Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cyra 09-13-05, 09:44 PM	This thread is aimed at giving examples of pitfalls or typical ways to sabotage a campaign. Something to help everyone look out for things that just might ruin a campaign. 1.) Gunpowder- I dunno how some of you do it. I introduced it and suddenly their buying tons (at high prices, they used all their resources on this one) and just blowing up their enemies.
hollow_ghost 09-13-05, 09:52 PM	2) Allow your players to face their doubles, then telling them to double their loot. 6 CR 8 with suddenly 2 +3 Defending Composite Longbow (STR bonus +2) of Spell Storing...
Commander of Chaos 09-13-05, 09:55 PM	3) that *#$& who wont learn the rules, and complains that you wont let him DM.
codexia 09-13-05, 09:55 PM	4) Letting your players talk you into not being as stingy with magic items when they are in a low magic campaign =/ Boy did that get ugly...
clarkvalentine 09-13-05, 09:59 PM	5) Deciding that you "must" kill off a particular PC.
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 09-13-05, 10:05 PM	6. Allowing your PCs to play "anything below LA +6 or up to a level 6 PC", in a starter-campaign.
Sergikins 09-13-05, 10:17 PM	7.) Telling your players that as long as you meet the pre reqs, I don't care what book it's from, you can play it. 8.) Assinating random people because you "feel" like it.... and it's a paladin (note, players way to ruin a campaign) 9.) Playing without caffine This should be changed to 1001 ways to ruin a perfectly good campaign
Talanall 09-13-05, 10:23 PM	10) Ask for advice on these boards about how to resolve a conflict with a player or DM, and then follow it.
green_yawgmoth 09-13-05, 10:28 PM	11. Have your players encounter an evil god, and have said god tell them exactly what to do. 12. Have the above god come in right before the players accomplish what they're supposed to do, and do it himself. :nonono: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Cyra 09-13-05, 10:40 PM	This should be changed to 1001 ways to ruin a perfectly good campaign I was aiming low...pretty low indeed.
codexia 09-13-05, 10:44 PM	I was aiming low...pretty low indeed. Considering the topic at hand, your going to get WAY more then 25 :P
Serielle 09-13-05, 10:46 PM	13) Have different currencies in your campaign. Forget to define conversion ratios beforehand. Give the player a number that "seems ok" off the top of your head when they ask. Have this number result in the pcs getting 280,000 more GP than they should have when they convert back into gold peices.
codexia 09-13-05, 10:49 PM	14) Based on the previous one, and on something that happened in my campaign. -Have the king reward them with X pounds of gold, because you think it's about right. Then later, have somebody actually look up how much that weight in gold is :eek: 1,000,000 gold >.>;;; um...oops?
DInDenver 09-13-05, 10:49 PM	Hi! 15) Let a player try a wepon or invention from a movie...
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-13-05, 10:58 PM	15) Let the pyromaniac play a CN character. If it wasn't for my distaste for PKing, his character would've been dead by the second session.
EyelessBeholder 09-13-05, 11:04 PM	16) Hand out Vorpal blades to goblins. ( Had a dm who gave every random encouter mobs anythign vorpal capabile a 5% chance )
green_yawgmoth 09-13-05, 11:15 PM	18. Let every player have anything s/he homebrewed based completely on the name of the creation. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Ridureyu 09-13-05, 11:17 PM	Actually, it might be funny to have a character play a baby tarrasque. it's so young it's human-sized, the shell isn't very hard yet, it doesn't regenerate like a troll, and they have to use magic to give it even the intelligence of Gollum.
Warchicken 09-14-05, 11:35 AM	20. Change DMs half (or part)-way through the campaign when the current goes out of town. Happened with my current group. We were playing a good party in Eberron and things weren't that bad. The first DM actually has some knowledge about the campaign setting, but went to visit his family and got one of the other people who was playing to DM. He didn't now jack about Eberron and constantly tried to kill our cleric because he was too powerful. Of course a good cleric at lvl 14 starts to get rather powerful rather quickly when played by a powergamer. Of course sending undead against a party with 2 good clerics and paladin is always a bad idea.
High Octane 09-14-05, 11:57 AM	21. One word: Gestalt. (In a campaign of more than 2 PCs) 22. Allow campaign specific feats and spells outside the campaign they were made in.
Spike_Fightwicky 09-14-05, 12:00 PM	23. Allowing characters who are dissatisfied with their characters to change in mid-game.... You let them do it once, they'll keep doing it.
scott644 09-14-05, 12:01 PM	24) Ask for advice on resolving DM vs Player issues in this forum, and then don't apply it. 25) Introduce "supercharacters" who take the limelight in scenarios. 26) Run a plotline that arcs, giving a clue about once a session - but having nothing planned to speed up the pace when the PC's try to take it further and the game stalls. 27) Run metaplots in the overall game world that are impossible to ignore, which directly impact the PC's, but which the PC's themselves have absolutely no impact on whatsoever. Also known as railroading.
clarkvalentine 09-14-05, 12:06 PM	23. Allowing characters who are dissatisfied with their characters to change in mid-game.... You let them do it once, they'll keep doing it. Meh. People have done it a couple of times in our game, it hasn't had a major negative impact. If it makes for happier players, it generally makes for a better game.
Illion the Red 09-14-05, 12:27 PM	28) Allowing the person you have never met before, walk into the game with a "premade character." 29) Allowing one player in the group to play an alighment opposed to the rest of the group. 30) Having the DM's spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend join the group without making sure that both of them can and will not play favorites.
Spike_Fightwicky 09-14-05, 12:39 PM	Meh. People have done it a couple of times in our game, it hasn't had a major negative impact. If it makes for happier players, it generally makes for a better game. Normally I'd agree, but we have 2 players out of five who enjoy the whole "Role Playing" aspect of the game more than the hack and slash, and it really sucks for them when they suddenly have no party members that they know, and the new characters have no real background compared to the old ones. It made the game better for the ones who changed, but worse for the ones who didn't. 30) Having the DM's spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend join the group without making sure that both of them can and will not play favorites. Happened in a game I was in.... Worst game ever. Everyone in the party got incapacitated, except for the DM's boyfriend, which she then allowed to solo the BBEG in a not-so glorious fight while the rest of us twiddled our thumbs. 31) Houseruling a "roll a natural 20 twice in a row, automatically kill the enemmy, roll a natural 1 twice in a row, automatically kill yourself" rule (in 2nd ed) and then the one character with a magic weapon rolls two natural 1s and falls out of a haunted tower window to his death when an important part of the scenario had to do with a campaign item he had.
Illion the Red 09-14-05, 12:47 PM	31) Houseruling a "roll a natural 20 twice in a row, automatically kill the enemmy, roll a natural 1 twice in a row, automatically kill yourself" rule (in 2nd ed) and then the one character with a magic weapon rolls two natural 1s and falls out of a haunted tower window to his death when an important part of the scenario had to do with a campaign item he had. 31b) Allowing a single die roll be the sole factor for success/failure of the entire campaign. The player WILL roll a "1" or the BBEG WILL roll a "20."
myeviltwin 09-14-05, 12:53 PM	32) Deck of Many Things (someone had to say it)
clarkvalentine 09-14-05, 12:55 PM	Normally I'd agree, but we have 2 players out of five who enjoy the whole "Role Playing" aspect of the game more than the hack and slash, ... Of course. You have to do it when it makes sense in the plot - during downtime at the end of a story arc, usually, not in the middle of a dungeon crawl. It is especially appropriate when a PC achieves some sort of personal goal, and his motivation for adventuring ends or changes. My wizard PC, for instance, was retired because he'd been made Master of the Tower, an academic postion; he stayed behind there while the party moved on, and I rolled up a new PC who joined the party. It worked very nicely. Alternatively, a player can take over playing a recurring friendly NPC, a henchman, or something like that. There are a lot of ways of doing it that don't strain roleplaying all that much. And in my experience, it's always worth trying if a player really isn't happy with his character. Anyway, just my $0.02.
Spike_Fightwicky 09-14-05, 01:10 PM	31b) Allowing a single die roll be the sole factor for success/failure of the entire campaign. The player WILL roll a "1" or the BBEG WILL roll a "20." And it was because of that pooched roll that the DM switched campaigns to the one which her boyfriend was playing :mad: Of course. You have to do it when it makes sense in the plot - during downtime at the end of a story arc, usually, not in the middle of a dungeon crawl. It is especially appropriate when a PC achieves some sort of personal goal, and his motivation for adventuring ends or changes. My wizard PC, for instance, was retired because he'd been made Master of the Tower, an academic postion; he stayed behind there while the party moved on, and I rolled up a new PC who joined the party. It worked very nicely. Alternatively, a player can take over playing a recurring friendly NPC, a henchman, or something like that. There are a lot of ways of doing it that don't strain roleplaying all that much. And in my experience, it's always worth trying if a player really isn't happy with his character. Therein lies the problem. Half my group is VERY fickle and difficult to please ("Wild Shape shuts off your magic items? This character's worthless now... Druids SUCK! New character time, I'll try a gnome Combat Ranger and play them like the party's main tank. That should work" etc.....) and only enjoys the game if their characters are super effective (this never works because they min/max, so they're never good everything, just one thing, typically combat) and the other half enjoys it when they can immerse into the story with their characters, which is difficult when half the group ends up hating their character after 1-2 sessions. And trust me: the rest of us have tried to reason with them that high numbers that promote character spotlighting aren't really the way to go unless it's a pure dungeon hack game. Never works. If it's for story reasons like you mentioned, then by all means do it. But my group does it because of dissatisfaction ALL the time. And if those players aren't playing min/maxed, they're not happy. I call it Limelight Syndrome. Either way, I think they might finally be coming around, and I"m going to inject more heavy role-playing and skill based playing as soon as they're out of the place they're at now. I just hope the 2 of them that like the hack/slash can get something out of it and at least try to do some actual role playing.
clarkvalentine 09-14-05, 01:16 PM	I call it Limelight Syndrome. Yup, that's a problem. It's really tough to convince some people that they can share the limelight even if they're not the biggest baddest dude on the block. It's a play style issue - different people want different things out of the game. Yeah, switching out just because "d00d my PC suxxors because I can't get a +87 bonus" is disruptive - I can't argue with that.
Kozeljnik 09-14-05, 01:31 PM	Stepping into the evil sidequest is a good way to ruin everything... This really happened to us* (Aero, the Neutral Stupid cleric didn't tell us that the guy who was "helping" us was Lawful Evil and had a GIANT cellar filled to the brim with evil henchmen. all he told us is that "these guys could be dangerous" well no ****? two sessions later, i was Chaotic Evil, and my friends were Lawful and Neutral Evil...our DM asked us how the hell we could **** it up so badly, and we all agreed that it was Aero's fault. i hate that ******* cleric... *Us being Finian The Quick (me), gnome bard, Aero (friend #1), human cleric and Ziron (Friend #3), dwarven fighter/d. defender
LordHumungus 09-14-05, 02:40 PM	32) Deck of Many Things (someone had to say it) 32b) Make up your own much "improved" deck of many things and give one to every PC
Norhg 09-14-05, 02:58 PM	33) Introduce the 'death star' to the campaign world. AND SHARK LAZERS!!!!!!!
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 09-14-05, 03:06 PM	34. Allowing players to "drink and smoke whatever you want" during a serious session.
Morka 09-14-05, 03:08 PM	34) Introducing an Uber-powerful NPC who follows the PCs, but from times to times have something more important to do. Strangely, the PCs are always attacked when the UBer-powerful NPC is away...
evilgenius 09-14-05, 06:45 PM	36. Establish that the PCs are invulnerable... I once tried something REALLY stupid with a character, which should have gotten the character killed (in order to save the party). The DM went to such ridiculous lengths to keep me alive, we couldn't help but metagame our invulnerability. Risks became sillier and sillier, and soon it was a pointless exercise to even adventure. Solution? Don't be afraid to kill your PCs when the time comes - and ensure that no single PC is ESSENTIAL to the ENTIRE story. Story elements, yes... But not the entire story.
UltimateReality 09-14-05, 07:05 PM	only enjoys the game if their characters are super effective (this never works because they min/max, so they're never good everything, just one thing, typically combat) <...snip...> And if those players aren't playing min/maxed, they're not happy. I call it Limelight Syndrome. As a proud min-maxer, I feel compelled to tell you that these players aren't min-maxers...see, it's short for "minimizing your weaknesses and maximizing your strengths". People who get the latter half of the equation, but not the first, are more aptly referred to as powergamers. Possibly, depending on the extent to which they take it, even munchkins. Min-maxed characters generally show good all-around saves, higher AC, decent hit points, and probably a not-too-shabby initiative or Listen and Spot as well. They never neglect defense. They fit their characters around the rest of the party to ensure the entire thing works like a well-oiled machine, and keep all bases covered. They usually pick one primary specialty to be good at, but make sure the other archetypal specialties are covered first. Min-maxers don't build mountains: they fill holes. And maybe they might rearrange some dirt to make a nice little hill and plant some trees and stuff. But it'll all make a pleasing landscape when finished, and not be too hard to traverse.
Callista 09-14-05, 07:16 PM	It all depends on what you define "min-max" and "powergaming" to be. Probably the previous poster has a different opinion than the person s/he is quoting. 37.) Have a Resurrect-o-matic in every town. This makes players extremely prone to the computer-RPG syndrome, where they just think, "Okay, I died, so when do I re-spawn?"
UltimateReality 09-14-05, 08:33 PM	It all depends on what you define "min-max" and "powergaming" to be.Min-maxing: "minimizing weaknesses, and maximizing strengths". That's a fairly accepted definition on these boards. I'm saying they weren't minimizing their weaknesses, and thus, don't qualify as min-maxers. They may or may not be powergamers, munchkiners, or what have you. But they are missing half the equation that defines min-maxing. Therefore they are not min-maxers. (What, you don't know I'm a chick by now? Maybe I should stick a big female/Venus sign in my sig or something. :P)
High Octane 09-14-05, 10:33 PM	Honestly, I find that Min-Maxing does not cause the game to go bad at all unless the PC decides to use outside sources the DM does not have and/or is not familiar with. A good DM will make sure to have a versatile enough campaign that a variety of skills and abilities are tested. He shouldn't AIM for a characters weakness in particular, just make the challenges require somewhat versatile players and characters.
Traevanon 09-14-05, 11:18 PM	Haha First law of D&D: Deck of Many Things = Campaign Death Second, I always also thought of Min/Max as taking as many tradeoffs as you can to maximize your one strength, and taking as many of the tradeoffs in one category so as to make it almost never apply. If you look at that character all you would see is a Minimized area and a Maximized area, thus Min/Max. Anyhow: #38 Equipping NPCs like the PCs to teach them a lesson. (Welcome to double treasure!)
Longarms 09-14-05, 11:34 PM	39. Letting someone be a paladin Half kidding on that one.
KeltenVonRatzenberger 09-15-05, 12:59 AM	40 - Spur of the moment plot twists that you haven't fully thought out yet.
UltimateReality 09-15-05, 01:34 AM	40 - Spur of the moment plot twists that you haven't fully thought out yet. LOL, that reminds me of my most recent campaign. My guys stay out of this one: Party is hired to find out who broke into the temple's magic shop, and are interrogating witnesses. One player, in jest, goes off about how one particular airheaded girl is obviously the culprit. Well, unbeknownst to the players, the perp is actually a changeling who was impersonating a noble's son for the crime, but this idea is too good for me to let lie. So I take it up: the changeling has two concurrent identities, one as a kind of shady guy who deals in real estate and hangs out in the thieves' guild, and one as the airheaded bard apprentice who likes trashy romances. The PCs eventually learn that a changeling is behind all this, and that he impersonated the noble's son. Last session I had the "airhead" NPC come crying to the PCs that she found a clue in the alleyway, and so they followed her. Straight into an ambush. And the first thing the PCs say afterwards is "hey, someone's impersonating Airhead NPC as well as Noble's Son!" Furthermore, one player then decided to go find the changeling in his thief guise, and proceeded to sit down and talk with him and try to pull some sneaky stuff, completely unaware the guy knew exactly who he was. He was very surprised when the changeling showed up at his door the next day and asked for him by name.
Silais 09-15-05, 03:10 AM	42. Become better at min/maxing then your players, I nearly had a TPK thanks to a min/maxed NPC that was a level lower then the party.
Flushpuppie 09-15-05, 03:28 AM	32) Deck of Many Things (someone had to say it) mwooah, it's not that bad. and it didn't ruin our campaign at all. They just own a keep now :D
Black Kitten 09-15-05, 03:48 AM	43) Alcohol at the table 44) Rod of Wonder On #42... I have that even when I focus only make a flavourable character (Quarterstaff Fighters, Unarmed Rogues, Wizard/Sorcerers, etc)
spectralphoenix 09-15-05, 04:01 AM	45) Allowing Savage Species in a game with one or more munchkins or powergamers. You'll never see a base race character again.
erc1971 09-15-05, 08:13 AM	32) Deck of Many Things (someone had to say it) Damn, you beat me to it! :P
digoraccoon 09-15-05, 08:26 AM	37.) Have a Resurrect-o-matic in every town. This makes players extremely prone to the computer-RPG syndrome, where they just think, "Okay, I died, so when do I re-spawn?" LOL, I had a modern conspiracy game where the PCs found an alien device that did that (Inspired by the coffin in Stargate). I corrected that problem by imposing a limit to the number of times you can "Safely" be ressurected. After that, people started turning into undead zombies and dying so they used it sparingly... :D 46. Sphere of Annihilation - *Poof* Dragon is dead. *Poof* BBEG is dead. *Poof* TPK. :eek: 47. Greek Fire in Quantity - Hey guys, let's make a Molotov co- *BOOM* 47. Not Resolving OOC Arguments When They Occur - Had I ended the argument between two of my players when it stared, I wouldn't have this year long debacle that I have in my group. Finally got it resolved... :surrender:
VirgilCaine 09-15-05, 08:49 AM	LOL, I had a modern conspiracy game where the PCs found an alien device that did that (Inspired by the coffin in Stargate). I corrected that problem by imposing a limit to the number of times you can "Safely" be ressurected. After that, people started turning into undead zombies and dying so they used it sparingly... :D That's kind of what happens in Stargate when you keep resurrecting yourself...your mind starts going, you become senile... 42. Become better at min/maxing then your players, I nearly had a TPK thanks to a min/maxed NPC that was a level lower then the party. HOW?!?! It's one guy! There's four of the PCs!
green_yawgmoth 09-15-05, 09:18 AM	HOW?!?! It's one guy! There's four of the PCs!I have a conjurer that very well might do this very thing if the PCs don't get their act together and fight as a team. Should be good for them to get a sense of teamwork about them. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Abulafia 09-15-05, 11:13 AM	10) Ask for advice on these boards about how to resolve a conflict with a player or DM, and then follow it.Which is a feat in and of itself, since almost all threads contain conflicting advice. digoraccoon used 47 twice, so I'm going to make this -- 49. Introduce Spellfire, or any similar feat-based system wherein non-spellcasters can replicate spell effects. 50. Encourage intra-party conflict "for story reasons." 51. Make dramatic rules changes mid-campaign ("Hey guys, I know we've all had a good time so far, but I thought it would be fun to do away with levels from here on out").
High Octane 09-15-05, 11:24 AM	That's kind of what happens in Stargate when you keep resurrecting yourself...your mind starts going, you become senile... That's also what happens when you WATCH Stargate! (Okay I'm kidding, I wouldn't know but that was too easy to not take a stab at.)
1BadazzBaatezu 09-15-05, 11:28 AM	52. Allowing anyone who asks if they can play a dual-spiked-chain-wielding Half Ogre into the game, even if you didn't let them have the character. 53. Not Playtesting 3rd party stuff before you allow it. 54. Allowing the Applied Mathematics Major in the group to SEE the rules. 55. Or the Statistics major. 56. Allowing anything originally seen in the comics in Dragon Magazine. 57. Allowing anyone to stack templates... (Nightmares... Darned Winged Fiendish Feral Bugbears...) That's alls I gots!
Nyarlathotep 09-15-05, 11:34 AM	43) Alcohol at the table Hasn't ruined our games, though admittedly we never drink to excess. gaming is a social activity. A couple of my players and I have a taste for fine microbrews so our game is often an excuse to show off our latest "finds" :D
clarkvalentine 09-15-05, 11:44 AM	Hasn't ruined our games, though admittedly we never drink to excess. gaming is a social activity. A couple of my players and I have a taste for fine microbrews so our game is often an excuse to show off our latest "finds" :D That sounds a LOT like my group. We're also coffee fiends, and do a similar thing with coffee in the colder months.
Limit 09-15-05, 12:33 PM	44) Rod of Wonder My players hate that rod now. One of them took it last campaign and would always use it during "uh oh" moments in the hope that something good would come of it. He did successfully turn one monsters blue, grow grass on a barge, and cast a cloud spell on creatures that didn't breathe. :evillaugh 58. Create an artifact that allows the players to brand someone with a mark that causes instant, no level loss reincarnations upon death. Although, I did laugh until tears came out when their solution to a diseased gnome was to brand him and throw him out the second story window. :weep:
spectralphoenix 09-15-05, 01:36 PM	54. Allowing the Applied Mathematics Major in the group to SEE the rules. As an engineering major with a good grasp on probability, I have to agree with you.
green_yawgmoth 09-15-05, 01:51 PM	44) Rod of Wonder IMC, the rod of wonder is a major artifact with about 40 different possible outcomes. I want to make a list of 100, though. :schemes: Edit: I have it done! About 90 outcomes, some good, some bad, some just very, very odd. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 09-15-05, 02:12 PM	59. Wild Magic Surges...:smirk:
McWyrm 09-15-05, 03:34 PM	57. Allowing anyone to stack templates... (Nightmares... Darned Winged Fiendish Feral Bugbears...) Hey, where did you find the Darned template? That sounds neat.
Spike_Fightwicky 09-15-05, 03:51 PM	As a proud min-maxer, I feel compelled to tell you that these players aren't min-maxers...see, it's short for "minimizing your weaknesses and maximizing your strengths". People who get the latter half of the equation, but not the first, are more aptly referred to as powergamers. Possibly, depending on the extent to which they take it, even munchkins. Min-maxed characters generally show good all-around saves, higher AC, decent hit points, and probably a not-too-shabby initiative or Listen and Spot as well. They never neglect defense. They fit their characters around the rest of the party to ensure the entire thing works like a well-oiled machine, and keep all bases covered. They usually pick one primary specialty to be good at, but make sure the other archetypal specialties are covered first. Min-maxers don't build mountains: they fill holes. And maybe they might rearrange some dirt to make a nice little hill and plant some trees and stuff. But it'll all make a pleasing landscape when finished, and not be too hard to traverse. Now it appears as though we have conflicting ideas on min/maxing and I apologize for pidgeon-holing the term. To me, what you just described is not a min/maxed character at all. In fact, it looks like a max/maxed character (there's no real "min" if you have good saves, AC, HP, attack, Listen, Spot, etc...) My definition of min/maxing is to make the character supremely good at one thing at the cost of many other things. For example, the Palading who puts all his skill/feats into making a brutal mounted warrior, but can do net to nothing when off his horse or unable to charge. Or a cleric who puts all their resources into making a brutal large melee character, who gets hit by a dispel magic or has to fight in tight quarters and has next to nothing else to do) In short, my definition of Min/Maxing is Minimizing all other aspects of your character to Maximize one thing to the best it can get. For the record, I try to make all my characters min/maxed the way you do: they may not be the best at what they do, but can cope with many situations. I prefer flexibility/adaptability over a one dimensional character.
ShadowDragon8685 09-15-05, 04:05 PM	*snip* 58. Create an artifact that allows the players to brand someone with a mark that causes instant, no level loss reincarnations upon death. Although, I did laugh until tears came out when their solution to a diseased gnome was to brand him and throw him out the second story window. :weep: :heehee Well, there goes ANOTHER mouthful of frosty. I shoulden't read this board while eating anything ice-creamy. :)
Ogmug 09-15-05, 06:01 PM	That sounds a LOT like my group. We're also coffee fiends, and do a similar thing with coffee in the colder months. I brew my own (beer) and like to use my players as guinea pigs.. er i mean taste testers. I once combined beer with espresso. I called it bug-eye beer. It didn't taste too bad either. muhahahahah. 60. Not reading the d20 supplement books. 61. Not reading them before allowing thier contents into the game. 62. Turning the game from an adventure oriented to a political / social setting (plot twists due to politics instead of epic fantasy).
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 09-15-05, 06:07 PM	63. Attempt to assign a D&D-like alignment to real historcial figures and using them in a high-fantasy, high-magic campaign. (i.e. George Bush, the Evil Overlord, or Muhatma Ghandi, the leader of the VoP Monks.)
Esgarblackpox 09-15-05, 09:02 PM	64. Try to tell the players that you're starting a new campaign, and they have to put away their old lvl 10 characters.
UltimateReality 09-15-05, 09:12 PM	Now it appears as though we have conflicting ideas on min/maxing and I apologize for pidgeon-holing the term.That's okay, I did it too. :P For the most part, I find that people may not have an explicit definition of it -- or even differing definitions -- but when we see it, we know it. My definition of min/maxing is to make the character supremely good at one thing at the cost of many other thingsTo me, that's defined as "being really strategically stupid". :P I find I normally describe powergaming as min/maxing, but with the "max"ing part being much more powerful than normal. Munchkins...well, that's never a complimentary term. There's a few different variations on a definition for that one, but it's not really at stake here. Minimizing all other aspects of your character to Maximize one thing to the best it can get. Hm, that works too I suppose. Although I do just refer to them as "all your eggs in one basket" crowd...very risky. they may not be the best at what they do, but can cope with many situations. I prefer flexibility/adaptability over a one dimensional character.I find overall it leads to increased survivability. Okay, you may not be doing 18bajillion d6 sneak attack damage from some broken PrC combo, but you can find traps, talk your way out of a tight spot, you do decent combat damage, and you're not too shabby at ranged, either. I've had DMs that made a concerted effort to throw a variety of challenges at us, so being adaptable payed off. (One of the reasons I really liked playing wizards: infinite adaptability with spells.)
yellowdingo 09-15-05, 09:31 PM	1.) Gunpowder- I dunno how some of you do it. I introduced it and suddenly their buying tons (at high prices, they used all their resources on this one) and just blowing up their enemies. Just because you get rid of gunpowder or play up its weaknesses, just remember, Leonardo Da Vinci invented the First steam powered Cannon (one mile range limit). That removes the need for gunpowder and pushes technology down the direction of Steam. Imagine if you will the prospect of the British showing up with Steam Cannons and laying siege to the then Warlord George Washington and his ragtag army...
Spike_Fightwicky 09-16-05, 12:01 PM	That's okay, I did it too. :P For the most part, I find that people may not have an explicit definition of it -- or even differing definitions -- but when we see it, we know it. What's odd is that I hadn't even considered any other definitions for min/maxing, since it's so prevalent in the games I usually play. To me, that's defined as "being really strategically stupid". :P I find I normally describe powergaming as min/maxing, but with the "max"ing part being much more powerful than normal. Munchkins...well, that's never a complimentary term. There's a few different variations on a definition for that one, but it's not really at stake here. Welcome to my D&D group :D For example, one of my players, who is one of the people who often switches because they're dissatisfied with their characters (read, the character fails at something, and because of that they lose interest) recently made a number crunched cleric who's main goal was to deal massive amounts of combat damage using buff spells. After their strength was reduced, they lost almost all interest in playing since apart from combat, there was nothing they could do but sponta-cast healing spells. Hm, that works too I suppose. Although I do just refer to them as "all your eggs in one basket" crowd...very risky. See above :P I find overall it leads to increased survivability. Okay, you may not be doing 18bajillion d6 sneak attack damage from some broken PrC combo, but you can find traps, talk your way out of a tight spot, you do decent combat damage, and you're not too shabby at ranged, either. I've had DMs that made a concerted effort to throw a variety of challenges at us, so being adaptable payed off. (One of the reasons I really liked playing wizards: infinite adaptability with spells.) Too true. There are too many people out there that "map" out their entire character from level 1 onward, marking down every item they'll need to make them as good as possible, and when circumstances arise where their "planned" character doesn't anymore, time for a new character. I usually don't play too often because I'm the only steady DM, but when I do play, it's usually a wizard (or a Paladin, but no one likes it when I do because I tend to not accept rewards, or lie, or go along with any deceptive plans, etc... It's great fun and role-playing friendly, but with my group it's mostly just about the XP and GP, so to speak, so there's much moaning and groaning). 65) Giving in to constant whining demands for Mithril/Elven Chain/Adamantine weapons and "Magic Item Shops" to be available in every town.
Sapp 09-16-05, 12:23 PM	66. Serial Deicide.
VirgilCaine 09-16-05, 12:31 PM	Just because you get rid of gunpowder or play up its weaknesses, just remember, Leonardo Da Vinci invented the First steam powered Cannon (one mile range limit). That removes the need for gunpowder and pushes technology down the direction of Steam. Imagine if you will the prospect of the British showing up with Steam Cannons and laying siege to the then Warlord George Washington and his ragtag army... Early air-powered muskets in the 17th century were used to take big game like elk and had a much faster firing rate than gunpowder weapons.
eudas 09-16-05, 02:35 PM	67. trying to design a campaign world by committee. 68. trying to decide what the group should do by committee/democracy (i.e. arguing it out) 68. a. trying to decide what the group should do by committee/democracy on something that needs a short quick decision (e.g. the zombies are coming, should we hack them to pieces or turn them or run or ... JUST SOMEONE MAKE A ****ING DECISION FOR CHRISSAKES) Sorry. Our party has a couple people who can't function inside of an authority structure, and it drives me bonkers to argue everything out and have to convince people of things when we could just have a party leader who DECIDES what to do and get on with it. eudas
UltimateReality 09-16-05, 02:37 PM	After their strength was reduced, they lost almost all interest in playing since apart from combat, there was nothing they could do but sponta-cast healing spells. No ranks in Diplomacy, and no use for any other spell, huh... Too true. There are too many people out there that "map" out their entire character from level 1 onward, marking down every item they'll need to make them as good as possible,Oh, I do up a character build. But I make sure to include only the essentials (I find from about levels 10-12 onward my build is usually left wide-open like a prairie field), and I'm not afraid to change the build to suit the campaign. With wizards, this is especially easy because you can just go into town and pick up a scroll of whatever you need. Pay a smidgin of gold, take a few days to learn it, and you're set to go again. With a cleric or druid: wait a day and reprepare spells. Yeah, I'm fond of full-progression casters. (I love bards too, though. Skill and social monkey combined with Enchantment spells...) 65) Giving in to constant whining demands for Mithril/Elven Chain/Adamantine weapons and "Magic Item Shops" to be available in every town.I made a mistake along these lines once. With these boards as my witness I will never allow fractional saves again. (Or the defense bonus system from UA, but that one was my own idea.) Giving in to constant whining is almost always a mistake. You should definitely spend more than 5 minutes thinking on whether to allow something, and it should definitely not spend that time being distracted by the player in question. 68. trying to decide what the group should do by committee/democracy (i.e. arguing it out) 68. a. trying to decide what the group should do by committee/democracy on something that needs a short quick decision (e.g. the zombies are coming, should we hack them to pieces or turn them or run or ... JUST SOMEONE MAKE A ****ING DECISION FOR CHRISSAKES)You know, I feel for you here. This is our current group, pretty much. We had one sole attempt to use a "party leader". It was even more disastrous than the current situation. The only thing I know of that works is be a DM instead of a player: then the arguing doesn't affect you, and gives you time to pleasantly sip your drink and think of other things you can do with the adventure.
KoboldSlayer 09-16-05, 02:47 PM	Therein lies the problem. Half my group is VERY fickle and difficult to please ("Wild Shape shuts off your magic items? This character's worthless now... I had a player like this. Retired constantly because he "was bored" with the character or it didn't play out as powerful as he thought it should be (which was usually an inflated view of what it was actually designed well enough to do). Way I fixed this: You can switch chars in my campaign, but you come back at average party level (the first time) or lowest party level (every time after that). The first time, you get treasure based on your level. The next time, you get treasure based on your level minus one (the minus 2, minus 3, etc.) I've found that the closer power-gamers get to starting a "naked" character, the less likely they are to retire their current one. (Also keeps them remaining PCs from taking the dead PCs stuff if death and not returning was the way out...which keeps them from getting too much treasure just because one player is being indecisive.)
Spike_Fightwicky 09-16-05, 03:42 PM	No ranks in Diplomacy, and no use for any other spell, huh... Precisely :D Almost all buff spells, most skill points in concentration/spellcraft/knowledge arcana, and the most role playing they'll attempt is: "I roll diplomacy to get him to like me better" Oh, I do up a character build. But I make sure to include only the essentials (I find from about levels 10-12 onward my build is usually left wide-open like a prairie field), and I'm not afraid to change the build to suit the campaign. With wizards, this is especially easy because you can just go into town and pick up a scroll of whatever you need. Pay a smidgin of gold, take a few days to learn it, and you're set to go again. With a cleric or druid: wait a day and reprepare spells. Yeah, I'm fond of full-progression casters. (I love bards too, though. Skill and social monkey combined with Enchantment spells...) I tend to have a vague idea of my character, but one of the players maps out every level, every feat, every bonus, every shield and armor, every magic item and enhancement, every GP that will have to be spent to eventually purchase those magic items, eventual base attack bonus at every level, modified + to attack at every level when fully buffed, etc... When they lost 4 points of strength, their "Equation sheet" of how much bonus the character has to hit became skewed and it took them some 5 minutes to calculate their attack roll bonus. I made a mistake along these lines once. With these boards as my witness I will never allow fractional saves again. (Or the defense bonus system from UA, but that one was my own idea.) Giving in to constant whining is almost always a mistake. You should definitely spend more than 5 minutes thinking on whether to allow something, and it should definitely not spend that time being distracted by the player in question. You know, I feel for you here. This is our current group, pretty much. We had one sole attempt to use a "party leader". It was even more disastrous than the current situation. The only thing I know of that works is be a DM instead of a player: then the arguing doesn't affect you, and gives you time to pleasantly sip your drink and think of other things you can do with the adventure. It happened years ago with the "Magic Store Emporium" type game. After that game, I went on DM hiatus for a while, and came back much stricter with regards to monetary rewards and such. I arrange it so that riches/treasure can be sometimes found simply by looking, paying attention, succeeding a skill check, etc... (you know, non-combat type), but they've NEVER found any of those (they tend not to try it if it doesn't involve combat). They call me stingy, but the previous DM allowed +4 enhancement bonus armor and shields at level 7 since they gave so much treasure that everyone could afford it. Another problem as DM is finding out that someone's ability/spell, etc... is being used wrong (Like the wild shape Druid who couldn't use their magic items) and not coming out as if you're picking on that player. Now I somehow have to find a way to get them to do some actual role-playing instead of the usual dice roling and I'll be on easy street ;) The power gamer in our group's definition of "Role Playing" their character is to use non-combat skills to do stuff (like gather info, knowledge, jump, spellcraft) and not actually "Role Play" the use of those skills (I'll give someone a much circumstance bonus if they try to do more than just "I'll roll gather info to find out where such and such is", like "I'll go ask the bartender if anyone's been through here recently that looks like such and such person") I had a player like this. Retired constantly because he "was bored" with the character or it didn't play out as powerful as he thought it should be (which was usually an inflated view of what it was actually designed well enough to do). Heh, I've got one of each in my game. One gets bored easily, the other gets dissapointed because they expect their character to be good at everything though they build it so that they're always lacking in many areas. We actually house ruled that anyone who dies/switches characters cannot be looted for equipment because the PCs were getting rich off of the foolish risk takers/bored/disatisfied players. 69. The players following the "Leader" character into battle against someone/thing they weren't supposed to fight, and then refusing to run away because it's cowardly. As a DM, almost all you can do is watch and try to make subtle non-meta hints that the players are doomed if they don't run. (With my group, they NEVER withdraw and always fight to the bitter end :mad: )
UltimateReality 09-16-05, 04:38 PM	Precisely :D Almost all buff spells, most skill points in concentration/spellcraft/knowledge arcana, and the most role playing they'll attempt is: "I roll diplomacy to get him to like me better"I have flat out told players that Bluff and Diplomacy require an actual attempt at it. You get modifiers to them based on what you say, so I can't tell you how he reacts if you don't at least give the gist of what you're saying. I can't believe he'd retire a character because he couldn't wait a day to reprepare spells. :rolleyes: (Be sure to never allow the BoED -- it's got a WHOLE LIST of spells that clerics get to spontaneously cast...) I tend to have a vague idea of my character, but one of the players maps out every level, every feat, every bonus, every shield and armor, every magic item and enhancement, every GP that will have to be spent to eventually purchase those magic itemsOh gods, never rely on items! I just plan out feats, class levels, natural ability score increases and maybe sketch out some spells. A wish list of items is nice, but never factored in to the equation! Item availability is completely subject to DM discretion and should never, ever be counted on. the previous DM allowed +4 enhancement bonus armor and shields at level 7We had a DM do that. As the reward for our adventure, the patron gave us all +4 total weapons. This is when I learned that you never carry the same character or campaign over through different DMs. We actually house ruled that anyone who dies/switches characters cannot be looted for equipment because the PCs were getting rich off of the foolish risk takers/bored/disatisfied players.I remember one player made a will and testament for his character...he wanted to pass all his loot on to his next one. The group laughed and buried him intact, IIRC. Or maybe took his stuff. (He wasn't a popular player and didn't last long. Many IG and OOG problems.) 69. The players following the "Leader" character into battle against someone/thing they weren't supposed to fight, and then refusing to run away because it's cowardly.Or, in general, any smart plan getting outshouted by the party's belligerant mule. That really, really annoys me -- as a player AND as a DM.
Norhg 09-16-05, 04:42 PM	69. Hara-kiri.
Spike_Fightwicky 09-16-05, 05:43 PM	I have flat out told players that Bluff and Diplomacy require an actual attempt at it. You get modifiers to them based on what you say, so I can't tell you how he reacts if you don't at least give the gist of what you're saying. I can't believe he'd retire a character because he couldn't wait a day to reprepare spells. :rolleyes: (Be sure to never allow the BoED -- it's got a WHOLE LIST of spells that clerics get to spontaneously cast...) I guess patience is also something he's lacking. We allow the BoED, but he only took Devinve Metamagic out of it, specifically so that he could quicken Righteous Might on his character (he also took Extra Turning TWICE, SPECIFICALLY so that he could use Divine Metamagic twice in one day :rolleyes: ) [/quote]Oh gods, never rely on items! I just plan out feats, class levels, natural ability score increases and maybe sketch out some spells. A wish list of items is nice, but never factored in to the equation! Item availability is completely subject to DM discretion and should never, ever be counted on. We had a DM do that. As the reward for our adventure, the patron gave us all +4 total weapons. This is when I learned that you never carry the same character or campaign over through different DMs.[/quote] Heh, I took over after that DM and it's one of the reasons why some call me a stingy DM. I think the players actually believe that adamantine and mithral equipment is as easy to find as steel, since there's no "Mechanical" reasoning in the DMG (it only says it's rare, but doesn't elaborate, so they assume "Rare" items can be found in any town with a high enough population). Meanwhile they never searched for secret doors in a keep they were infiltrating when one of them actually held a mithril item someone could use. Heaven forbid anything should be done that doesn't directly result in XP or Random Treasure. I remember one player made a will and testament for his character...he wanted to pass all his loot on to his next one. The group laughed and buried him intact, IIRC. Or maybe took his stuff. (He wasn't a popular player and didn't last long. Many IG and OOG problems.) That's Metagame with a capital M.... (unless his new character was a direct descendant/relative, in which case it could story oriented and possibly fun, since the other PCs can loot what they want first) Or, in general, any smart plan getting outshouted by the party's belligerant mule. That really, really annoys me -- as a player AND as a DM. Heh, something I mentioned in another thread, one of our players (more timid and quiet than the rest) had a brilliant idea to get out of paying some bandits posing as the king's officials. The character challenged the leader to a duel and stated that if she wins, they don't pay. If she loses, they pay double. Unfortunately, outshouting happened, and some were annoyed that their characters couldn't share some of the spotlight, so no one went along with it... This is after about an hour of discussing the paladin's code of conduct to deal with these thugs. And speaking of the BoED, my group is all over the "VoP" feat, solely for the mechanics. None of them even bothered looking up what being "Exhalted" means and would likely loose their feat within the first session. Yarrrr....
UltimateReality 09-16-05, 06:09 PM	I guess patience is also something he's lacking. We allow the BoED, but he only took Devinve Metamagic out of it, specifically so that he could quicken Righteous Might on his character (he also took Extra Turning TWICE, SPECIFICALLY so that he could use Divine Metamagic twice in one day :rolleyes: ) :eek: :uh-huh: :OMG! That's all he took?! He can't even min-max/powergame right? Wow...oh wow. Read the preface to the list of Sanctified Spells sometime...and then read the spells themselves.... And speaking of the BoED, my group is all over the "VoP" feat, solely for the mechanics. None of them even bothered looking up what being "Exhalted" means and would likely loose their feat within the first session. Yarrrr....Heheheh. Then you make the feat useless by making a magic item heavy campaign. ;)
Leewei 09-16-05, 06:28 PM	70) Move out of town. 71) Start referring to the campaign's mysterious unnamed travelling oracle of doom as "Steve". 72) Reach the end of the campaign's main story arc. 73) As 72, but fail in the main objective. Doh! 74) Give a blunt critique of the DM's personal and campaign shortcomings. 75) As 74, but get the DM's girlfriend, boyfriend or spouse to join the game and do it for you. 76) As 75, except you're the DM. 77) Invite a new player who "massages" the dice with his bare feet.
Spike_Fightwicky 09-16-05, 06:32 PM	:eek: :uh-huh: :OMG! That's all he took?! He can't even min-max/powergame right? Wow...oh wow. Read the preface to the list of Sanctified Spells sometime...and then read the spells themselves.... Yup, just that one feat :D. And I don't think he realizes how much "Dispel Magic" can destroy his character. I'll have to check out those sanctified spells. When I got the book (and I'm the only one who has it), I mostly wanted to check out any cool new content they had for everyone's favorite divine classes, now it's mostly a "I'm gonna grab this feat!" book... Heheheh. Then you make the feat useless by making a magic item heavy campaign. ;) Heh, that would be mean, then again, serves them right for thinking of the feat only in terms if its mechanics. To be honest, I don't think any of them ever read what an Exhalted character is/is supposed to do. They just saw the feat and thought "Wow! I can make a wicked monk with this!". Unfortunately, my group's the only ones I have to work with. An alternative group has a bunch of people who role play a bit more, but bend the rules as much as possible to make the most broken characters possible. I'm pretty much the designated DM (The only one that doesn't get bored/frustrated with the PCs and can make situations where the min/maxers don't shine at all. I could go on for hours about all the foul ups I've been through :D C'est la vie....
DaveReaves 09-16-05, 06:49 PM	Hey, where did you find the Darned template? That sounds neat. Its in the Book of Naughty Stuff. Right next to the description of the Plane of Heck. 78. Time Travel. Never ends well.
Schmendrick 09-16-05, 08:16 PM	78. Time Travel. Never ends well. Or, begins?
allenchan 09-16-05, 08:31 PM	79. Railroading. 80. Being afraid of everything that's not core simply because you havent taken the time to read/dont fully grasp the rules. Now it appears as though we have conflicting ideas on min/maxing and I apologize for pidgeon-holing the term. To me, what you just described is not a min/maxed character at all. In fact, it looks like a max/maxed character (there's no real "min" if you have good saves, AC, HP, attack, Listen, Spot, etc...) My definition of min/maxing is to make the character supremely good at one thing at the cost of many other things. For example, the Palading who puts all his skill/feats into making a brutal mounted warrior, but can do net to nothing when off his horse or unable to charge. Or a cleric who puts all their resources into making a brutal large melee character, who gets hit by a dispel magic or has to fight in tight quarters and has next to nothing else to do) In short, my definition of Min/Maxing is Minimizing all other aspects of your character to Maximize one thing to the best it can get. For future reference, I'd suggest checking out the Dictionary of Terminology on the General Forum for the 'commonly used' definitions.
Algorithm_X 09-16-05, 09:07 PM	Just because you get rid of gunpowder or play up its weaknesses, just remember, Leonardo Da Vinci invented the First steam powered Cannon (one mile range limit). That removes the need for gunpowder and pushes technology down the direction of Steam. Imagine if you will the prospect of the British showing up with Steam Cannons and laying siege to the then Warlord George Washington and his ragtag army... Watch Steamboy, it is very good anime. Also it is about steam powered war machine and a device very much like a Decanter of Endless Steam. Even if you just had a Decanter of Endless Water, a boiler, with continual heat metal effect you would have a perpetual motion machine that was a mix of magic and steam technology. Also check out Iron Kingdoms Character Guide: Full Metal Fantasy (by Privateer Press) Much goodness*. Disclaimer: Use recklessly at own risk. 81. OOC interpersonal conflict that is not reconcilable. 82. Rumor mongering bitter ex-players who is still friends with everyone else 83. Not calling players on cheating when you catch them.
Omega the Powerfull 09-16-05, 09:22 PM	78. Time Travel. Never ends well. Or, begins? I've tried once to to make something similar to Chrono Trigger... bad idea! Don't try this at home kids!!! :turkey:
Leibel 09-17-05, 10:22 PM	It's been said before but Template madness - no more spell stitched vampiric wererat goblin monk/rogues. Gunpowder is a big one - I do not allow it; It's my personal opinion that you can no longer call it fantasy as soon as a gun shows up - Players get so "ooh-ah" when guns show up they forget that a plain old Longbow in the hands of a ranger or good fighter is superior. And giving into whining - bad idea. Mithral/Elven Chain is supposed to be rare for a reason. And no resurection shop either - death is death. Time for my DM confession 84. Allowing the PC's to hire and equip underlings - this did not go well with me at all - they basically turned their underling's into jr PC's or used them as human shields.
Koga:The ninja trick 09-17-05, 11:30 PM	85: You have an assistant DM. Who's a player. And your girlfriend. Rosa: You're being too cruel towards them Koga! Koga: What is this?! Hyborian age or Candyland d20?! Rosa: *Snerk* Candyland d20.. you're so bad.. Players: *Groan!* Paladin: Kill me! Kill me now!
Hochiu 09-18-05, 01:37 AM	86) Closed minded drunkard bigots. 87) A friends uninterested girlfriend who reluctantly makes a character at said friends urging, creating a half-elf Druid named F***tard.
UltimateReality 09-18-05, 01:43 AM	87) A friends uninterested girlfriend who reluctantly makes a character at said friends urging, creating a half-elf Druid named F***tard. We knew a guy whose gf was so possessive she wouldn't let him play without him. She always made CE rogues and stole from the party. She also got mad when she couldn't charm NPCs or other party members. (Succubus would've been a perfect race for her, and not in the nice way...except she was ugly and dumb, too. I think she eventually ate her poor boyfriend's soul: last we heard they were getting married.)
Koga:The ninja trick 09-18-05, 02:57 AM	86) Closed minded drunkard bigots. 87) A friends uninterested girlfriend who reluctantly makes a character at said friends urging, creating a half-elf Druid named F***tard. The Koga will trade you gaming groups.. :P
Treetrip Danglefoot 09-18-05, 10:02 AM	88. "...and then you wake up."
Psychoticpsymon 09-18-05, 05:29 PM	Kill your pcs?
twad 09-18-05, 09:42 PM	IMC, the rod of wonder is a major artifact with about 40 different possible outcomes. I want to make a list of 100, though. :schemes: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif maybe that would help? http://www.geocities.com/whoisceres2/blodmw.html
Interceptor 09-18-05, 11:01 PM	#89.) Allowing your PC's to have unique "Special Moves". When the monk all-of-a-sudden turns into Vegeta (DBZ) and starts kicking the crap outta everything... well, a Level 5 party looks very outta place. I think this was caused by a Marvel vs. Capcom tournament that we had during one of our many parties.... needless to say, the campaign was a bust. #90.) University schedules. We had an awesome campaign during the summer; now we are lucky even to talk about the game. When I'm done my classes, everyone else has their night classes, and vice versa... no justice.
Spike_Fightwicky 09-19-05, 06:55 AM	91) Houseruling that if more than one person is absent, we don't play that day. After a 3 week stretch where multiple people couldn't make it, the year and a half long game disolved....
thors_valkyrie 09-19-05, 07:14 AM	#92: Players who have watched too much CSI and constantly want to use the heal skill to conduct autopsies on your murder mystery plot victims (and other such nonsense) #93: Undead Infernal Dire Piranha Swarm.
High Octane 09-19-05, 09:58 AM	88. "...and then you wake up." ACTUALLY. USED. ON. ME.
Shadeofhades 09-19-05, 10:34 AM	Hey, where did you find the Darned template? That sounds neat. Aha! I found it, listed in listed in the Player's Guide to Wa'shingrum. I have to wonder, though, how he managed the Monstrous Sock racial requirement for it.
SeidonVanDolf 09-19-05, 02:31 PM	29) Allowing one player in the group to play an alighment opposed to the rest of the group. What is the problem with that? I've heard so many complaints about things like that. People saying that they have a huge problem because two players are playing opposing alignments. I don't get it. I have run several sessions where characters have oppsing alignments and it didn't hinder a thing, in fact in most cases it makes things more interesting. Well, actually, thinking about it, I've never run a game where there weren't oppsing alignments. Maybe it was Chaotic and Lawful or maybe it was Good and Evil but either way they opposed. You know what the trick to making the Paladin of Heironeous and the Blackguard of Hextor work together is? The same thing that makes the Harper who worships Tymora and the Cleric Bane worshipping Zhentish agent work together. A common goal. Harpers and Zhentarim are anything but allies and just being a member of the two factions would normally make them enemies but if you give them something to work against together then things get interesting. What do they both hate? The Cult of the Dragon for one and neither care much for Thay either. What does Hextor and Heironeous both dislike? Chaos for a start. There will be bickering and arguements from both or they aren't playing their characters but it doesn't mean they can't get along. It just takes a little work from the DM and the players have to understand that if they don't work together at least a little then there can be no campaign. A Cleric of Bane, a Rogue of Cyric and a Wizard of Mystra would work together if the world were about to be conquered by an evil Lich but for three very different reasons. The DM just needs to be aware of these different motivations. The Cleric of Bane doesn't want to see the world ruled by anyone but the Lord of Tyranny himself and the minions He appoints. The Rogue of Cyric doesn't believe anyone is fit to rule Toril except The Prince of Lies, the Black Sun, and no Lich is worthy of such a role. He might even view this as some obscure quest from his Lord even if it isn't. And Mystra is a champion of good though she accepts that evil must exist and her follower may see it as his place to be the good that opposes such evil uses of the Weave. And of course not everyone needs a divine entity to motivate them. Fame, Glory, Honor, Title and even the good old Coin are all typically adequate motivators. I think that sometimes people just get too caught up in that whole good/evil/law/chaos thing and forget that they all coexist in the game world everyday all around and I assure you they all don't have clubs or groupies that only allow in other like-aligned people. Alignments are just guidelines after all. It isn't a statement of how you should play your character to the letter. So that's my contribution: #??) When players or gamemasters hold to the alignment discriptions like words from the holy grail and become so bloody unwavering that the game be damned but they are going to play their character exactly the way the book describes their alignment.
Illion the Red 09-19-05, 03:57 PM	What is the problem with that? I've heard so many complaints about things like that. People saying that they have a huge problem because two players are playing opposing alignments. I don't get it. I have run several sessions where characters have oppsing alignments and it didn't hinder a thing, in fact in most cases it makes things more interesting. Well, actually, thinking about it, I've never run a game where there weren't oppsing alignments. Maybe it was Chaotic and Lawful or maybe it was Good and Evil but either way they opposed. Chaotic/Lawful isn't the axis I was concerned with, but I did not specify, so you got me there. Any time you have Players with opposites, conflict will result if they play their opposites properly. The Chaotic Evil Rouge who wants to do nothing but steal from other party members works against the core construct of the D&D party. If you find that you enjoy that kind of game, more power to ya. It's never worked in my experience and has ruined more than one campaign.
D&D_Madness 5000 09-19-05, 06:11 PM	#95.) Give the most powerful player 2 bags of holding #96.) Give the least powerful player Chaotic Evil Vorpal BBEG sword of doom. Unless he's a spellcaster or rogue. In which case, crossbow:devil: #96.) Both:devil::devil::devil:
Arrowhen 09-19-05, 07:25 PM	97.) The Deck of Many Tarrasques.
Lina_Inverse 09-19-05, 09:55 PM	98) saying "im running a low magic game" then makeing every monsters horde entirely magic items that can only be used by there race, oh magic item creation feats are banned too. 99) running a low magic caimpaign by the normal rules otherwise. 100) saying that anything your cats do to minis/dice affects the game........
Starlight Knight 09-20-05, 01:37 AM	32) Deck of Many Things (someone had to say it) While we're at it, that portal they found at low level, yea it leads to Raven Loft.
Starlight Knight 09-20-05, 01:56 AM	The easiest way for a party to mess up a game is to wait until you tell them about the troubles going on in the north, and the great treasure awaiting someone brave enough to go and they decide to find out what's going on in the south instead. Messing up the party is easy, any wish spell can be turned around. You know that secret door that leads to the mage's laboratory? It just happened to be hidden in the wall at the bottom of the spiked pit the rogue in the group found and avoided. Two words: Kender mage. Remember that building you burned to the ground? Guess which God had a shrine in there.
DraconsNighthawk 09-20-05, 03:41 AM	Allowing any player to play a psion kobold. Just no. Say no to psion kobolds.
Vaelan 09-20-05, 03:47 AM	Allowing any player to play a psion kobold. Just no. Say no to psion kobolds. By which he actually means "anything with Shapechange, the Metamorphic Transfer feat, or the Assume Supernatural Ability feat".
Solidcobra 09-20-05, 05:49 AM	No, he meant psions. ^_^ Though yeah, that too. Don't allow that stuff or psions, really, unless you want your game to turn into a munchfest of epic proportions.
Nom 09-20-05, 08:29 AM	The Chaotic Evil Rouge ...103: Allowing a red powder for colouring cheeks as a PC.
not Yoda 09-20-05, 08:46 AM	104: Trying to run an Evil campaign thinking the players will self-motivate into dastardly deeds and finding out that don't do evil just obnoxious.
digoraccoon 09-20-05, 08:49 AM	I've tried once to to make something similar to Chrono Trigger... bad idea! Don't try this at home kids!!! Too late, tried it once in collage. Party kept getting paranoid about the time gates and the whole thing dissolved when they reached 1980 America. :D Lasted 3 sessions. 105. Allowing Care Bears into your D&D game :uh-huh: (Shortly after that we declared our DM was nuts).
Morka 09-20-05, 09:39 AM	106. A paladin PC against baby orcs.
hollow_ghost 09-27-05, 09:32 PM	88. "...and then you wake up." I don't get it... You know that secret door that leads to the mage's laboratory? It just happened to be hidden in the wall at the bottom of the spiked pit the rogue in the group found and avoided. Remember that building you burned to the ground? Guess which God had a shrine in there. :rofl: Two words: Kender mage. :bounce: :dancin:
Sangredwarf89 10-27-05, 05:51 PM	ways to ruin a campain 1. wave a wand when you dont know what it does 2. insult a band of drunken dwarfs 3. make a petty jocular insult to some snooty elves 4. playin wit 2 pcs that hate each other
Oof GruumshNoLike 10-27-05, 06:16 PM	7.) Telling your players that as long as you meet the pre reqs, I don't care what book it's from, you can play it. 8.) Assinating random people because you "feel" like it.... and it's a paladin (note, players way to ruin a campaign) 9.) Playing without caffeine. I second ALL of these! Been there, cried over that.
Oof GruumshNoLike 10-27-05, 06:49 PM	I think I've run into every single problem above just in my current campaign! Please add: #2759) Allowing a Player-modded class without extensive review of the mod beforehand. (How could they NOT be tempted to "munchkin"?) #5932) Allowing PCs to kill each other without consequences. (It turns into a contest to see who can #@*% who the most/quickest.) #9034) Allowing a player created God (You end up with "My God wouldn't do/say/allow that!)
BoringInfoGuy 10-27-05, 07:21 PM	114: Refuse to tell the players what you have in mind for a new campaign before they show up. 115: Keep throwing out rules variations randomly during the character creation process. 116: Book of Unearthed Arcana. 117: The moment that the players get really into the plot, suddenly move the plot in a whole new direction. Then repeat when they get into the new plot. 118: Have something other than the players kill the main villian. 119: Keep throwing out encounters that your players are supposed to run from. (Becuase that's what every player wants, right?) 120: Ignore player feedback. 121: Let your players know what module you are running, cause some jerk will just have to go out and buy it. 122: Grant special powers to players.
AlanBruce 10-27-05, 07:21 PM	Create Uber-powerful NPC that just happens to meet the party (levels 3-5). Never dies, enjoys slaughtering an entire orc tribe single-handedly in front of annoyed PCs who are tired of travelling with him because he is so damn Uber. But alas, when the PCs are in grave danger, he is nowhere to be found.
tiercel 10-27-05, 09:19 PM	While we're at it, that portal they found at low level, yea it leads to Raven Loft.Heh. I threw my PCs into Ravenloft at 4th level. (Heck, I threw them onto the Plane of Shadow at 2nd level, which was a wakeup call -- other planes of existence are actually scary and cool when you are a lowbie.) On the other hand, if you are going to throw PCs into Ravenloft, low level is a good time to do it -- when they still have the proper fear instinct to know when to run away, and when they don't have huge bags of magical goodies that might be a problem for the campaign setting (since Ravenloft is, typically, lower-than-normal magic for D&D). I also have (very limited) gunpowder in my games. I think that if you actually stick to DMG guidelines for Renaissance weaponry, gunpowder won't break your game. (Heck, early firearms aren't really that special, AND take a feat to use without sucking up a -4 nonproficiency penalty.) Gunpowder is just another alchemical/pseudomagical substance, and big barrels of gunpowder aren't that much worse than big barrels of alchemist's fire. That doesn't mean that the dwarves in my world aren't jealous guardians of its manufacture... 115. Allowing a sudden, no-holds-barred infusion of non-Core material before you are fully familiar with it. Not only are you as a DM pretty likely to make, or allow, bad interpretations of what you can do with the new rules/spells/feats/PrCs, but you're not likely to be able to come up with an appropriate challenge for a wild new set of abilities. (That, and your players will spend half their times shopping for new goodies in their books rather than playing the dang game.) 116. Creating a BBEG who is intrinsically important to the storyline of the entire campaign, and allowing him to confront the PCs before said storyline is done. If you have to "magically rescue" the BBEG, your players will be rightfully frustrated; if you fail to do so, your storyline goes up in smoke. Additionally, with enough contacts, sooner or later the PCs will get lucky and off the BBEG, or the BBEG will get lucky and TPK the PCs. 117. Anything involving any form or modified version of the Deck of Many Things. Seriously. This thing probably deserves even more mentions. 118. Critical failure on your Common Sense skill. If a player attempts a tactic that leads to infinite amounts of power, just say no before it even starts. It's all well and good to share a laugh or a groan about the technical possibility of Pun-Pun or infinite wishes from planar binding efreets, but someone who actually tries to bring something like this into the game probably deserves to be smacked on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper ("No! Bad player! Bad player!"), drenched in Mountain Dew (or caffeinated beverage of choice), or generally pelted with scorn and dice (though possibly not those Dwarven Metal dice, those things do lethal damage).
cheseboy 10-27-05, 10:40 PM	...117. Anything involving any form or modified version of the Deck of Many Things. Seriously. This thing probably deserves even more mentions.... What is wrong with it anyway? It doesn't seem capable of causing chaos on the scale that is being insinuated. I have never used it and it seems like a pretty cool item to me. Please enlighten me before I make a huge mistake.
memnochraphy 10-27-05, 10:43 PM	For the longest time I ruined my own games. How you ask? I thought my games should be taken seriously. Little did I understand that I am better at comedy games that any other type. My players loved the few jokes I had in game that they tried to make the whole game one big chuckle. I gat mad and threw a temper tantrum. Then after months it finally dawned on me. The players have a right to choose their game as well. So now I run games with planty of comedy.
Shaitan0.2beta 10-27-05, 11:17 PM	about teh deck. Have you watched any episode of futurama where they use some sort of thingumajigger gizmo to see teh outcome of a "what if" scenario? Do a session like that, say, a dream or an illusion, doesn't matter if you tell the PCs or not, and give them the deck of many things. You'll see. It creates way too much difference between players that most of the time - there is no playing afther using it.
trollbill 10-28-05, 10:39 AM	119) Decide that it doesn’t make sense for Clerics to automatically know every knew spell that comes out, so your solution is to make Clerics learn spells just like Wizards do (with the same minimal starting limitations) in a campaign that is notorious for how hard it is for Wizards to get new spells. 120) Create a neat enchanted magical maze trap from a hollow metal sphere 10-feet in diameter with foot thick sides, decide to make it out of adamantium so the PCs can’t easily bypass it by breaking out, then expect the PCs to just leave that much adamantium lying around in the dungeon after they escape it. 121) Allowing an immature player to convince you he can play a character that has a high potential for party disruption if not played maturely. Then assume that once it becomes obvious it isn’t working that he will learn from this and grow up rather than cause the group to implode. 122) Start a ‘shared worlds’ campaign that rotates DMs with each new adventure but don’t set up any firm guidelines for treasure dispensing and include at least one player who takes everything that happens to his characters personally and has no compunctions about ‘payback’ when it is his turn to DM. 123) Have a DM who has a pet ‘player’ whose PC’s personal power always grossly outstrips the rest of the party combined. 124) Try to force feed a group of Roll-players to Role-play. 125) Try to force feed a group of Role-players to Roll-play. 126) Decide that since you don’t get to choose your birth race in real life you shouldn’t in D&D, so you create a random racial table that allows some players to start the game as dragons and werebears while others start as kobolds and goblins (but with no EL adjustment). 127) Decide that racial EL adjustments are just too complicated and aren’t worth it, so you ignore them. 128) Decide that fairness to the individual outweighs the fun of the group.
Secrets Untold 10-29-05, 10:00 AM	Oi! Change the tiltle! It's way more than 25 great ways! Erm...Sorry about the yelling 129) Allow players who have the DM guide draw which ever card they want from the Deck of Many Things if the can name the card. 130) Have all NPCs speak with an accent so strong that none of the players understand them. (Like "weh bruing teh cwates" for "we bring the crates")
pmurray@bigpond.com 10-29-05, 05:18 PM	My definition of min/maxing is to make the character supremely good at one thing at the cost of many other things. Diito. My understanding is that a min/maxed character is one where you point-buy minimums in abilities in order to max out other abilities. Clerics with Wiz 18, Int 6 - that sort of thing.
hollow_ghost 11-08-05, 06:25 PM	131) rain, homework, projects. Let me explain: the supposed last session, it rains and everyone bikes. On the strike day from school, we have tons of homework and project. I never got to conclude the campaign...
WandererTheLost 11-10-05, 02:52 PM	118. Critical failure on your Common Sense skill. If a player attempts a tactic that leads to infinite amounts of power, just say no before it even starts. It's all well and good to share a laugh or a groan about the technical possibility of Pun-Pun or infinite wishes from planar binding efreets, but someone who actually tries to bring something like this into the game probably deserves to be smacked on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper ("No! Bad player! Bad player!"), drenched in Mountain Dew (or caffeinated beverage of choice), or generally pelted with scorn and dice (though possibly not those Dwarven Metal dice, those things do lethal damage). CAFFEINE ABUSE!
Soepkommetje 11-11-05, 08:20 AM	132) "Suddenly a Dragon pops out!" 133) Letting an indecisive player play a shifter in a high-level campaign. Seriously, you WILL get a headache from him changing shape *every round* each combat.. and oftentimes in between
fuzzeymonk 11-11-05, 08:39 AM	134) Allowing Pcs to vs Pcs. three people threatend to quit after we killed him, the group was only 4 players, the DM wasn't stupid, its just that the Pc was, he suggested it.
Effling 11-11-05, 03:25 PM	No, he meant psions. ^_^ Though yeah, that too. Don't allow that stuff or psions, really, unless you want your game to turn into a munchfest of epic proportions. No, he didn't meant psions in general. He was referring to the mighty Pun-Pun, a Character Optimization boards excercise that began as a level 12 Kobold Egoist, who, through the metamorphic transfer feat and a silly creature in Serpent Kingdoms could get every single ability any creature has in the entire game. Go see the thread, it shouldn't be hard to find. And just for the record, Psionics aren't overpowered any more druids or clerics are; see the Psionics board threads for support for that argument. Having said that, let's not turn this into a psionics-ruins-everything argument.
Jesper 11-11-05, 04:34 PM	in a high level campain give the players the sav spe book and say "make your own race and enjoy" (compleatly made game unbalanced)
Fenrisulven 11-11-05, 04:47 PM	Blackrazor, Mournblade, Stormbringer, Tyrfing.