone, then they were all as good as dead anyway. The attrition rate for commoners was absurd and would have continued to climb as the war continued on due to increased reliance upon spawned undead. The party isn't equipped to handle large scale attacks from undead, and finding and locating the heads of this pyramid scheme of undead is likely to be just as insurmountable a challenge as feeding these people. The issue is that moving them gets them out of harm's way right now, and killing a head shadow just leaves a bunch of uncontrolled shadows roaming the streets and the people still in harm's way. And as far as the commoners food supplies are concerned consider that fishing may be a viable option (though I am unsure how successful this would be due to seasonal and skill restraints). MTF
Gedrin 05-25-06, 04:08 AM	You are completely correct Gedrin- The commoners will be quickly finished if the Shadows go after them. If the PCs are smart though, the evacuations will take place in the daytime. Again, not really sure how you're going to do this in under a day (or 12 hrs now). Sneaking off with 3000 commoners (complete with screaming todlers and feeble octagenarians) doesn't strike me as practical. Also, there's nothing that keeps shadows from acting durring the day, in full daylight. They're not as stealthy then...unless they're moving through the floor. The Castle/Palace would be a swift end to everyone if it was stormed by the shadows. But are they smart enough to do it? That depends on what they are ordered to do-and even if they decide to go after the commoners, the PCs have got the approval of the Necromancer's enemies in this plan.I think it's pretty basic tactics for flying, shadow dwelling, creatures to fly in at night and kill things. Attacking en-mass using your most natural tactic isn't really a leap of military brilliance. They're not "dumb undead" either, they're Int 6, which means they're able to form more complex stalking and attack plans than lions and wolves. Shadows are just wrong. I can't figure out how they don't take over vast swaths of land like a cyclical plague. Maybe there's a cleric of Pelor who's job it is to go in and nuke any area that has more than 10 shadows in one place. Therefore, the Shadows probably wouldn't get the chance, as they'd be polished off before they made it that far. You have someone who can see shadows in the night sky? If they've got a good leader, the shadows would come in from below. Slipping through the earth like it wasn't there. If the PCs plans work correctly, this would either cut off the Undeads recruitment arm--or it would force a massive decisive battle on grounds of the PCs choosing. Also, I beleive that Shadows are too stupid to pick and choose easy targets (Int 6, remember)--they are driven by undead rage against the living, so they hit the nearest targets, not the weakest.Well, if they can't discriminate targets at all...yeh. I guess you could just throw cows out and distract them with livestock at that point. If they're going to be so dumb as to be slowed down from their objective by forces they could go around...then sure...you'll have all sorts of options. Remember, shadows can do any of the following: out run soldiers, fly over soldiers, go under soldiers, go through soliders. The only reason shadows have to fight line troops, is to make more shadows. Doesn't really matter since there are a wealth of circumstantial modifiers in play that serve to ameliorate if not completely neutralize the immediate threat to the commoners by the undead.If there are, great. I've not seen anything that would stop the genius tactic of "hrm...i'm nearly invisible at night, I can walk through walls, the soldiers can't hurt me, and there's a big pile of food over there...". Geographically the keep is situated on a peninsula.Irrelivant to the shadows. Any physical barrier plays to their advantage. Geographically the keep is located not far to the north of the main guild house of a guild rival to the necromancers (and happens to be on friendly terms with the party).This could be useful. Magic and other incorporeal creatures will work against the shadows. Situationally the party has managed to secure the support of a group of local Kordite clerics to guard the keep.This'll be very worthwhile too. All told this will make it much more difficult for an undead incursion to be successful.Normally, I'd say yes. I'm not sure what kind of anti-shadow defenses can be put up in so short a time, and I'm not sure how many people those defenses could protect. If you do have enough clerics and mages of enough power that you can either ward the areas you need or guard them with counter-forces...then there's no issue. You'd probably also have enough power at your disposal to provide food and water for the civilians too. It's worth noting, for the coldly calculating, that the necromancers have a ready supply of materials for making a defensive force of shadows. It looks like, contrary to my first impression, that the PC's have ready access to large ammounts of powerful priests and necromancers. These are the exact kinds of people you'd want to help out. With enough magic that you could defend this many people from a foe that can fly, walk through walls, and self replicate in under 30 seconds...I'm not sure how feeding/controlling them could possibly be a problem.
Zombayz1 05-25-06, 07:45 PM	Actually, according to LM, wights speak any languages they knew in life. They are also smarter then shadows at 11 Int. In this case they would be more effective combatants, too(1 hit kill energy drain).
Always-Late 05-25-06, 09:26 PM	Just call up the nearest king, high-level wizard, wandering (high-level) adventurer, or otherworldly being for help. Hi! Are you looking for followers? Ever wanted to lord over 3,000 commoners? Do you not want 3,000 wights knocking at your door? Don't delay! Arrive today! Much gold and glory and prestige and statues await anyone who wants to either evacuate 3,000 commoners, destroy some undead, procure a lake of holy water, or simply just get us all out of this mess. No application necessary. Survivors of massive undead assault get priority.
Amon_WinterfallIV 05-26-06, 12:23 AM	The party can definitely ask for help. They are a mission from another country run by a good-aligned king who would almost certainly intervene to stop the slaughter of 3,000 commoners. The Problem really comes down to timing--the party lacks a fortune to draw a profit-motivated hero, and this nation's current warfare forces others (even those more capable than the party into a more mundane role) The government of this city/nation is non-existant. Placing a help wanted sign is a great idea, problem is that It takes awhile for people to read the classifeds part of the newspaper. It would also mean that the PCs have decided to give up on the idea, and ACCEPT the creation of this many undead, and conceding that they can not stop it.
Andorxor 05-26-06, 05:06 AM	Are there trolls nearby that they can catch?
prawn 05-26-06, 01:23 PM	Polymorph other ant -> whale. Slaughter whale and eat!
Andorxor 05-26-06, 01:47 PM	Poly any + Ant => Whale Poly Whale + Slaughter => A dead ant
Milandros 05-26-06, 03:19 PM	The commoners will certainly have a certain amount of food stored in their own houses. They don't, after all, have a local supermarket with refrigerators available that's re-stocked every night - while bread may be baked daily, the grain is only available each harvest. If the PCs order them to take all the food they can carry with them (or at least one sack of grain) when they leave their homes, they should have several weeks of food available - even if it's only porridge.
Gedrin 05-26-06, 03:35 PM	The commoners will certainly have a certain amount of food stored in their own houses. They don't, after all, have a local supermarket with refrigerators available that's re-stocked every night - while bread may be baked daily, the grain is only available each harvest. If the PCs order them to take all the food they can carry with them (or at least one sack of grain) when they leave their homes, they should have several weeks of food available - even if it's only porridge.Unfortunately, this won't be the case. First, there's no refrigeration. Stored food is somewhat limited because of this. Just as it's limited at market, it's limited in the home as well. The local market might have food, if the city wasn't in total chaos. Looters and the waring factions have probably already demolished any concentrated stock of supplies. These are also urban commoners, not country commoners. Most country commoners know how to can, pickle and salt food, they store it for the winter in their cellars. City commoners are more likely to know a non-agricultural trade, and have higher wages. Most city commoners don't have a cellar. They won't have a 50lb sack of grain in their home. There's just less food around in a quasi-14th century environment. Food's just not as plentiful. Yeild per acre is about 1/10th of what it is today, and though the proportion of farmers/others is lower, the number of acres farmed is far, far, fewer. Depending on the time of year, there might be no stored food anywhere. The end of winter is an ideal time for undead to attack, because human armies have pretty much eaten all their food over winter. Finally, if the conflict in the city has been going on for a few days, many commoners are already out of food. I don't think the food issue is a problem though, if there are enough Kordite clerics to defend a castle from the shadows, they can probably put the food needed together.
Milandros 05-26-06, 06:11 PM	Unfortunately, this won't be the case. First, there's no refrigeration. Stored food is somewhat limited because of this. Just as it's limited at market, it's limited in the home as well. The local market might have food, if the city wasn't in total chaos. Looters and the waring factions have probably already demolished any concentrated stock of supplies. These are also urban commoners, not country commoners. Most country commoners know how to can, pickle and salt food, they store it for the winter in their cellars. City commoners are more likely to know a non-agricultural trade, and have higher wages. Most city commoners don't have a cellar. They won't have a 50lb sack of grain in their home. There's just less food around in a quasi-14th century environment. Food's just not as plentiful. Yeild per acre is about 1/10th of what it is today, and though the proportion of farmers/others is lower, the number of acres farmed is far, far, fewer. Depending on the time of year, there might be no stored food anywhere. The end of winter is an ideal time for undead to attack, because human armies have pretty much eaten all their food over winter. Finally, if the conflict in the city has been going on for a few days, many commoners are already out of food. I don't think the food issue is a problem though, if there are enough Kordite clerics to defend a castle from the shadows, they can probably put the food needed together. Since it's genuinely urban, rather than a country town, you're right that they're unlikely to have large food stocks (unlike a smaller village), and if the city granaries have already been plundered then that is a problem - but they've probably still got something, even if it's only half a loaf, the remains of yesterday's soup, some past-its-best cheese and a couple of sausages. It's not a lot, but... it'll keep you alive for an extra week or two. Hungry, sure, but alive. Because of the lack of refrigeration and the lack of world-wide shipping, people usually had to do with whatever came from the last harvest, plus dried, pickled or smoked foods. New food doesn't arrive every day, as there isn't a harvest every day, so storage is vitally important - it's one of the reasons towns and cities didn't appear until some form of storage such as pottery existed. Of course, in a larger town, a lot of this is likely to go through granaries and city stores sold via merchants, and these would probably be rapidly looted. As a wryly amused side note, I'm always suprised how many people respond to any player or DM in-game problem question with "Cast 3 wishes, a Miracle and use your Ancient Wyrm Gold Dragon cohort" type answers (on the player boards as well), or "Buy a vorpal holy keen brilliant energy longsword" answers. Not everyone starts their campaigns at 20th level, you know... though it seems like quite a few do!
prawn 05-26-06, 09:12 PM	Poly any + Ant => Whale Poly Whale + Slaughter => A dead ant Did I miss something? from the SRD: 9+ Permanent Manticore to shrew If that change is permanent, why would it suddenly end when you started slaughtering the whale? Would the manticore turn back into a shrew when it died?
BRJN 05-26-06, 11:36 PM	Well, for a different light on it, ask yourself this: how does an IRL railroad get all the crops off the farms and into ... wherever they move foodstuffs to? The answers you find or think up for this may shed light on the original problem. The PCs will need to get the peasants to do this: empty the grainaries and start milling/grinding all grain into flour. Other peasants can make said flour into bread. If you actually make biscuits, you get emergency travel rations. Anything edible but relatively immobile (a flock of chickens?) will have to be butchered and smoked or otherwise prepared. Anything edible and self-propelled (sheep, goats, cows) should be brought along and eaten en route. Do not forget to load a few wagons with hay and cattle fodder. (Put these wagons up front so the animals will smell food and willingly follow it around; saves hassle.) Do not count on being able to buy/sell like normal. Expect to barter or give away for free. Yes, this will take two or three days (a wild guess) to complete. THEN they can get moving. Maybe the PCs can deplete the local stock of undead in the meanwhile. How are you going to prevent the people from trying to bring along evrything they can possible carry? Especially the obnoxious rich guy who thinks everybody else's purpose for existing is to provide him with an easy life? Most peasants own so little stuff that several families can share a standard Heavy Wagon. Middle-class people, though, have more stuff than they can transport. Rich people...
Gondor 05-27-06, 12:03 AM	A single troll is CR 5. You have a fifth-level party in desperate need of a source of large quantities of food. Coincidence? I think not. I think Sulaco was on the right track; some sort of regenerating creature should be able to provide enough food. I'm not sure I'd want to eat troll, but I doubt the townsfolk have much choice.
BenTGaidin 05-27-06, 12:56 AM	The problem is logistics: How does one get 22 tons of foodstuffs (which is just 15 days worth of food for this many people) in a very short time frame (like on the scale of days.) Because the town (and the surrounding countryside) is in a state of civil war, this isn't exactly lying around. Normally these people have to scrounge for the foodstuffs anyhow, but if they are moved inside of an derelict palace that's also not possible. http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=0008245 3-B621-118B-B62183414B7F0000&catID=3&topicID=3 http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/34998 http://www.slate.com/id/2102228/ Some (possibly) helpful links are above; basically, in this situation I wouldn't try. Most of them (who've survived civil war and undead invasion so far) are probably healthy enough to survive a 15-day starvation. I'd suggest that the party worry more about getting people into the castle and protected from the undead, and then ration out what little food people were able to bring with to children and the very elderly. If any scavenging seems possible (eg, they hear about a protected storehouse that might be yet unlooted), go out and get it after everyone's settled in. Also, I'd suggest that spellcasters prepare (in slots not saved for fending off undead) lots of Sleep spells, or Charm Person and tell them "You're not really feeling that hungry right now; you can hold out for a few more days," or anything else that will help keep calm when a few belligerants complain because there isn't enough food.
Andorxor 05-27-06, 02:28 AM	Did I miss something? from the SRD: 9+ Permanent Manticore to shrew If that change is permanent, why would it suddenly end when you started slaughtering the whale? Would the manticore turn back into a shrew when it died? 1. Ant to whale is +7 or +5 not +9. A whale isn't the same size- A whale is a mammal and a ant is a insect A whale has a higher intelligence than a ant A ant and a whale aren't related,but if you twist your logic enought you could proable get this +2 The whale and the ant are both animals,that would be the only bonus you can add,that gives you 12 hours duration. 2.Permanent isn't instantious.The spell can still be ended. 3. Poly any is based on Poly If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead. 4.Even if you keep the whale alive and only cut parts from it,you wouldn't get any food,because Poly is based on Alter Self Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.
Tuah 05-27-06, 03:30 AM	Think of it this way: An average cart usually pulls around 200 lbs of stuff. 22 x 2000 = 44,000 44,000 / 200 = 220 That's 220 carts, and there has to be at least that much in a village. One ton is not that much if you think about it.
Amon_WinterfallIV 05-27-06, 04:27 AM	http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=0008245 3-B621-118B-B62183414B7F0000&catID=3&topicID=3 http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/34998 http://www.slate.com/id/2102228/ Some (possibly) helpful links are above; basically, in this situation I wouldn't try. Most of them (who've survived civil war and undead invasion so far) are probably healthy enough to survive a 15-day starvation. I'd suggest that the party worry more about getting people into the castle and protected from the undead, and then ration out what little food people were able to bring with to children and the very elderly. If any scavenging seems possible (eg, they hear about a protected storehouse that might be yet unlooted), go out and get it after everyone's settled in. Also, I'd suggest that spellcasters prepare (in slots not saved for fending off undead) lots of Sleep spells, or Charm Person and tell them "You're not really feeling that hungry right now; you can hold out for a few more days," or anything else that will help keep calm when a few belligerants complain because there isn't enough food. Ah, couple problems though, mostly on a matter of scale. We are talking about 3,000 people here. Yes, most of them will SURVIVE going hungry for two weeks, but will they co-operate with that if that is the plan? I think its probably WAY TOO MANY people to keep in line--3,000 is very large number of people. While there are good ways to create food on the micro-level (just you and your friends), I remain convinced that Lesser Wish is probably required to generate the food needed. That means the Party's going to have to get their hands on a scroll of that! :thinks: Creating "Vegatable Matter" with fabricate is technically not allowed (one material into another) Create Food is a microscale idea. A Regenerating creature. Okay, I wonder at the mechanics of this. I'm thinking that this might well result in catching "blue guts" disease--I doubt that trolls are edible. Even if this is not a concern, thinking about time. You'd have to somehow lockup the troll so that it could be ranched for food. Then everyone would have to deal 10 damage or something to rip off a pound of its flesh (cooking it is probably not a major issue as fire seems to be cheaper than foodstuffs). This would be done 3,000 times a day. Thats a rate of once every 5 rounds. Sorry all, but while that's very clever, I'm going to have to rule that Trolls aren't edible. (If they were, they'd be an INFINITE food source) A non-regenerating creature given regeneration though is more valid, as its converting magic energy into foodstuff energy. 22 tons is not very much split 3000 ways. But this is just the foodstuffs. Assuming that people litterally took only the clothes on their backs and water can be easily provded (magic makes that pretty easy), thats the figure. Any luxuries or other items (such as bedding, clothes, or very personal belongings aren't included in that figure.) Neither Sleep nor Charm Person's duration is long enough to keep this matter in check. You'll get 5-8 hours of peace and quiet, and that's IT. The other 14 days, you've got yourself a large bunch of ANGRY commoners, whom you are trying to save. Commoner's food supplys are minimal at best, they are slowly starving despite their own best efforts. Some might have a little bit stashed away, but they can be counted upon on not sharing it. Forcing them to share would almost certainly raise tensions. Managing 3,000 people is can be very difficult. The Party has choosen the harder path, and I'm going to roll with it.
BenTGaidin 05-27-06, 05:33 AM	Ah, couple problems though, mostly on a matter of scale. We are talking about 3,000 people here. Yes, most of them will SURVIVE going hungry for two weeks, but will they co-operate with that if that is the plan? Well, I wasn't thinking of telling them. *wry grin* More along the lines of "Hey everyone! Grab your stuff and let's hurry to the castle if you don't want the undead army catching you!" Someone with a good Bluff skill gets to answer any smart questions about how everyone's going to get fed, and then once everyone's in the castle... and realizes that they're on literally starvation rations... Well, people who are foolish enough to want to take their chances against an undead army are welcome to a blessing/last rites from the cleric, a hearty handshake and 'Good luck' from the fighter, and a hand out the back door from the rogue. One less mouth to feed, and a single person (or small group) _might_ be able to slip away without being noticed, if they're really lucky.