Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BigBigSpiritmonger 09-11-05, 10:08 PM	Ok... I'm a DM of a group that's been playing a decent amount of time. They are all lvls 6-8. We have a Cleric/Sorcerer, a Sorcerer, a Fighter, and a Ranger/Rogue. It used to be really fun but it has gotten really boring lately for me.. and 3/4 of the players. Problems: 1) The Cleric/Sorcerer, Kudro, has a magical item I let him buy, but very very deeply regret it. It is the Ring of Dragonshape from the Draconomicon... Pretty much he can turn into a dragon for 1 hr/day. Every time they are losing he turns into a dragon and owns everything. Big bad guy? Poof. Dragon burns him black. Any sort of terrain obstacle/barrier? Poof. Dragon, everyone gets on his back and he flies over it... It's hard to make any challenges for the players. I'm not the only one aggravated by this. The other three players all get mad at him when he does it because they want to get part of the action too, not just him owning everything. 2) They want to rest every other encounter. They fight and if anyone gets hurt they want to sleep to get spells and health back. I tell the cleric(who is the one who usually wants to sleep) "Why don't you use healing spells?" and he just says it will waste a spell for the day. I have things come while they sleep, but the Ranger always sets up an alarm spell, so they are ready when it arrives. 3) Everytime I try to create encounters where they can't do either of the above, they just flee, and give up on the encounter. Or they try to hide and attack from there. Also, the cleric always interupts me when I try to do anything, trying to counteract it by looking up rules. I know what I'm doing is right, but he always slows the game way down to double check every thing I do. He argues with me over every single rule. Also, he will forget something, but then later after the consequence has already happened, he tries to change it by saying he forgot whatever. Ex: They are fighting, and he is attacked. He gets hit for something like 44 dmg by this huge guy. Then, one round later, he remembers that he had his Ring of Protection +1 on. It would have missed had he had 1 more AC. I say that it's too bad, he forgot and it's over. He says "Well I was wearing it when it happened, so in game it automatically applies." So pretty much all the problems lie on one player. I don't wanna like, kick him out though, he's my good friend. I really don't know what to do... I would be very thankful for any help from more experienced DMs. Thanks, Ryan
bholdr_mage 09-11-05, 10:49 PM	Wow. Those are some huge problems. First of all, let's discuss friends. If they are a friend at all, they will listen to your concerns. Talk about how they are disrupting the game and show them how much you put into it. They should listen to you and try to help solve the problem. I had a similar situation where in the Eberron campaign setting before the errata, someone was using the talenta sharash as printed, an exotic weapon, reach, can be used as a trip weapon, 1d10 damage, and a X4 MULTIPLIER with a 19/20 threat range. Broken as all get out. However, the players disagreed with me that it was misprinted and broken because they had to burn a feat to use it. So...I used thier own weapon against them. Had an NPC escape a rather easy battle to report to his mentors about the weapon and then the main villan sent in sentries with the sharash. 3 players out of 6 died that encounter. However they didn't learn the lesson. We went through 8 characters that game before they realized, hey...maybe the DM is right. So there's an idea. Fight fire with fire and show that all that's left is carnage. At this point it becomes a game about statistics and initiative. If the players think it's balanced to fight with a dragon at their side, give them a dragon to fight so it's equal. They are very territorial ya know. Another idea is to LET THEM THROUGH with all of their magical fun. That's exactly how I solved my problem. They slaughtered all the NPC's in a complex in like two and a half-hours. Then I said, "OK guys, tha'ts all I have this week-yeah those half-demon toad frogs didn't stand a chance against your super item, maybe next week the Rakshasa planet can make a stand for another hour or so." I'm being very sarcastic there, but surely you understand that by cutting game time short every week, the players should come to you and wonder whats wrong if they really like playing. You could always steal the ring, but that normally peeves people off. I.E. Rogue on the street pocketing things. Another deal is, sometimes there are just friends you can do certain things with. I lived with a good friend who DMed games and he was absolutely terrible as a DM. Playing video games with him was a blast though. Look at the DMG 2 for further ideas about how to guess your character's playing styles. Hopefully my suggestions have helped. Good Luck. Oh, one other thing, you COULD plead with them to start another game-one in a different setting.
bholdr_mage 09-11-05, 10:58 PM	Your cleric? He's what's called a rule's lawyer. Tell him it's your game and he is ruining the fun for everyone. If he has a problem, tell him to come to you at the end of the game-all other times your the DM and what you say goes. It's harsh I know, but who's running the game here. You or him? If you do make a mistake, admit it. But making mistakes is a good way to learn so those mistakes won't happen again. Your human. Your inclined to make mistakes. In fact, don't let the DMG out during the game. Keep it a Players handbook only session. Have your player set down and write out all variations of his AC, attack with spells and what ever. Now you copy it. If he whines about, oh well I should have done that, or added this, say, "tough." You should have dealt with it prior to the encounter. Or add it in now. It will be calculated in from this point on, or until the duration of the spell ends. That may be harsh too, but hey, you've got billions of other things to remeber like monsters and story. Why should you baby sit them and let them off the hook when they aren't paying attention to details?
cmrscorpio 09-11-05, 11:33 PM	1) The Cleric/Sorcerer, Kudro, has a magical item I let him buy, but very very deeply regret it. It is the Ring of Dragonshape from the Draconomicon... Pretty much he can turn into a dragon for 1 hr/day. Every time they are losing he turns into a dragon and owns everything. Big bad guy? Poof. Dragon burns him black. Any sort of terrain obstacle/barrier? Poof. Dragon, everyone gets on his back and he flies over it... It's hard to make any challenges for the players. I'm not the only one aggravated by this. The other three players all get mad at him when he does it because they want to get part of the action too, not just him owning everything. 2) They want to rest every other encounter. They fight and if anyone gets hurt they want to sleep to get spells and health back. I tell the cleric(who is the one who usually wants to sleep) "Why don't you use healing spells?" and he just says it will waste a spell for the day. I have things come while they sleep, but the Ranger always sets up an alarm spell, so they are ready when it arrives. 3) Everytime I try to create encounters where they can't do either of the above, they just flee, and give up on the encounter. Or they try to hide and attack from there. Also, the cleric always interupts me when I try to do anything, trying to counteract it by looking up rules. I know what I'm doing is right, but he always slows the game way down to double check every thing I do. He argues with me over every single rule. Also, he will forget something, but then later after the consequence has already happened, he tries to change it by saying he forgot whatever. Ex: They are fighting, and he is attacked. He gets hit for something like 44 dmg by this huge guy. Then, one round later, he remembers that he had his Ring of Protection +1 on. It would have missed had he had 1 more AC. I say that it's too bad, he forgot and it's over. He says "Well I was wearing it when it happened, so in game it automatically applies." So pretty much all the problems lie on one player. I don't wanna like, kick him out though, he's my good friend. I really don't know what to do... Here's my :twocents: 1) The ring functions as polymorph, so your PC can't use breath-weapons. Nor can the PC use any of the dragon's other spell-like or supernatural abilities. 2) It doesn't matter that the PCs are ready when they get attacked during their rest. The important part is that their rest gets interrupted. If their rest is interrupted, then the casters must restart their rest in order to get their spells. If the PCs stop after each encounter, set up camp, and rest for a full day, then they can *expect* to get their rest interrupted if they are resting in a dangerous spot, such as Room 2 of the BBEG's fortress, then they deserve to be attacked every 20 minutes or so, with each successive attack being stronger than the last, or (if the BBEG has an Int higher than 6) *all* of the guards should be sent to take care of the problem after the 2nd troupe of guards sent to investigate doesn't return. 3a) You are DM, your word is law. If the PC forgets that he has something that would've saved him from damage, then it is his problem, not yours. He should have thought of that at the time. His penalties for forgetting should remain in effect. 3b) As far pausing the game to look up rules, the player does not have the power to do that. Tell him that during a break or after the game he is welcome to bring up any issues he may has, but during the game is not the time to argue against the DM. 3c) And finally, when the PCs decide to flee and hide, then attack from a position of stength, this is a solid tactic. However, make sure that you put them into situations where that doesn't work. Instead of all the monsters blindly running after the PCs, then have at least one of the smart ones go alert the BBEG, then when they come back the next day they find that the areas have been restocked stronger encounters.
Bloodtide_the_Red 09-11-05, 11:33 PM	1) The Cleric/Sorcerer, Kudro, has a magical item I let him buy, but very very deeply regret it. It is the Ring of Dragonshape from the Draconomicon...Pretty much he can turn into a dragon for 1 hour a day... Well, 'pretty much' is not exactly the same as 'real'. Note that the Ring of Dragonshape only gives you the abilites you'd get from Polymorphing. Basicaly, you just get the dragon shape and physical attacks...you do not get supernatural attacks, like the dragons breath weapon or spell resistance. Check out the spell Polymorph for what you get and don't get. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) They want to rest every other encounter. This is a problem with lots of groups. Players hate having weak characters, and after one fight they will use up a good chunk of thier stuff for that day. Then it's 'no fun' to play for them. Soultion 1-set up time limits in game. The Dark Army will attack at mindnight on the first day of the year, just three days away. That gives the characters only three days to find the lost holy water fountain, they can't stop and rest after every fight. They can't rest all the time and meet the deadline. Soultion 2-move game time. Like above, have the world move around the players. The city of FreePort has 'free potion day' on the 15th, if the players stop and rest after the bandit attack, they miss the free potions Soultion 3-Reactions. So the group attacks a castle, killing the gate guards, then run off to hide. When they come back the next day...woah, look the gate guard is doubled. And they are 'on alert', and they are willing to spend a bit more on defence too(they hired a cleric to cast Desecrate, for example). You also have the hunting parties 'go find the fools that attacked us'. Soultion 4-the safe spot. To rest they need a spot where they won't be bothered. They are not likely to find that on the 9th level of the dungeon of Doom. Even if they hold up somewhere, the bad creatures will find them before long. They won't get much rest being attacked every hour, even if it's just little ones...six kobold slingers ruin that whole hour of rest. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) Everytime I try to create encounters where they can't do either of the above, they just flee, and give up on the encounter. Nothing wrong there, let them run. Just toss in the results from above, 'well you ran from the fight, so the town is destroied', ect. --- He argues with me over every single rule. During a game I don't let the players argue or look up stuff. This slows the game down way too much. And even if they can find the rule, they don't know the whole picture anyway. Ex: They try to cast charm person on a Xill and say it 'should' work because it's a 'humanoid' creature. During a game I will never stop and say 'it's and outsider', just let them guess why it did not work. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4.Also, he will forget something, but then later after the consequence has already happened, he tries to change it by saying he forgot whatever. Ex: They are fighting, and he is attacked. He gets hit for something like 44 dmg by this huge guy. Then, one round later, he remembers that he had his Ring of Protection +1 on. It would have missed had he had 1 more AC. I say that it's too bad, he forgot and it's over. He says "Well I was wearing it when it happened, so in game it automatically applies." Well, you should have an updated character sheet for each player. Ask them before the game starts if anything has changed or if they want to change things. That way you know everything about the character. And if they change anything it must be noted. If you have to, make a long with a date and time code. 'June 1st, 5:30 Bob takes off his ring of jumpping and puts on his ring of protection' Though in any case, if a player forgets something..that's too bad.. Now note as DM you need to stay on top of things. Ex:You should know the bad guys sleep spell does not effect the elf, without the player saying so. now if the wizard forgets to cast mage armor before combat starts, that's all on him. BT
Surprise 09-12-05, 12:12 AM	Hey Ryan, If I were you, I would do the following (might not be the best/smartest thing to do, but...eh...) 1) Send in a group (a thief, a bard, a cleric and a wizard). The wizard should be able to detect the alarm set up and either the cleric and wizard can dispel it. The cleric then casts silence on the thief, and both the bard and thief sneak in to steal the ring off Kudro. If anyone keeps watch, have the bard fascinate/enchant/distract the watch while thief does his work. If you need in game reasons for this scenario, well the ring seems to be a powerful magic item and what wizard wouldn't want to study/keep such an item? The wizard then hired the cleric to divine where the players were, and hired the bard and thief to commit the deed. If Kudro complains, point out that he used that ring very liberally and caught the attention of "powerful beings that were intrigued by a flying dragon)." 2) I don't see the problem here. If that's what they decide to do then fine. As said above, dispels are fun. 3) If your players want to run away from the encounter you have two options. One-the encounter people/monster give up and the players are NOT rewarded with any EXP. Two-they pursue and force the party to fight. I applaud your players for using tactics that seem to aid them. Spellcasters are very good at negating the "hit and run tactic" (ie. Expeditious Retreat, Haste or Slow) if you feel you need/want to negate it. As to your cleric who interrupts game time, I would suggest that you do two things. First, at the very beginning of your next session, you need to introduce a house rule regarding role-play: "To speed along play time, you as players should always be prepared to provide your correct AC, abilities, saves and/or anything else that I might ask of you during combat. There will be no retro-active rolling either. Be prepared to correctly add your attack bonus, reflex save, etc. when the time is apporpriate. If you forget a particular modifer, after the deed has passed, the only person to blame is yourself for your inability to add. Also, I as the DM have the last say on everything. I am willing to allow a debate on a particular obscure rule I am not familiar with if you present a valid arguement against my initial ruling. Other than that, no other interuptions is acceptable." Lastly, you need to enforce this rule and constantly remind this cleric if he begins interrupting again. Players are amazing at forgetting rules they dislike, but are eerily accurate at reciting rules that benefit themselves. Good luck! -Surprise
VerinBlod 09-12-05, 05:01 AM	Tough problems! 1) As others said the ring functions like polymorph. So look up the spell and see what he can and cannot do with it. 2) Well it's hard resting when they are time constraint or when the bad guys are coming for them. ;) So attack them where it hurts. If they think they can rest in a dungeon let the BBEG send out his minions to attack them. You might even send the BBEG himself in to deal with this thread in his lair. Even if they retreat to a save spot the opposition can learn a great deal about the party's strengths and weaknesses. So use that to your advantage. 3) Your biggest problem lies with your cleric player. The best thing to do is to install a rule that if someone has a problem with one of your rulings he can voice them during a break or after the game. It's tough for them but those interruptions can really slow things down. Another option could be a system with red cards or interruption cards. Everyone in this system is entitled to interrupt gameplay once or twice per game night to discuss a rule for a set amount of time. After the discussion you make your ruling and everyone has to stick with it. Never played with this system myself but have heard that it works. Might be something you want to try. Hope this helps and good luck!
MarkB 09-12-05, 05:54 AM	1) The Cleric/Sorcerer, Kudro, has a magical item I let him buy, but very very deeply regret it. It is the Ring of Dragonshape from the Draconomicon... Pretty much he can turn into a dragon for 1 hr/day. Every time they are losing he turns into a dragon and owns everything. Big bad guy? Poof. Dragon burns him black. Any sort of terrain obstacle/barrier? Poof. Dragon, everyone gets on his back and he flies over it... It's hard to make any challenges for the players. I'm not the only one aggravated by this. The other three players all get mad at him when he does it because they want to get part of the action too, not just him owning everything. If he bought the item legitimately, and has appropriate wealth for his level, then he's earned it. As mentioned by others, know the effect's limitations, but if he's playing within those limitations, live with it. Characters' options for getting around difficulties increase as they level up, and the DM has to adjust his game to account for this. Just as a note, one of the draconic qualities your player won't acquire is Spell Resistance, and dragons have lousy Touch AC. A warlock or a spellcaster with ranged touch spells could make things very unpleasant for the character. 2) They want to rest every other encounter. They fight and if anyone gets hurt they want to sleep to get spells and health back. I tell the cleric(who is the one who usually wants to sleep) "Why don't you use healing spells?" and he just says it will waste a spell for the day. I have things come while they sleep, but the Ranger always sets up an alarm spell, so they are ready when it arrives. Bear in mind that Clerics, in particular, can only prepare their spells at a set time each day. If they rest to recover spells after one encounter, that's 24 hours gone. Any time constraint at all will make that option non-viable.
Nom 09-12-05, 07:36 AM	So pretty much all the problems lie on one player. I don't wanna like, kick him out though, he's my good friend. I really don't know what to do...(1) talk to him politely. Particularly about the rules lawyering. Tell him that in your opinion the flow of the game is more important than getting everything right, and you'd appreciate it if he'd let you worry about the rules and just go with the flow. (2) If things don't improve, talk to the other players. If they agree with you, well and good, but it might be just you that has an issue. (3) If everyone is getting annoyed, perhaps it is time to set things out plainly. If he is your friend, then I assume there are other things you do together too. Tell him that he is making the game less fun for everyone, and that if he continues to do so you'll stop inviting him for a while, since he obviously doesn't enjoy the style of game you are playing.
eudas 09-12-05, 10:48 AM	speaking as a rules lawyer... it's really really hard to let things go that you *know* are wrong! :) eudas
Phrennzy 09-12-05, 10:59 AM	1) It is the Ring of Dragonshape from the Draconomicon. Pretty much he can turn into a dragon for 1 hr/day. Every time they are losing he turns into a dragon and owns everything. Big bad guy? Poof. Dragon burns him black. Any sort of terrain obstacle/barrier? Poof. Dragon, everyone gets on his back and he flies over it... It's hard to make any challenges for the players. I'm not the only one aggravated by this. The other three players all get mad at him when he does it because they want to get part of the action too, not just him owning everything. Don't take the item away. Work around it. First, check in to make sure he can use all the abilities the dragon can. Second, is it a set type of dragon? Can he turn into just a red dragon, or any color? If it's just a certain color, use a lot of enemies that are resistant/immune to that energy. Third, It's only one hour. Pay attention to when he uses it and for how long. Fourth, any BBEG is going to be ready for polymoprhing/shapechanging magic in any D&D world. Will dispell Magic knock him back to cleric form? 2) They want to rest every other encounter. I have things come while they sleep, but the Ranger always sets up an alarm spell, so they are ready when it arrives. Do the enemies ever pursue the party? Do the enemies ever set traps for the returning party? If the PC's enter a dungeon and hack apart the guards, and then leave, the guards boss is going to double the guard as well as add traps and such, and maybe send out scouts. As for being attacked in the night, spell caster need sleep. Try harassing them instead of attacking them. The villians creep up to the party camp and launch a volley of arrows at them, then run back into the woods, in various directions, possibly leading any who follow into traps. Pay attention to who can and cannot see unaided in the dark. 3) Everytime I try to create encounters where they can't do either of the above, they just flee, and give up on the encounter. Or they try to hide and attack from there. Set up fights where they can't flee. Give them a mission with a time line. The tower only appears during the full moon. If the party can't get in, grab the magical shackles, and flee while the moon is full, the bad guys succeed in summoning their demon to raze the countryside. There are repercussions for fleeing. You have to beat that into them. Also, the cleric always interupts me when I try to do anything, trying to counteract it by looking up rules. I know what I'm doing is right, but he always slows the game way down to double check every thing I do. He argues with me over every single rule. Also, he will forget something, but then later after the consequence has already happened, he tries to change it by saying he forgot whatever. Ex: They are fighting, and he is attacked. He gets hit for something like 44 dmg by this huge guy. Then, one round later, he remembers that he had his Ring of Protection +1 on. It would have missed had he had 1 more AC. I say that it's too bad, he forgot and it's over. He says "Well I was wearing it when it happened, so in game it automatically applies." Here's the problem. How is he slowing the game up by looking up rules? This is where you have to lay down the law. "I'm not arguing with you over this - we can discuss it afterwards." That's my play on my rulings. I'll listen - briefly - during play, and then rule. And that's how it goes. Further debate can wait. I also make rulings with the understanding that it may not exactly work like that the next time the situation comes up, as we will discuss the situation in more detail at a later date. But for now... I also lean towards the players in most situations. They want to have fun, and I want to have fun. So when in doubt, let them have it. Now, if it's a known rule, then don't just give it to them. As for the "Well I was wearing it when it happened, so in game it automatically applies." - No. If it meant the death of the character, I'd let it go, but otherwise, no. He needs to pay better attention to his character stats. I've had players forget that +1 from Bless, and they remember after the next person has already gone. I tell them too bad - remember it next time. I'll prompt them with the "Did you remember Bless?" on their next turn - not being crappy, just helpful. So pretty much all the problems lie on one player. I don't wanna like, kick him out though, he's my good friend. I really don't know what to do... I would be very thankful for any help from more experienced DMs. Thanks, Ryan Ryan, being DM requires using your authority. Don't get high and mighty and go crazy, but put your foot down. Rules aren't open for lengthy debate during the game. We can discuss it after. Simple. No do-overs, no rewinds - make sure you have all your bonuses accounted when it's your turn.
jasper 09-12-05, 11:03 AM	On forgotten magic items etc. I have a dm sheet which list the pc name, race, hp, various acs etc. And at the bottom a chart which list the pc name and most magic items. Shoot me a pm and I send to you.
Illion the Red 09-12-05, 11:35 AM	Just stick the party in a 10'x10' corridor and then attack. Player: "I use my ring to turn into a dragon." DM: "OK, you expand to dragon-size. Your dragon form is biger than the corridor. Everyone else make reflex saves or be crushed and pinned by the dragon. Oh, and you are pinned in the hallway in dragonform. The rogue you were chasing hits you with a brutal stroke to your head which is wedged in the corridor and immobile. Make a fortitude save please..." Player: "No, you can't do...(rifling through pages)" DM: "Sorry, but we don't have time for you to look things up right now. Make your fortitude save."
Psychoticpsymon 09-12-05, 12:01 PM	I can see this being a problem, but even as a new DM I'd like to lend something to it... 1) CQC. Close Quarters Combat. You enter a cave. It is large enough to fit 2 men walking abreast. It is seven feet tall. Gear a bunch of quests or situations towards that, than occasionally allow them other adventures until the ring begins to be useless. Dispel magic, maybe? 2) Surrounded encounter. Have something small surround them so they have to fight. Or, talk to the cleric. Tell him that they are going to rest and no longer cast spells anyway, so why not use them anyway? 3) Ask your cleric friend if he's the DM. When he replies no, remind him that DM's word is law, because it is.
lordgeek22 09-12-05, 12:05 PM	Hear somesolutions that I either agree with or have something new to offer: 1) I agree that if you look at the rules for magic items like the ring, that you can usually find a way out of the problem or play against it like the 10ft x 10ft cooridor idea that was previously posted. But one particuler thing I like to do is to leave powerful magical items as things you find in the adventure and more simple mundane items the ones that can be purchased at your "average' magic shop. 2) If your players are worried about healing between encounters, just make simple healing items like potions an item you players find more on dead adversaries and in rooms. If fact I am little surprised that no one has mentioned this idea before me. 3) If your party wants to run and hide then let them but find ways to make thingsmore difficult whenever then do get back involved with that situation. The examples above work fine. I try to look at things like this as Cause and Effect thinking. Now for that rules lawyer of your, I for one don't enjoy those particular types of players as both Player and DM. Make it a house rule to discuss rules after the game or between breaks. Respectfully state that your are the DM and that they are the players. This is not an attempt to be mean or nasty as much as reminding the players as to their function in the game. You as the DM are the referee/director/etc. and they are the ones actually playing through the adventure. Now I think it's fine to look through the PHB during a session to check on rules but have them doing when it is not there turn to act that way the possibility of slowing down the gameplay will be reduced. But for sure, DON"T LET THEM WAX INTELLECTUAL ABOUT RULES IN THE MIDDLE OF GAMEPLAY. Make a house rule that says that if a problem comes up that you will try to solve the problem quickly in-game and dealwith it more in-depth outside of the game for the sake of not disrupting gameplay. If he forgets about special combat modifiers during play, well that stinks but if your style is to leave up to them then the player will have to learn to keep his eye on the ball.
Orcboss 09-12-05, 12:35 PM	1) The Cleric/Sorcerer, Kudro, has a magical item I let him buy, but very very deeply regret it. Tell him that. Tell him it was a mistake on your part to allow it and it needs to go. Tell him you appreciate his cooperation and work out some replacement(s). 2) They want to rest every other encounter. They fight and if anyone gets hurt they want to sleep to get spells and health back. Two good options. Put them on the clock. "Okay, you can camp for the night, but you'll only have two days to make the rest of the trip before the evil plot is carried out. You'll have to force march the last two days to even have a chance." Make them the prey. "Okay, you can camp for the night, but the Baron's men are on horseback and getting closer every minute." 3) Everytime I try to create encounters where they can't do either of the above, they just flee, and give up on the encounter. Or they try to hide and attack from there. It's hard for you to help if you're players are just being purposely lame. That may be harsh. Oh, well. Also, the cleric always interupts me when I try to do anything, trying to counteract it by looking up rules. This is a separate problem. Also, he will forget something, but then later after the consequence has already happened, he tries to change it by saying he forgot whatever. Tough. The players only have one character each to keep track of (usually). The DM has to keep track of everybody else in the world. If he doesn't care enough to clearly write out all of his bonuses so he can keep track of them, why should you?
Phrennzy 09-12-05, 12:59 PM	You could also have someone hear of this ring and offer the cleric 125%-150% of it's market value to buy it off of him. And if he refuses, the guy has his men try to take it by force. "I must have the ring!" "I'll get you, my pretty, and your little ring too!" "My preciousss..." I mean, who wouldn't want a ring like that? It rocks!
Psychoticpsymon 09-12-05, 01:10 PM	Phrenzies idea would work as long as the guy has used up the hour-long change period already
Arrowhen 09-12-05, 01:29 PM	*snort* I love it. The rules-lawyer who doesn't know his own character's AC. That's poetic justice right there.
Murrdox 09-12-05, 01:32 PM	If the party is facing a BBEG type who has HEARD of the party and this character that has the ability to transform into the Dragon, it's pretty reasonable to assume that this BBEG might want to DO something about that before this character ends up on his doorstep. Mort's Disjunction. 'nuff said. BBEG sends a wizard assassin after the group, unless the BBEG is a wizard himself. Make it part of the plot that the ring gets destroyed, and don't make it OBVIOUS that you're doing it purposefully to get rid of the ring. Give the player another magical item of more reasonable power later on that session, or next gaming session. As for that player who "forgets" his armor class and such... don't stand for that crap when he says it applies and he just "forgot" about it. If he forgot his stats, that is HIS problem. He can't expect to constantly rewind the battles because he can't keep his character straight. You tell him that YOU are the DM, and you say that he has to keep the hit, he doesn't get to just write it off, and to be more careful next time.
Illion the Red 09-12-05, 01:41 PM	Also, he will forget something, but then later after the consequence has already happened, he tries to change it by saying he forgot whatever. Ex: They are fighting, and he is attacked. He gets hit for something like 44 dmg by this huge guy. Then, one round later, he remembers that he had his Ring of Protection +1 on. It would have missed had he had 1 more AC. I say that it's too bad, he forgot and it's over. He says "Well I was wearing it when it happened, so in game it automatically applies." Respond to this with the "Oh, right. I forgot Huge Guy had a level of Barbarian as well. He would have been raging...so make that 48 points of damage and since he would have had 20 extra hitpoints while raging, he would have gotten another round of attacks on you...let's see rolling his attacks, he hit you three times for a total of 72 hps. Hmmm...that would kill you outright and his cleave on poor Tom over there would have hit. Tom, take another 26. NOW...you don't REALLY want to go back and correct that, do you?"
halbarad_666 09-12-05, 01:50 PM	I have a similar problem with my party as you do with the ring, i have a lvl 5 wizard with a fire staff, the actual person is a bit of a annoying git who very few people like and slightly powergamerish so i decided that i would curse the staff so he cant let it off his person or he would suffer some unknown consequences ( i said loads of damage to scare him, but i havent worked out what i will do yet), so simply make it cursed or give it charges. if he says that the description doesnt say that then say it is unlikely he will find exactly the same item but something similar produced by a lesser mage and therefore it has started weakening. if you want to give the party a real challenge use the wild magic rules from forgotten realms and watch as his polymorph spell goes completely haywire. i have a few players who like to give me new rules to use for combat but they suggest them at the start of the session and they are usually things we wouldnt use, i think it shows that they are considering the environments they fight in and find new ways to use them to their advantage. however people going through the book in the middle of combat is not needed, tell him to stop and see you at the end of session if he has queries or just drop random traps on the PC when he reaches a certain point, even if someone else walks past first.
Apathy Man 09-12-05, 02:15 PM	Variety is the spice of life. When I design adventures for my players I intentionally create encounters to allow the PC's to shine as well as to challenge them. Sometimes it even works. It's a balancing act. Sometimes they DESTROY the enemy other times it is a little tougher. Three out of four PC's have cohorts and they use alot of summonings. For me the fun and challenge is not killing pc's but to give them a good fight that is not one sided either way. One tactic is to use waves if they like to rest after every fight. Last night was a great example. The party came upon what appeared to be a slave wagon in a large tunnel in the caravan in the underdark. Grimlock bodies strewn around (4 of them). As they approched they were hit with a mass ectoplasmic cacoon. Half the party was trapped in goo. The grimlocks then got up with their man catchers to incapcitate the rest of the party. A round or 2 later a pair of umberhulks burst through the wall. The cleric uses fear on the grimlocks and the alienist summons "something", I don't remember what, both of which get dispeled by some as yet unseen advasary that has yet to join the fray. After most of the grimlocks go down and 1 uberhulk the sorcerer starts getting hit by ego whips from another unseen assailant. The mindflayer finally reveals himself and his sheild guardian and creates an astral construct to grapple the pc's and they finally realize the last hidden assailant was a intelect devourer down a side tunnel. It came down to the Cleric and the mind flayer in melee. Everyone else either stuck in goo of stuned by mind blasts. The PC's were victorious and nobody died. The mind flayer was CR 12 and all his lackeys were CR 8 each. The pc's were level 10 plus cohorts and lots of summoned creatures. The battle exhausted just about everybody, but it came in waves in 1 long battle where the slavers were trying to capture not kill. The PC's were facing a variety of tactics and abilities that worked on concert. They couldn't focus on just 1 thing and rip it to shreds. I've done this type of thing before and it usually works well. Sometimes I will throw 1 big, powerful creature at the party. I find that these tend to go down fast but will usually take a PC with them. I also will use lots of low level monsters to horde the pc's. This give them a chance to flex their muscles and decimate some stuff, but I find the variety works best. I am of the doritoes school of thought. Crunch all you want, I'll make more. As for rules lawyering, if I am wrong on a ruling and someone can show me proof fairly quickly I have no problem admitting I am wrong. If there is still confusion I will make a ruling and then during the week consult all the books and srd for examples and relevant rules and at the next session inform everyone what I have decided. On more than 1 occasion I have reversed my own rulings after doing research. Never be afraid to admit you've made a mistake and be fair. As for remembering something after the fact, once we move on to the next person what's done is done. I am notorious for forgeting displacement and my players like it that way.
Skyscraper 09-12-05, 02:26 PM	I have faced the situation you are in. Concerning the ring, i think that the idea of providing limited space encounters (e.g. 10' wide and high corridors) brought about several posters are good, but the problem is that you should not have to restrict your game to fights in small corridors all the time because of that ring. That, and you won't be able to always confine the PCs in 10 feet corridors. I was DM in a campaign that lasted 10 years, and i've made two mistakes concerning objects (well maybe more, but in my eyes two that i regretted). The first one concerned an artifact, an axe that had several magical abilities including augmented damage (3-18 DMG), and that ended up being wielded by a player that also became equipped afterwards with a girdle of giant strength and gauntlets of ogre power. Under the 1st Ed. AD&D rules, all those bonuses stacked, so the guy ended up doing much more damage than all other players and he was consequently the centerpiece of any combat, to the detriment of group fun. I finally decided to reduce his damage to normal battle axe damage of 1-8, and the decision was severely critisized by this player. This was a mistake, and i would not recommend that you ask your player to simply forget about the ring since giving it to him was a mistake. I have regretted changing my own mistake like i did. It corrected the problem, but i lost some credibility as a DM on that call. My second mistake concerned a mirror of mental prowess, that allows you to scry anyone like a crystal ball would, and also to open a gate between where you stand and the place you are seeing in the mirror (i havent looked up the description under Ed. 3.5, but i assume it's similar). This object allowed the PCs to move their army about, pop up in the middle of the BBEG's den with soldiers and clerics and lay all sorts of hell everywhere. I had loads of trouble circumventing this object. At first, i tried the solution of providing anti-scrying and/or anti-teleport lairs for my bad guys, but that proved half-useful at best since eventually, the PCs will find a way around this (wait until the guy comes out, etc...) After a while of overuse of the mirror, i finally let the PCs know through a NPC that the mirror's existence had been learned by the bad guys' faction (due to said overuse), but they continued to use it. Eventually, it got stolen by an expert wizard/thief who dispelled the magic protection on it and brought it to the bad guys. NPCs allied to the PCs decided to retrieve the mirror, but it had been fixed with sovereign glue so they disintegrated the mirror to prevent the bad guys from using it (the ally NPCs were in the middle of the bad guys' den, so they had to make a split second decision when they realized that they couldn't move the mirror). I didn't get the PCs to retrieve the mirror, since i obviously didn't want them to use it again. The latter worked very well, since it fit into the story. The object (the mirror in this case) was very powerful and was used often, so it is very realistic that it should attract some interest from others. That they deploy resources to acquire it appeared very normal. So my suggestion to you is to get some bad guys to organize a theft of the ring, either in itself or through abduction of the PC that wears it. If the party manages to save the PC, maybe the loss of the ring won't look so bad to them. As for the rules lawyer... good luck! I had a rules lawyer in my 10-year campaign, and to be entirely frank, he was a pain all along :) He's a good friend, and mostly he was OK when gaming, but every so often he would be very painful to play with. The problem can be summarized according to Eudas' reply to your question in a previous post, in which he states "as a rules lawyer, the problem i see is that i am always right" (more or less). And sometimes rules lawyers are right, as anyone else. The gist of the problem is that they cannot just let go and accept the way anyone else as a DM would decide on how to resolve a particular situation if they believe their solution is better. And only through lengthy argumentation can you get your point through. Generally speaking, i know the rules very, very well, and honestly my arguments were mostly successful, but it took some energy and patience to get there. I tried saying "i'm DM, this is the way it goes", this does not work. This player i delt with is implicated in the game, and he'll want to discuss any rule or adjudication that he doesn't entirely agree with, thinking he is right about it. Since it is a good friend, the solution of throwing him out of the game was out of the question entirely. The only solution i found that partly worked, was to discuss this personality trait of his out of the game. "Listen, bud, you're a good friend, but there is this one thing that we need to discuss. I'm far from perfect and all, but i need to talk to you about this, because we can't go on like this..." Generally speaking, my impression is that the personality trait that yields arguing on the rules, is deeply rooted in people, and they need to work on that very hard to change it. But as i appreciate that people provide their suggestions on how i should improve my own style or personality, i hope and think that true friends will in time come to appreciate constructive critisism from others too. In the case of my friend, it took me quite some time to talk to him about it, and he was very receptive and has tried to change since (but he's at best half-successful). Just chose a good moment to do it, DO NOT do it in the heat of an argument. Sky
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 09-12-05, 03:53 PM	As for the dragon ring....Beholders, high level mages, and high level clerics....all capable of dispelling magic or producing anti-magic effects. Or if you're really mean....have BBEG with Disjunction as a readied action when they enter the room....I mean, I would do the same as a PC if I knew the BBEG was going to morph into something uber-nasty when I walked in the door. As for the resting every other encounter, as many have previously stated...Clerics must pray at certain times of day for spells...so rest means 20+ hours down the tubes, and interupted rest equals no renwal of spells for that day...for any spellcaster. As for the Alarm spell...anything that's ethereal or astral won't set it off until it becomes material again....so, ghosts won't get noticed. :smirk: Another way around it is to use spellcasters polymorphed into flies, read the spell description, it says "any Tiny or larger creature entering the area"... As for the interupting rules-lawyer. be sure to know every last detail of a rule or situation before you use it. When he voices his opinion on the matter, calmly and politely tell him you've already reviewed the scenario pre-game and have come up with your interpretation of the rules and should he be un-happy with that, he can discuss it after the session with you. Should he actually stick around, explain your position and stick to your guns on it. Illion the Red has the best idea I've ever heard regarding the "Ex Post Facto Remembrance of Things"...If the player "remembers" suddenly he forgot something, do it as well. Make him not want to bring it up later. It will shut him up at the time and keep him on his toes to keep it in mind in later combats.
Cyric 09-12-05, 05:17 PM	This is just kind of expounding on what someone said earlier. It's been awhile since I've used that ring in a campaign, but I beleive that it restricts the dragon type based on alignment and this it also restricts the age category to juvenile or something. So, take a dragon one or two categories older that has heard of what this cleric is doing and has decided that he's giving dragons a bad name (or whatever). This dragon has decided to take the ring. Have it polymorphed into something normally manageable for the party. When the party is losing the battle and the cleric uses his ring then the true dragon can morph back to his true form and open a can on the cleric, he doesn't even have to kill him or the party, just teach him not to play with fire. The dragon takes the ring and destroys it. If the encounter happens in the open, the dragon's flying will negate the party running away. Maybe the dragon demands the ring to be given to him. Maybe the ring was made with a scale or claw (don't remember what it takes) that came from the dragon and he wants it back. Sorry, I'll stop rambling now.
Duration_10_Rounds 09-12-05, 05:29 PM	Have a vengfull ex foe who lived to tell the tale send an assasin after him, the assasin blasts him with flesh to stone spells from hiding (top floor window of a building as he walks down the main drag in a small town should do niceley, spell sniping :) ) until one sticks. Cleave his hand off (the one with the ring) and jam a rolled up a stone to flesh scroll in the now stoned clerics gaping mouth. Leave a Soften Earth and Stone scroll under a rock at his feat with "Remember how this could have gone" writen on the back. Before that game commences say to the group: "New rule to speed up game play: Only im allowed rule books at the table." Blame the character for using the powerful item in far to obvious ways that drew far to much attention to himself, then laugh like so: "Muhahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha"
revnk 09-12-05, 05:36 PM	Lots of good suggestions here. Here's my $.02: #1 $ #2: So it looked like a Ring of Dragonshape, but seemed a little more powerful because it was giving the character breath weapons (by mistake, but we're retconning it into something else). I'm thinking this sounds like an artifact, perhaps, a small item of great repute that hasn't been recognized as such: much like the ring in a certain classic tale that looked like plain gold and merely seemed to be a Ring of Invisibility until it started preying on a certain halfling's mind and a certain high-level Sorcerer/Cleric/Ranger tossed into the fireplace, revealing hidden runes.... So your cleric's ring is more dangerous than it appears. Shadowy assassins want it, mysterious purchasers claim it. And as things get a little crazy, the dreams and visions start; is that a whispered voice from the ring as the cleric's ear lies on his hand while he's trying to sleep? So persistent--he's not getting sleep at all, anymore, he's feeling fatigue penalties and not recovering hit points... or, perhaps he's very well rested, but when the ranger woke up in the middle of the night, where was the cleric, if not in his blankets? And now, as rumors rise from the north/east/west/south, rumors of war, rumors of suddenly-abandoned villages, rumors of increased activity by monsters, omens and portents--now, when the cleric changes, the change lasts a little longer than an hour, doesn't it? Now when he changes back, he still has a strange hunger nagging at him--an urge to slaughter, or to fly, or to go into a cave, or to sleep, or to travel to a place he doesn't know the name of. Nothing that forces him to do anything, mind you, we're talking about pressure, not railroading. Just sly hints. "Your character is feeling ravenous" or "your character is feeling drained and is going to take a fatigue penalty for a little while" or "are you sure you want to turn into back into a human now? I know it's been an hour, but the effect isn't wearing off and I think a few more minutes would be alright... oh, why not a few more..." or "I know you're not in combat, but something is telling you that you could probably turn into a dragon one more time today, just to fly around if you wanted." Or maybe there's a little rail there, enough to be scary: "Strange--you're not changing back." And maybe, oh maybe, maybe the dragon form he starts taking is just a little wrong... a little less living... or not quite a color that's ever been seen before... or.... And this is when the chase starts. And there's a push, here, which some might call railroading, true. Just to be warned. Often the difference between a rail and a push is simply finesse. But to solve your sleep problem: there's nothing that says that a DM has to let his characters sleep, or sleep all night, or sleep all at once, or sleep well. Things want the ring. The ring wants something, too, perhaps. The nights aren't what they used to be. And there's no point in casting Alarm, or even in everyone getting their bedrolls out, if you're just going to have to move in a little while. The trick here is to balance it--give PCs a chance to rest enough for spells or for a few hp, but never really let up the chase.... At least that's how I'd do it. :plotting: Which maybe would suck or could be improved on, but at least it's fodder for thought. #3 There's not an in-game solution. He's rules-lawyering like a fiend. If he's a friend, talk to him alone at some point--over lunch, or on the way to a movie or something without the rest of the group around--and patiently tell him you're not trying to tick him off, but he's dragging the game down, etc., and he needs to lay off a little. And if he doesn't get it, you need to simply tell him that you're now applying Rule One--you're the ref--and while you'll listen to his advice and comments between sessions, in game the rules are what you say and you'll do your best to always be fair. It's not a great solution, but it's about the only thing you can do unless he leaves the group, which is his option if he doesn't like your DMing. Good luck.
spectralphoenix 09-12-05, 06:23 PM	Besides the breath weapon issues (I don't have the Draconomicon so I'll take the other posters word for it,) problem 1 is a side effect of problem 2. Items with a set number of uses/day are far more powerful when the party can keep resting and using the item in every encounter. Spellcasters work the same way; someone else started a thread about how their wizard and cleric were dominating the game. I would say the best solution is a timed quest. Pretty much any adventure with the words "and in three days, the BBEG is going to summon a demon and destroy the village!" will work. This also takes care of the PC's running away, since they won't be able to waste time. As for the rules lawyer, talk to him OOC. If you can't get him to come around, simply don't let him get away with retconning his mistakes.
Bruunwald 09-12-05, 07:15 PM	I just skimmed all these responses, but one other thing worth mentioning about problem #2 is the issue of armor versus fatigue. You say the ranger's spell is alerting everyone. Great. But also remember that they need to get their armor back on, if they have taken it off. Or, if they do not remove it when they sleep, they will suffer fatigue the next day. After getting hacked up for having no armor, and/or dragging twice as badly the following day for sleeping in it a few times, the party will probably decide that continuing until they really have to rest is a better use of their time.
BigBigSpiritmonger 09-13-05, 12:05 AM	Seriously, thanks everyone! There was a ton of good responses... Revnk, I really like your idea. I'm not going to have it be like "searching" like an intelligent item, but i like the whole "Thought it was a Ring of Dragonshape, but it's really more" thing. I'll try all this stuff out next session (Sunday), and I'll tell the results. Thanks a ton everyone, Ryan