Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Callista 09-18-05, 05:42 PM	(Note: Originally posted this on the BoVD forums, then thought: Hey, wait, this isn't too mature for the DM's forum; I'll just post it there too for more replies. So hopefully you will forgive my cross-post faux pas.) I'd like help designing a couple of NPCs who have been the victims of some very evil actions. The NPCs in question started out as an elf fighter and half-elf bard, both Good-aligned to start out with (this could've changed; read on), brother and sister. Three thousand years ago, they crossed paths with my BBEG. He killed them and trapped their souls inside an orb. During these three thousand years, the two NPCs went through what is basically repeated nightmares, only as real as they would be if they took place in a real plane. Generally, they wouldn't know whether these nightmares are real or not; but they might, every once in a while, remember what really happened to them. The purpose behind this whole thing? Just plain revenge, really. You don't have to have much more motive when you're a newly-made lich who just got yourself killed by a couple of do-gooders. The original mental state of the two NPCs: The fighter (male) generally tends to be matter-of-fact and very protective of his sister. She's generally a carefree sort; but she has suffered from amnesia in the past and if any of the memories which triggered the amnesia come back, she may be in trouble. The orb will release their souls if broken; but they are going to refuse to go to the afterlife until the creature that imprisoned them is slain once and for all. Chances are, the party will have a couple of deranged ghosts following them around. If the orb isn't broken, and a PC touches it, I will have a (mid-level) will save to avoid getting sucked in (this isn't actually a death effect; the body is still alive in the way that it is when someone goes to the astral plane). In that case, the PC will be transported to the same nightmare as the NPCs and have a chance to communicate with them. My questions: If my PCs meet these two NPCs, they will have to get information out of them. What are these NPCs like after three centuries of imprisonment? Do they still have any sanity left? How should I RP them? Should they attack the PCs, even if the PCs free them? If a single PC touches the orb and gets pulled into the nightmare/illusion/whatever, then what should it be like? In this case, the PC will almost certainly be attacked by the two NPCs, since they'll think he's just another nightmare creature... of course, if they're "killed", they'll come right back, since they're already dead and can't be killed again (if that makes any sense). So I need a reason for them to talk to whatever PC they come into contact with... Ideas?
Callista 09-18-05, 05:44 PM	This is a reply to my post, from the BOVD forum. If my PCs meet these two NPCs, they will have to get information out of them. What are these NPCs like after three centuries of imprisonment? Do they still have any sanity left? How should I RP them? Should they attack the PCs, even if the PCs free them? Well, after three millenia living in eternal torment, you can imagine that their minds will either be completely codependent on the hellish environment (Releasing them would be like pulling the plug on a ventilator) or their minds will have completely collapsed in on themselves and reduced them to gibbering blobs. The hellish would find themselves very angry and would attack the PCs, probably half-begging them to put them back. The blobs would be complete vegetables huggled in the fetal position constantly. If a single PC touches the orb and gets pulled into the nightmare/illusion/whatever, then what should it be like? In this case, the PC will almost certainly be attacked by the two NPCs, since they'll think he's just another nightmare creature... of course, if they're "killed", they'll come right back, since they're already dead and can't be killed again (if that makes any sense). So I need a reason for them to talk to whatever PC they come into contact with... Ideas? If they've spent 3000 years in the environment, they can probably tell what's foreign to it quite easily. Therefore, they will probably start pumping the PC for information on the way out, rather than attack them.
Callista 09-18-05, 05:44 PM	*nods* I pretty much thought that too... they'd be totally insane. Thing is, I need some way for the PCs to get information from them. (They know what the lich's phylactery looks like). "Insane" gives you more options than just the typical "gibbering madman" approach, though, which is why I'm asking; people who go through extremely traumatic events can get everything from multiple personality disorder to post-traumatic stress syndrome to amnesia to paranoia or even Stockholm syndrome... Makes me wish I could reduce that 3,000 year time span; but I can't--it's already well-established. Another idea I've thought of is that you might actually get used to the nightmares. The idea originally came from my own tendency to have nightmares just about every night; and I've got used to them myself. You still get the adrenaline rush and all that, but generally you know, hey, it's just a dream; and sometimes you can wake yourself up or kill whatever monster's chasing you. Whether that would help you over centuries, though, is a completely different story. Some sort of insanity would have developed, regardless. Yeah, can you tell I'm secretly hoping a PC will get sucked in? Gives me an excuse to see how my friends react to the stuff that comes from my own twisted subconscious... the one where my city gets hit by the Black Plague is especially fun.
Soel Griffin 09-18-05, 06:00 PM	In 3,000 years, I would imagine that some part of their subconscious would have established a sort of "warm place," a mental safehaven/fantasy to escape to. This could be like a real sort of refuge inside the gemworld, and the only place that might resemble any past hopes and dreams the two had. Also would be a great place for the pcs to duck for cover, from the obviously hellish surroundings that the nightmares have imposed on the two entrapped souls. I think of it as their consciousness expanding to fill/make up the "world" inside the gem, and the pcs taking a step inside...I would also have the two's image of themselves as being completely foreign from what they were, taking "physical" characteristics from the suffering. This has changed them in their forms as well, perhaps...Maybe the only real recognition comes when the pcs venture to the above "warm place," although the versions of the two the pcs encounter here might not be the actual original two, but their unrealized ('cept for here,) idyllic versions.
ShadowDragon8685 09-18-05, 06:20 PM	People can react very differently to the same tramautic stress situation. Personally, I'd say make the girl a barely-responsive shivering wreck, terrified and afraid, and the boy an insanely violent psychopath that does his utterbest to OMGWTFBBQ PWN anyone who even THINKS about looking funny at his sister. The trick? The girl has the info you need.
Callista 09-19-05, 07:58 AM	I'm thinking about multiple personalities at this point... that could be interesting. I don't know how to work it, though, and it shouldn't be cliched. Darnit, where's a good web site on psychology when you need one??
MidnightLightning 09-19-05, 08:48 AM	3000 years? Let's look at that in perspective, shall we? A person in the real world who has been trapped for 3000 years would have originally been from around 1000 BC; the time of Roman empires, chariots, and whatnot. So, there would be a massive technology and sociological jump, and possibly language, even if they "woke up" in the same country they were trapped in. The PC's armor, appearance, and stature will all be foreign (the trapped people will probably think they PCs are very tall). And, since this is D&D, I'm guessing the timeline for where the PCs are at right now is about equivilant to the real world's 1400s (castles and knights and kings, oh my). Which would put these trapped souls as originating in 2600 BC! You might even be talking about cavemen, or at least nomadic wanderers (think the anglo-saxon nomadic tribes and the celtic horde). These souls would have grown up with that lifestyle or the gameworld equivilant. The 3000 years may have warped them a bit, but their past culture will make anotehr shock they'll have to get over.
Aladdar 09-19-05, 11:17 AM	I'd say go with the multiple personalities, take some of the ideas from Golem in LoTR and have the personalities argue with each other about giving the information. Develop maybe 5 different personalities for both of them depending on if they're threatened, feel afraid, feel violent, etc...
Millennium 09-19-05, 02:06 PM	I'm going with the 'gibbering wreck' theory myself. Getting them out of this state is going to require magical means, and even that may no longer be enough. What I would recommend is that the PCs have some way they can get in and out of the dreamscape, but not necessarily in a way that they could take anyone with them. They go into the orb and find these two, but can't communicate with them. They have to leave and find a way to heal the victims before getting the information out of them. The PCs find out that that truly healing the victims is impossible (or way beyond their reach, at the absolute least), but they might be able to get them lucid enough to say a few words. In the end, after defeating the lich, they have to go back and release the the victims' souls to the afterlife. This should be a bittersweet but ultimately fulfilling ending.
Callista 09-19-05, 03:09 PM	Re. Language Barrier: No problem. The party bard has comprehend languages, and I'd allow intelligence checks... said bard knows ten languages already to compare with, so even a dialect 3000 years out of date should be something he can make sense of, kind of the way I can make a little sense of Latin just because I know both English and German. Now add eight more languages... yeh, not a problem. Technology, I'd say there wouldn't be too much difference; maybe they use steel swords and crossbows now, but the basic strategy is the same. Magic might've changed, but neither NPC is a wizard, so no prob there. The biggest cultural thing is that they're both members of a civilization which was defeated and destroyed 50 years after they were killed... :) The PCs find out that that truly healing the victims is impossible (or way beyond their reach, at the absolute least), but they might be able to get them lucid enough to say a few words. In the end, after defeating the lich, they have to go back and release the the victims' souls to the afterlife. This should be a bittersweet but ultimately fulfilling ending.Exactly the effect I'm going for. If I have the CRs right, I'll probably end up with a couple of dead PCs near the end of the campaign; so they might well end up accompanying the NPCs to the afterlife and witnessing the transformation back to normalcy for the two of them. (I subscribe to the idea that Good-aligned afterlives do not contain things like insanity or disease.)
Morka 09-19-05, 04:05 PM	Do you have any precise idea of what could be this nightmare? Perhaps some kind of tainted jungle, a mix of The Twisted Wood (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20021104x) and The Crawling Jungle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030414x). Add any kind of fiendish animal and plant creatures. After living 3000 years in that and being killed 1000 times by demoniac creatures, how should they think? Well, the fighter male could easily lost his sanity and become more feral than all those fiendish animals; only his sister could calm him. On the other hand, the female bard could have taken shelter in her toughts, and continually recite old poetry. So what happen if a PC enter their nightmare? Are they likely to mistake a normal-looking humanoid for a fiendish animal? I don't think so. I think the PC will be attacked by some kind of demonic creature, to be saved by the two NPCs. If the PCs question them, the male fighter will answer monosyllabic answers, and the female bard will answer strange poetry, that won't be easy to understand. What I mean is they will try to save him, but won't believe this adventurer will be able to help them. And what happen if the PCs break the orb? Suddenly, they have no more feral animal stalking them, hiding in entangling trees. The fighter should slowly open himself, while the bard should keep on reciting her poetry since it's all she has done in all her life. All that until the PCs ask them who did it to them. Only them the possibility of a vengeance should cross their mind. As a side note, I think it shouldn't be easy to break the orb. Making it Adamantite wouldn't be enough, it should be DR 20/Good & Magic, or something like that. And when it'll finally break, have a blast of negative energy affect everyone in the area, perhaps the equivalent of an Unholy Blight.
Callista 09-20-05, 08:53 AM	Hmm, you're right; having all the nightmares in the same "environment" would help. I was thinking to switch things around constantly--maybe every three or four minutes game-time--to different settings, kind of the way real dreams are rather short. But switching it around constantly would probably have resulted in NPCs who would probably try killing first and asking later...
gleep 09-20-05, 09:32 AM	Honestly, the best answer to your questions is "whatever you want." The human mind is surprisingly resiliant. It can, with enough exposure, handle just about anything. And those two have had plenty of exposure. However, getting into the realities of psychological torture (the description of the orb's effect is close to sleep and sensory deprivation) is meaningless. The two NPCs are a) not human, and b) not like anything in human society. They mythos of D&D is a combination of modern thought with modern interpretations of fantastic elements. The mental composure of a D&D NPC is unlike anything that has occurred in our own present society, much less our ancient past. So don't worry about it too much. Figure out what would have the best effect on your PCs. What would the players enjoy interracting with the most? Once you know that, you can easily reverse engineer the reasons. In the meantime, there's plenty of game mechanics to help you out. A ghosts's horrific appearance and frightful moan, for example, are great for presenting what has occurred to the two. Toss in a phantasmal killer effect on the orb for the PC to experience when it is touched (and, if you're feeling particularly nice, change the results to unconciousness/subdual). In fact, one of the best ways to present a ghost is to not explain anything. Let the characters (and the players) come to their own conclusions. It's one of the funnest things about DMing. :) Instead, describe the effects. The results. The situation. Let them freak themselves out. You'll know you're doing a good job when you describe the pervasive chill in the air and you see a player shiver. :D --gleep
Soel Griffin 09-21-05, 02:26 AM	In fact, one of the best ways to present a ghost is to not explain anything. Let the characters (and the players) come to their own conclusions. It's one of the funnest things about DMing. :) Instead, describe the effects. The results. The situation. Let them freak themselves out. You'll know you're doing a good job when you describe the pervasive chill in the air and you see a player shiver. Well said, Gleep! Really good advice!